Guys:

I hear references here all the time to the "high shoulder shot". What is this?? Said to be instantly lethal and deer "drop in their tracks". Affects Brachial Plexus??

I would like to use it this season from one particular stand. What is the aiming point on the shoulder to have best effect??

Sorry if this has been discussed recently, hard to keep up with all the things going on this fall. THANKS.

NB

The point at the top of the shoulder. It takes out the central nervous system. It is always instant death especially if you are using Bergers.

NB,

This is the spot.


It will indeed fold them on the spot. If you do use this shot, the rear end falls first, then the rest of the deer.

If the rear end is not the first to give way, chamber another round as you may not have found your mark.

It's what I call a "withers" shot. Tends to get into the front of the back loins if a little too high, but as said above, it's bang-flop every time.

I use it as often as possible. SKane's dot marks the spot. A bit below gets the same results most of the time.

I missed low on the last buck I shot and he only went 25 yards but plowed brush the whole time. I shot a doe there a few years back and she hit the ground dead. Didn't even kick once.

So I'll weigh in. Couple years ago, shooting from a tree stand, deer quartering toward me. I shoot for the boiler room through the facing shoulder. Rifle is zeroed @ 200 so for this 60 yard shot the bullet hit about 3" high. Bang-flop. Hit dead-on the spine with instant death.

Fast-forward to this week. Muzzleloader season, pouring rain. I'm thinking there may be a lost blood trail due to the rain if I make a lung shot. Buck steps out across field offering a 100 yard shot. I aim for high shoulder. Bang-flop.
But then the deer struggled. He kept raising his head and digging with his front legs trying to get up. I reloaded and waited a couple minutes. The deer continued to struggle off and on and was clearly breathing but also clearly paralyzed in the rear. So I climbed down from the stand, walked across the field and shot it point blank into heart/lungs.

Upon butchering, I saw that I barely skimmed the bottom of the spine, not shattering it. I suppose the shock apparently severed or damaged the cord enough to put the deer down and paralyze, but not enough for instant death. I'm thinking another inch or two down and the deer could have run off with a non-lethal or slow death wound. Maybe that would put it into the lungs, dunno.

So I'm rethinking this high shoulder shot. I know many practice it and if hit at the right spot is instantly lethal. But I'm thinking maybe the margin for error higher or lower is too small.

At least for me @ 100 yards offhand with a muzzleloader.

I'm with you on this. Behind the shoulder and mid-body affords all kinds of wiggle room.

I know we have a lot of expert marksmen here that never miss - even on head shots , I'm just not one to leave those sorts of things to chance and am far from an expert marksmen. OMMV.

Woods hunter for the most part here. Many times in the past when I've hit deer in the boiler house just behind the shoulder I got to utilize my tracking skills.

If presented with a good profile shot and some time I'll try to remember to place a shot at the base of the neck where it meets the shoulder. That seems to flip'em like pancakes-DRT.

I am wondering the same thing.

What do ya'll think the margin of error is?

EXCELLENT! Great reply's guys, esp SKane and 1Deernut. Including a live picture plus necropsy results too.

Very helpful. Wishing all you guys the best in your deer season. Ours starts Sunday, the 15th (St Antlers Day)

NB

"I know we have a lot of expert marksmen here that never miss - even on head shots"

Trust me, I don't qualify as one of these. My favorite spots to hunt usually yield shots less than 70 yards, but many times opportunities only come along after sunset. If I'm contemplating neck shot its due to limited light, and geographical barriers near the area that will inhibit tracking should that animal take that route (swamp).

Morning hunts with plenty of buffer space, forget about it, boiler plate will most likely be my choice.

I still like to hold center vitals for the margin-of-error factor. A 30-50yd death run isn't so bad if it's not raining and there's an exit. Of course, stuff happens, even when things go right. Shot a deer practically broadside last week at 40yds with my 260 (130gr NAB). Tucked it tight behind the shoulder and it exited a few inches into the shoulder on the other side. Dang deer didn't bleed until it fell over, 40yds into the briars. I knew it was dead and just happened to see the glint of its eye when searching with a flashlight. Still, it stinks to bust thickets looking for a brown deer in the brown brush. Exit was dime sized and the vitals were wrecked, just didn't bleed..... it happens. Could happen again tomorrow and there might be blood everywhere. It's hunting......

