They harvest 300,000 whitetail deer in Pennsylvania. But not enough boone and crockett bucks to make the top ten states according to American Hunter magazine.

And so?

The two categories may be in conflict. From my experience there, any legal deer is in constant mortal peril.

They shoot some bigger bucks down near the Ohio border in agricultural areas, but the just don't seem to grow that big up in the mountains.

they need to adjust their management.

20.5 hunters per square mile in PA. That's what needs to be adjusted.

make spikes the only legal size to harvest. 2 to 3 years.

I will say this, Pa. deer hunting used to be fun... Now it is all about size.. This trophy thing is ruining all hunting.. I am sorry, I like nice animals , but trophy hunting is ruining the sport.. In fact in most cases it already has... In Pa. most private ground was open to hunting 40 years ago.. With the Texas pay hunting and promotion of big stuff... That has all changed, now private land is locked up, and instead of enjoying the hunt, it is all about horn size.. I miss the good old days...

wyo coyote- they shoot a lot of big ones in pa?

The PA Game Commission introduced antler restrictions in 2002. There are some real four and five year old slammers running around now. As for B&C bucks PA will probably never be in the top 10 states due to high hunter numbers and the resultant hunting pressure, but imho there is nothing that compares to chasing trophy bucks in the PA mountains....

We shoot some great bucks, it just most of us don't care what they score.

What American Hunter knows about Pa Whitetails was probably thoroughly covered in a couple paragraphs....

Anyway, thank God for big favors, but there are Hogs out there.






]





And others are in waiting....

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/index.ssf/2016/11/caught_on_trail_cams_pennsylva.html



What most know Re Pa Whitetails takes less than a couple....

I can't express my agreement in this.


The situation described has led to my deer hunting being more productive at finding
trespassers than at finding deer. On any prime day, I will find a trespasser. I may not see any deer.

And the trespasser part?
We have owned t b at land for 60 years. It has been posted for about 20.
Because we got locked out of most other places we hunted. So, we had to keep ours, for ourselves.
It sucks.

The Pa big woods have Hogs that die of old age and most are not willing to spend the effort to go and get them. They normally will not give themselves up to one sitting over a food plot.

Yet, you just agreed with WCH. You got locked out, so you locked out others. Yet the Big Woods has millions of free acres that few get too far back into.
I have a small 56 acres. Anyone that wants to hunt it can. The reason being I know what it feels like to be locked out. 7 of us lease 1000 acres. Guess what? I rarely see any on it that shouldn't be there; if they are neighbors that have been locked out, I let it slide.

Definitely. Gotta be honest I never seen anything over 160, but ive seen quite a few of those...and theyre either still runnin or died of old age as you said. Thats all I hunt is public big woods.

Gotta disagree though on one point. You dont have to go back far to find them some times. Especially if theres log road access. But them suckers do know how to hide. One year still huntin I pushed one out of the laurel 5 ft from me and he ran over the knob, never did get a shot off. But ya, the big woods is got em. Every bit as big as farm country, just not as many.

Pa,

Most are not willing to even walk a mile back in on old logging roads. Drive back if they can yes, but if the gates are closed and they have to walk back, you will cross paths with few.

This is exactly correct. This past fall marked my 70th season in the mountainous region of NC PA.
There are more trophy class bucks today than at anytime in my lifetime in that region.
Yet hunter numbers have diminished considerably, many of the old camps don't even open for deer season.
Thats true thruout the NC region. Twenty five years ago you wouldn't find a place to stay without having a reservation well in advance of opening day buck. Today you can stay about anywhere you like with no reservations at all.
What we have is more whiners carping over what they perceive as being wrong, and a whole lot less serious hunters
taking advantage of the good opportunities.

Yup, believe me, I dont see many hunters. Last year I sat 10 yrds off a loggin road and the only hunters I saw were drving back that road. One got stuck and had to be pulled out. Didnt get a deer, but after they got it out I saw 6 more doe.....lol. People dont realize how deer interact with us. Pressures gone, even for an hour or so and they go about their business.

Wish I could get back as far as I used to. No more running ridge after ridge. Lyme killed that for me. Do have a cousin that wants to hang with me this yr maybe. Might be able to get him to do the heavy work for showin him a few things. We'll see.

It takes a different mind set to hunt the Pa big woods. You are going to see few Deer, but I have friends who have camps up there and what shows up on their trail cams is scary. There are giants that live there. I've seen one driving the back roads spotlighting when they were chasing and if you said he came from over the border non would doubt you.

For many of us, a fair chase hunt, the comaderie, catching up with relatives, and some venison in the freezer adds up to a great season. 300,000 deer taken sounds like a lot of happy hunters, B&C utterly irrelevant to most of them.
While I'm on a roll, a significant number of those high scoring deer come from farmed whitetails. I have found it interesting to note the general lack of knowledge about the sheer number of whitetail farms scattered around the country.

A few years ago I was after a 170" Typical. I was keeping tabs on him before the season but during the season he stayed off the property I have permission to hunt. They killed him on the last day of Rifle on a neighboring property. He gross scored 172.
I missed one in my younger days that somebody else killed. That one scored in the 160's.The biggest we've killed here in my group was my son's 132" 11 point.

