I'll be pissed if this goes through!


http://www.syracuse.com/outdoors/in...would_limit_ny_deer_hunting_options.html

By David Figura | [email protected]
Follow on Twitter
on March 16, 2017 at 1:24 PM, updated March 16, 2017 at 2:14 PM
A new proposed law championed by an Upstate New York state senator would radically change deer hunting regulations for bucks in many parts of the state.

The bill, S4739A, was introduced by Republican Sen. Thomas O'Mara, whose 5th Senate district covers five counties across the Southern Tier and Finger Lakes regions. O'Mara is chairman of the Senate's Environmental Conservation Committee and his bill would impact the bowhunting, firearms and muzzleloading seasons.

The legislation proposes a ban on the taking of "immature bucks," limiting hunters to "antlered deer with a least one antler with at least three points in wildlife management units 3F, 3M, 3N, 3R, 4B, 4C, 4F, 4H, 4J, 4K, 4L, 4U, 4Z, 5R, 5T, 7M, 7P, 6A, 6G, 6H, 6C, 6K and,

"taking of antlered deer with at least one antler with at least four points in wildlife management units 7R, 7S, 8N, 8P, 8R, 8T, 8W, 8X, 8Y, 9G, 9H, 9J, 9M, 9N, 9P, 9R, 9T, 9W, 9X, 9Y, 7A, 7F, 7J, 6P, 6S, 6R and 4A. (See a map of all the state's Wildlife Management Areas on the DEC website).

Each point must be "at least one inch long measured from the main antler beam," the bill states.

An exemption noted in the bill would be hunters "under the age of 17," who may take "any deer with (an) antler or antlers measuring three inches or more in length.":

The rationale?

The purpose of this bill is "to expand the Yearling Buck Protection Program, currently underway in parts of Sullivan, Ulster and Orange counties, to additional Wildlife Management Units across the state."

The bill also states: "New York has the highest yearling buck harvest rate in the nation (even when averaged with the existing Yearling Buck Protection areas) and as a result the second lowest 3.5 year old harvest in the nation. This results in a majority of hunters being dissatisfied with their buck hunting experience. The DEC 2006 survey found that 40.3 to 56 percent of hunters were dissatisfied with their buck hunting experience and a decade later only 41 percent of hunters were moderately or very satisfied with opportunities to take an adult buck."

Such regulations are normally under the jurisdiction of the state Department of Environmental Conservation. Bills like those, though, amount to an end run around the DEC. The Yearling Buck Protection Program in the Catskills was put into effect due to a special bill proposed by state lawmakers from that area, not the DEC.

Antler restrictions are controversial on the state's deer hunting scene. This past fall the DEC in its 2016-2017 asked hunters to voluntarily pass on taking young bucks. The hunting guide cover featured a picture of a deer with the question: "Want Older Bucks in NY? It's Your Choice."

"For NY bucks to grow bigger bodies and larger antlers, they simply need to age," DEC said. "New York hunters can increase the likelihood of harvesting a 2.5-year-old or older bucks simply by choosing to pass up shots at young bucks."

The rationale is that older buck are more challenging to hunt, yield more meat and bigger racks - and "create more rubs and scrapes and vocalize more - all things that enhance the deer hunting experience," according to the DEC.

The issue of antler restrictions is a long-standing and extremely ontroversial issue among the state's hunters. Many hunters value and are outspoken on having the freedom to shoot whatever size buck they choose - particularly hunters who only get out once or just a couple of times during the season.

Meanwhile, the DEC worked with Cornell University to evaluate "regional variation in hunter values and the impacts on harvest, population management and hunter satisfaction."

"The study indicated that regulatory changes are not appropriate or most compatible with hunter values at this time," DEC said in a news release. As a result, the DEC decided to go with leaving the choice up to hunters in the rest of the state.

John Rybinski, president of the CNY Chapter of the New York State Quality Deer Management Association, said, "I highly support this bill as does the majority of deer hunters as proven by eight Cornell surveys. The last, April 2015, showed 69 percent support yearling buck protection and 73 percent are willing to accept some limitations on buck hunting in order to protect more yearling bucks. The current DEC voluntary program is proven not to work. This needs to be law."

Chuck Parker, president of the New York State Conservation Council, said the council since 2009 has considered a total of 26 different resolutions advocating antler restrictions - and that each one was defeated by a two-thirds majority of the group's state-wide membership.

"Hunters want the right to choose. Any mandatory restriction such as this should be done by DEC regulation, not legislation. They (the DEC) have the expert wildlife biologists."

Cold snap, winter storm gives false hope to Upstate NY ice fishermen
Cold snap, winter storm gives false hope to Upstate NY ice fishermen
"I'm telling everyo

I predict a lot of "illegally shot deer" will be left in the woods to rot

"The legislation proposes a ban on the taking of "immature bucks," limiting hunters to "antlered deer with a least one antler with at least three points bla bla bla... "
In the name of Buck Maturity (bigger antlers)?... riiiigght....

That restriction will have more to do with "high grading" and specifically targeting immature bucks that may exhibit the most genetic potential for antler development before they get to pass those genes along imo.



"hunters can increase the likelihood of harvesting a 2.5-year-old or older bucks simply by choosing to pass up shots at young bucks."

^^^^ It ain't rocket science.
Education is the Key, not more regulations IMO. Many of the same folks that are always bitching about gov. over reach are the very ones that want added hunting restrictions on ~others~.

I found out something along time ago. The folks that can't kill a mature deer now aren't gonna be any better at it with more restrictions added.

This very approach (3 point rule) was tried in Mississippi several years ago and the results were exactly as you describe. 11/2 y/o bucks with small six point racks are the ones you want to protect because they have the genetics you want to be passed on but they ended up being the ones that got hammered by hunters. Most taxidermists noticed the downward trend of antler size pretty quickly.

Fortunately the state's game biologists realized what was happening and got the regs changed. We have since gone to using inside spread and/or main beam length to define a legal buck with exceptions for youth hunters. The state also recognized that different areas of the state due to presence or lack of agricultural crops, have different antler size potential and the state is divided into three zones. There are pictures in the state's game brochure giving ways to estimate beam length and/or spread using nose length and ear spread. We don't have "check stations" or deer tags per se so it's pretty much self-policed but so far the system seems to be working well.

Lay off the spikes and forks for a year or two. Shoot a doe. It ain't rocket surgery.

Don't get me wrong, I've shot plenty of spikes and forks, but now days I'd rather have a fawn for meat.

We have 12 Areas that have the 3 pt. per side rule, I dont like it, we see alot of spikes and 4 pts. so you would think that the next season we would see alot of 6-8 pt. bucks, dont know where they are going but we are not seeing them! I bowhunt alot, thats the only way I have gotten a buck the last 3 seasons this will be year 5 of a 5 years study! yes there are some bigger bucks but not many! also I have a very big 4pt. has to be 4-5 years old now, no brow tines, guess what hes doing alot of the breeding in my hunting area, had 4 other bucks without brow tines on the same trail cam! the COs are getting alot of calls finding small bucks being shot & left in the woods! as they didnt have the needed points.4 years ago, with the group I rifle hunt with we went 11 bucks out of 12 hunters and some spikes were passed. last season one 6pt. out of 14 hunters, go Fig!

A high percentage of the year and a half old bucks in the area that I hunt have 3 points on one side .this proposed law would do very little to protect the yearling bucks!More arm chair deer management!

Essentially the same rule went into effect in Pa with the exception of it being implemented by GC decree. We heard the same complaints, biological theories and predictions of Deer shot by mistake littering the wood. Didn't happen.

Took awhile, but now we are killing much larger antlered Bucks on average. You want nice Bucks then they need time to grow. You don't, fight it and shoot 1.5 YO.

Ours went as a spread measurement and is by FAR the best thing that ever happened to our deer herd.

Many more deer today than when it was implemented. Larger/older bucks doing the breeding. Protecting the promising ones while they age.

Heavier body weights, healthier deer.

There is really about no negative, otehr than an older deer that isn't wide enough, IE trash... but pretty much you won't get in trouble if you shoot one like that, as long as you aren't shooting a 2.5 year old 8 point. Or 3.5 year old 8 point.

You might be surprised at the results. Then again because it worked here doesn't mean it will there.

RE dead young deer, we have very little of that....

I for one don't want to really protect a 6 point thats 1.5 years old when I have 8 and 10 points that are 1.5 years old... but then again thats just me.

More likely a lot of untagged deer leaving the woods. No deer check stations, telephone call in reporting.

With very few exceptions it's one antlered deer per year during regular hunting season in NY, no does. One deer of either sex during bow and muzzle loader season.

I thought NY had some check stations on the Thruway?

I've been around and around ,many a time with hunters that are in favor of this in my area. 99% of them are hunters who want to shoot a wallhanger every time they pull the trigger. Those bucks do exist here in my area-- Few and far apart. It takes a lot of WORK to fill your tag every year with one. --- one has to learn that hunting is more than what you hang on the wall.

An entire generation of outdoor hunting shows has raised a new breed of hunter. I cannot even wrap my head around the arguments that have been the product of MANDATORY APR's. There is nothing life sustaining about a set of antlers on the wall.......

This

Maybe they do for the southern tier. I hunt in the northern zone, haven't seen a deer check station since the 70s.

....in Pa what many had to learn was hunting was more than going out, killing something small quickly so they could come back and brag, "I got mine."

Addition: What many here have yet to learn is the killing is the easy part and the hunting has become the skill. Sadly most are not up to it and quit after the first Monday. They'll be back on Saturday to take a Doe. Providing the weather is ok.

I hunt Delaware County in New York and Bedford County in Pa, both have 3 point antler restrictions. I can tell you by experience that trying to count 3 points on a small rack buck running or fast walking thru brush isn't easy even looking thru a scope! I saw 5 bucks on opening day in Pa. and the only legal deer I saw I missed fast walking thru brush after it took me forever to see the third point! I had him in the wide open but didn't see the third point until it was almost too late. The other 4 bucks I saw were sub legal scrubbers and not big deer. I find it hard to believe people have 1.5 year old 10 pointers. NYS has mandatory check stations on Rt. 17 every year!

This buck has haunted us at camp for about 3 years now--- I don't know any hunter from my area in NY that wouldn't want to get a shot at him. So far he has outsmarted all the old veteran deer hunters in my camp ,which really does not surprise any of us. --- Spending a weekend in the woods every year and shooting one like this every year would get old fast. ( PS. The Camera Date is wrong-- photo was in Aug 2015 )--- The people pushing Antler restrictions say that it produces Quality Deer--- What is a quality deer ?--- my answer-- A healthy deer

There are plenty of good bucks in NY now. Always have been since I started hunting in the 70's. No, they're not behind every tree. That's what makes them trophies. If you're good and persistent or lucky you'll get them. If not, well, everybody doesn't deserve to win now do they ?

The vast majority of the young of any species of animal are healthy. Health and youth for the most part are one and the same. That's the easy part part of Deer management. Shoot 1.5 YO's and odds are each one will be healthy. Not mature, full grown or at their peak, but most likely healthy.

Makes no difference what plan you follow, hunting seasons, one way or another manage a Deer population.

Important to note that this effort is ENTIRELY outside the DEC and their biologists.
It is totally being pushed by professional politicians.
This does not bode well for most of us!

Everyone in NYS should be contacting their legislators informing them of your stand on this.

Battue and I talked about this on a few occasions. I was dead set against QDM when it started. It takes a few years, but the result is a much more balanced deer herd, and nicer racks. It's tough to pass up those spikes. They do eat good, but it's for the betterment of the herd.

Two things. It is funny watching the NY boys get all riled up about AR's. I listened to both sides while it was going on here, and man did it roll. Eventually, the logic of it surfaced. Horns come with age and you don't get all that many when you are killing off the vast majority of your Deer at 1.5. Now, are there going to be hogs walking around all over? Nope, but eventually, you will see a definite increase in nice 8-10's. Deer you will look at and know with a glance it is legal. I can see the young guys perhaps not in favor, they haven't killed the number of Bucks the older crew has. But the facts are most of them will be. Then again how many little Bucks does the older crew have to kill before they are willing to give some of them time?

