Is anyone loading +P loads in the 35 Rem. for a 336? What velocity are you getting with 200 gr. bullets? What powder works best?
I have seen 2300 fps on a friends Chrony. He says he is using H-4895. The cases show no signs of pressure and primers are not flattened.
How high is the max?
Jim
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
That�s a warm load.
I assume a 20� barrel?
A factory 200 grain .356 runs 2,322 fps in my 20� Model 94BB Winchester barrel.
The 200 grain Sierra round nose ahead of 49.0 grains of Winchester 748 runs 2,487 fps in my .356. This is a case-full of powder.
I don�t know what a �Max Load .35 Remington +P� is but I do know that any 200 grain load chronographing over 2,400 fps is a warm load in my .356 Winchester. I am pretty comfortable with 200-grain hunting loads that run around 2,350 fps from my 20� .356.
I wouls guess your friend is loading above 50,000 CUP.
I was thinking that load may be on the wrong side of warm, I don't know what a max is either, but that sounds HOT! I have no experience with the 35 Remington, but I know they are factory under loaded for weaker guns. Bolt actions and Marlin 336s will handle higher pressure. The question is: How much higher?
As I said, his cases showed absolutely no signs of high pressure. Hmmm...?
I hope some one can enlighten me.
Jim
.
The only .35 Remington I have ever played with was a 14�TC barrel. I have not seriously looked at .35 Remington rifle data. I do know that Layne Simpson wrote a piece for Handloader No. 98, July-August 1982. In this article Simpson explored some +P .35 Remington loads. In a Remington Model 760 with 22� barrel he pushed various 200 grain bullets to 2,350fps and higher. Simpson did not use 4895 but he did use Hodgdon 335, a similar burn rate powder, and got his highest velocities for the 200-grain bullet with it.
There are some threads on the Marlin Owners Forum where the +P .35 Remington is discussed.
You might want to check out the ones by Buffalo Bore Ammo. The owner is a good guy and might give you some good information while you are talking to him.
.35 Rem loads should send a 200 gr. bullet at about 2000-2100fps from a 20"bbl.
No pressure signs?
Q? Using new or already fired brass? Remember, brass fired but once already starts to harden. Expansion of web/rim may seem slight to none. Remember, straight walled cartridges notorious for hiding pressure signs till catastrophe is reached.
Hard to imagine a few more fps bein worth the risk
This is a cartridge that I've always liked just how it is, shooting 200gr at 2000-2100fps. Never considered hot-rodding this one. As Mak said, it ain't worth it. If I wanted more, I'd use my 35 Colonel or 348. Just me---2MG
.35 Rem loads should send a 200 gr. bullet at about 2000-2100fps from a 20"bbl.
No pressure signs?
Q? Using new or already fired brass? Remember, brass fired but once already starts to harden. Expansion of web/rim may seem slight to none. Remember, straight walled cartridges notorious for hiding pressure signs till catastrophe is reached.
Hard to imagine a few more fps bein worth the risk
I believe the question was about 35 Remington +P loads. Did you mis-read?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Probably not dangerous in a Marlin 336 or a Winchester 70, but probably too dangerous in almost any Remington 8/81 or 14/141. Certainly too dangerous in any Standard semi-auto or pump.
Jeff
The +P loads that have been listed on the Marlin owners site are around 2200 fps for a 200 grain bullet. That seems to be about the max.
Alright, I'll hold you by the hand...
1) this is baseline bullet weight an velocity. It'll give u an idea of how far above factory loads you are venturin.
2)Its hard to imagine another few hundred fps turnin this cartridge into the latest short magnum.
3)You need to worry first about strength of your brass. Assumin your 336 is in exellent condition, it has a 100% safety margin at 40,000 psi, you can certainly cut into this margin, but its there to provide for catastrophic events-the higher you go-the less protection for you the shooter an any others around you.
4) The .35 Rem is one of those 100yrs. old cartridges that sticks around cuz it works as designed. The magic level for levergun rounds of medium bore is 1900-2100fps. More velocity does not translate into a deadlier cartridge.
Finally, keep in mind that after a point, more velocity is redundant at levergun ranges.
Good luck n good shootin
I average 2250 fps with RL-7, 200GR corelokt, rem cases, CCI primer. I am above max but load is safe and accurate in my 336. If you lose your accuracy with the vel increase, it's not worth it!
I average 2250 fps with RL-7, 200GR corelokt, rem cases, CCI primer. I am above max but load is safe and accurate in my 336. If you lose your accuracy with the vel increase, it's not worth it!
Thank you Caveman
You answered my question consisely and to the point. If you routinely get 2250 fps from your +P loads then the fellow that I saw at the range who is getting 2275 - 2300 fps in his Marlin 336 is not so far overloaded. I know nothing about his loads or accuracy only that he said he used H-4895 powder.
Your information combined with his cases that I examined leads me to think that he was probably well under 50,00 psi. I was thinking that someone on this thread with a computer reloading program such as Quick Load may have an educated guess on max loads and pressures. The question is academic anyway, my 336 is in 30-30 cal. and I don't use +P in it.
Thanks again for a good response.
Jim
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
My Powley Computer says....
20" barrel,
40.0 gr of IMR 3031 gets an estimated 2,293 fps at an estimated 49,431 PSI (equates to CUP).
I think I would use Hodgdon Benchmark if I were looking at this. I have used Bench mark a bit in the .356.
Worked up a couple ladder charts on quickload. 200gr bullet at 2300 fps looks feasible at 40K lbs-psi.
Cartridge : .35 Rem.