TOTALLY. I’ve nver measured a buck’s antlers; to me a trophy is about experience. Inches are awesome and I’d love a monster some day but that isn’t my measure of a hunt.

My Pa trophy from 2016 when gophergunner graciously hosted me. In the mountains stunningly gorgeous public land didn’t see a ton of orange.

Many of the big bucks live in SW Pa, including urban zones in which some are Archery only. Most of the big boys are nocturnal, and cross busy roads like they don't exist. Home work and hard scouting for deer is the same no matter where you hunt, careful stand placements early with minimal woods disturbance keeps the deer there...just so heavy cover and food is available.

I've shot a lot of book bucks in Pa, both bow and gun...but pass up 30ish legal bucks every year. Watch the deer ticks they're thick this year, and getting worse every year.

Battue those are some real big ones!!!

I know nothing of eastern whitetail hunting really. I do like those pics!! what kind of bear season do you predict??

Pa sucks when it comes to big Whitetails....

http://www.gameandfishmag.com/hunting/deer/2017-pennsylvania-trophy-bucks/










There is one I can't find that will make you curl your lip and go rub your forehead on a tree.

I think this Bear season will be excellent. It doesn't seem like we even dent the population anymore. A lot of people on the northern tier are crying there are way too many Bears.

Battue,

I meant I couldn't find an easy to express my agreement.


You and I have disagreed on this before.
My hunting in Pa. has always meant hunting private land, owned by family, friends and neighbors.
It's not the big woods, Bedford County, but it has been a destination for the city folk.
Point being, I live here, this is where I like to hunt. PGC policies, and other factors have significantly changed
something I hold dear. And I don't like any of it.

For those who hunt the northern tier, I am glad that you are having success. Those are some beautiful bucks.
My hunting is out the back door style. After work, anytime I have time. I would prefer seeing more deer, big bucks
aren't my goal. Meat, and success for my kids trump a buck I wouldn't mount, or put in the paper. (Common here in deer season.

As for posting, I am unhappy posting. It's necessary to be able to hunt your own land here. We have game lands around us, unfortunately
they bring in many of the people who trespass. They drive by that gate at the end of a little hollow, and wonder "what's it like up there?".
I have been told that. When I was talking to a guy from York, about why he was there.
On posted property. After he crossed the first1/4 mile piece of posted property.

Bear numbers should be good.
I think the herd is continually growing, and we have had a few bad seasons due to weather issues.
In my immediate area, there are not a lot of bear. But the numbers are rising.
Some in this area have a lot of bear problems. Mostly those closest to certain mountains.

http://www.gameandfishmag.com/hunting/hunting_big-game-hunting_pa_1005_02/

My last 2, not big, but considering my health I am happy...





I used to get some decent ones, hopefully I will again.





Every once in awhile id get a chunky one

Most times id be still hunting all day. Sometimes though id sit here...



Or here...



And if theyre still ruttin, here...



And pass up a few like this...




But hunting public big woods, ya gotta be willing to "hunt the hunters". Adapt. I can guarantee if you hunt the big woods, you have a chance at a nice one every time youre out there. Theyre there, and they know their bedroom a whole lot better than you do yours.

I dont think ill ever hunt private land. The big woods is just in my blood.

we have more deer than we have had in 20 some years and the bucks are much bigger on average, literally best of both worlds. Had a 150” class buck within 20 yards last archery season, didn’t work out. There is one I have seen this year with my own eyes that will be in the mid 160”s at least( mainframe 7x7 with junk all over). I’m in nw pa, wont hear me complain.

MM

My point is posted land begets posted land. Your neighbor posts, his neighbor posts and then the one down the road posts and eventually you post also. I get it and it is the reason I'm on a lease. The Big Woods is a three hour drive, so I don't hunt there all that often. This place is an hour drive and in a county at one time I could pretty much hunt all of it. Then the posted signs slowly crept in, until pretty much all of it is posted. Oh you can ask nice, but you get tired of the same old. "No, we like to keep it for family." You know that story, right?

The 1000 acre lease is part of 2200 that got split up when a coal company went bankrupt.

Funny trespass story. I visited my own little piece one day and knowingly moved onto land owned by one who lived on it. He saw me and let out a yell for me to stay put and came walking towards me with a purpose. He arrived and wanted to know why. I told him I was hunting and I didn't think it would be a problem. "Well, it is" was the reply. I then asked if he ever hunted "over there" and the answer was yes. "Well, if this is a problem with you, then that is a problem with me." "You the Neil boy?" "Yes." "Why didn't you say so?" "I just did." We had laugh and both went on our way.

I remember hunting deer in PENN back in the 80s, getting to your stand before dawn, and as the sun came up count the orange coats around you.

That is a completely different culture. If I found another hunter on my land I'd be approaching with a leveled barrel after I had called the State Police.

Those days are long gone in most parts. Especially the Big Wood. About 6 years ago I hunted the Big Wood of the ANF on the first day. The only orange I saw was leaving the truck and on the return. After the second day, it was even less.