Does will be in season for meat and holding off for a nicer Buck may extend the season and time afield. Win-Win.

I think it's stupid.

I'd be willing to bet that the only thing I had time for was to determine if the deer was a buck or a doe before I shot.

If one considers hunting as sitting in a tree or a blind, then it will likely make them happy.

I mainly only sit in a blind late or if I have no other choice. I'm usually moving around and stopping here and there to look.

Some you will have to hold off because you are not sure. Others you will know as soon as you first see them. Especially when you see them before they see you.

Again, it mainly appeases the 'sitters'.

There are more of them every season.

Can't comment on NY, but in Pa it was a GC decision. Based on a few issues. Excess Deer for food supply and some insurance input with regards the number of Deer/Car collisions. Didn't hear a single comment from either side that had anything to do with how one hunts.

Mostly it appeases guys who are mainly hunting for horns {IOW bragging rights } and are too stupid and/or lazy to find a "trophy buck" without special restrictions to increase their numbers.

I hunt to fill the freezer. It's fun when the king tells you which ones of the king's deer you can kill and which ones you can't.

God forbid someone shoots a 2 1/2 year old forkhorn for the freezer.

Hunted NY in the 70's

My take, FWIW. I own and hunt land in the north country, upstate and the southern tier. North of Syracuse I would consider any buck a trophy due to the lower density. Around home in Western NY we grow some bruiser bucks and I've been more than blessed to kill quite a few really nice 3+ yo bucks. We also have access to more doe tags then I would ever need to fill in a year. I hunted the Southern tier a lot more when I was younger but still hunt Steuben/Allegheny with friends from time to time. The deer heard in that area is but a shadow of what it once was, but there are lots and lots of really nice deer taken down there every year WITHOUT the need for ARs.

One of the biggest problems I see is we are losing hunters every year in this state for a multitude of reasons. What I'm afraid ARs will do is discourage the guy that can maybe only get out one or 2 days a year. If Joe weekend hunter now has to let bucks walk , he very well could decide it's not worth it anymore to buy that $40 license that supports the sport. Not every guy who likes to hunt can afford to take time off to do so, but we NEED every dam one of those hunters to continue the pursuit or pretty soon they wont be anything left of the sportsman's voting block and then there wont be any hunting left at all.

When we were younger we used to think ARs were a good idea, BUT - Who am I to tell you what you should be able to shoot or not shoot? If a guy want's to shoot a yearling spike and it makes him happy, God bless him. That should be his choice. Bottom line - you don't NEED ARs to grow big bucks, you just need some self control. The a$$wholes who are pushing this are just a bunch of greedy, self righteous Yankees that want to control chit that ain't theirs.

there is no room for logic in this debate. brown it's down is the rule and always should be!

actually in real life if you let deer live they get bigger. it's a crazy concept I know. bow everyone knows if you let a buck to live to be 6 he's likely to be dominant/big. he has to run a lot of gauntlets to do that, so it's rare. slam everyone else into a short season, highly populated means that HEY! you kill a deer, you're somethin'. a legal buck who cares, an antler is an antler. take the picture an forgetaboutit amIright? seriously though point restrictions aren't that bad in a hunting populous that can't control their trigger finger. (I'm speaking in generalities and not for everyone there). a point restriction on a limited term might be good

I'm hoping you let any and all hunt your land in the North Country?

Yep. I don't own enough to make a difference and even if I did I don't live there so it's open to the locals and they have always responded in kind.

There are many landowners in the county that I live in that are hard pressed to even hang on to there property due to the outrageous tax burden.Telling these folks what size deer that they can kill on their own land is not going to set too well!

So the "king" never tells you when you can hunt, or how many deer your allowed to shoot?

This could be a better cat fight than what went on in Pa. We kept it along management lines, this is about taxes and may bring about the next American revolution. Sam Adams and the Sons of Liberty will rise up from their graves and lead New Yorkers dressed up as Indians while they burn and throw their licenses into the NY harbor while screaming "Don't tread on my Dink". This could be a hoot.

I didn't intend to go off topic ,but ,there are many variables to consider.As in many things ,you can't please everyone!

Taxes in this state would make a lot of peoples jaw hit the floor!

PA public education?

Auto the best may yet come. Camps in Pa were broken apart because of this. I don't know of any divorces, but I wouldn't bet against at least one.

Once upon a time I was looking at some places in NY State, much of my family originally came from there.

There were lots of places I looked at where the monthly property taxes just about equaled the mortgage, and I'm only talking 200K +/- homes with a little acreage.

Last year a paid %350.

How many DOE are you allowed to kill in upstate NY during rifle season?

In the area that I hunt it's one doe during the regular season,if, you draw a antlerless tag.But, I also get an either or tag and an antlerless tag for bow/muzzle loader.

So if you don't draw an antlerless tag, then you're only option for putting a deer in your freezer during rifle season might have to have 4 points on a side or some such silliness.

We've lost touch with what the very reason for hunting is. The further we move away from it, the worse things will become.

It varies in different parts of the state. Some areas issue no doe tags, some areas issue two tags per hunter. In the areas with no doe tags the only way to legally take a doe is during bow or muzzleloader season. The dipshyts who say "just shoot a doe if you want meat" likely aren't aware that isn't an option for everybody in all areas. Also, the ones who think you should be willing to pass up a lesser buck likely never hunted in the areas where hunting dawn to dusk every day for a week might very well result in no bucks sighted at all. In those low deer density areas you see horn you better shoot or be prepared to eat tag soup.
.

What are the odds of not drawing a Doe tag? How many years out of the last 10 did you not draw one?

Steely,if the proposed law passes and I don't draw a doe tag then my only legal option would be a buck with at least three on one side in the area that I most often hunt.That's during the regular gun season.If I buy an additional bow and muzzle loader tag that will give me an either/or tag plus a doe tag.

Excellent post and right on.

I know my great aunt would shoot one out her back window on the farm. She didn't care about horn size, she wanted the meat. It was huge for her to get a deer to help supplement. As they grew older they couldn't handle taking care of farm animals any longer.

I'm talking about the 1970's and into the 90's. She finally had electricity brought to the house in the late 80's. They still used an outhouse till her death.

I'm pretty sure she's wouldn't be running out to purchase a bow or muzzleloader to kill the one deer the king allows.

In a neighboring county where the 3 point rule is law,there are very few doe permits given,and then only for land owners and not every year for them!

In the area that I hunt the most I get a doe tag ,on average,sixty five percent of the time.

Area 40 by chance ? That's where I am. Luckily I have places to hunt in area 7M so that's the DMU where I get my doe tags as of late.

Ok, how many years out of the last 10 have you not had a Doe tag for some area?

I've been turned down twice in the past 10 years. Luckily for me transfering doe tags from one hunter to another is legal and both years my dad got issued a doe tag and gave them to me. Dad hasn't hunted in years but still gets his license every year just so he can give his doe tags {if any} to me. Still, there have been a couple years I didn't have a doe tag. In those years I still killed a couple with bow and/or muzzleloader but not everyone hunts with bow or mz or wants to.

BH ,I hunt 7P,but I am a member of a club in 40.

Interesting. Recruit Aunt Nellie and it should be a slam dunk.

I've seen some slammer bucks taken out of 7P and 7M over the years. No antler restrictions needed if you ask me. Two guys I work with got bruisers out of 7M last season. An 8 point that scored 134 and dressed at 190 and an 11 point that scored 151. I got a 9 point that scores 114 and a 10 point that scores 136 out of 7P a few years ago myself and I am not a trophy hunter.

It's pretty easy, if you don't want to shoot a dink, don't shoot a dink. I'm not sure why states need to legislate it.

Its very simple actually, people shooting what they WANT does not work for the trophy buck crowd, and if I'm not going to voluntarily do it their way then they are going to make me.

EXACTLY!

It's funny that guys that say they want less government intrusion seem to be in favor of more government intrusion.

It's difficult to get some out of the nanny state of mind.

I was in a State Farm meeting in Pa. where the insurance company bragged about pressuring the State into changing game laws to save them money. Do you remember in the late 80s-through about 91 or 92 when you could literally kill five deer a year without even hunting.......

The numbers STATE FARM showed usat the time were :
1750.00 dollars per deer hit incident x 50000 deer incidents reported = 87,500,000 dollars spend on deer repairs average.

Worked great in Pa, not sure why it wouldn't work in NY. Give it a chance, I bet you're going to be glad you did. For 20+ years 8 points were hard to come by At out camp in nw Pa, usually a 15 inch 6 point was a good buck. I've killed 6 8 pointers, a couple 7's since the restrictions came into effect, and a big ten this year. I passed on a 17 inch 8 point on the first morning, that would have been absolute insanity when I was a teenager.

MM

Yep, same stuff the Texas Trophy Hunters Association accomplished for much of Texas. A legal buck in my area has to have either an unbranched antler or a 13" inside spread.

If big 8 points are numerous and easy to come by now then they aren't trophies anymore. Just common bucks that any dumbazz can get.

COAST GUARD BOARDING POLICY
To enforce these laws, the Coast Guard is empowered to
board and inspect vessels. Many of the laws can be
successfully enforced only by boarding a vessel while it is
underway. Boardings are not necessarily based on
suspicion that a violation already exists aboard the vessel.
Their purpose is to prevent violations. The courts have
consistently upheld this authority. All Coast Guard officers
and petty officers are Federal law enforcement officers and
they may board any United States vessel anywhere.



How does it feel to have worked for the nanny State?

Our annual buck harvest in NY has gone from 80-90% 1.5 year olds back in the 90's to 55% 1.5 year olds now. There are more 3.5 yr olds and over out there now than ever before in our lifetimes. This is because hunters are voluntarily choosing to pass on younger bucks. Our herd is healthy. We don't need antler restrictions for anything.

Depends on the management unit. Where I live I can usually get 4, and the state allows you to sign over your tag(s) to a friend so it's basically unlimited. Where my camp is they have not given out a doe tag in several years that I'm aware of. Southern tier counties you can usually get one per year, but it's no guarantee.

Its all about $$$$ DNR here thinks if theres Huge Bucks then more out of state hunters will come here! Our Youth hunt they can shoot any bucks or does, Iv asked why not let them shoot a doe so the small bucks can grow, as they are pushing on me! they say that the kids now days dont wont to shoot a doe, they want bucks! hell when I was a kid any deer would do! it the dam tv shows, I wish they would do away with them! It all about the $$$$ anymore, not about the deer herd, we can shoot 2 bucks the second buck must have 4pts. per side, Id be in favor of a one buck limit any size! I know 2 guys in there 80s that would like to shoot another buck before they cant hunt anymore, and they are seeing bucks just cant count the dam points before they our out of sight!

That's compelling.

MM, I hunted Tioga Co for many years back in the 80s-early 90s. I don't think the comparison to today's NY herd is quite fair. Back then I could pretty much count on seeing 50-100 deer opening day of PA on the Game Lands. Problem was you had to scope the heads of every one of them hoping to see a 3" spike you could shoot at, and if you did it was an easy drag because they wouldn't be much bigger than the average Labrador. That herd was over populated beyond the carrying capacity of the land. As I remember it, does were pretty well protected with their own 1 or 2 day season that you had to be lucky to get a tag for. My point is the ARs in PA, and the subsequent decimation of the over population of does, was a MANAGEMENT decision, and in hind sight a good one IMO.

NY does not have the herd issue that PA had. This proposed law is based solely on greed, not good wildlife science.

Common sense response.

You boys best fight it out hard at the State level or you are going to lose.

Are you intentionally missing the point? Thay is the only way I can imagine someone reading what I wrote and responding as you did.

If the antler restriction law were to pass and NY became known as a "big buck" state it would ruin deer hunting for the common man. Right now it's still possible to get permission to hunt private land just for asking. I have permission on several parcels myself. That would disappear as all the private land would be leased up for exorbitant amounts of money. It has happened in every state that becomes known for it's trophy bucks.