Bullet : .358, 200, Hornady SP 3515
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.525 inch or 64.14 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
Powder : Accurate No.2520
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.136% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-11.4 90 39.00 1993 1763 26555 5387 83.9 1.361
-10.2 91 39.50 2021 1814 27564 5486 84.7 1.340
-09.1 93 40.00 2050 1866 28616 5583 85.5 1.319
-08.0 94 40.50 2079 1919 29716 5679 86.3 1.298
-06.8 95 41.00 2108 1973 30866 5774 87.1 1.278
-05.7 96 41.50 2137 2028 32070 5867 87.8 1.258
-04.5 97 42.00 2166 2084 33329 5958 88.5 1.238
-03.4 98 42.50 2195 2141 34646 6048 89.3 1.218
-02.3 99 43.00 2225 2198 36026 6135 89.9 1.199
-01.1 101 43.50 2255 2257 37473 6220 90.6 1.180
+00.0 102 44.00 2284 2317 38988 6303 91.3 1.159
+01.1 103 44.50 2314 2378 40580 6384 91.9 1.138
+02.3 104 45.00 2344 2440 42232 6462 92.5 1.118
+03.4 105 45.50 2374 2503 44005 6537 93.1 1.098
+04.5 106 46.00 2404 2567 45851 6610 93.7 1.079
+05.7 108 46.50 2435 2632 47792 6680 94.2 1.059
Cartridge : .35 Rem.
Bullet : .358, 200, Hornady SP 3515
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.525 inch or 64.14 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
Powder : Winchester 748
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.163% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-11.6 87 38.00 1991 1761 27677 5279 82.1 1.342
-10.5 88 38.50 2019 1811 28684 5381 83.0 1.321
-09.3 89 39.00 2047 1861 29733 5483 83.7 1.301
-08.1 90 39.50 2075 1913 30825 5584 84.5 1.281
-07.0 92 40.00 2104 1965 31955 5684 85.3 1.261
-05.8 93 40.50 2132 2019 33142 5782 86.1 1.242
-04.7 94 41.00 2161 2074 34373 5879 86.8 1.223
-03.5 95 41.50 2190 2129 35655 5974 87.5 1.204
-02.3 96 42.00 2218 2185 36993 6068 88.2 1.185
-01.2 97 42.50 2247 2243 38387 6161 88.9 1.166
+00.0 98 43.00 2276 2301 39841 6251 89.6 1.146
+01.2 100 43.50 2306 2361 41352 6339 90.3 1.127
+02.3 101 44.00 2335 2421 42941 6426 90.9 1.108
+03.5 102 44.50 2364 2482 44599 6510 91.5 1.089
+04.7 103 45.00 2394 2544 46330 6592 92.1 1.071
+05.8 104 45.50 2423 2608 48140 6671 92.7 1.053
The 220gr Speer looks to have potential above 2100 fps. With a BC over .3 it carries the freight quite well.
Cartridge : .35 Rem.
Bullet : .358, 220, Speer FP 2439
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.525 inch or 64.14 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
Powder : Accurate No.2520
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.25% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-12.5 89 35.00 1826 1629 24972 4822 83.5 1.471
-11.3 90 35.50 1855 1680 25995 4921 84.4 1.446
-10.0 91 36.00 1884 1733 27068 5019 85.2 1.422
-08.8 92 36.50 1913 1787 28190 5115 86.1 1.397
-07.5 94 37.00 1942 1842 29370 5209 86.9 1.374
-06.3 95 37.50 1971 1898 30606 5302 87.7 1.350
-05.0 96 38.00 2000 1955 31905 5394 88.5 1.327
-03.8 97 38.50 2030 2013 33268 5483 89.3 1.304
-02.5 99 39.00 2060 2072 34703 5570 90.0 1.282
-01.3 100 39.50 2089 2133 36212 5655 90.7 1.259
+00.0 101 40.00 2119 2194 37799 5737 91.4 1.237
+01.3 103 40.50 2149 2257 39470 5817 92.1 1.213
+02.5 104 41.00 2180 2321 41234 5894 92.8 1.190
+03.8 105 41.50 2210 2386 43094 5969 93.4 1.167
+05.0 106 42.00 2240 2452 45058 6040 94.0 1.145
+06.3 108 42.50 2271 2519 47134 6108 94.6 1.123
Tabular trajectory data at Non-Std. Atmosphere
Gunsite altitude : 4000 ft.
Air density : 0.068737 lb./ft�
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun / Ammunition : .35 Rem.
Bullet : .358, 220, Speer FP 2439
Bullet weight : 220 grains or 14.26 Grams
Muzzle velocity : 2149 fps
Crosswind speed : 10 Mph
Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
C1=0.311@V>0 fps;
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Range Velo Time of Energy Path Deflection Total Sight correction Target
city flight to at crosswind drop for setting new lead
LOS of 10.0 Mph zero range 33 fps
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
�Yards fps s ft.lbs. in. in. MOA in. Clicks MOA yds �
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| 0 2149 0.0000 2256 -2.0 0.0 ----- 0.0 ------ ----- 0.00
| 25 2092 0.0354 2138 -0.1 0.1 0.37 0.2 +0.7 +0.23 0.39
| 50 2036 0.0717 2025 +1.4 0.3 0.64 1.0 -7.5 -2.58 0.78
| 75 1981 0.1087 1916 +2.3 0.7 0.90 2.2 -8.3 -2.87 1.19
| 100 1926 0.1464 1812 +2.6 1.2 1.14 4.0 -7.3 -2.52 1.60
| 125 1872 0.1856 1712 +2.4 2.0 1.49 6.4 -5.4 -1.85 2.03
| 150 1820 0.2264 1618 +1.6 3.0 1.91 9.4 -2.9 -0.99 2.48
X 175 1769 0.2686 1528 0.0 4.3 2.34 13.1 0.0 0.00 2.94
| 200 1719 0.3122 1443 -2.3 5.8 2.77 17.5 +3.2 +1.08 3.41
| 225 1670 0.3570 1362 -5.3 7.6 3.21 22.7 +6.5 +2.25 3.90
| 250 1622 0.4030 1285 -9.1 9.5 3.63 28.6 +10.1 +3.47 4.41
| 275 1575 0.4501 1212 -13.7 11.7 4.05 35.4 +13.8 +4.76 4.92
| 300 1529 0.4983 1142 -19.1 14.0 4.45 42.9 +17.7 +6.08 5.45
Montana,
That is exactly the information that I was looking for. It doesn't sound like the guy at the range was overloaded as much as I had believed. The 35 is somewhat like the 257 Bob, underloaded for some reason but capable of some respectable preformance.