Arn't you the bad ass. You point one at some of the Back Woods boys from here, you best be ready to use it or have the State Police call EMS for you.

I am.

They are everywhere....and you never know. Shooting somebody over walking on your land proves you are not all that bright either. Of course the stupid ones do require extra care.

Yeah, I really wouldn't kill or risk death myself over trespassing.

Got 2 dairy farms in the family in north central PA. The larger farm finally got posted when a bullet came thru the milking parlor, took out a vacuum line, one afternoon. Shooter was a stranger that had not asked permission or introduced himself.
Smaller farm got posted the day after 2 of us were setting up to still hunt a small wood towards each other. Three trucks pulled up, over a dozen guys jumped out, to drive the same woods. Again, noone asked permission, and we didn't know any of these guys.
About 1400 acres of ground got posted.....in self defense.

Typical Pa hunters, typical Amish entitlement attitude too.

I agree that inches isnt everything but better and better bucks are getting killed each year, the one Battue took last year being a prime example, believe he is being modest in not sharing 😀...

The posting of land was inevitable IMO...but I truly dislike the lease gig.

As far as the big woods goes, I can only speak to SGL 13 and 57 where I used to spend a good bit of time. When the GC decided to increase the anterless kill rate many years ago, this area got hit hard. Now there is much less hunter participation. A few good deer taken every year though. Population should be back to normal in a few years hopefully as habitat improves and number of hunters is on decline. I think the anterless take needed to increase to help the habitat. I just wish the anterless take would slow in the big woods areas and give out more tags for the predominstely agriculture/small woodlot areas, as some still hold too many deer IMO.

I was dead set against the whole QDM program when Dr. Ault took the state down that path in 2002, but I've come to realize how skewed the deer herd really was. In the pre 2002 days, if we didn't see 45 deer the first day, it was a very slow opener. That being said, you might see 45 deer, and if you were lucky you'd find one year and a half old 120 lbs. spike out of all that. I've got a whole crate full of spike buck antler sets down in the basement as I write this. Now when I get back to camp to hunt, I see less deer, but the bucks that are harvested are much more respectable, and the forest (Clearfield County) is in much better shape from not being over-grazed. I'll never be a trophy hunter, but I do recognize the benefit of the current management system. I hunt all public land in the Allegheny Forest. Beautiful country, and a challenging hunt. As for hunting pressure, I don't think it's heavier than in years past. We tend to see the guys from the neighboring camps,but few others.

We had a shooting here in this county a few years ago. Tresspas conflict..it was all kinda sketchy. A neighboring land owner put himself in control of.adjoining lands. Self.appointed sort of thing I guess. When some fellas went in to hunt,there was a confrontation and the self appointed custodian of said lands shot.a.young fella. Not mortally, but the father of the boy shot and killed the other man. Aint worth it. I love my hunting that's for sure. Not adopting.a kill or be killed policy.

The one I shot last year was a prize, but only honorable mention compared to the ones I posted.

The land around GL57 just may be the most beautiful part of Pa.

I'm hoping none of the gun control people are reading about land owning deer hunters wanting to hold a person at gunpoint waiting for the state police to arrive .
Have you ever actually killed or shot anyone ?
Over a deer or a piece of woods ?
Chase him-call the police -get his take number , but level a loaded high powered rifle at someone can only go no good place fast .
Good luck to all the deer hunters in PA .
Soup

we have 550 acres in our club. we see a cpuple 140 plus deer every year and i kiled a 150 2 years ago. big bucks sre in Pa hell that one photo battue posted was killed 20 minutes from me. most guys in Pa dont want the state to be known as a whiettaile hotspot. once it does we know what will happen tv shows, less places to hunt..yada yada yada.


our club is very tough on trespassers there are no breaks we catch you you get arrezted, if not beaten as well.

caught some guys jacklighting last year helped escort them out of the field...damned woodchuck holes had them falling down.

we have confiscated blinds, treestands and even a yeti cooler. always leaving a note in place as to where the items cpuld be fpund and pkease contact us as we would like to chat. to this day noone has called to claim thier stands or blinds and such

If there is a downside to owning land and hunting in PA itis the amish, they chose to ignore boundary lines and bag limits, the whole clan hunts till every tag is filled, and the bag limits are achieved, the scorched earth method of hunting .

I went twice...saw more ticks than deer. Even got to dig one out of me later. Really like the state and everyone was very nice but no luck for me. Did get to spend some time with gophergunner and efw and experience hunting out of state. I think I needed to hunt more than a few days at a time and maybe take advantage of more scouting. Tough to do away from home though. Was nice to see the whole state happy about opening day and everyone treating it like a holiday

We gotta match up again some time Matt.

Would love to

When I was young I hunted mostly private land. Now I'm close to 100 % public. I'm happiest in either the Loyalsock SF or SGL 13. If I lived closer those would be the only places I'd hunt in PA.

Mainly Sproul and Susquehannock. Sometimes Tiadaghton. Depends what im seein where. I get around.





Not sure how much time you spent with gophergunner, or when, but sometimes its best to hold off til 2nd week. But definitely hit it for a week if you can. I try to do 2 weeks, but most times when the hunters leave tuesday I kill on the 3rd day. Scoutings good, but you can do a lot with google, just sayin. Good luck if ya ever head this way again!