There isn't much fighting it out in this state,they will do whatever they want,as they have proved with the safe act. They'll just ram it through at 11pm on Christmas eve!Regardless of what anyone else thinks.It won't effect me much ,in recent years I've past up plenty of buck that I didn't want.It will effect a good share of others that may only have very limited time to hunt,thus causing them to say the hell with it.Today's society,where's my selfie wand!

No, I'm not missing the point. You are.

Pre-restrictions there were very few 8 points, post restrictions there are more. Logic isn't hard to follow. Everyone I hunt with and talk to are pretty happy with the results and management. Not everyone hates it. It might not be as bad as you think. But I'm just some dumazz, disregard my opinion and experience because it is not yours.


MM

The more big 8 and 10 points you put out there, the less valuable they become as trophies. I killed a 195 lb.{dressed} 10 point here in 1981. That was a super "buck of a lifetime" type trophy back then when 90% of our yearly harvest was 1.5 year olds and only 2% of our bucks lived to see 3.5 years of age. It's only the rarity that makes a trophy. Put hundreds of 195 lb. 10 points out there and they become just another average buck.

Nothing screws up wildlife management like leaving it to state legislatures. For the sake of your deer herds and your sport, I hope that cooler heads prevail.

Lol, put me in a place with hundreds of 200 pound 10 points. I promise I will never be disappointed with my average buck. That is argument for the sake of argument.

MM

I'd just get sick of dragging those heavy, smelly bastards out of the woods. I've never cared much about antlers. I go hunting to kill something and eat it. I fed most of that big 10 point I killed to the dogs. The meat was tough and I could tell by the smell that it was meat from that buck {I killed a couple other deer that year too} when my wife took a package of it out of the freezer and left it on the counter to thaw.

Pretty much anymore when we cut up deer there are two types of packages: back straps and burger. Can't really tell the difference between a young doe and old buck on the burger, and never had a bad batch of back straps unless they are over cooked. I like mine nice and bloody.

MM

When I read this kind of thing, I know I'm in the presence of a bullszchitter and/or someone that doesn't know how to take care of the meat.

I've killed and eaten bucks 7+ years of age - both ag fed and big-woods deer and have never had one like you describe. But it makes for a heck of a story.

As a kid growing up in PA I saw more deer and bigger deer before all this BS. Now we have 3 and 4 yr old bucks that are still a 2x2 that you can not shoot breeding and passing on their crap genetics then creating more bucks with bad genetics.

It seems QDMA is driving more hunters away, if you think about it the Humane Society of the United States goal is to reduce hunting, QDMA is doing the same thing.

QDMA=HSUS just saying.

Young bucks and does are milder and more tender in my experience... but I've never had an older animal that was BAD. One big old blacktail I killed a while back had a big rutty neck... he still ate ok. I'd say my least favorite deer out of 20-something of them was a mature high-desert sage country mule deer. That deer possessed some off flavors, particularly in the connective tissues, which is normal but WOW it's strong in that deer. I wouldn't serve it to guests unless I trimmed it really carefully. By contrast the dink I shot last year at the same area is absolutely delicious, rivaling the buttery "acorn buck" I shot many years ago.

I am sort of in agreement with this general train of thought. I'd much prefer to see states have one buck limits and a antlerless tag if the herd supports it and that's it once you have your tag filled you are done no extra tags no special hunts and I don't care if you shoot it with a gun, bow ml or spear. Likewise lengthen the season so that folks don't have to feel like they have one or two weekends to hunt and they might exhibit more selective harvesting . I'm getting a bit tired of the game laws catering to the few that spend their every minute in the woods or on the water.

Wouldn't surprise me if the NY GC is letting the legislature put up the bill so the heat isn't on them. Trump and done.

Old Willys you need to change where you are hunting because many of the guys/girls are bringing in more than respectable Deer and have been doing it for awhile now. Then again, it seems those who consistently punched their tags in the past, consistently still do so. Those who didn't, still don't. Wonder why it works out that way? Just saying.

And how do you know how old they are? Takes a fine hand to tell how old a Deer is when he is screwing. Damn you old guys make it difficult on us old guys.

Anyway, it seems the key to not letting the 2x2's breed is not having too many Does. See if you can figure that one out.

I agree, mostly. That said, I had one big buck that was very difficult to choke back. He was probably a 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 year old deer, well rutted and tasted horrible.

That was the only deer I couldn't eat.

Huh, you must be a liar like me. After all, the deer expert SKane says there's no such thing as bad tasting venison and he knows everything.

what about us guys that prefer to shoot little deer?? Just sayin...

I had a bad doe once too. The meat was very tough and strong flavored. She was an exceptionally big old bitch but I don't know if that had anything to do with it or not. The off flavor may have been diet related. Regardless, younger animals as a rule make for better eating than older. This is true of everything from rabbits and squirrels to cattle and pigs. It doesn't change when it comes to deer. While I have eaten many older bucks and does that weren't bad, they still weren't as good on the table as the younger animals.

In my experience point restrictions don't generate trophies. First issue is many will shoot first and count later, simply walking away from sub-legals.

Second, as soon as a buck makes the designated number, he's taken out. Years back we had some 4 by mule deer units. Camps were filled with wimpy 2 yr old 4 by's.

Dumped that system and went to any buck but limited access or tag numbers. Most hunters are happy with the first buck they see and do not put in the time to shake out the educated big boys. That unit now supports some really fine animals, and only a small minority of hunters will put in the effort needed to find them.

This is about a 3 possibly 4 yr old. When he makes 5 or 6, like the guy below, there will be some substantial mass.


Limiting hunter numbers such that the escapement can put on age will also grow trophies. Perhaps a good number of fork only tags, and a limited number trophy tags. This has worked well with a couple elk units in Oregon, with one needing about 15 yrs of preference points to take a trophy. I'll be doing that one next year (2018) and odds of a serious trophy are well in my favor.

Regardless, it should be biologists that manage the states stock, not politicians. Whoever does that job should have population and trend numbers on hand and respond to variations on an annual basis.

Ever the knowitall dickhead. What a surprise. GFY.

Yes, limiting hunters and access will work. However, no living being walks the earth who could get fork-horn and trophy only tags passed here in the East. They are already arguing over 3 and 4 to a side. Combine it with limiting hunter numbers on open State land? Good luck with that. 15 years preference points for a trophy tag?

God could get that done and none other.

I can see where limiting access is working to some extent in the area that I hunt. It's not buy the DEC's design though.There is mostly posted land with no access and no hunting at all on some of it.After the first day or to of gun season the deer pile into these safe zones and stay right there.

This is not a one size fits all across America management plan. Limited access, we've already got that by way of private land posting being the rule rather than exception. We simply do not have the large plots of land to manage, a large parcel in Pa is a few hundred acres with many parcels much smaller. We are seeing bigger bucks, living longer than they did before. The buck I killed this year was the biggest in our camp's 64 year history, with bigger bucks in the area. 2 years ago a buck was killed on our block that grossed 172", one this fall an 8 point that pushed almost 150" and another that made it through the season that would be pushing 160". Simply put those bucks did not exist in our area at any other Time in my family's memory.

I think this is probably the best most accurate post on this thread.

NY and Pa both have large plots of public land that could be managed. We have GL that are over 10,000 acres. Most are easily over 1000 and more than a few in the 5000 plus category. And the total is over 1.5million.

About all they can do is timber cut, which is what pretty much pays the bills and in and of itself a good habitat enhancement tool. There are areas back in that most never set foot on, in that they don't allow motorized access. You can bike into some areas, but for the most part it is walk in and out. The still strong, that can get back in and out kill some impressive Bucks. There isn't and an overabundance of Deer, but the Buck to Doe ratio, along with limited pressure, may be the best in the State for allowing Deer having the opportunity to mature.

Most of that mountain country isn't conducive to growing food plots and such. Even if you could get the equipment back in there.

They put in antler restrictions in Arkansas where I hunt 10 or 15 years ago. I was against it. I was in the habit of shooting the first legal deer that I saw. It has made deer hunting safer when you have to count points and evaluate every deer before you shoot it. Our game department after a few years started allowing the taking of more does.
Our herd has grown where I hunt and is more balanced now.
I expect to choose which 8 point or better bucks I want to shoot now and always pass on several. It hasn't been a bad thing here.

We never would have ended up with 1.5 year old 10 points if it were not for management restrictions...

I often compare it to livestock.... you would not just shoot all your promising stock... you'd let genetics work and try to end up with better, most would anyway.

Like I"ve said, different areas may need different goals, but for us, management did all the good in the world and very very little negative associated with it.

Why is it important to have 1.5 year old with 10 points ?
But don't hold this against me.
Picking and choosing which 8 pointer to shoot or hold off for a 12 pointer sounds like today's standard that every one participating will get a trophy. To each his own on the way one hunts, But when age old laws are changed to satisfy a few ,it puts a thorn in my side.
Like I told my neighbor years ago that wanted all the land owners in his area to become members of HIS QDM area and he will set the rules on who is to hunt and what size bucks can be shot.------ Save your money buy up the 3000 acres ,start your own QDM with your rules and hunt it. Don't push your rules on me. A spike horn can be a trophy. Web

Some thoughts:

Age old laws were changed decades ago when they started issuing Doe tags in Pa. And those who thought it was a sin to shoot mother Doe screamed. When it came to herd management it was the right thing to do.

Again this is herd management and it seems more and more those who are against are the few. Those for, the majority.

How does AR benefit deer management ? By allowing Doe to be harvested in overpopulated areas increases food supply for others and decreases the ability for overpopulation--- Deer heard management----- That's doe not bucks---
If anything only shoot the inferior smaller Spike and 3 pointers for about 6 years-- Let the big boys do the breeding.
Then you will have some smashers. Buck -- Doe Ratio at my camp seem to be for years now about 1-6 by our observation. Seems to be OK but that's my opinion. Web

DEC's biologists say our deer herd is perfectly healthy and that there is NO NEED for antler restrictions to imrove the health of the herd. The ONLY reason for it is to make the trophy hunters happy. Period.

Web,

That is probably another way to the same end, but some of those smaller ones would be the breeders down the road.

Thing is, times change and you and I are fossils when it comes to the age categories of those who buy hunting licenses and the last couple generations of current hunters are the ones who are going to make the rules. This is one of many possible Deer management methods and it happens to be the one most today want.

I'm not all for AR's for Deer hunting in Pa. Why? because the young bucks I see at the range using them, for the most part, are not riflemen and I get the feeling they are going to treat Deer hunting like a video game. Then, the guy shows up with one who is safe and very proficient. Who am I to say he shouldn't be allowed to use it.

So, I best sit back watch the change and adapt. Because like it or not it is here.

battue--- never ever thought of it that way, but like good old Bob told me " The Times they are a changing " Looking deeper into what you said reminds me of my father asking me why I needed a scope mounted on the custom M98 -8mm he gave me. I took off the Williams peep he used. New Generation Dad. It's like growing up in the 50's --best of times never again.
You may be right--- Set back and hope my grandchildren can enjoy the outdoors like I did. I own 2 camps with 270 acres of private hunting that borders 3 thousand acres of public hunting--Grandchildren and friends hunting for life. Keep your powder dry. Web

Web,

I'd bet most of those young bucks wish they had the Deer hunting you have made for yourself and the kids. 👍

If you knew about management that you don't care about, a spike is a trophy, I kill every last one I see mostly. They are inferior.

I"m not doing what most assume though, I"ll harvest a large buck, but I'm using the rules to make the herd bigger, larger, healthier.

If you saw what it did down here, you would understand.

You can kill a bigger, healthier, more meaty deer every year. Even if you want only a spike or the first legal 13 inch wide deer you see. And along the way we have more does, more fawns and more and healthier bucks because its allowing nature to do what its supposed to, instead of letting all the pre teens breed each other and inter family....

Me, I've shot 2 mature bucks sicne the rules changed in 2004. The first buck I ever shot here, prior to that is to date a small one by comparison and young. But that was prior to the rules and when we rarely saw a deer. Now its rare not to see a deer when hunting or just around the house. Its actually rare not to see a legal buck every day I'm around and looking.