Thanks for your efforts in finding that info.
Jim
P.S. This may cost me money, I'm getting interested in a 35 Remington for myself.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I had a Marlin 1895 in the late 1970s, shoulda kept it, but that's another story.
Anyway, the 45-70 was cool, and recoil was fairly fierce. Of late, I've been mulling a hunting rifle, and being a southpaw, leverguns, pumps, single shots, and semiautos all offer possible options.
I've been doing some comparative analysis of 45-70, .444 Marlin, 44Mag, and 35Rem. Properly loaded, the 35 Rem looks like it can deliver decent power and trajectory to 200-250 yards, with moderate recoil.
Montana
That is some great info to have, could you possibly run that program with H-4895 for both the 200 and 220 gr. bullet.
I have chronoed one load that uses h4895 that average about 2290fps and one shot did go over 2300fps, I had no pressure signs and figure pressure should be right around 40000psi(cant remeber if it is psi or cup off the top of my head). I had better accuracy at around 2250fps so I backed it off.
I also have a load using the 220gr. speer and it runs about 2140fps, I really need to chrono some buffelo bore to see really how fast it moves those bullets from a 20" tube.
I've been doing some comparative analysis of 45-70, .444 Marlin, 44Mag, and 35Rem. Properly loaded, the 35 Rem looks like it can deliver decent power and trajectory to 200-250 yards, with moderate recoil.
I have been thinking the same thing so now I'm out looking for a Marlin 336 in 35 Remington, too. I'll let you know what I find.
Jim
I've never been one for "hot rodding" a cartridge. In my book, if you want a 35 caliber leveraction that you can get 2400fps with a 200 grain bullet then buy yourself a Browning BLR in 358 Winchester.
Why risk safety when you could buy a new rifle?
My main stay deer rifle is a 7x57 Mauser. I am very happy with 2600 fps using 154gr Hornadys or 2350 fps with old 170gr Sierras. If I wanted more I could always go Magnum.
Just my 2 cents.
Dan
Cartridge : .35 Rem.
Bullet : .358, 200, Hornady SP 3515
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.525 inch or 64.14 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.282% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-12.8 85 34.00 1848 1516 26289 4348 79.0 1.420
-11.5 86 34.50 1874 1560 27255 4439 79.8 1.397
-10.3 87 35.00 1901 1604 28263 4529 80.5 1.375
-09.0 88 35.50 1927 1649 29304 4619 81.2 1.353
-07.7 90 36.00 1954 1695 30379 4708 82.0 1.332
-06.4 91 36.50 1980 1742 31489 4797 82.7 1.311
-05.1 92 37.00 2007 1789 32636 4886 83.3 1.290
-03.8 93 37.50 2034 1837 33822 4974 84.0 1.269
-02.6 95 38.00 2061 1886 35054 5061 84.7 1.249
-01.3 96 38.50 2088 1935 36334 5148 85.4 1.229
+00.0 97 39.00 2115 1986 37664 5233 86.0 1.210
+01.3 98 39.50 2142 2037 39047 5318 86.6 1.191
+02.6 100 40.00 2169 2089 40485 5402 87.3 1.171
+03.8 101 40.50 2196 2141 41981 5485 87.9 1.152
+05.1 102 41.00 2223 2195 43537 5567 88.5 1.134
+06.4 103 41.50 2250 2249 45157 5647 89.1 1.115
Cartridge : .35 Rem.
Bullet : .358, 220, Speer FP 2439
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.525 inch or 64.14 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch or 508.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.389% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-13.9 85 31.00 1722 1449 25975 3979 79.6 1.509
-12.5 86 31.50 1749 1494 27018 4069 80.4 1.482
-11.1 87 32.00 1776 1541 28102 4159 81.2 1.456
-09.7 89 32.50 1803 1588 29234 4248 82.0 1.431
-08.3 90 33.00 1830 1636 30407 4337 82.7 1.406
-06.9 91 33.50 1857 1684 31621 4425 83.5 1.382
-05.6 93 34.00 1884 1734 32880 4512 84.2 1.358
-04.2 94 34.50 1911 1784 34185 4599 84.9 1.334
-02.8 95 35.00 1938 1835 35545 4685 85.6 1.311
-01.4 97 35.50 1966 1887 36963 4770 86.3 1.289
+00.0 98 36.00 1993 1940 38442 4855 87.0 1.266
+01.4 100 36.50 2020 1994 39986 4938 87.7 1.244
+02.8 101 37.00 2048 2049 41597 5020 88.3 1.222
+04.2 102 37.50 2075 2104 43279 5101 89.0 1.201
+05.6 104 38.00 2103 2161 45037 5180 89.6 1.180
+06.9 105 38.50 2131 2218 46874 5258 90.2 1.160
I shot 1 whitetail doe with the 220 grain Speer from a 356 and it didn't expand enough to suit me, so I switched to the 180 grain Speer for deer. The 220 grain Speers are tough, which makes them my choice for bear, elk, or moose, but too tough for lung shots on deer.