Yep. If Dad and I approach a trespasser, one goes up and talks.
The other flanks them and leans on a tree, maybe 30 yardso away.
No overt threat, just a posturing thing.
We have found that tactic to result in a more civil encounter.
We don't get law involved, unless it is a multiple repeat offender.

Battue,
You perfectly described the posting deal, and it sucks.
We used to hunt small game almost anywhere we wanted. Without asking.
It was expected, really. When we encountered a farmer, often as not, we caught heck
for not hunting deer there. And we were supposed to kill as many deer as we wanted. (We mostly deer hunted on a deputy wardens farm, no monkey business)
People moved in, the posting started.
The final straw was the herd reduction. People started trying to protect "their" deer.

"...if we didn't see 45 deer the first day, it was a very slow opener. That being said, you might see 45 deer, and if you were lucky you'd find one year and a half old 120 lbs. spike out of all that. I've got a whole crate full of spike buck antler sets down in the basement as I write this."

Yep. That's pretty much how things were in the north central by the late 80s, where I've hunted since the 60s. Back then (60s), deer were still scare in "my" area. Things got better, as far as deer numbers were concerned. Took HR and AR to get bigger bucks.

I joke that there's a 30 gallon steel trash can around here with decades worth of fours and sixes in it, maybe a wee eight or two? Only one spike. Now and then a wall hanger taken there years ago, but 8 to 12 inch dinks were the norm year after year.

Since about 2005 or so, far nicer bucks than what we once had where I hunt and more of 'em each year. Deer numbers are about back to where they were when HR started. Works for me, nice to know such bucks are around, whether or not I ever get a whack at one, or not.

True that hunters aren't coming to the NC like they once did. Part of that, is the greater numbers of deer in counties closer to their homes, than was once the norm, back when they were still heading north years ago. Hunters headed to the NC decades ago and built camps, because that's where the deer were. Deer are darn near everywhere, now.

Looks like another great year for PA deer hunting. Good luck to all.

Hey Yobuck, If you ever want some company out there on those lonely N/C acres feel free to PM me. I have given the PA rifle season three tries over the past 20 years so far and have not seen a buck during the season, and few does either. The easternmost region is not looking good from my experience, at least on public ground. It's about the only good thing I can say about New Jersey in comparison... we still do have lots of deer in most places, less than we used to due to liberal bag limits and long seasons, but still far more than I have been able to find on the west side of the river. Willing to be educated though!

Sweet Jesus

That doesn't happen here, idiots are found everywhere but mostly yelling from ridgetops ......

Just so the rest of the world knows that American Hunter Magazine has their finger on the pulse of Pa Whitetails....


If you have to have mass, you would probably pass on this one....




Just a little funk....



A lot of funk....

I've played this before. Bucks are not big, but it was Deer hunting that most don't try in Pa.

Cool video.

Hunt clubs and leases are ruining hunting in this country everywhere. I fear we're going to end up like Europe where only the rich can do it. When I was stationed in Alabama, the cheapest place I could find locally was $2000 per year. To shoot a deer? I was shocked. Crazy. The public areas were over run with people. I just didn't hunt for those 4 years.

I grew up in McKean county, and left for the military in 1988. Back then, according to the PAGC statistics, 80% of the deer were taken on the first day of the 2 week buck season, so if you didn't shoot the first legal one you saw, you weren't going to get one that year. See one with a single spike 3 inches long? Bang. Meat in the freezer. Thats what most people I knew did. The deer were huge, but racks small. I didnt care. I've never killed one bigger than a little basket rack. In fact, I've never passed on a legal deer anywhere. I'm not opposed to looking for a big rack, more power to you, but when I hear people start talking about antler scores, it isn't for me, and to the non-hunting (not anti-hunting) public, I think it only hurts our image.

My 2 cents, and with as much.

Good to see you on here Dube. I wouldn't doubt we've chewed some of the same turf. Our camp's in Clearfield County on Boone Mountain between Sabula and Penfield off Mountain Run Road. The hunting's definitely different now, but it's for the better. I was lucky enough to be on the mountain a few years back when the youngster in the cabin next to us shot his first deer, a very respectable 6 point that probably went at least 165 lbs. He was very excited, and I really enjoyed his experience. Another hunter was "hooked" on that day. That deer came by me trotting, and I saw antlers, but couldn't verify if it was a legal buck. I was very glad he got it in stead of me. The excitement on his face, and his memories of that day were well worth me passing that shot.

Same here, on enjoying the joy of others. Especially the youngsters.

Since the mid-2000s when we began to regularly see nicer bucks than we'd been used to seeing, several of the local kids have scored on some decent bucks. Then there was the advent of Mentored Youth Hunting. One local kid killed a small spike with a crossbow his first year, think he was eight? Kid had been tagging along with his dad for a few years prior to that. So when the mentored youth thing started, he was ready to go..

Told him he needed to shoot a fork horn the following year, then a six, an eight and so on. He asked his dad if I was serious, dad said "sure". ;o)

I think he's 15 now and has taken several baldies and two pretty nice bucks since. One with a compound, one with a rifle. He's more than hooked now.