I fail to see how results like this would put a thorn in your side.

First few years I heard a bit of bitching...I haven't heard a single negative thing lately. From anyone.

Heck management has allowed us to have enough does where I could get a doe permit too if I wanted...

Of course I"m ahead of the loop since I own my own land already...

But they did it on public land that we hunt off and on too... nothing but positives there too.

BTW I failed to asnwer... its not important to have a yearling 10 point, its impressive.

BTW we still shoot with irons at times... if that makes you feel any better. LOL

It's a little different here. We're at or above carrying capacity in most areas now. We don't need more deer. We aren't allowed to feed and the deer need enough natural browse to make it through a hard, snowy winter without destroying the forest/habitat.

Rost495---- To gather info. and to think about what you have said to help me understand it better. Do you in your hunting area sit and watch feeders ? Bating the bucks you shoot. And about how many deer will you see in an average day of hunting ?
Buck and Doe ? Thanks Web

Web

I rarely sit a stand at home. I do have protein feeders out and I do have spin feeders. I usually ease around as I maintain a number of smaller food plots mostly year around as I can manage and if we get enough rain.

I did shoot 2 bow bucks from a feeder, it was the way to get close enough as I refuse to shoot past 15 yards with a bow period.

The rest are often on trails between plots or just crossing the pasture or on a food plot.

I"ve even shot one basically off the porch, a 3.5 year old 16 inch long spike that took me 3 years to finally kill... he actually finally had a short brow tine on that third year.

Usually I"ll see more bucks than does. I have no clue why. Boggles my mind actually but I'm not complaining. I"m not picky either, I"d be happy to shoot a handful of does every year to eat and never shoot a buck. But not at home, the numbers are skewed. I suspect I'll see around 5-6 bucks sometimes up to 10, on a morning or evening hunt. I see does, generally no more than 1-3 probably every other or every 3rd hunt or so.


Cameras show an average of 10-15 bucks in a 24 hour period on some of the plots/feeders/trails. And usually up to 4 does in that same period. Does are just tending to pop up more to the middle of the day. And since the cameras are at feeders, yes you could kill them there more or less. Though my nephew has tried to bowhunt them and has not had much luck. Mostly cause he doesn't listen to when he should and how he should and doesn't hunt em hard enough. But face it, 100 acres isn't much, and there isn't much I can't reach if I can see it. Almost tough to see past 400 or 500 yards and mostly past 300... all of those are easy shots for a 308 feeder or not.

Realize though too, I don't make much time to hunt at home, maybe an hour in the morning and about an hour in the evening, maybe 2 if its a weekend and my pager doesnt' go off.

Hopefully thats given you info.

I do totally realize every area can be different, but as I've tried to note, lots of folks were against our 13 inch spread rule to start with. Fear of this and that. Of course now hardly any are against it. But we still don't limit the number of bucks per acre of land, and in one fell swoop years of work could go down the tubes quickly.

And you'll have to realize I"m biased. I was born in 65. We bought the place in 63 IIRC, and I can recall seeing a deer now and then in the late 70s. Then it moved to maybe see a deer once or twice a year in the 80s. And finally to where now its weird if you don't see a deer or handful on any given day.

Jeff

You learn how to identify legal racks and non legal racks. Yeah, you might miss an opportunity because you didn't see that third point,but that's the breaks. This works. Don't whine about it if you haven't tried it.

How so?

I think Battue would agree with me on this one-back before QDM, it wasn't at all uncommon to see the 35 deer the first morning. But you might look at 35 deer and maybe find on year and a half old spike out of all those sightings. Any deer much over 120 lbs. was considered a good sized deer. The herd was way too unbalanced. There were way too many does, and not enough bucks reaching maturity to even things out. The herd is much more balanced now, and the deer don't over-graze the available browse like they used to.

This wasn't done for the trophy hunters. It was done to improve the overall health of the deer herd.

I agree with this. It's hard to pass up that fork. But it's for the betterment of the herd. Not for the "king".

Are the doe tags plentiful in the area to be impacted by AR? If so, why would a 1-2 day hunter worry that he can't shoot a spike? I usually see more does that bucks.

I'd have to agree with that.

Horseshyt ! NYDEC biologists have done numerous studies and concluded our deer herd is perfectly healthy just the way it is. Their official position is that antler restictions are completely unnecesary for the health of our herd.

True dat.

The purpose of hunting is, and always has been to maintain a healthy deer herd, not making sure there's a spike buck behind every tree so everyone can get a buck. It's our responsibility as hunters to maintain the herd. A healthy herd. Too many spikes, and too many spikes being killed, isn't a balanced herd.

They do it to develop a more balanced deer herd.

This is not done for the trophy crowd. It's done for the betterment of the herd.

Wrong. My purpose for deer hunting was always to kill deer and fill my freezer with meat to feed myself and my family. The States purpose for setting seasons and bag limits is to keep deer numbers within the carrying capacity of the habitat. PGC failed to do that for many years and allowed their herd to become grossly overpopulated, hence the reason the massive herd reduction initiated by Gary Alt became necesary. Bigger bucks/antlers was just the carrot Alt dangled in front of hunters noses to get them to go along with the massive herd reduction.

I've seen wildlife management issues end up being regulated legislatively and it never goes well. I don't know why legislators think they are better equipped to make wildlife management decisions than the game department professionals of their respective states.

Why bother with a game department if management is going to be done by legislators or in some cases, the ballot box.

There was a time you could see strings of 50+. But that would be before almost all here times. Back in the late late 80's early 90's in the big woods you could see 30-40 with a small Buck usually. And occasionally a nice one would show up. And rarely a big one. I grew tired of it and moved S. By then the Deer had naturally migrated in that direction to more abundant feed.

For a long list of reasons, I believe that AR are essentially anti-hunting.
The most recent bit of evidence: that the legislature here in New York is behind the current effort, the same folks that brought us the SAFE act.
The DEC is not involved and does not agree.
It is disappointing, in the extreme, that the QDM and other selfish "sportsman are begging for more regulations by supporting yet another back door effort, bypassing the wildlife biologists.
The "holier than thou" attitude of these folks is noted.

I believe you are spot on.

That might be your purpose, but it's not the Game Comission's purpose.

I still say the distinct possibility exists that your DEC jumped in bed with the legislature and let them do the dirty work. Thus they can say, we are implementing AR's because we have no choice.


Addition: The opposing sides here are in fact hunters.
Those who favor QDM and those who don't. Get ready for QDM to win the race. They are the new kids on the block. Their votes are the ones that count. The baby boomers are out and have one foot in the grave. It was a nice ride, but it's about over.

Yep. Double spot on.
I've only spoken to 2 state wildlife biologist, but, both scoffed at the idea that antler restrictions have any scientific merit.
You want to shoot a big buck and practice QDM, that's great, and I applaud you.
But, don't legislate your values on the rest of the sportsmen.

Battue, you are probably correct,follow the votes and follow the money,the rest is smoke and mirrors!

battue and Autofive, Since NY is the state that made Hillary a US Senator, and re-elected Cuomo after the SAFE Act, I can't find solid ground to argue otherwise.
Guess that I am hoping that, since Trump was elected, some sort of common sense might prevail. Tough to be optimisitic in this state.

I"d suggest that many of you never try to raise any kind of livestock, at least not for profit anyway.

YMMV.

Scott your note about fine for sitters is fine, but IMHO we all enjoy different ways of hunting. I have to sit at our lease mostly. I don't have to at home and i"ve yet to worry myself while walking, if I didn't get a shot at a buck, there will always be next time...

OTOH I"ve often wondered if we limited our harvest to 1 deer here, we dont' care what it is, per X acres according to the population, what that would do to the herd in terms of numbers/balance and health. I"m not really willing though, since the current regs have went beyond my wildest hopes of helping.

Oh I get it, Live stock is the critters with the tags in there ears right?... oh wait ....

Raising live stock and Wildlife Management are about as far apart as it gets in my opinion.

A couple points, Nobody seems to ever bring the Does genetics into the trophy (QDM)discussions. There is a lot of research that has suggested that the Does contribute more to passing along antler characteristics the buck does.

The other is the point of all spikes being somehow inferior. Many controlled studies have debunked that myth along time ago.

They may be far apart, in some aspects but the basics are the same totally. You manage for numbers according to food supply, and you manage the best you can per what you can tell of who produces the best animals.


Best animals are not going to be the largest antlers always. Generally they coorelate but not always.

We are after whats best for the herd, not the largest antlers. Large antlers are a side plus. Like getting more money at the sale for nice steers that took you some time to weed out the chaf in your herd.

Does. How can you deal with does? I don't know. But does that mean I should totally ignore what I can see? NOpe, not for me anyway.

Spikes. Nope they don't stay spikes at all. But I've been able to track some here at the house due to identifiable body characteristics in a couple of ways, and in the end, I've yet to see a spike turn into something that I'd really want to pass the genes along... nice deer, yes, but not the big heavy bodies and better genetics.

I think the panty in the wad crowd sometimes wants to just claim deer management is about huge antlers. Done correctly IMHO it benefits the herd as best you can, and along the way larger antlers tend to be a side effect that most can deal with.

How many times have you passed up the biggest buck in the woods because you wanted to shoot a smaller one? Actually at my age I am about at that point, I leave the best for others or to continue to breed and try to cull out the smaller body deer/least appealing antlers.

So in saying that I can't say I"m not about antlers, but it certainly is not all I"m looking at.

I leave the biggest does, shoot the smaller ones that are not as healthy looking and so on.

You can err a few ways... one of them is kill all the best does and bucks while they are in their breeding prime, or you cna totally ignore it and get what we had here, inbreeding, deer that were 5 plus years old and racks were not more than 10 inches wide, heavy, bodies small and wiry and so on... plus the fact that so many folks shot every legal deer they saw( and was legal to do because legal was antlered)(so much for protecting all does and have that solve your problems)

The thing though, all solutions have to be balanced.

And if you have folks that don't care, just want to shoot the first legal deer and go home, then you can't really try to manage. I"m good with that too, I"ll still do what I do, but it won't help much unless I can control a block of land.

Also, just thinking a bit sitting here, if you aren't trying to better your herd, aren't you just participating? Like ball games these days where everyone gets a trophy for being there and there is no score?

Is that a plus or shouldn't we do everything we set out to do to the best of our abilities, even if we fail in that effort?

At the end of the day their is nothing more noble than a man providing meat for his family. I don't give a f&ck it it's a spike or a 10 point.

Once we've completely gotten to the point that laws state you can only kill 1 Ten point, 130 B&C or better per year, deer hunting will be dead.

Limit the bucks one can kill in NY, limit the number of hunters. New Amendment to Safe Act, "Bill hasn't bought a deer license in the past 3 years, Bill doesn't need his deer rifle any longer"

I ain't trying to better a f*cking thing. That mentality has given us 'Global Warming' and the believe that we can control waters with levees and dams.

In the end, mother nature will prevail. I don't like feeding deer, I don't like 'managing' deer, as I believe the more we f&ck with shiet, the more fu*ked it becomes.

Let mother nature deal with nature.

Re Does; it is only common sense they contribute to the genetic well-being of offspring.

There is little doubt that QDM will allow one to have more mature Deer hanging around. And older Deer will have larger horns on average provided they have good nutrition.

QDM's biggest weak link is that most of the QDM poster boys live on intensively managed food tracts. Rost has his high protein, mineral rich feeders. The "Bucks of Tim Buck Too" and the other managed farms the same. They are the equivalent of NFL players having a registered dietician on staff 24/7. Ensuring they have the right combination of carbs, protein, fat, and micronutrients. It is eternal summer. That's not normal in the Adirondacks or the Northern Counties of Pa.

When winter sets in some are lucky to make it till spring. Now a mature strong Deer has a better chance of making it than one who isn't, so QDM still has its advantage. But QDM, as practiced by the farms, is not the same as in the Dacks.