Jeff
JBledsoe,
You can't use primer flattening as a warning sign for low pressure calibers such as the .35 Rem. By the time that pressure sign develops you may have already exceeded the strength limit of the thin brass case, primer cup, or the strength of weaker action types.
For bolt actions and high pressure calibers, flattened primers can work as a high pressure sign and if the primer pierces they safely handle the escaping gases much better than lever actions do.
Wear good shooting glasses every time you shoot if you plan to hot load the .35 Rem. in lever guns.
Several points;
1) Yer fancy puter program is an extrapolation-a starting point, an a guesstimate. It crunches numbers with no real world response.
2) In order to truly assess pressure with straight walled cases you as a hobby loader have only a couple choices-you go find a shop with piezo-electric equipment, you work with a lot of factory ammo, fire enuff to establish expansion, pull bullets an dump powder-then start up with your favourite components till your numbers on this NEW UNFIRED BRASS OF THE SAME EXACT LOT offers similar expansion-or you trust sme number crunchin puter which is just about the same thing as sayin-gee, if I can stuff more powder into the case, well heck, I'm gonna go ahead an do it!
3) Velocity/pressure measurements will differ with each gun.
4) Levergun cartridges are not never no how gonna be your short magnums, so why risk so much for so little?
5) You better keep a close eye on headspace.
I'll say this much, I can't understand the rationale for any of you folks overloading this or any other cartridge. Did you at some point have somebody whisper in your ear that a lil more velocity is gonna turn your levergun into jack the giant killer?
Just remember, when the big boom happens an pieces of metal an wood are sailing all over, that hot damn, you got 200 more fps.
MAK out.
1) No [bleep]
2) No [bleep]
3) No [bleep]
4) No [bleep]
5) No [bleep]
I didn't just fall of the fucqing Turnip Truck.......
SAAMI standard is 39,885 lbs-psi
My point is that very good performance can be had, within SAAMI limits.
The Marlin action does fine with SAAMI 51K lbs-psi via the 444 Marlin.
I'm not convinced the 336 will come unhinged at 39-40K
Although the 356 Win doesn't have much more case capacity than the 35 Rem, 55 grains verses 51 grains, the advantages that I see are that the brass is much heavier and the headspace is on the rim, rather than on a very small shoulder. Also, a 35 to 356 Nonneman conversion gets you a precision cut chamber and a process that has been proven to be safe and fully functional hundreds of times over. Even if the 35 Rem +P loading program is safe, it doesn't appear (to me) to possess the additional margin of safety that a 356 conversion provides as a means by which to reach the maximum performance potential of a .358" bore cartridge in a Marlin 336.
If it sounds like I am preaching the gospel of St. Regan, I guess that I am, as I am a believer x3.
Jeff
Jeff,
Does the 336 action handle the 356 Win at SAAMI standard max pressure (52,000 lbs-psi)?
IIRC, Winchester kinda plussed-up the M94 with more steel around the locking lug area of the receiver to handle the pressures of some of the hotter rounds, as in the 444, and I believe the 356 and 375.
I have had 3 Nonneman conversions; a 30-30 to 307 and 2 35 to 356, all of which worked fine and showed no pressure issues. The 307 and 356 brass is heavy, compared to 30-30 and 35 Rem brass, and some of my brass is on its 5th loading without any splits or loose primer pockets.
Jeff
Some of you gentlemen are determined to protect us from ourselves. Do you work for the government? Thanks for the concern but we are grown men, old men in fact, with many years experience. We don't need lectures on reloading. What is it to you if I blow up my gun? Did you buy it for me? Or do you buy my reloading supplies? Until you do, don't worry about it, you'll just make your self look silly.
I don't give a rat's ass what you do, or what you say you do, when you are loading for your 35 Remington.
My only interest is sharing some of what I have learned from doing, so that others might cut some corners and time off their own learning curves. I think that if you are trying to get the maximum safe performance out of a Marlin 336 platform, using a non-wildcat cartridge, the current cartridge of choice in the .308" bore is the 307 and the current cartridge of choice in the .358" bore is the 356. If you would read and comprehend some of the good information provided by guys like Selsnslim, you might learn something, regardless of how old and stubborn you may be.
Jeff
The 307 and 356 make good sense. Not hard to see the advantages of better brass and more volume.
I see something of a parallel between rifle cartridges and automobile engines, in that the easiest way in either venue to increase power is by increasing capacity.
In engines, if there is a size restriction, like in F1 racing, you add a tubo-charger to the engine to boost performance, but you make the engine work harder and shorten its functional mean time between failures.
In cartridges, you seek the combination of powders and bullets that will give you the performance profile that you're looking for. We all know that manufacturers build some degree of safety into their rifles and ammunition, it is only prudent to do so. Our individual tolerance for risk generally determines how far into that safety zone, or mine field, we are willing to venture. If we go too far, we could be risking injury on every subseqent sqeeze of the trigger. Worth it to you? Maybe. Worth it to me? Maybe not.
The key weak point to hotrodding the 35 Remington, that I can see, is the brass. Since the 35 Rem was never intended to be hotrodded, the brass is made to be in sync with its mild factory spec pressures. OTOH, the 356 was intended to function at higher pressures in a rifle, the Winchester 94BB, that doesn't possess the (critical point!) escaping gas handling qualities as most modern bolt action rifles. The cartridges designers at Winchester/Olin worked in sync with the rifle redesigners at Winchester to arrive at a safe and functional integrated "system".