Into my sixth decade of hunting and in my opinion, these are the best of times in PA. Deer numbers have rebounded pretty well in most areas and there are far more decent bucks around now, than at any time in my experience.

At one time you would see lines of over 30-40 come walking thru the wood and count 100 in a day. Spot 200-300 in fields in the evening. Doe season could get scary. Pow, pow, pow pow, pow, pow pow pow, pow. And it went on and on for perhaps the first hour. Close and far. Would taper off and then pick up again, but it never stopped all day. The whiz of bullets was not rare. We had too many Deer.

Damned fine deer!

Sometimes I sit and ponder those days. It almost seems surreal now. But I have to remind myself that that's really the way it was.

When I tell some that I’ve seen over 100 in a day and easily 3-400 shots on the Monday Doe opener, they don’t believe it.

Addition: I thought it common then, but they would come thru in what we called strings. All lined-up in single file on the March. 30-40 at a time and often another string not far behind. The Does had been given a pass for 2 weeks and come Monday it was a shooting gallery. Sure kept a kids interest peaked. You could also practice your sneak, because another wasn’t that far away.

Seeing a Black Bear was something to brag on and a Turkey even rarer.

Closer to home we had few Deer, but Wild Pheasants on almost every farm, overgrown field or RR track edge. Ruffed Grouse in crazy numbers. Big Woods Rabbits instead of these runt Cottontails.

Received a call the other day that the beetles were done chewing on last years Deer and another that I had put off taking. Picked them up today. Since this guy does such a great job and is very reasonable I will post them up. Beetle Pro on Rt 422 outside of New Castle.

Those beetles do some good work!

Awesome work! beautiful buck.

A guy just posted this evening a buck from Clinton he got last season....

What a Deer!!!! Thanks for posting it.

There are parts of Clinton that a reasonable man won't set foot on. The topo lines are so close together in some places they look like a magic marker made them. Another place Deer die of old age.

Yup. Cameron too.

Yup, I hunt those areas most times if health allows. This deer didnt come from there though, from what I hear. Hear it came from McElhattan. I know the guy who got it comes from Loganton. Not as rough as where I hunt, and a bit better feed. Supposedly it scored 188 5/8.

Camerons different. Not near as much feed. Better chance for a bear than deer there. But, its got certain spots that produce, just gotta get to em.

I use to hunt bear in Cameron county. I really like the country. I need to go back for a day to revisit it. Nice.

That's a dream buck for sure hick. You know the shooter?

It's official. Pa is a big buck state. I've not seen personally anything like the one pahick posted. Doesn't mean they aren't here. Shot the biggest 8 of my life last year,and saw seed bucks that very well may smoke it this year. This is the most excited I've been for deer season in a lot of years. Feel like a kid again.

😁

I deal with a lot of people in N.E. Pa up above Scranton. Here's a few pictures, but no monsters.





This one is nice. Notice the velvet hanging off of his horns.

A few more.



This picture is just cool.

Nice pair of bucks.

Not much to complain about around here. I look forward to rifle season every year.

Thanks and since photobucket is back, I found this one.

The thing is..... I liked seeing 100 deer a day and knocking down a four point and a doe or two every year.

I have no interest in antlers. I still, mostly, shoot the first legal buck I see. It's just now that's usually an 8 point......

But they end up in the same box in the garage as the spikes did.

I do miss the days of easy land access though.

I love hunting in Clinton county

-Jake

An anonymous donor asked me to post this 2015 Pa archery Buck for them.

This thread is great. A friend and I are going to try hunting the state forest down around Coudersport this year after an almost 20 year absence. We've 4 wheeled back in there recently and seen some good bucks and a few bears. My only concern is killing one way back in and trying to get it out, but according to that video Battue posted I guess boneing them out in the field is legal, which makes it way more plausable to hunt deep.
BTW - last time I hunted PA I saw 78 deer opening day, but I doubt 2 were bigger than my dog. That was 88 or 89 I think. The trick, we were told, was to scope the head of every deer you saw because if you didn't you could miss your one opportunty at the famed Pennsylvania 11 pointer (our term for the goat horned spikes we usually hung on the pole). My how times have changed.

My son's 2014 PA public land buck.

Missed this, sorry. No I dont know him. But if ya need it for some reason PM me, ill get it for ya. Hes on a facebook group im on.

Nice one! And nice little gun hes got there.

Not necessary. Just curious if you had the back story. That is a brute.

Very nice pair of bucks, battue.

i will say the whitetails in Arizona are petite. their body size and antlers are both small. they live in really rugged country.

Heat makes for smaller weights and cold for larger.

As long as they are being hunted for food, 300,000. Seems like huge number but compared with the rate at which they reproduce, it’s not a big deal.

When I lived in NJ hunting in PA with a rifle was the thing to do , I loved hunting that state.

Buy a license and go hunt Deer on a couple million acres of open land. You can get back in and not run into many hunters. No applying for units when it comes to Buck, nor getting turned down for where you want to hunt. Play your cards right and a NR can get a Doe tag for a good area. Everyone should love hunting this State.