Where I deviate strongly from QDM is when they start managing for horn appearance only. Then you get into the realm of the AKC and we know what they have done to many Dog breeds. They have turned most into stupid caricatures of the original. Perhaps that odd looking 3 point is the one that passes on resistance to CWD and needs some mating time to pass it on. His value is greater than what is on his head. You don't know, but take him out just because he has spindly horns, and the good genetics he posesses other than horns never will have the chance to be passed on.

I agree with you partially, but there will always be limits. No limits didn't work out that well for Ducks during the market hunting days. No limits didn't work out well for the Pa Deer heard and we had to bring some in from other herds and start over. No limits didn't work out well for Elk in Pa either.

There are times when I want to shoot a big buck. Well, I usually want to shoot a big buck.

I now shoot a doe for the freezer and eat my buck tag or let my kids fill it with whatever they want. I couldn't care less if I don't shoot a buck anymore. As long as my kids want to keep filling my tag. After all, spending time with them in the woods far outweighs what I'll get from a deer.

Most of time I don't care what kind of buck it is, just that it's a buck. Then - BANG!

I've read most of the thread and totally agree with this.

Some of you will get a chuckle out of this because I kill some nice bucks. That's my choice. I usually wait to shoot a decent, mature buck. I'm fortunate enough to live and hunt in an area where mature deer exist. With that being said, I also kill several does a year. My kids kill any buck that strikes their fancy and that's the way it should be. Case passed up a couple of small bucks this year, but he wasn't trophy hunting. Truth be known, I don't think he was comfortable with the shot.

In my opinion, deer hunting is going the wrong direction. The size of the rack shouldn't be legislated. We need to encourage hunting and shooting.

Then we'll agree to disagree on this one.

Mother nature screwed our deer herd up so bad for so many years, being that there were basically no rules other than shoot no does, and now that we have management we have more and better deer...

Its hard for me to run the thought of leave it all alone is best sometimes.

I think the antler restrictions have improved size of bucks in PA significantly. I wish there was some provision to be able to do some culling of genetic losers, however. I have a little buck who is at least 3 years old now who hangs around the patch of woods behind my house and who has never developed much more than long deformed spikes. He seems to be successful with the local does as I see the characteristics showing up in some of the younger bucks now. I guess I could try to get a junior or disabled hunter out there to take him out.

I know what happened in TN, the folks with the authority to regulate the buck limit down to 1 are political appointees that are at best armchair biologists wanabees. And that is allowing them far more credit than is deserved imo.
They went against the states professional biologist position that said there was no justification to further limit the buck regulations solely in the name of herd health improvement. But they did it anyway.
So yes, the restrictions were made in the name of inches on the head by the big horn minority that pissed and moaned... at the expense of those that just want to enjoy their hunting heritage.

Anyone want to talk about passing antlered deer your preaching to the choir with me. I've passed a chit load of em up in the last 10+ years. And in an area that has very little hunting pressure too.
I just got tired of dragging the bastards. You don't get to drive or take 4 wheelers where I hunt.
And you know what, it has made very little observable difference in the overall age structure or overall health of the deer herd population.

If I owned enough land to hunt, I'll be damned if someone is going to tell me what I can and can't shoot on it.

You own enough land in Pa and leave it open, then the GC will pretty much leave you alone within reason.

Post it up for yourself and get turned in for killing whatever or whenever? Once they have the evidence, they will drag you out of bed and straight to court. And you will go.

The real tipping point for me was sitting in a bow stand on MY own land, with no meat left in the freezer on a beautiful fall afternoon watching 4 healthy but not legal bucks walk by and nary a doe. We have to have 3 on one side here. I went home empty handed that day. The creatures are not on this rock so you can hang a cool mount on your wall.....

I ended up putting meat in the freezer that year but it was no doubt on a cold winter day when I'd much rather have been sipping a drink.

One of the best tasting deer I've ever had was the biggest buck I've ever shot. There was not doubt he was in full rut. He wanted to kill me when he came in looking for a fight.

Take your time gutting and getting out of the woods. And shocker....your deer will probably taste good.

We use a sled to get them out, even if there is no snow.

And, if APRs are so critical to managing the heard how come it's harder than ever to put meat in the freezer?

The only deer we couldn't eat much of was a doe. And she was properly cared for as well. She was also huge and probably old.

I disagree. The herd is the herd. The way nature made it.

The ONLY reason APR's are in place is because trophy hunters are bitching about it. You don't see the DNR asking for them. It's from hunters complaining.

Good to see that socialism is alive and well in some states...

"MY" land has done more for the advancement of QDM than probably anything else. You peasants stay the hell off "MY" land. Maybe not exactly Kingly, more like I'm the Lord of the Manor.

And when did the wild animals on your land become yours to do with what you wish? I thought we got passed that King and Lord of the Manor thing centuries ago.

So you can legally kill whatever and whenever in yours without the GW's coming to visit? What State would that be? Should be a hunters paradise.

I never said the deer are MY deer, just as the Robin I'm looing at right now, ain't MY Robin.

But it is MY land and if YOUR deer happens to be on MY land when I'm feeling frisky, it might end up in MY freezer.

Again, reading comprehension escapes you as you are apparently too ate up with the Yankee.

Anyone here want to go over to Battue's house when he ain't home so we can get some of OUR deer out of HIS freezer?

Same old, same old. Nor does reading comprehension escape here. North or South there are the have and the have-nots, and there are advantages to being a have.

You are much like Clinton. "It's all what your definition of is, is"

Even if it is a stupid analogy. No need to sneak, all have to do is ask, be more than willing to share.

When have you actually seen a game commission propose these APR's? It's usually after enough of the "hunters" begin whining about there not being enough trophy bucks for them to shoot.

A trophy is different for all of us. I've shot two spike buck trophy's.

Both were shot with my late FIL. One was my first buck in WI. You've never seen a man smile as much as he did that day. When we met up later that morning he gave me giant hug. We shared a whisky that evening over a steak dinner. He was so happy I'll never forget it.

It's also the smallest deer I think I've ever shot. Don't care...



Here he is with it.

How did mother nature "screw up your deer?"

I tell you what I enjoy. Is the look on some of these anglers faces, sitting a 40 thousand dollar bass boat, about to go bat schit crazy because they see someone throw a legal small mouth into a cooler full of ice! Now THAT's Funny!!

The head hunters ain't much different, yep, nothing that more regulations can't take care of....

Not going to be an issue. I'm not going to own land in PA, so it's not a concern of mine. Nor is shooting a deer on my land, posted or not.

When I got hungry.

Nice memory. First Rabbit I killed was leaning off the hood of Unc's Cadillac that had a set of those Texas Longhorns for a hood ornament. Under the spotlight it was also.

He was happy, I was happy and I still have the memory. Had little to do with game management.

Another State where you can hunt whatever/whenever. As long as you don't get caught.

"But officer, I was hungry." "Oh, OK. Why didn't you say so and it would have saved us both all this aggravation. Tell you what, call me next time and let me know you are hungry and I'll ignore that poacher call-in I received."

I can't wait for a poacher thread. You will be on the poacher side, right?

I found out along time ago, if your gonna hunt with a remmy 760 pump, then you just have accept the fact stuff is gonna die...

The key to healthy deer herds (hell--to healthy populations of all wildlife) is the quality of the habitat. Sure, it's easy to over-harvest healthy deer populations in states which have lots of hunters and not much habitat. But avoiding over harvest is what limited license sales and bag limits are all about. (In the interest of full disclosure, I personally, have no use for high fence, QDM deer management--it's deer farming, not wildlife management. If you just have to have a lot of big heads on the wall and have more money than time, QDM operations are your huckleberry--but that's deer shooting, not deer hunting.)

States like Texas (and most of the southeastern states) have whitetails coming out of their ears. They are more focused on preventing overpopulation and the resultant habitat degradation and damage to crops and ornamental plants. They can afford to monkey with tying the harvest of a mature buck to the removal of x-number of does and/or "inferior" deer (like spikes and yearling bucks that don't have at least 8 antler points). This really isn't necessary in states like New York and Pennsylvania. If you try it, you risk alienating a significant chunk of the license-buying public. That's just one of the reasons that state game departments don't like it.

Multiple studies in a variety of states have shown that the most deer hunters are more interested in hunting opportunity and harvest success than killing a whopper. Big bucks are nice but what they really want is the opportunity to go deer hunting and bring home some venison, rather than holding out for a wall hanger. Since these are the large majority of the license buyers, game and fish departments make every effort to cater to their desires. The "big buck"-oriented pushes in state legislatures typically have their genesis in conversations between legislators and some of their well-to-do constituents who are significant donors to their campaigns.

I realize that all hunters are smarter and more knowledgeable than the average big game biologist , but most big game biologists are hunters, too. They have a personal as well as a professional interest in maintaining healthy populations of deer and other big game animals in the states in which they work. Allowing game management and harvest to be dictated by your state legislature is pretty much a guaranteed train wreck.

As another poster is fond of saying, read that and then read it again!!

Mother nature wasn't doing the screwing in that scenario...

Mother nature should have been able to balance...


But you make my point, you have to manage it SOME way. YOu can't just let people decide... they'll kill anything and everything that walks....

Well that's not all I hunt with. But that 7600 30-06 is one of the most accurate guns I've ever shot.

Thanks, excellent post and I agree most want to go out, hunt and have what they think is a reasonable chance of success. The definition of success becomes the hard part. Spend a morning and have an opportunity, a day, a week? See a lot of Deer.? Miss and think your season is over or think another chance will surely happen?

Seems as if most rifle Deer hunters here in Pa have reached the point they want to spend a little time, not too much now, shoot a Deer and get it over with.

Bow hunters, seem more dedicated and willing to work at it.

Difficult job managing an Eastern Deer herd for both the Deer and the Deer hunter. I can tell you that most hardcore Deer hunters here in Pa love the current system. They are willing to work for the opportunity to shoot a respectable Deer and damn few of them are high-rollers. The majority are working guys, They don't want a Doe behind every tree, because they know if they find the Does the Bucks will be close by. They seem willing to fail more than they win. They go into the season not expecting it to be easy. They have different mentality when it comes to their hunting than most of us.

What makes you think I'm going to talk to an officer about it?

I also didn't say I do that. I did say, an APR sure as hell wouldn't stop me from doing it if I needed to put meat in my freezer.

But by "managing" it, you ARE letting people decide. You're culling spikes because you don't like or want spike deer. That's not managing for healthy heard. That's managing for antlers.

exactly.

I'm sure you wouldn't talk to him about it before hand. I'm also sure you would post hand if he decided he wanted you to.

I'm sure he would even make an exception if you or family were starving. However, that wasn't the intent of the thread. If only obviously at minimum.

We have had restrictions in my areas for years now. I didn't agree on the git-go but must admit lately I've been seeing larger bodied & horned animals.

Only thing is you need most people to follow the rules, and we all know how that goes with people.

-Ken

Well since most think they totally get me... I don't shoot all spikes. I shoot ones that I think need to be shot. But its about herd health, the midget deer, ain't good for the herd IMHO. I may be wrong, but bigger and healthier seem to do better in the long run.

We need to get this stuff out of folks heads that antler restrictions sole goal is for bigger head gear. Its sole goal( or at least should be IMHO) is for healthier deer herds.

Face it, deer herds will have to be managed one way or another.

Our local rules basic goal is to have deer of an older age class before they are legal. Helped out how and what actually bred. And let deer age long enough to be able to breed.

Shoot an illegal by rules but old buck, I've heard the wardens let that go almost all the time now... shoot a young almost legal you get a ticket.

Whats the flip side solution to this? Let everyone shoot anything no rules?

Although part of me does like what Scott has offered a few times. If it was you can shoot one deer a year, no rules to it, it might be fine too in a way. Thats one deer per X acres to me, and then make it whatever you want to shoot or whenever in the year you need or want to shoot it.

The main things I've gathered from this thread are that I have a bunch more in common with, and new found respect for Steelhead and Tzone than I ever thought possible....And... Rost495 is just as much of an azzhole as I always thought he was. SKane ain't too far behind him either.

But people are still interfering what Ma Nature is doing. She kinda has this thing figured out.

Skane is far from as [bleep] man.