For the nominal cost of having Nonneman rechamber a Marlin 336 from either 30-30 to 307 or 35 to 356, I can't see any reason to incur unnecessary risk of hotrodding either the 30-30 or 35. In either case, if you want to use rimless cases, 308 and 358 brass will function through a Nonneman conversion's magazine, if you stick to 307 and 356 OAL criteria.
Jeff
JBledsoe,
If you blind yourself you will go on Social Security Disability so it does effect me directly because I am a taxpayer.
You innitally wrote "The cases show no signs of pressure and primers are not flattened."
Here is an excerpt from Steve Timm's excellent article in the Varmit Hunter Association magazine on primers as pressure indicators.
"Regrettably, primer shape and condition don't always follow our perfect world scenario. This is why reading primers is done more to substantiate other pressure indicators, rather than being a stand-alone signal.
The biggest problem in reading primers comes from the fact that primer cup material hardness and thickness varies slightly from lot to lot. Also, both hardness and thickness varies considerably from brand to brand. Like cases, some primers are hard and some are soft.
If a handloader uses a single lot of primers, it is a great deal easier to see the evolution of primer shape as chamber pressure advances. Additionally, by using a single lot of primers, and getting intimately familiar with it, we increase the possibility of noticing a development that is out of the norm. The key is to see the change and act on it (like a load reduction) before pressure becomes a problem.
I'm slowly growing convinced that flash hole size affects primer shape. Currently, I'm working with two large lots of Winchester .223 Ackley brass. The nickel-plated cases and the brass cases have precisely the same powder capacity, yet the brass cases flatten primers about �-grain (of H-335) ahead of the nickel ones. So what's the difference? The flash hole is very slightly larger in the brass cases. Is it possible that the gas back-pressure is slightly higher in cases with larger flash holes? Makes sense to me.
Cratered primers are not always a sign of high pressure. They also can be caused by a firing pin hole that is too large in relation to the size of the firing pin. If there is a significant gap between the pin and the hole, the primer material will flow into it at almost any pressure. It also is possible to experience pierced primers by using a firing pin that is sharp or too long. If a handloader experiences either of these problems at apparently low pressures, a trip to a fine gunsmith is in order.
My last comment on working to maximum may sound sort of sermon-like. I am the survivor of one total rifle blowup and one near-detonation. One was totally my fault and the other can be rightfully blamed on a non-shooting secretary of the old Kimber outfit. I've paid my dues and wear the scars and metal in my body (literally) to prove it.
Now listen up. If you load for a .223 Remington, but lust for .22-250 velocities, for Heaven's sake buy a .22-250. It just isn't worth the risk of hurting yourself by overloading the .223. Trust me, a rifle blowup, even with a relatively small cartridge, really spoils the hell out of your day.
Experience has shown that it is best to enjoy each cartridge for what it is. If you adopt this philosophy, you'll find that you will enjoy load development. Hey, just think of it as a compelling reason to buy that new .22-250 or .220 Swift. End of sermon."
You are never to old to learn. A lot of people who haven't survived as long as you could see the NOT pressure tested load data posted here and say those namby pamby wusses who write reloading manuals are just try to protect us from ourselves with wimpy loads and use them with unhappy results. So my cautionary note was not just for YOU. When you start your load development I hope you get a bench far away from innocent bystanders.
Touchy aren't we?
I did not think of you as being a member of the "some of you gentlemen" group refered to in my previous post. Sorry that you consider your self as such, I don't.
I will disregard your previous tirade and welcome any future comments and suggestions.
Still your friend,
Jim
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Whatever.
Your input on this matter, at least, is of little value to anyone who has any practical knowledge. I'd suggest that you put "260Remguy" on ignore, then you can be assured of living in ignorant bliss.
Jeff
From everything I have read over the last several years. The factory 35 Remington loadings from the big three at least of Remington, Winchester and Federal are all underloaded to even the current SAAMI spec. This is because of older Remington model 8 (I think) and other pump guns that were chambered in 35Rem. These actions are weaker than say a modern Marlin 336.
The exact same 336 action in a 30-30 is I believe 42,000. Also the 336ER in 356 win Marlin produced also used the exact same receiver. There are many myths that the 336 ER was a different receiver with heat treating etc but as far as I've been able to research there is absolutely no proof what so ever that it is any different than any other 336 receiver.
So while it is true that extrapolating data is not necessarily 100% accurate. It is also true that in modern Marlin 336 actions there is sufficient strength in the action to go above the 35 Rem factory SAAMI spec. There are people on other forums that are in fact doing pressure testing on the 35 rem. The testing so far proves that the factory rounds are well under the SAAMI spec even for an "underloaded" 35 Rem.
Check out marlinoweners and beartooth bullet forums. There is a wealth of information there. And there are many many people out there that seem to be loading the 35 Rem to 2200 fps and have been doing so for many years.
Yep, factory 35 Rem. loads are probably kept fairly tepid in deference to all of the old Rem. M14/M141 pumps still in existence. They supposedly follow the same practice with 8x57 loads and several others, for the same reasons: Old guns that might not withstand pressures that modern guns will.
I still shoot Rem. 200gr Core-Lokt factory loads in my M336 for these reasons: They were inexpensive, are very accurate and thus far have flattened a few deer with no fuss. When they're gone, I'll use that empty brass to whomp up a load that has a tad more oomph, providing they're just as accurate as the factory loads were.
The 35 Rem. is not a varmint or target rifle that gets fired hundreds of times per year, so ammo quantity demands ain't all that great. Doubt mine gets fired more than a half dozen times per year, but when I need more ammo, it'll be my own loads.