Any of you ever hunt state game lands in Wayne or Susquehanna counties ? I'm only 15 minutes from the Wayne county border and state game land 299 and have been thinking of giving it a try.

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/HuntTrap/Hun...WMU%20Deer%20Harvest%20Map%202016-17.pdf

Hey I just noticed your rifle efw. You have good taste in shootin irons. What is she chambered in?

My Ottersix. It likes most bullets. Currently digging 165 grain A-Bonds.

This one stepped out in front of a gal in a minivan last year right near the Indiana/Cambria line.

His is 257 bob

Anybody have a pic of that giant non typical that was found dead in Potter last winter? That thing was unreal but I can't seem to find a pic of it.

Here is one I only saw once before the season and not during. Check out the hams and shoulders. His nickname most definitely wasn't Tiny.

Speaking of dead. Looked down from higher up and thought I had caught this one in his nest. Put the scope on him, but something didn't look right. I'm guessing he had been there since the previous day.

This?
https://www.wideopenspaces.com/enormous-pennsylvania-dead-head-gets-found/

Yes thank you

Found dead in Potter county

Agree 1000%.

Yes, I also agree that the emphasis on antlers only has changed deer hunting for the worse. Like everything else in America today big money and commercialization has co-opted this great sport.

These guys will post a picture of a nice 8 point and ask if they should shoot or pass on it. If they give the least hint that they'd shoot it, or God forbid that they actually did, they get attacked by the trophy hunting crowd for not "letting it go". My hunt, my choice-STFU and do what suits you-I'll do what suits me, as long as it's legal.

Heck I shot a 6 pointer last season. But it was pretty nice.

This is why you have to be flexible in choosing your hunting grounds. 30-40 years ago you could see 50+ Deer per day here. It couldn't support them then and the habitat can't support many today. This would be in one of the traditional mountain counties. Either Clinton or Cameron and isn't good Deer grounds by any measure. What will hold them over the winter? Ferns? These pics represent a large percentage of that country today. If you are going to hunt this kind of cover then accept you are going to see few Deer.

Because of it, for decades Deer have been migrating South to better feed. And the better feed is often on privately owned land. It is going to take something extraordinary-extensive timbering would be the best, a big burn perhaps second-to have them repopulate much of our traditional hunting areas.

If one hunts were there are a lot of Deer, then they have increased opportunity to pick, pass and choose. In these pics one best think about shooting now.
There are parts of the ANF that have big large tracts of timber cuts and probably some other areas across the Northern Tier. If I wanted to hunt the North country, that is were I would be.


http://s49.photobucket.com/user/patraildogs/slideshow/Sproul%2010K%20Training/?albumview=slideshow

lots of hunters treat hunting like a football game. highest score wins and at any cost. the "bone hunter" mentality is what i call it. thats fine if thats your thing but its not mine. and the PAGC is playing into that mentality. deer hunting has not been the same in PA since they implemented combined seasons, antler restrictions and increased doe licenses. is it better or worse? depends on your mentality about hunting. i would like to shoot a big buck but i also like to shoot does and even spikes when they were legal. to me its more about the heritage of hunting and the self reliance aspect than the biggest buck. i could shoot a lot bigger bucks on my property around my house but really don't enjoy hunting in suburban settings. if thats your thing, go for it. its not mine. as i've said many times before, i'll take a nice doe in the mountains over a nice buck in the burbs. speaking of which, i saw a real hog in the field across from my house a few weeks ago. nice to look at. maybe i'll find his sheds. wait, does that make me a bone hunter???

Actually there isn't really any difference, some of the roads will have you in and out of both counties.
Cameron is a very small county, surrounded by Potter, Elk, Clearfield, and Clinton.
Almost no farmland to speak of in either county especially back from the main highways.
Ridges are very steep in both counties, especially along the valleys with the larger streams.
When I was young, our camp was in what is now the Quehanna Wliderness area along with many others.
Today our property adjoins the wilderness area not far from Driftwood.
Im frankly of the opinion that there were multiple reasons for the major reduction in the deer herd that got underway in the late 70s in that area. And it has much to do with making room for the expansion of the Elk herd which is now much larger than most think it is.

Horse shiit, the primary reason was the hunters. The GC gave out the tags like candy and the hunters didn't have enough common sense to lay off the sugar as the herd obviously dwindled. We did the killing. “Damn GC. Hey there are two more, load up”.

Decent woods surrounded by farm land. Compared to the above if you are a Deer were would you want to live?

You are 100% right about hunters doing the damage.
PGC loves to $ell tags, and these idiots kill everything they can.
Our numbers have been seriously reduced here. And they still $ell
big numbers of doe tags. Now we have CWD, and we have DMAP tag
numbers that more or less match the doe tags. They all get sold.

I have done a lot of damage myself in the past. But now I hate to kill a doe,
and usually only do if I am hunting on a farmer who wants them killed.



I got a survey about CWD. Judging by the questions, I think they would like to annihilate the
deer in this area. And I don't mean reduce. But like Wisconsin tried.
They asked questions like, How would you feel about a short term elimination of the deer in a CWD area,
to eradicate the disease. Followed by a repopulation. (I was going to use quotes. That's not an exact quote)

My biggest complaint with the GC is they don’t like rifles and bullets. They however do love the quiet twang of the bow and now the crossbow.