Neither of them are azzholes, not by a long shot.

Call me a liar and tell me I don't know WTF I'm doing when it comes to proper handling of game meat and you're a clueless azzhole period. It aint the first time that azzhole has called me a liar either.

Sorry, never could stomach Rost. I posted my reason for not having any use for Kane above.

I like that too

Yep - fuggin Yankees.

Nothing like a deer management thread to get people worked up. Leave the game management up to the Biologists.

I think AR's are the best thing PA ever did, totally changed the hunting and the deer herd for the better just like the Biologists said it would. I am not sure if it would work that way in NY or not. I would feel better about it if it was Biologists saying it was needed and not some numb nut politician pushing it. NY screws up just about everything it does.

Amen Brother.

My last post here.

NYS 2 years ago tried a program where we could only shoot antlerless deer during the first 2 weeks of the bow season. The stated reason was to increase the doe take and reduce the buck take. The result was most guys just didn't hunt the first 2 weeks of bow. From a management perspective it was a total flop. The state got the message and the regs were changed BACK the following year.

Bottom line for me is this. Spoiled brats with lots more money than sense are pushing this. The paid, professional biologists DO NOT support this as a management tool in all but a small partof NY over run with NYC "hunters". But - it's NY, so money and political corruption usually rules the day. ARs won't effect me much, but I do feel bad for the folks that don't have the time or money to hold out for the "new" legal deer. I hope they don't give up and quit hunting all together.

YMMV

Sounds like they are trying to turn NY into California. We have a forked horn or better law. But on either side. So a 1 by 2 is legal. We also have an approx success rate around 10%. That's an average of one deer in 10 years!

In my opinion the legislature is trying to reduce the number of successful hunters. Not to increase the size of the bucks. Out here buck gets big antlers by being smart.

Serious question, what was wrong with the herd BEFORE APR's?

That's the point I tried to make to him what whooshed right over his head.

Man thinks WAY to highly of themselves. The more the f&ck with sheit, the worse it gets.


Just a question Jeff, if every ounce of corn, every bail of alfalfa and every water tank was pulled out of Texas and not allowed for deer, do you think the population would remain the same?

SO, how do you NOT interfere with nature? If you are harvesting, you are interfering?

I"m just curious what the no hands on solution is?

I might even agree with it actually. You never know.

Is it a high or low fence operation?

Both.


Deer would not be in anywhere near the numbers in parts of Texas if it wasn't for the artificial feeding of them. They truly are livestock.

The problem with this thread, is the same with many threads on the 'Fire and it can be summed up with one word 'Provincialism'

1. I don't harvest, I KILL.

2. In case you ain't up on history and biology, animals killing animals to eat ain't interfering, it's called survival.

I appreciate you in conversations like this because we can get somewhere instead of the kindergarten name calling.

Answer for you, not nearly as many. And if we didn't have fire control like we have had, not nearly as many as the forbs line of brush and shelter would burn off quite often.

I doubt we would have half of what we have if that likely.

And you've reminded me of the same with livestock, which coming with that background, says that if we went back to not monkeying with the pastures, you could not have the numbers of them either. Makes sense.

Run farms without fertilizer or herbicide/pesticides, harvests would be way down.

The problem with a lot of that is too many people. May be the whole problem in a nutshell period actually. Likely.

We could go back to no management of deer like we had when we bought the place in the 60s. 90 or so acres of thicket, not a single deer. It was not until we started trying like crazy to bring back food for wildlife, not just clear perfect weed free cattle only pastures that we had some luck.

But as you well know, I'll do it my way, you do it yours. Works out in the end I suspect. Don't even much care if you claim to kill, and claim I harvest. We are both still eating deer in the end.

What would I have done 100 years ago? Seems a fair question. Wouldn't have had time or money to manage, would have simply had to survive with what was there. I can sure recall Dad talking about the fact there were no deer around his home place, or almost any racoons etc... they were all harvested without care to the end results.

Somewhere in there has to be? a happy medium?

But you're still talking about man interfering.

The fact that you even use the term "harvest" leads one to believe it's more of a manage or farming type operation that flat out killing to eat.

You kill spikes because you don't want them in "your" herd, because you want to see big bucks. Why aren't you shooting the does that are producing those spikes?

I've seen deer that were spikes turn into beautiful, huge, fully mature deer with a rack ANY hunter would be tickled to have.

Ok, I'll call it killing from here on out.

I've not seen the same with spikes, though as noted, I tend to view a spike for at least until the 2nd set of antlers before I take a guess if that was age/genetics/food/drought etc... he has not had a chance to breed by then anyway.

So to take man totally out of the formula what does that require?(damn that sounded like gus..) kill whatever whenever? Would that be sustainable without SOME type of rules?

It actually would be nice if it could go that way, but to many people for that to happen IMHO.

Espeically here, if you told the mexican legal and illegal to have at it, we'd have nothing left. Much like the russians in alaska.

Killing, culling, harvesting, plucking...I don't care what you call it. Youre not seeing past the fact of what you're trying to do is management, not just shooting for food. You're doing it to change what you're looking at, hunting, photographing. Call it whatever you want, it's the same thing.

but what you're doing isn't forced upon the other hunters by law. That is what I have an issue with. As long as you own the land and are free to do what you want it
doesn't affect me.

I am, you are totally correct. For teh betterment of the herd IMHO.

Those that just use and don't care, how does that help anything in the end? Or do we just not care, use it until its gone and then what?

Anyway your rules are already set. Dates and kill limits. AR are only another rule. Which should only be put into effect if the herd needs it. If the herd is healthy, why worry?

The biologists I talk to locally, tell you ARs are the only way they can write into law something that should benefit a herd numbers and health wise, and along the way its obvioulsy going to mean a higher change of larger deer wtih larger antlers. A byproduct if you will.

If you are simply saying, enough rules already, by telling me when/how and how many, and I don't want more, I just want to kill something, anything, and go home, then that works too, unless its detrimental to the herds long term longevity.

Am I wrong there? Hell I"m human, 10 years from now I may agree with shoot anything and everything you want.

Oops, there I go, KILL anything I want. LOL

I have been hunting in PA for almost 40 years. Deer season used to be days of people in large parties of up to 25 people driving every patch of cover you could find. Usually resulted in seeing 100 doe or more in a day and you may see a spike or a 6 point to shoot at. A 100 inch deer was a real trophy. This is no exaggeration in decent farm country. Does season was a seperate 2-3 day season at the end of the 2 week buck season. Guys shot at everything that moved, it was almost comical at the amount of shooting that took place. It was a war zone and the deer herd was a joke and the habitat was stripped of everything within a deers reach.

Gary Alt (Wildlife Biologist) proposed changing the regulations with the goal of getting the deer numbers back in check with what the habitat would support and getting some age structure in the buck population. It is better for the deer. He based it on the science of whitetail management. People threw a fit but it passed. The herd has been brought back in check and the habitat is coming back. The age structure is normal and you have no idea what is going to show up. People are seeing and shooting deer as good as anywhere in the country. I am not a trophy hunter but It is much more fun hunting a normal deer herd. People still bitch because they don't see 100+ deer a day. You will never make everyone happy as people have different ideas of what is ideal. Let the biologists tell us what is best for the deer and the habitat. Everything Gary Alt said would happen has happened.

rost495, I think you have confused a bunch of things.
Texas ain't New York or Pennsylvania. You might be as happy about that as I am.
Got 2 dairy farms in the family and grew up on one. The male of the species is considered relatively insignificant in a dairy herd. This is also true in whitetails. Big bucks or big bulls are more freaks rather than indicators of the healthy herd you keep mentioning.
Some of simply want to go hunting with a reasonable opportunity to find game. The decision to shoot is mine.
Stopping here.

I've never had a buck that was worse or horrible compared to any other deer regardless of age or gender....all about field care and cooling the carcass properly.....then processing your animal correctly. If you just qtr a deer without removing the glands in certain areas, you're sure to get a schitty taste.

Great, but how is that attributed to MANDATORY APR's?

It sounds like you had a "healthy" deer herd, just no big bucks.

How many times does it have to be said, that this wasn't done to appease the horn hunters, or to grow big bucks. It was done for the health of the herd, and the habitat. Why is that so hard to understand?

The habitat and the herd will keep each other in check, its been happening since the beginning. It sounds like there were plenty of deer to shoot, I don't see a downside to the freezer?

The answer I was looking for is rampant disease, emaciated deer, herd decimated.....none of that there.

The only certainty on the 'Fire is provincialism.

That habitat doesn't keep the herd in check. They can out screw the habitat. Then you end up with more Deer than the habitat could support in the long term. They died off in large numbers during a hard winter. Have a soft winter and more lived into spring than the summer food supply. Their numbers were making it hard for the wood to regenerate. The wood regenerates in the spring also and too many Deer stunts the ability for it to do so. But, "Summertime and the living is easy." Winter was the squeeze and there wasn't enough food for many to come out of winter into fawn drop time healthy.

They have a lot of people in Africa but they have a food-habitat-problem and many are not all that healthy.


How many families can you feed on your salary before many start having health issues? Deer are not any different than people. Get too many living on a limited food budget and you start having malnutrition health issues. They die off quicker, they have health issues and don't produce healthy offspring. Healthy off spring often produce a nice rack. Hmmm, does that apply to Deer also. Good chance.


Now, where I fall out with QDM is when they advocate artificially keeping the numbers higher than the habitat can support. Which may be the dirty little secret of QDM. They are not going to let the known big boys die over the squeeze, so they hit them with the juice during the winter. "Only" because they want to hit them with a bullet come fall. That doesn't happen in the big woods of Pa and NY.

We should go to a different topic in a way.

Differing areas have different needs. The management than many don't want, has to be done differently to fit an area.

Its been rumored here locally, that if anyone much said we want to drop our local regs, its done what it needed to, brought the herd back to better numbers and shown killers that if you are a bit selective, then you end up with more, and healthier, and yes often larger racked deer.

I've not heard anyone ask for the rules to be removed. I'm sure some out there do wnat it though.

Interesting thing is removing the rules at this point would not change things much I dont' think. As noted its had its effect in 2 ways already.

Im the guilty one here I suspect for dragging this OT< my point was to teh OP folks, that dont' disregard an attempted improvement until you give it a while to see.

We had other things going on here, first it was doe days, then doe weekends, then doe weeks. They did nothing to help and were washed out after a few years.

The real question should be are folks satisfied with whats what, and is that the majority of folks? If so then I should have to abide by whatever the rules are.

And unless you have large tracts of private land, then you should not be able to opt out.

Heck I suspect that what works in one part of TX may or may not work in other parts at all. Same can be said of the US as a whole.

Me, I'd be just as happy killing a handful of does every year for the freezer as anything else personally. I really like watching the bucks around the house all year long. Something about that, but I digress.

Yours are different than ours then. Its like a lot of things though, animals differ from area to area, diet differs etc...

I've been able to smell a few bucks. A few doe too, some deer just taste different/stronger and have a different hue to the meat and even the odor.

We've even had hogs that you can smell em while cooking em, the taste is fine, but the odor would run you out of the house.

I don't feed the meat to the dogs though.... well actually but its at the table while we are eating CFS etc...

Nilgai are another example. Some of the best meat I've ever eaten. And then I got a batch from a friend that was horrible. Talked with the guide and he said he told them it was to late in the spring, once the juisache greens to not shoot them for X days or months they would be bitter. Boy he wasn't wrong there.

Javelina are same example. Folks eat them in AZ. Claim they are great. I've tried every last way here in TX. Even the folks of mexican descent generally will refuse them. They are not picky generally either. Finally talked to a local a few weeks ago and he said if you can shoot a striped piglet that just hit the ground they are the only ones you can eat.

And fwiw care of game in our instance is not an issue, we know how, and do right... I do know why other friends of mine don't like deer period though...

First it was buck only, then it was doe for a weekend here or there, then it was doe all season, then it was one buck only, then one buck only with 4 points per side.

Tomorrow it will be one buck only, 4 points, 16" spread and only on Tuesday and Saturday


And so it goes, till it will be f*ck you, you don't need no stinking deer rifle.