I like the crease behind the shoulder.


Some drop, some run a short distance. I shoot a 35 wheeler with Barnes more times than not and a blood trail is easy to follow.

Exactly like SKane marked. If I have a solid rest on a still deer at less than long range it's my favorite shot. On a perfect shot it will bust the scapula (causing extra damage with the bone pieces), continue through the spine, then bust the far side. There is a fair amount of room for error with lots of room below and behind to catch the lungs. IMHO, The worst place to miss is forward of the shoulder and slightly high (missing the spine). Second worse place to miss is slightly below and slightly behind as you may miss the spine and be very high in the lung or possibly miss it(?)...less blood trail, etc...but it will still be a killing shot. Again, just my opinion and if stuff is moving/rushed/off hand I favor the area with the biggest margin of error.

I usually go for heart/lungs, but took a high shoulder shot at a buck that stopped behind trees/brush so that it was either head, neck or top of shoulder. Was using my 30/30 model 99 with iron sights, and went for the shoulder. Bang, flop - broke the spine.

I shot a button buck a little higher and just behind the shoulder, result was a bang-flop. Good thing as if he would have run he was headed for a very deep hollow. Even though he was a button buck it still would have been a chore to get him up out of there, instead we just backed the pick-up to where he lay and after field dressing one man could easily hadle loading him into the pick-up bed. We were back home had him skinned and quartered and were drinking our second cup of coffee just an hour and a half after leaving the house.

The "where to hit em" thread arises frequently and I always read every word of every entrant. When I began hunting big game (whitetails) in the Adirondacks about 1950 my Dad gave me some rules for killing deer.

1. Make sure there's hair above your sights. We were using iron sights.
2. NEVER, NEVER SHOOT AT A DEER! Always SHOOT AT A SPOT on the deer.
3. Put it in the pocket. A quarter/third of the way up behind the front shoulder.

Many an entry here has extolled the high shoulder shot and mentally I believe them. I've inadvertently shot high, hit there, and watched them drop in their tracks. My experience validates them. No question. That's the place to hit.

PROBLEM is; I habitually go for the pocket shot, every time. Last season I shot a nice buck about a hundred yards out. Shot him in the pocket. Shot two does. One about seventy yards out. Shot her in the pocket. The second doe was only about 25 yards out and I shot her in the neck. The neck shot was necessitated because she had her head down and stretched back so that her neck - covered the pocket.

Dad told me he shot his first deer the summer of 1915. He shot for the pocket because that's what his dad told him to do. He shot his last, a nice buck, in the pocket - 1987. I taught my three sons to shoot em in the pocket and my grandson is hearing stories about shooting em in the pocket.

Learn to shoot them in that high shoulder spot. It's deadly. It works. ME? After a hundred years of successful family experiences of shooting them in the pocket I'll probably ......

The only time I ever take that shot is if I want to anchor the deer where it stands due to terrain. In my opine and from experience it tears up not only the shoulder roast but can also mess up the front portion of the back loin. What a waist, just my opine.

Second exposed rib behind shoulder 1/3 up from chest ensures all meat is of good quality and the heart isn't messed up which is my favorite eating. You can see the shot placement in my Low Country Buck Deerah thread.

I have discussed this many times with fellow hunters.
IMO- It depends some on the caliber of your weapon. Also on the distance to the deer.

Personally I think about every caliber 30 and up are fine with the high shoulder. Most under 30 should take the shot behind the shoulder to avoid the large bone and get better penetration.

My usual deer rifle is a 30-06 shooting 150 grain and up ammo ( usually 150 ) I take the high shoulder shot 99 % of the time
With the exception being the need to take a sudden shot at an unknown distance over 200 yards. Then I aim for behind the shoulder so if I were to miss low it will result in a clean miss and not a broken leg and high chance to lose the deer.

I have shot around 60 deer using the high shoulder and all were DRT. Some don't even kick , they just go straight down on their chin. Sure you mess up a double hand full of meat but If I need more meat I shoot a doe.

My favorite shot is the first reasonable one, at the front end of the deer, that's offered. I guess I don't really have a "favorite".