I have few reservations about loading stout loads in the Marlin 336 because I did it for years in my 444 without any problems. Although like someone pointed out, the hottest loads are not always the most accurate ones and accuracy is still the final answer in my book.
According to my info the factory loadings are only doing about 32 to 33K psi and the 30-30 is listed as 42K by SAAMI so there is room for 10,000 psi just to equal 30-30. Then the 356 and 307 push on up to 50,000 in the same action. The case may not allow 50,000 but I would think that the 42,000 level of 30-30's should be reasonable. That should give velocities in the 2200 fps range with 200 gr. bullets. Those guys on the other forums are running over 2300 fps with 200 gr. bullets at around 46K psi, that should be good velocity if the accuracy is still there.
I would like to try some experimentation when I find a good 336 in 35 cal. Sounds like fun!
Interesting discussion, thanks for your input.
Jim
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A max load of H335 behind the 180gr Speer FP produces 2315fps from my little 336SS-35LTD guide gun with 18.5" barrel. That's smokin' out of the short barreled 35Remmy. No pressure indications at all.
Hi Duckbill
I don't use H-335 very often but that load sounds good. How is accuracy? Have you any loads with 200 gr. Hornady?
Jim
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Hi Duckbill
I don't use H-335 very often but that load sounds good. How is accuracy? Have you any loads with 200 gr. Hornady?
Jim
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Hey Jim,
Accuracy was OK(1" at 50yds), but much better backed off 1.5 grains. I've really only tested the groups at 50yds because I have a low powered scope on it.
I have not tested the 200gr HDY's in this gun, but they shot really good in an older 336RC 35 Rem. The HDY is a little tougher than the Corelokts and Sierra 200gr bullets. Some folks complain that they do not open up well at standard 35REM speeds. I've been meaning to try them in this gun. Especially since the main purpose for this guide gun is for hogs.
If you want some load data, shoot me a PM. I'll dig some up tonight. It's been several years since I used the HDY.
Bill
I was shooting 39.5 grns of Varget with a Hornady 200 gr bullet out of my Rem 760 (made 1980) with exceptional accuracy. I was able to get 2100 out of it. I love that rifle and just two weeks ago I found it a perfect mate.....a Marlin 336D Guide Gun in 35 Rem. Apparently only 1000 were made for Davidsons (a distributor). I have yet to shoot it but I am thinking of trying the Speer FP. Good luck with your +P loads!
I understand your comments about safety. May I ask what made your rifle blow up? In my early and ignorant years reloading I accidentally assumed the powder left in my powder dumper was H4831 but in actuallity it was Varget. To make a long story short my loaded 25-06 cases were loaded 14 grains above max of Varget while thinking it was a stiff load of H4831. The first shot at the range left a sticky bolt, the second left a sticky bolt, and the third had blown the primer and forced the plunger into the bolt. Then it all dawned on me what had happened. It was a Rem 700 BDL and I have fired over 300 rounds (of safe loads) through it since with still excellent accuracy. Why wasn't their any damage to me or my rifle?
I understand your comments about safety. May I ask what made your rifle blow up?
He posted an article by someone else, describing their "blow up".
The M700 action is very strong and also has a pretty good gas escape design to safely vent the end results of a blown primer or case. So does the Savage M110 action and I know that from personal experience.
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I understand your comments about safety. May I ask what made your rifle blow up?
He posted an article by someone else, describing their "blow up".
The M700 action is very strong and also has a pretty good gas escape design to safely vent the end results of a blown primer or case. So does the Savage M110 action and I know that from personal experience.
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Pay no attention to the lady called Phasemaid, she doesn't understand the question and goes ranting on about other things.
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MM, I once had an 1895 just like the one you're talking about. I was used to 45-70 recoil, having fired the cartridge extensively in my 1886 Winchester. The 405's were fine, but when I went to one of the hopped-up Express loads in another brand...suffice to say that a trip to the Choiropracter was in order two days later.
Of course, the big, heavy '86 will solve your recoil problems without going to a smaller caliber. I currently have an 1895 Cowboy and it shoots some fairly warm '86 level loads with no recoil concerns.
As a newbie to the .35REM and as a newbie reloader, I appreciate reading everyone's input.
So is anyone in the firearms/ammunition industry paying attention to this discussion? There is obviously a need for pressure tested and published +P data for the 35 Rem. just as has been done for the 45-70, 38 Spec., etc.
Yes Ratltrap, you are so right! It really makes the 35Rem a potent close range gun that you no longer need to make excuses about. It's a "meat gun" also, which hasn't been mentioned here and that's great for us who don't want to drop our deer quickly and want to minimize lost venison. The +P (2250fps for me) hasn't caused any more meat damage on last two I shot and they didn't go far.
But you guys be careful cause I don't want to be reprimanded about 'hotroding' if one blows due to a mistake. Test fire carefully please!
Buckeye, thanks for that link. Very informative read.
Dave.
As yiou can see the the 35 Rem. is a heck of a cartridge that just hasn't got the press as the new thumpers...Its reputation is built from the woods not the pen.. with modern powders and bullets made just for the 35 Rem. velocity..it makes a heck of a combo light fast operating carbine that will take care of bussiness..I like the way the 35 Rem. CL functions and the 180 gr. Speer..The 180 gr. Speer my seem light but it is long and constructed well.
I have a couple of 336's in 35 Rem. and with the right bullet at the right Vel. it is wonderful Black Bear medicine..and they are big here..a 550lb..was taken less than 5 miles from my place.
I average 2250 fps with RL-7, 200GR corelokt, rem cases, CCI primer. I am above max but load is safe and accurate in my 336. If you lose your accuracy with the vel increase, it's not worth it!