I know Jeff is happy with blasting only a few doe, I understand that, but again you ain't allowed to blast a handful of doe in many parts of NY and now you want point restrictions.


We keep getting further and further away from what hunting is.

Well that goes against every cattle rancher and game biologist I"ve ever known.

So a runt bull non tested is as good as any other in the dairy business? I've learned something new today.

RE deer you may be talking huge book deer or such though, that part I agree on, but you can easily see how a management program effects a non managed cattle operation or deer herd.

The question is do we care. And I'm not trying to be better than anyone else, simply I do what I do and if Scott or Tzone or you want to just roll along and have fun thats good by me too. Thats why we pick friends and hunting partners too, so that we are thinking the same way basically. In the end, it sure works out.

Jeff

You just summed up 11 pages without all the BS.

THAT is exactly why I have an issue with APR's.

No it was his opinion only, which would only be a portion of a thread summation.

The problem is that it is not by the majority of folks here, if this were put to a vote of the people I would suck it up and move on but its not.

Why is it that as long as a group has the time/money/clout to sway the Natural Resource Commission that I should have to abide by senseless regulation just to feed my family?

Life is not set up that way.....

I have a RIGHT to the air I breathe, the food I eat and the water I drink. Without those three things you will cease to exist. I don't understand why man will stand by and let someone control part of that for larger antlers?

And no, I don't buy into the herd health thing, at least not in our area. I have spent plenty of time in the woods from 1991 to present and can not say I have ever witnessed a health concern, the habitat is self governing, so I don't buy into that either.

Dominance and breeding success in all Cervid species correlates with antler size and body size. The pushing matches that occur prior to the actual rut are learning exercises for males, in which they learn to recognize other males which are bigger and stronger. This minimizes the amount of energy that dominant bucks have to expend keeping smaller, younger (and presumably inferior) bucks away from receptive does. Thus, trophy deer and elk management is geared toward enabling the bucks and bulls with the largest antlers to do most of the breeding. On deer farms or elk farms, this is done by harvesting (or buying) semen and artificially inseminating estrous does to ensure that only the bucks with the biggest antlers (and most desirable antler conformation) will produce offspring.

Ideally in free-ranging deer (and elk) , smaller males with poor antler conformation, or that are not going to grow large antlers, are culled. On large properties, even with high fences, intensive cropping is necessary to weed out competition for desirable breeding bucks. In low-fence habitat, cooperation between neighboring landowners with sufficiently large combined holdings can be pretty effective.

However, trying to do this across state game management units is pretty much a crapshoot. Quite a few of those dominant bucks will be harvested during open seasons, often before the rut gets underway, leaving much more opportunity for less dominant bucks to breed. The removal of a single dominant male can open up the opportunity for several to many "less desirable" males to breed that year, depending on the sex ratio in that particular population. Culling can make up for some of the loss, but sport hunting under most current regulations is notoriously ineffective.

Habitat is not self governing and can be modified by outside influences. Deer being one of them.



http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/deer/howisthehabitat/

Ben, thansk for jumping in. I think it was dumb of you to, but I appreciate it. LOL.

Is not the point of AR to try to govern age class of deer harvested so that things become better?

Or have I missed the point? Such that all does get bred( that was the case here, many does never got bred) and that more deer get closer to mature before harvest?

Not to provide larger racks?

And to follow up, if AR are innefective, they why did they produce an abundance of deer here, deer that are larger, heavier and older and by default some have better antlers?

Whats the point to try to do this across the board if there is no positive to the herd?

Jeff

Well good for you. I've killed, processed and eaten over 200 deer in the past 42 years. I'm pretty damned sure I know what I'm doing as well as anybody here. I've only had a couple that were horrible and that big 10 point was one of them. I've killed others nearly as big that weren't as bad but they still weren't as good eating as a younger deer. Same holds true for everything from rabbits and squirrels to pigs and cattle. Younger animals generally make for better table fare.

NYDEC has done studies on preganancy/ fawning rates/dates and concluded over 95% of our adult does are getting bred during their first estrous cycle. That was part of the information with which they concluded AR's are not needed to improve the health of our herd.

I guess one thing that sort of stands out to me with the qdma types is I see all of these comments about shooting all of these cull deer spikes , fork horns, and dozens of does etc over a 3 month long season using extra management permits like it's just a chore they have to do just to manage their herd then they stand around clucking their tongue at somebody that lives in a state with short seasons and is happy to get one or two deer each year big or small. I'd be more impressed if they had to use their one antlered deer tag and one doe tag to improve their herd then leave the field but frankly using feeders to lure deer in, then getting extra management or depredation permits is a bit disgenuine imho.

I could care less if the deer that I have tags for, 1 or 6, walk out in order and are all what I refer to as needing to go, or does... and I'd be out of tags when the big one walks by.

I shot my last "cull" one morning and 30 minutes later a 24 inch wide 8 point walks by... Oh well. No biggy.

You can cluck all you want about food plots, fertilizing honeysuckle, feeders, protein etc... while it'll bother you it won't bother me a bit.

I do feel for you folks that have short seasons though. Nothing quite like going out every weekend for 2-3 months and enjoying nature. I feel for folks that have the pressure to just kill asap and go back to mundane life.

Market hunters nearly killed deer out. Since those days, game departments have always told us what to shoot, be it bucks only, five inch spike, etc. Each state can do as they wish, but increasing the number of mature bucks in the woods, increases the quality of the experience.

Actually you folks in NY should lobby for the legislature to see what Kentucky did. The KDFW program has been a terrific success bringing a pretty weak herd to one of the top herds in the country. It took them 20 years but the herd in Ky is pretty incredible all without silly antler restrictions etc. You get one buck per year and depending on the zone multiple doe opportunities. The only changes I would like to see is the season to last a bit longer say two months and you can use bow, gun ,ml heck I don't care if you use a hammer just as long as once you limit out you go home. I think a longer overlapping season would be better giving more people more opportunity to score even if it meant less multiple tags. To my mind a longer opportunity would tend to make folks more selective and I see too many people killing 5,6,8 deer a year. I'd rather see more people get one or two deer than some guy getting five because he doesn't work and has time to lay out in the woods .

That last sentence is total BS

The last sentence is total BS for Scott. Others are YMMV.

But you don't realize the difference. I'm not telling you to do it my way, or to shoot dinks, but you are telling me to do it your way.

Liberal thinking to the CORE. I don't give a flying [bleep] what you want to shoot, why do you give a flying [bleep] what I want to shoot with antler restrictions?

As stated, buck/doe. Those are the 2 choices when it comes to killing deer.

These antler restrictions are the transgender bathrooms of the hunting world.

Then Pa is the Target of the of the hunting world. I love Target.

That was an epic goat phuuck!

I live in Steuben County NY, typical season sees about 10,000 whitetails taken in this county alone, about half bucks, half does. Been that way for a long time.
Last season, my buck weighed 182# dressed, a personal best. FWIW, taken on public land.
My 2 grandsons were able to take a pair of bucks and a pair of does.
Does this sound like like a condition that requires improvement?
Been an interesting string.
Steelhead gets the trophy for grasping the core of the AR/QDM big brother movement.

The finger lakes region is darn good hunting. I hunted near Ithaca for several years back in the mid-late 90's. Killed a buck every year on the first day. No monsters but five 8 points and a big 6 ain't bad. Last time we went my buddy and I each had an 8 point and a doe in the back of the truck and were on our way home by 9:00 am on opening day.

It has improved the deer herd in East Texas. All the meat hunters were killing anything that walked. Lot better antlers now.

But they all argue that its antlers are the only thing... never mind how many more deer are there, and how much healthier they are..... AND you can still kill a deer every year, at least one, and usually MUCH easier, IE have more chances...

But some must like to hunt all season just HOPING to get a single chance at anything legal.

Can't say "they" aren't as stubborn as I am though.

And it could well be that NY is already absolutely perfect on deer management and it took TX since the 70s at least, onward to around 2003 or 2004 or so to finally find something that was the best of all worlds.

New York is already requiring antler restrictions with the three inch spike minimum. Why don't you bitch that you can't kill a two inch spike?

My problem with a lot of so called trophy hunters is basically reading between the lines they advocate buying some acreage maybe doing some property improvement dump a few thousand lbs of corn out to concentrate the deer and manipulate their travel patterns. Then once they are concentrated let's shoot a bunch of the does and so called management bucks to satisfying their desire to shoot some deer but at the same time denigrate anybody else that shoots a 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 y.o. buck I.e. not a management buck then when they collect a larger buck hang it on the wall and tell everybody they are a trophy hunter. Meanwhile the guy 3 miles down the road that's not willing to spend the money on corn is wondering where all the deer have gone. I'm sorry that's just pretty much dove shooting over a baited field.

Corn? And the word trophy hunter?

Heck if you think you can bait a mature buck in with much of anything other than a hot doe, well you need to research a bit.

Its way more intensive/expensive than a few bags of corn...

Unless its a drought year, natural food sources win out every last time over supplemented...

I don't mind so much that people hunt that way, after all they are just deer. I hunt preserve birds on occasion and its sort of a set up situation. It's all fine as long its legal. I just sort of get tired of the attitude and vocalization of oh I'm a trophy hunter and anybody that shoots anything less than a 140 " 5 y/o buck is hurting the herd.

You don't need to bait bucks, if you have the doe, the bucks will be there.

Not difficult to understand.

And I still say south Texas wouldn't have NEAR the population of deer if people weren't feeding them.

Hate that Gov't is getting involved here.

I want to see healthy and bigger deer in our state. Better educational programs and responsible hunters would have the best results on managing a mature healthy population.

First its your Deer - Next its your Healthcare

Not just South Texas either. Texas as a whole IMHO.

Of course for the life of me I can't seem to get more does no matter what I do. But bucks.... I've usually got up to almost 20 hanging around the pasture during the summer....mostly not due to protein but the summer food plots that they graze on and live in.

Thats a generalization. First I tend to not score bucks, harvested or on the hoof. Though I tossed a tape on the largest I've ever shot a few years ago. Just for giggles. And it was larger than I thought.

But hurting the herd is shooting only the best in their breeding prime, while not maintaining the over all health. IE take enough females as needed. And take out the ones that appear to not have the best genetics. Body size, and antler size.

Anyone that says only shoot old bucks with a biggest score is nuts and not after the overall well being of the herd. They are simply horn hunters so to speak, what you call trophy hunters. And they might even qualify as harvesters since we are supposed to be killers actually. LOL.

I"m not and never will be a biologist. But I had the pleasure of guiding 3 months a year around Rocksprings TX and on a decently large place and was able to see how deer progress, does and bucks, and which ones typically breed, etc... so there is a LOT to "managing" IMHO.

Scott, I think... , just wants it all left alone, shoot whatever whenever, and I don't mean that in a bad way, just today the 4 point might trip his trigger, tommorrow a doe, and he might let the 10 walk, or it might be the other way around. T Zone too(I can't ever recall the right name there).

And there is really nothing at all wrong with it. Not what I want to do as I've said.

But then there are so many opinions out there, the bottom line to anything for me, if you aren't hurting the population then its not bad. If you can help the population its even better, again IMHO.

What I find funny though, is that I"ll take the first X catfish for the pan, but am selective about deer. Could care less about shooting a turkey ever again, they are boring to me. Love shooting pigs. Ain't excited about varmints.
Can't figure out why they let us feed deer, but not doves or anything migratory. But if you plant a crop its ok if it falls over. But don't feed out of a bag.

Why is it ok to plant a food plot for deer, but not put out a feeder?

Would any even believe we have out supplemental feed, that they use when they need it but not all the time... and that those places are NEVER hunted....just for the good of the herd.
Is it unfair to hunt a natural orchard or pin oak bottom? Its feed. Maybe not a big deal unless you were to go in and fertilize some of the plants, prune them for new and healthy growth etc...
How about my planting honeysuckle all over a couple acre patch, tossing wild grapes out all over to get more of them going and so on?

I"d almost think it would be all illegal to feed, or not. But then how else would you catch a fish ever?