I've made that high shoulder shot with everything from the 257 Roberts to the 300 Win Mag.In most cases bullets were Nosler Partitions, but have used some others as well.

Last three bucks I killed involved shoulder shots and two were instantly killed. The third sort of staggered/fell down hill. Cartridge was a 270 with 130 Nosler partitions which gave exits in all cases. They may still be going for all I know.

Using 140 NPT's from the 7/08,7x57,280,and 7 Rem Mag,have all worked well with complete penetration through shoulders. Have yet to recover one.

Last elk was with that shot,7 Rem Mag, 160 NPT. Collapsed immediately and rolled down the mountain. Bullet exited.

My favorite shot, especially if I want to get multiple deer. Drop them, and wait for the next one. The only thing to watch for is hitting a little high. You can just stun them, and they will get up and run. Usually for a LONG way. Err to the low side, and you may have to track, but you will kill the deer.I used a muzzleloader, and could shoot them there without a lot of meat loss. Have not used a centerfire on deer yet. Also had the rifle set up for a 100 yard zero, and most shots were only slightly over, to very close. I pretty much knew RIGHT where the bullet would go, within that range. Nice, easy, reliable shot.

I have to chime in and say that I am with Bob on this one. Deer are not hard to kill. I generally take the shot they give me, whether it be a neck shot, shoulder shot or a shot through the slats. I'm not even bashful about chest shots if that is all I have.

To stay on track with the OP though, the high shoulder shot is indeed deadly and quick. Even if one shoots the 243/6mm and 257 Roberts class of cartridges. (I can only speculate that the 30 calibers will work likewise.)

I only shoot to do the least damage to meat.

IF I were to see a once in a lifetime, I might be convinced to take a shot that did more damage to why I typically shoot them, the meat.

But I just shot the largest buck of my life and I waited almost 10 minutes to get the angle that clipped rib in, rib out and no major bones.

No surprise he ran a bit. Maybe 30 ish yards. But no big deal.

You rarely get a DRT with bow and I don't mind trailing, its part of the ticket for me.

Anotehr reason I avoid the shot is it has little room for error in 2 directions, leaving nasty flesh only wounds.

If you can hit that dot every time, just shoot em in the head....

Man....ya learn something new every day. I've never heard of this. I'd be afraid of getting a spine shot. I hate that because then they're down, but still alive with all of that adrenaline pumping through the meat.

A couple of weeks ago, I shot a 6 pt. dead center in the shoulder with a muzzle loader, only about 3" or 4" below the spot marked on SKane's picture. He ran about 50 yrds and piled up (in a giant green brier patch no less). He didn't go far, but I had to track him because I didn't see exactly where he went down. It was real thick in there. But I had a lot of blood and was easy.

I'm a bow hunter. I've had bad experiences sticking the arrow in the shoulder or duck paddle with no penetration. So I have a tendency to aim right behind the shoulder in the middle to get a double lunger.

Compare these pics. The red dot is exactly on the spine and both scapulas. That'll floor one every time. Slightly higher will badly injure the deer but it could still go a long ways. Slightly lower will clip the lungs which come all the way up to the spine. It will die but it might take a while as the lungs fill with blood.

I'm just now reading this thread. Thank You for posting this illustration of anatomy. The top (upper end) of the scapula is where the meat is the THINNEST, so there's less to damage.

That's my favorite shot when it's possible. Since 2012 I've been hunting private property that's surrounded on 3 sides by property that I can't hunt.

SO it's important to me to drop or stop deer from crossing a fence.

Otherwise I PREFER the ribs/lungs shot whether they run or not.

I have pics of some of the deer that I've used the Hi Shld shot and a few have been posted in this forum and 1 other. Here are only 2 pics and they illustrate why I like the shot.



This doe is laying facing a fence less than 40 yds. away.

Internal damage - minimal



Jerry

Internal damage minimal? Take a better look at the spine. The spinal cord has to be hashed.

Damn, somebody was in a hurry to get the antlers off, and look at the bullet hole. miles

Correct -

I 'should' have said MEAT instead of internal.

I didn't lose a double handful of meat.

It works.

Jerry

An ADDENDUM -

I'm stating my experience with this shot. I recommend that others TRY it, IF they can confidently hit the spot.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.