Yep, the only thing they like about black powder is the tag $.

When they finally gave us an early season crack at deer, it is doe only.
And it legalized in-lines. After a year or two of in-line ads in the regulation.
Who got paid for that?

Then we saw ads for crossbows. And got a season! Interesting?

In the 60’s and 70’s the season bag limit was one (either buck or doe) and done....

Battue,and so do the poachers,at least where I hunt/live!

No doubt, they can kill them in your front yard at night and you probably wouldn't know it happened. However, the point is the GC favors bow/crossbow hunting. It used to be hunting with a bow was much more difficult. Now I know people who buy a crossbow, practice for a couple days and go out and shoot a Deer. Again, Buck or Doe.


As far as "it used to be": Really the vast majority that complain about how we want it to be are the old farts. The vast majority of the new crew are more than happy with our current Deer situation. They are willing to spend the time and hunt. And many are happy to hunt and pass on certain Deer that are not up to what they want. In fact while shooting sporting, I talked with one of them today about all of this. He says I can get a Doe for meat if I absolutely want it. Other than that I'm want to prove to myself I can fool nice Bucks.

Sometimes I think they are more into the actual hunt than many of the those who are unhappy it is not the old days. And we best face it, the chance of the old days coming back are slim and their memories will be just as important to them as ours are to us. We can either make them ourselves, in the present, or bitch and moan of how we wish it was.

I love the current state of deer hunting in PA. No complaints and I think the PGC is doing a great job.

I dont know what kinda schit youre smokin, but keep at it, you got one hell of an imagination.

battue, ill disagree, heavily, with your statement. And by the same measure, your pictures arent representative of the Sproul overall. Im 48, been going up all my life, lived in Coudersport for 4 yrs. I heard for years now, and got into so many debates about north of 80 south of 6 im sick of it. No offense to you at all. Unless you were one of those I went back and forth with on another forum. The carrying capacity of the land held great numbers, and still could today. You can stand on almost any ridge and look upon numerous cuts. That said, Clinton kicks the schit out of Cameron for big woods habitat. You never had the amount of logging in Cameron that you did in Clinton. I have to clarify though that southern Clinton has some excellent farmland habitat that rivals some of the best southern PA farmland. So im talking strictly big woods here.

Im not gonna pull out old DMAP enrollment data to try to prove my point. Im beyond arguing anymore. My broken body doesnt have it in it anymore, but sometimes I wish I could have hosted some of the naysayers at camp. From Emporium to Port Allegany to Mansfield to Lock Haven and back. Theres hardly a place that cant hold a good number of deer. A little south, Moshannon can be iffy but even Quehanna habitat isnt real bad(FLIR studies be damned). In my lifetime, we've never had winter kills without prolonged ice cover. If the habitat was schit, 93 and 96 woulda done em in.

Pahick,

I will somewhat go along with your experience since I haven’t actually hunted that area for sometime. Used to hunt outside of Sinamahoning when the Deer were there. Up and down Cooks run for the most part. Cow Hollow, Savage Mountain, Dark Hollow, and a couple others I can’t recall right now. Beautiful big woods country.

The people at that camp now see few Deer and getting one is a big deal, where before 5-6 was normal. Then again, now they only hunt 2 days and leave. One of the nicest isolated camps I have ever seen. They say it is just not worth the time.

If there is some cutting going on, that makes a huge difference. However, these guys say very few hunt much after the second day. Question then becomes, if the pressure is light, the cover is good, why haven’t the Deer rebounded in higher numbers? You will find it difficult to find any who say that country holds Deer in numbers even close to back when.

Unless the hunters are still killing every Doe they can find.

I am Southern Tier, and i do believe a herd reduction was a good thing here. Maybe.
But no where near what has been done.
As far as carrying capacity?
I have never seen a browse line in this area.
Alt claims that there wasn't one because the underbrush was decimated.
Well i haven't noticed it being restored. The woods look the same as they
have for decades.

There are studies that say acid rain has taken the ph of our soil to the point that regeneration will take much longer. I know of one place here close by that just had their soil tested. The ph was 3-4.

That'll do it.

I have noticed some clear cuts that don't seem to grow over. For years.

If acid rain is the cause, then don't blame the deer. (I know not having it eaten off does help, but deer aren't the cause)

Rambling, but perhaps ticks love acid soil????

I think you have it reversed. The Deer ate it down in the past and now partly because of acid rain, even with fewer Deer, it is not regenerating as fast as they thought it would. Even if you are right, if the ground cover isn't regenerating fast enough, then there is little food to support a growing and healthy Deer population.

That being said, I have seen some of the fenced in enclosures-i.e. keep the Deer out- they have made up north and they were thick. Did they supplement the growth and help it along to prove their theory? Don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Seems just the opposite to me. I get ticks on me everytime I hunt the hardwoods but never when I hunt in the pines/spruce.