What is the load?
I am interested in this discussion, too. I am waiting for my 336 35 Remington to be delivered. In my country to be legal for moose the 35 Remington would have to reach 200 gr @ 2250 fps. This is still only of academic interest to me since I have other, more powerful guns for moose hunting. But the temptation is there to achieve the moose energy levels.
The LeverEvolution factory ammo in 35 Remington achieves this velocity so it is doable at least with some powders.
The 336 can take 444 Marlin pressures which are 43000 if I remember correctly, so I think at least the gun can take the 35 Remington +P loads discussed in this thread.
I ordered my 336 35 Remington for deer hunting so I will not be needing any +P loads. But it is nice to hear what others have done on that front.
Buffalo Bore offers this load.
Heavy .35 Remington
Item No. 17A 220 gr. JFN 2200 fps
2364 ft. lbs. Per Box of 20
$44.09
"... 2315fps from my little 336SS-35LTD guide gun with 18.5" barrel. That's smokin' out of the short barreled 35Remmy. No pressure indications at all."
I wonder what pressure signs you are looking for.
If it's the "normal" signs of sticky extraction, ejector hole marks on the the case head, exceptionally flatten primers, smoked or loose primer pockets, you may be in for a surprise. All of those signs show up only when pressures are approximately twice what the standard pressure for a .35 is built for.
You can beat your 336 to death with much less pressure than it takes for such signs to appear.
I am with 260Rem on this one. I just got my Nonneman 356 conversion back last week. I just posted a thread on it with pics. I recommend him highly for anybody wanting this done - or other lever work for that matter.
I see nothing wrong with pumping the 35 Rem up some as it is underlaoded but you are talking a 200 grain bullet at 2300 fps - max.
The 356 at normal pressure (similar pressure to +P 35Rem) will deliver 2650 fps with the same bullet. That flattens trajectory within iron sight range considerably and needless to say elevates the rifle to the next power level without any plus p worries.
I've got a 35Rem Marlin too and I load that to normal pressures and get 2000 fps with 200 grain Rem Corlokts - a good deer load and very fun to shoot.
Maybe now I'll get a 35 Whelen...
I am interested in this discussion, too. I am waiting for my 336 35 Remington to be delivered. In my country to be legal for moose the 35 Remington would have to reach 200 gr @ 2250 fps. This is still only of academic interest to me since I have other, more powerful guns for moose hunting. But the temptation is there to achieve the moose energy levels.
The LeverEvolution factory ammo in 35 Remington achieves this velocity so it is doable at least with some powders.
The 336 can take 444 Marlin pressures which are 43000 if I remember correctly, so I think at least the gun can take the 35 Remington +P loads discussed in this thread.
I ordered my 336 35 Remington for deer hunting so I will not be needing any +P loads. But it is nice to hear what others have done on that front.
Just an fyi - I think that the Leverevolution load is with a 180 grain bullet...
I wonder if the folks who think that 40K in the 336 35 rem is dangerous limit themselves to lead bullets at 1500fps in the 1895 marlin?
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There is always some Chicken Little running around crying that the sky is falling.
.
"The cases show no signs of pressure and primers are not flattened."
At the normal maximum - and over maximum - pressures for a 336, you will never see "signs of pressure" nor "flat primers". That kind of pressure sign is restricted to bolt rifles working at maybe 60K + psi.
A 336 is stong for a rear locking lever rifle but it will come from together well before reaching those pressure levels.
New guy here. I appreciate all the experience posted. I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.
I load a Speer 180g FP over 41.5g of IMR 3031 for 2400 fps in my 336C (20"). This is a PUBLISHED MAX LOAD from Speer's Reloading Manual Number 9. 40.5g gave 2375 fps. Still a great load with that bullet. You need 2300+ fps with the 180g FP for it to expand reliably. It's a tough bullet.
Thanks for the lively discussion and info.
,
Hi, DavyG and welcome to the Campfire. We need some Marlin shooters. Be nice but jump in.
The 336 is designed for loads in the 50,000 PSI range. 41.5 works well in my gun, as well as the same charge of 4895. The 35 Remington is a great cartridge in the Marlin.
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The 336 is designed for loads in the 50,000 PSI range. 41.5 works well in my gun, as well as the same charge of 4895. The 35 Remington is a great cartridge in the Marlin.
So what do you think that load might run in PSI?
The 336 is designed for loads in the 50,000 PSI range. 41.5 works well in my gun, as well as the same charge of 4895. The 35 Remington is a great cartridge in the Marlin.
So what do you think that load might run in PSI?
Someone on this forum ran that load thu QuickLoad computer program, QuickLoad said that the pressure would be around 42,000 PSI. But remember, that's a guesstimate not an actual pressure test. At any rate, it is well within the Marlin's limits.
I check my loads on the chrono and try to run between 2200 and 2300 fps with 200 gr bullets in a twenty inch barrel.
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...I check my loads on the chrono and try to run between 2200 and 2300 fps with 200 gr bullets in a twenty inch barrel.
I hear ya. 200g CoreLokts @ 2200 fps will produce perfect mushrooms; i.e. the perfect velocity for that bullet.
I like the tougher Speer for the hogs. Friend took a 300 lbs hog in Feb, and there's a 400 lbs specimen running around up there with a hole from a .243 that didn't kill him. Those gristle shields soak up energy. But my preferred hog load is a .44 265g WFN hardcast at 1825 fps from my 1894...1.5" wound channel thru-n-thru, no matter the size.
"I have seen 2300 fps on a friends Chrony. He says he is using H-4895. The cases show no signs of pressure and primers are not flattened."