Jerry

What's going on adrenaline wise when a double lunged deer is running around for a while?

tag

I double lunged an eight point buck with a 225 grain Sierra bullet from my .35 Whelen, he went about 30 yards leaving a large blood trail to either side. If there was any adrenaline involved in his death run it did not have any effect on the quality of the venison.

My thoughts and experience exactly. I would add that I do not carry a rifle to field that I do not have confidence in a less than perfect broadside offering as well. I've killed plenty with angling shots. No problem, given good bullets in most cartridges.

those poor blade roasts. possibly my favorite part of a deer to eat.

It's like flipping off a switch.

I love it.

twofish

I shot four of them with a muzzle loader in 2014 that I wanted dead in their tracks. Used Barnes T-EZ 250 grain bullets loaded down some to be a little quieter. All four hit the ground dead and didn't move.

I have shot a few high shoulder with cup and core bullets and that will cost you some meat in the shoulder. The Barnes have yet to destroy any amount of meat worth talking about in the last ten years. The old cup and core Barnes did though. Never had a deer move after a high shoulder shot.

I hate wasting meat since I shoot for my table or someone else's when I am reducing a population like the last couple of years at home. I will shoot deer just below the skull to clip the brain stem with an accurate rifle to preserve meat, but I don't do that with a muzzle loader because you just don't know if you'll get a slightly delayed ignition.

not instant death as many believe, though it looks like it. it shocks the CNS dropping the deer, and because of the vitals/arteries in the area the deer quickly succumbs before it can move. It does take a minute or two to expire, but most of the time people aren't to the deer yet. Somewhat of a moot point I know, but one worth mentioning.

high shoulder shots are fine, I personally prefer a simple shot to the boiler room, rarely do they go far and often enough I've seen them tip over either on the spot or within a few yards. Of course some of that is credited to using plenty of gun with my ruger .243

I really don't recall ever missing a head shot. But then again mine are all from rests of one type or another, bipod at a minimum.....

The spine shot just destroys to much meat for my tastes and if you err, you ain't in the biggest target spot of all.

RE Snubby saying his shot just touched the bottom of the spine, thats where a LARGE artery is and will bleed em out super fast. Never seen a shot just under the spine where they made it far or lived long. inch under the spine is another thing though.

I shot this blacktail in Oct. High shoulder shot. 25-06. Dropped right on the spot. Bullet caught the top 1 inch of the shoulder blades. He screamed like I've neer heard one scream. Was about 150 yards from me and I had to finish him when I got there. I don't think I ruined a pound of meat.

[/url]102_2122 by Brant Lindquist, on Flickr[/img]

168g Nosler ballistic tip entry wound - looks almost like an exit wound. I wouldn't want to hit any higher with this particular load as this shot jellied up the front of the backstrap as it was.

Shot hit about an inch high of where I was aimed, hit him right at 190 yards.

He went less than 30 yards.

Sometimes high shoulder is all you got as animals move through screening cover. Happened to me this year and has happened before.

Most deer are not killed at any great distance,so impact velocities are still high.Thin jacketed bullets are certainly effective,but tougher bullets of the same weight reduce the chances/amount of bloodshot meat and kill just as well.

Not much. Typically with a double lunger with a broadhead, they only run as far as they can in about 15 seconds. If you get'em good, that's about how long it takes.

The high shoulder shot seems to be ingrained into my 8yo as both of his deer this year were shot that way. I like the instant drop for a kiddo. Mine this year was pure spine shot as that's all I could see as it was moving away. Turned the lights out quick enough. My 5yo approved...

I generally prefer ribs shots to save as much meat as possible, but if there might be problems if a deer runs some before dropping (such as a property line or deep Missouri Breaks draw) then I prefer the high shoulder. Don't use it often but with the right bullet it doesn't ruin all that much meat.

Must add, however, that while certain bullets do tend to ruin less meat, I've seen all sorts of contradictions over the years. Last fall my wife shot a medium-size mule deer buck very carefully right behind the shoulder, about 1/3 of the way up, with a 100-grain TTSX from a .257 Roberts. A 100-grain Ballistic Tip normally ruins far less meat! It was astonishing.