Our soil must be the same, because I can sit you down in some pine/spruce locations and if you stay long they will be all over you. But, admittedly it was just an idle thought in that I would really like to know the why of them. Also, studies say each Deer can drop-off around 200,000 ticks per year. Presently more Deer equals more ticks.

Here is the Pa dirty fact. With the Deer having relocated towards more populated locations, they have become a bad sore to both the GC and politicians. Especially rifle season and bullets. Which is the real reason the GC loves the arrow crew. Swish, swish, is much easier to support than pow, pow. The North country hasn't regenerated as they thought it would and the Deer are now down here and they prefer the easy living, which has backed the politicians and the GC into a corner.

Battue, theres always been cutting going on. Not to the extent the forest truly needs, but for deer its sufficient. Deer numbers are down because HR went too far. Way too far! Hell their still DMAPing the region. One area near me the population was so scarce yet to this day theyre hammering it hard. AND, there still poaching going on. Hard to rebound from that. Hunters are very selective in where they hunt, skewing any results the GC might seek in those areas.

In the last few years ive seen so many doe without fawns. Extremely healthy deer from what I can tell from sightings and harvested animals. So not feed. Is it predators or HR too far limiting the amount of breeding? I say the latter, though predator populations have exploded in the last 2 decades.

Do we have a habitat problem? Sure, but not to the extent where its hurting onenof the most adaptable animals Gods ever created. I havent checked up on Purdues 100 year study on eastern oak. But last I read regeneration was slow even without the competing vegetation issue. Im not sure acid rain as was alluded to is a factor. It may, but until I see concrete evidence ill hold my tongue on that one.

Fact is, we knocked the dog schit out of the population. Still are to a certain extent, and when you look back at old 2G records and compare them to todays split 2G and 2H figures, we're still putting a hurt on em.

Overall I dont like it, but for my personal hunting I love it. Less hunters, monday and tuesday I do more in season scouting(bear too) than true hunting and usually by end of week I connect. Last 2 yrs health held me back good, and God willing this yr will be different.

What I know right now is this, im in the mood!! I can feel it comin boys! I hope you all have a great and plentiful season this yr!

I'd like to know the why of them too. When I was a kid/young adult I was afield hunting/fishing/trapping damn near every day all year long and never got a tick on me. Now I get them almost every time I go outside.

Few things better on a fall afternoon than to put the leash on the Dog and both of you take a woods nap. Do it now and they will carry you away.

More HOSTS mean more ticks, not necessarily deer. Scientists are scratching their heads why ticks are making it through our winters. At our Lyme conference a well known speaker(who is selling a book currently) points to global warming. Crazy talk! Our weather is enough to kill, but as I said in my last post theres one thing theyre not factoring in, not just deer population but especially ticks, hosts, predator explosion. You can have prolonged sub zero temps but if theres a host the tick not only survives, it thrives.

Years ago when the first Doe season came about, those old boys bought tags and then publicly burnt piles of them. They were wrong then, because we had too, too many. Today would be the time. Today we just mostly talk and bitch.
I have a Doe tag for 2D and we have enough Does. Haven't used it in three years or so. One is about all I can eat in a year. If I don't get a Buck, will try and notch it on the last Friday or Saturday.

Cold doesn't seem to kill them. Once they arrive they populate if there are enough hosts. We have fewer Deer today, but Deer are a host, so more Deer equates to more ticks, fewer chipmunks, with less trapping more raccoons, possums, etc. A Deer came thru the back yard last summer and the top of her back was black with swollen ticks. Have had up to 7 Deer in the yard this year and that wasn't the case. The Dogs gets ticks when we are hunting, but hardly ever when he comes in from being in the yard and Deer and Groundhogs are here every day.

Deer numbers tend to "come back" more quickly where they have good cover and enough food to sustain them throughout the year.

An area with a mix of Ag crops, woods and plenty of over winter browse, will generally always out produce big woods areas. It's always been so. I was in that part of the Sproul south of Renovo, about 14 years ago. Mostly pole timber and nearly zero under story, which is the absolute worst kind of deer habitat. So, no surprise that deer numbers had dropped there and didn't rebound?

If higher deer numbers there leading into HR, helped destroy the under story, then fewer deer was the answer at the time.Acid rain is part of the problem, so was too many deer.

We had a few years of increased regen where I hunt, after HR. Now we're nearly back where we were before HR, as far as regen slowing down and browse lines. But we have heavier doe, good fawn recruitment and far more nice bucks. Ag production locally, especially corn and soy beans, has increased around there in the past decade, so I figure that's part of the reason our deer numbers grew and continue to be good.

It's a given that healthy doe can repopulate an area within a few years, when there are enough available bucks to do the breeding.

I shot a Bear in 72 when the annual kill was around 300. Now it is 3,000 to 5,000. Being a Northwoods Fawn is hard time living amongst the Bears and now Coyotes.

"Save a bunch of Fawns, shoot a Bear."

On a lighter vein:

http://www.lockhaven.com/news/local-news/2016/11/clinton-tops-pa-counties-in-bear-harvest/

So Battue, you being from the (burg) are you a member of Penn Harris?

Would be the burgh with the H. (Lawrence County Sportsman's Association.)

http://shootlcsa.com/index.html