Why do I like archery so much, but Scott, I believe, hates it.

Hmm, maybe i drank whatever Gus drinks tonight. Does anyone really know????

Whats called pure trophy hunters, especially those that go to ANY means... I despise. The ones that don't use the meat, won't shoot a cull or a doe, and then take pictures of the kill and plaster it all over the net to brag.

Read most of this thread, my comments are that antler point restrictions, according to every biologist I've talked with say the same thing, they don't work long-term. In the short term you can save an age class of bucks, but all you do is shift harvest/kill "up" one age class.

IMO, the huge dead elephant in the room is that these types of ideas should NOT be done at a legislative level. Whoever the arsehole is that took this to the legislature should be run out of town on a rail.

There is reason why we pay biologists, and NOT legislators, to manage game.

Whether or not you agree with APR's, you should oppose this bill strictly on that. The correct way to go about these type of changes is with your Game and Fish/DWR, not the legislature. This should be vetted with the hunting public, not left up to a legislature that probably doesn't have but a couple that even hunt, let alone know whats best for hunters or wildlife. How many of your legislators know jack chit about wildlife biology? How many have degrees in wildlife biology? How many buy a hunting or fishing license each year? Yet, you want these type of people to write and pass statute that deals with the States wildlife resources? I don't.

I will just tell you that having dealt with these issues, its best to NOT let the legislature get involved. Its much easier to change regulation back and forth, than something that is in statute.

I second this strongly - The same group of legislators that passed the NY Safe Act, are now attempting to control deer quality... go figure!

Yes. But a few can't seem to understand this. APR's are telling me and you how and what we can shoot.

Whether or not your "culling" or shooting the oldest deer, you're managing. Not letting Mother Nature run the course.

People can tell you what they want. They're not feeding deer for the betterment of the herd. They're feeding deer so there is more deer, so in turn they can shoot more deer.

Please clear these two items for the forum. Thomas O'Mara who introduced the AR Bill, according to the original post is from upstate NY which strongly opposed the safe act.

I also found where he is on record pledging to repeal the safe act. Which will be found here. He appears at Senate district 58. He is also a Republican, and a quick look into the safe act indicates as a group they strongly opposed the safe act.

http://scopeny.org/candidates-pledging-to-repeal-ny-safe-act/

Implying that Mr. O'Mara supports the Safe Act is obviously an injustice to his record of support of the 2A.

The Bill was introduced on March 16 of this year. What other legislators have signed on their support and what was their position on the safe act?

Addition: My error, the twitter post was March 16. The bill may have been introduced at an earlier date.

Addition 2: Thomas O'Mara

2016 National Rifle Association - Candidate Positions on Gun Rights 100%
2014 New York Shooters Committee on Political Education - Positions on Gun Rights: State Senate Republicans 91%
2014 New York Shooters Committee on Political Education - Positions on Gun Rights 100%
2012 National Rifle Association - Candidate Positions on Gun Rights 79%
2010 National Rifle Association Political Victory Fund - Positions on Gun Rights A
2008 National Rifle Association Political Victory Fund - Positions on Gun Rights A
2008 New Yorkers Against Gun Violence - Gun Control Score F
2006 National Rifle Association Political Victory Fund - Lifetime Score A
2006 New York State Rifle and Pistol Association - Positions on Gun Rights B+

Public Statements
Key Votes

For clarification, Tom O'mara, who proposed this antler restriction bill in the NY Senate, was against the Safe Act. I met with him in his office during one of the protests in Albany. He is a nice guy and has been about as good as one could hope for in a representative from NY. But he stepped in it on this one.

When AJG spoke about the legislature above, I believe he was referring to it generally and not to Mr. O'Mara specifically.

Like previously stated, The DEC went around and around on this issue for two years before deciding not to expand AR's to any new WMU's. It seemed the issue was settled. Their decision to promote the voluntary non harvest of yearling bucks was , I thought, a good compromise. But evidently the QDM folks won't be deterred. Now this bill has appeared out of the blue and it is obvious that some person or group got Mr. O'Mara's ear. Politics at its finest.

Perhaps, but his his comment that those who favored the safe act are also those who favor AR's included O'Mara by not excluding him.

Which is why I asked for the legislators who support AR's and if there is any indication they are in bed with those who support the Safe Act.

It is one thing to disagree with the QDM group and another to imply they are anti-gun.

You would actually be fine here since we don't have APR. We have a spread restriction.

BTW I agree that biologists, not legislators should make the rules...

Semantics. Not really much different.

But those aren't set by a government, they're set by your club. You can go somewhere else if you don't want to follow them. Correct?

Habitat management to attract wildlife is nothing new. Native Americans were doing it with fire when we came here.

Look guys, no matter where you are...you have to have a healthy doe herd. Bucks born make up 51%-does49% of the herd. When some of the north eastern states started passing out doe tags some years back, every body was happy, as I remember. So, what did they do? They went out and hunted hard for a day or two for a buck then went to shooting does. Some of the areas w/a high density were able to survive and are still good. The other areas that shot too many in low density areas now don't have any deer. Bucks don't have the babies. On one s.Texas ranch I'm familiar w/ has to kill 105-110 does a year just to keep the herd in balance. That sounds like a lot of does but it's really not when you consider the size of the place. If they get close to their number they don't worry about it. If they shot 200 or 250 does they would have problems...and soon. There's an old code in Texas that goes back to the 50's. You can shoot whatever you want at the deer lease...just don't under any circumstances kill a doe. That thinking pervaded even into the 90's in some of the hill country. So several of the areas in the hill country are still somewhat over populated to this day. The areas in the north east will rebound but it will take some time...they just have to lay off the does. Antler restrictions don't work...not even in Texas but taking care of your does...does powdr

ARs work because it helps the hunter realize that they don't have to shoot every antlered deer they see.

I can't see a spread restriction being very popular anywhere in the east or where deer are hunted in cover. Just about every deer I've killed I only had a window of seconds to see the deer id antlers and shoot. I'm just not successful getting them to turn head on so I can make sure they are 15" and not 14" or 14.5" and then get them to turn back broadside to present a clear shot at tne vitals. I can see a lot of folks say the heck with it if they start nailing people with $500 fines for shooting a deer that measures 1/2 inch too small.

Soon they'll tell you what gun and caliber you HAVE to shoot them with too.

Not so. In the absence of disease, predation, and/or competition, near any species can eat itself out of house and home ruining the habitat for many others as well.

We hear that argument from wild horse lovers out here all the time. Then the same crowd would be screaming for us to help all those poor starving horses out there.

My folks used to live among the highest density of deer in WVa. The forest supported a tree canopy and nothing else. Shrubs and forbs were nowhere to be seen and the population supported nothing but dinks.

Even with our low densities of deer and elk here in SE Oregon, they have an amazing impact on our plant communities. High fence a couple acres in our forest, come back in two years, and one will be amazed at the vegetation that can flourish with the absence of deer and elk.

Education not legislation.

Do you actually get satisfaction from getting a quick glimpse of a deer and realize its a buck and bang? I"m serious in that question. If my season was over that quickly I'd quit hunting.

But I understand what you mean.

of course...... there is a possibility, small though it might be, that a point or spread restriction COULD.. possibly, by chance, end up bumping the herd up and seeing more/larger/healthier deer and be able to watch and enjoy them some, instead of having to kill the first buck you see because lord forbid if you let him go your buddy might kill him or you might not even see another.

Yes I"m a smart ass.

When you are in Ak and the Moose of a lifetime pops out, what do you do? Stand around and admire him?

I suspect he gets more than a little actual satisfaction from Whitetails in the wood. Big wood Whitetail hunting rarely lends itself to I'll wait for the perfect shot, then take him in the head.

If I"ve already shot one that size, we take pictuers and let him walk...

Its kind of self policing without being regulated by the state.

I"m at the point on deer, where I"ll likely never kill a big buck again. I"ll get tehre on moose too, I"m just not that far along on the curve.

And after I killed the last moose in 2014, I still was out just watching looking and enjoying.

Big woods whitetails I only have experience of in the East Texas thickets, and I've yet to pop a round there at a deer that I didn't look at for some time first. Of course I don't have to kill a deer to be happy either.

BUT we are fortunate to also hunt a place where I can kill 4 deer, now 8 with my wife, without much effort, for the freezer. Lots of folks, unfortunatley, don't have that option.

Our local spread restriction, gives the option of killing a spike if you desire. That gives folks a quick meat option.

Much like moose, if you are a local, spike fork or 50 or over. Plus the bioligists there think the spike gene even in moose produces not as large a moose as paddle horn yearlings do eventually.

Obviously differing areas do things differently, and have different results though.

FWIW I"ve had either sex Elk tags. I"ve never killed an elk to this day. But I"ve passed legal but young promising bulls, looking for a cow mostly or a lifetime bull...Most would shoot the first legal one they saw.

What is the winter kill situation, if any, like in the proposed zones?

Please, we get it. You appreciate the outdoors and the hunting experience. It seems that by your repeatedly having to tell us, you imply you are special and the rest are lacking and hardly better than a bunch of bloodthirsty trigger pullers.

I've been to Ak twice, and while others who were also successful early made frantic efforts to get back home, I stayed the entire trip and enjoyed what I could of Ak. Helped out the outfitter a little getting ready for the next trip out and looked around. Doesn't make me special, but hey, I was liking Ak. I don't deserve a prize, but one was offered down the road.

Doesn't matter that you personally can kill 4. Most Eastern hunters can't, and the thread is about AR's in the East, so they best become good at what they can. And making quick decisions often is part of the game. Quitting hunting because the rules and opportunities don't suit them is a weak option.

For the most part, we agree on AR's, but getting off your high horse wouldn't be a bad idea.

I know you just want to be the best. I get it. Am I being a smart azz?

You seem to have trouble distinguishing the fact that not everyone is looking for antlers. Some are looking to fill a freezer and can't shoot a doe.

Not every state lets you shoot a pile of deer or has a long season to allow you to be picky about what deer you hunt if you're looking to eat them.

Keyboards must not convey.

If you only knew me in person, you'd not offer the words you do.

So we'll just leave it at that.

I don't know WHAT THE F*CK is so complicated about 'If you don't want to shoot a dink, don't shoot a fu*king dink' just don't tell me that I can't or shouldn't shoot one.

There are 2 choices when deer hunting, buck or doe, period.

You decide the size you want to shoot. Leave me the f*ck alone to do the same.

I'm new here,but not to deer hunting in NY. Lord willing this fall will be my 37th season. Been passing up 1.5 and 2.5 year old bucks for over 20 years because I just wanted more challenge to my experience. Been mocked, laughed at and called an arrogant trophy hunter.
I have several thoughts on antler restrictions.
First I would love to see more mature bucks around to hunt. I feel it would add more excitement to hunting not just in bigger racks. More competition between bucks and a shorter more intense rut. By shorter I mean not having the breeding of does extending into a good part of the winter and therefore having as many late born fawns.

Second I don't like government intrusion and not crazy about them sticking there nose in to anything more than necessary. I'm not convinced that this is really a plot to discourage more hunters so as to " get the guns". You know the rest. Are there people out there with this agenda? Sure, are! I think this is more about getting an older age class of bucks out there to hunt than an antigun plot. I also know guys who have a limited time to hunt for meat and don't begrudge them anything. But in a couple of years the group of ,then legal bucks will be as big as the bucks that are legal now. There should be as many opportunities then at legal bucks.

Third I have had many a hunter say to me with disgust "you can't eat the horns ". I have one question for them. If you had a hot doe bring a group of bucks into range say a nice 1.5 year old 6 pt.at 30 yards and a big 4 year old 10 or 12 pt.at say 80 yards how many hunters would HONESTLY say that they would ignore the horns and take that easy young buck. Some would I have no doubt but not a majority.

My late father used to say that if you want to see the character of a man see what kind of a deer hunter he is. There will be some bad things that come of antler restrictions if approved. There are bad things about deer hunting now. Poaching, trespassing, greed etc.... IMO allowing these yearling bucks to live a year or two more will be much more positive than not.