Have also shot Texas does on cull hunts with spine/shoulder shots with standard cup-and-cores from .243 to 7mm cartridges and never had a problem with penetration or anything else. But a Texas doe isn't an Alberta buck.

or with the amax. Fav shot with a rifle.

I use the same aiming point and it has always worked well for me.

Its my preferred shot in Mountain terrain....Drops them in there tracks...I learned the Hard way in East KY after a few Briar thicket recoveries and drags to the bottom of a holler and walks back to the top to get the ATV..

Depends where I am hunting and how close I am to: a river, swamp, property line, close to end of shooting light,etc.

First option is usually in the boiler room but, if close to any of the above, then it's the high shoulder shot for me.

Up here in the North woods that's know as the "Violater's spot".

I used to run shooting matches with the local game warden. The first time I shot a buck there, It dropped in it's tracks. I told him about it and he laughed, "That's the Violators' spot".

This is not a wealthy area and a lot of the natives eat venison year round. Here abouts they are called "Jackpine Savages". They tend to interpret the games laws as reading "I Jan. to 31 Dec" as being deer season. The best tactic to avoid contact with the game fuzz when shooting deer at night in the summer is to shoot them in that spot, throw them in the back of the pickup and to leave Dodge expeditiously.

It works well if you are really old and can't track wounded deer through the woods very well.

Yep!

I can track wounded deer pretty well, I just don't want to. And I am pretty old, so I shoot high shoulder.

Either the "high shoulder" or "boiler room" works for me.



Dropped a pair of 200gr Hot Cors through this guys boiler room...he managed to get about 50 feet from where the 1st one hit him. He was leaking pretty good.

Mauser 98? If so, what caliber?

I shoot them dead center in the shoulders, I hunt next to a property line. Not good if they go over the fence. I saw a couple of Bob’s posts when I read through this thread. They were articulate, well thought out. I think he ways an attorney, but I feel he would have made a good gun writers as well.

Vz-24, 8x57is...always figured "is" stood for IS anything else really needed? LOL

Nice.

Looks like a custom build I done on a Mauser 98. Nothing else in the safe would shoot with it. In a weak moment, I sold it to the smith that built it.

I did a necropsy on a whitetail doe this year and photographed its anatomy in " layers".

Diamond Jim was kind enough to post the pictures on a thread in the Savage Collector forum.

The thread is titled Savage 220 slug gun.

The animal was dissected in layers showing the organs. A line is across the photos to keep reference.

The first two shots I am unclear which of the two were first. We're taken at about 80 yards with of course a savage 220 20 ga slug. Barnes expander sabots.

The third was the one in the shoulder the " planted" the animal.

As you can see the exit holes pre necropsy.Right side of animal.


The entrance holes are visible at the end of the dissection. Left side of animal.

The " cartoon" images of deer anatomy posted so often on the computer WAYY over illustrates the amount of rib cage that has lung tissue in it!

Past the seventh rid is the abdomen...............containing Rumen on the left side, intestines on the right.

You can clearly see the shot that entered between the seventh and eighth rib, missed the thoracic cavity entirely.

There was in fact 3 inches of thoracic cavity behind the front leg...where the heart is located ventral .....three inches. If you shoot 2 inch groups......think about it.

The other photos show the mediastinum.....the membrane that separates the lung fields from each other. That is why a " single lung" shot can be non lethal. The punctetered lung can collapse clot up and the other lung can function.

The last two photos show the cystic ovariesthis doe had. Perhaps this is why she was not lactating and had no fawn.

Perhaps some one could transfer the photos on this thread. I have an I pad that cannot compress the photos small enough for me to post my self.

Thanks and Happy Holidays!

John

S Kane is showing a excellent point of impact.

However I would advocate about two inches lower in placement.

This is a suggestion not for greater effect, but more for considering error in the shot.

John,

I love the link to this, I just searched & can not find it !

Around 11/12/18

Savage 220 slug is the thread.

Diamond Jim posted the photos.

Savage collectors forum.

Thanks

Around 11/12/18

Savage 220 slug is the thread.

Diamond Jim posted the photos.

Savage collectors forum.

Thanks

Got it, Thank you !

I'm in the process of building another one, I want one to test a few scopes.