Hot rod your 336 if you wish, but it won't change the effect much.
Anyone who trys it should know from the outset, the low pressure limits of the ammunition apply to those rifles and not the cases. The rifle itself will come from together, violently, long before any important pimer flatening or case sticking on extracton or measureable web expansion occurs.
Just something to think about for anyone who is trying to make his 20" 336 in .35 match a 24" bolt action in .358.
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I run my 336 at 50,000 CUP that is the same as the 358, so what difference does a bolt action make as far as pressure is concerned? Pressure is pressure no matter what action.
.
jbledsoe,
Do I understand you correctly? Are you saying that a leveraction should be able to handle the same pressure as a bolt action? Sure pressure is pressure but some actions are designed to handle more pressure than others.
There are tons of differences between a marlin 336 and a bolt action. First is where the action locks, the marlin locks near the rear of the bolt and a bolt action locks at the front. The rear lockup allows more movement. The thickness of the barrel around the cartridge is also thinner on the marlins due to the way the magazine comes into the reciever. Most bolt designs are much stronger.
Bolt actions are also made to direct gas from a ruptured case or a blown primer out to the side, that is what the hole is for on the side of savage 110s and remington 700s. Marlins dont have this feature and most of the gas is going to travel either along the firing pin or along the outside of the bolt, either way its going straight toward your face.
If you feel safe with your loads in your rifle than so be it. You are probably safe at those pressure becuase marlin chambered the 356 and 375 winchester and I believe they were rated up to 52000 psi (dont quote me on this because I am not 100% on the pressure). I feel safe loading my 35 rem up to about 42000 psi so I am not saying you shouldnt load above published data but just know that the 336 marlin is definatly not as strong as just about any bolt action around.
.
Thanks for your reply, JB
You read correctly but I said that pressure is the same whether in a bolt, lever, pump, or other. Some posters implied that a lever gun designed to operate at 50,000 CUP was far inferior to a bolt gun designed to operate at the same pressure. Shooters continually degrade the Marlin as being a weak action. Just because the 336 is chambered for a 30-30 designed to operate at a max of 38,000 CUP does not mean that the rifle is not capable of higher pressure. The Winchester Mod 70 was chambered for the 30-30, does that does that limit it's max to 38,000 ? No, in fact, I know some mentally challanged shooters who run their Mod 70s at 70,000 to 75,000 PSI. BTW you may notice that your Mod 70 does NOT have a gas deflector at the back of the bolt to devert gases, gas follows the bolt to the shooters face.
The 375 Win run at 52,000 CUP not PSI, CUP and PSI are not the same. That would be close to 60,000 PSI.
Browning and Savage lever guns are much stronger that many bolt actions guns. Comparing weak lever guns to stronger bolt guns is NOT a valid compareison.
One of the strongest bolt guns is the Remington 788. Guess what, the 788 has rear locking lugs and not front locking lugs.
The Krag the 95 Mauser and the early Springfield 1903 are all bolt guns but none are as strong as a Marlin 336 or 1895 (which is also a 336 with enlarged ejection port) The 1895 is maybe a little weaker than the smaller calibers because of the larger dia. 45-70 case thus less metal around the cartridge.
This is intended for information only, not in any way as a "put down". JB ask a valid question and I tried to answer at least in part.
another JB
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JB,
I get what you are saying now. I miss understood what you were trying to say at first.
MontanaMarine Why not look at the 356 Win. 220 in the 2300
range and the 250 in the 21 to 2200 range . Might be what you
are looking for. Cheers NC
Buffalo Bore loads a 220 JFN at 2200 FPS. Don't know what pressure it runs. While I am sure you can load a 35 Rem. to higher pressures than the factory, I've never understood the rationale of trying to make an apple an orange. What practical gain do you hope to get from hotroddin' this great round that is not easier to achieve using a .356 or .375 Win or for that matter a 45-70 or 450 Marlin?
Buffalo Bore loads a 220 JFN at 2200 FPS. Don't know what pressure it runs. While I am sure you can load a 35 Rem. to higher pressures than the factory, I've never understood the rationale of trying to make an apple an orange. What practical gain do you hope to get from hotroddin' this great round that is not easier to achieve using a .356 or .375 Win or for that matter a 45-70 or 450 Marlin?
Life must be dull. But it will not be for long if you are running you 45-70 or 450 Marlin at 2200 fps. (LOL)
.
I am also working on some +P loads. In particular:
180 gr Speer - 2350 fps
200 gr FTX - 2250 fps
220 gr Speer - 2200 fps.
These should all keep the pressures in the 40,000 range. I don't think you should push a Marlin much over 42,000, but I'll also shoot these in a 760 Remington which should handle a lot higher (50,000) pressures.
Some of you gentlemen are determined to protect us from ourselves. Do you work for the government? Thanks for the concern but we are grown men, old men in fact, with many years experience. We don't need lectures on reloading. What is it to you if I blow up my gun? Did you buy it for me? Or do you buy my reloading supplies? Until you do, don't worry about it, you'll just make your self look silly.
Here, here, well said!!!!!
For those who just have to ask why.
I love being at sea during a storm, I love driving fast cars over the speed limit, and I love reloading for the guns I own. I want to get the best out of each of them. Some say I'm crazy, so be it.
I hate flying and am scared [bleep] while you say flying is nothing to be afraid of its one of the safest things in the world. If you think so let me ask you this Are you willing to trust your life to a complete stranger to drive your car as fast as it will go while you are blindfolded? No, then why trust one to fly you anywhere at 5 times the speed your car will do and you can't see out the front either?
I won't ask you to give up anything you love to do; PLEASE show me the same respect.
