I read not long ago about a guy who quite regularly converts 35rem marlin 336's to 356 winchester. What is entailed in this job? Is it a simple rechamber or is it more complicated?

Does anyone know of the guy I'm talking about?

Regan Nonneman in Maryville, MO, does that conversion on a regular basis. It requires more than a rechamber, but the price is around $100, so it is a great deal IMO. I had a 336 CS done last year, along with a trigger job, and the removal of the cross-bolt safety. It will also work with reloads using rimless 358 brass. If I find a 336SC in 35 Remington for a good price, I'll probably buy it and have Nonneman convert it and sell my full magazine 336CS.

Jeff

That's how this hole thing strated. I found a 336 35 rem for 300 canadian. I think I can talk him down to 250 can, so for 100$ I can get a 356 win, wich is what I've been looking for for 2 years.

Can this person listed modify the 35 Rem to .358 Win? They make factory loads for .358. I've only remotely heard of .356. I'm not a hand loader so I don't want to get some odd ball caliber I can't just go buy boxes of ammo for.

I've been looking for a .358 win and the only gun I know of in current manufacture is the Browning BLR. And for some reason I just don't like the straight grip and the looks. The Marlin looks so much better, to me anyhow. And 35 Rem just doesn't have the energy on the ballistic charts I seen to even come close to the knock down power of the .358. The only thing even close is the .444 Marlin. But I still am drawn to the .358 like a moth to a flame. But I just can't get passed the BLR.

The 356win is just a semi rimmed 358 winchester case. It's still loaded by winchester with a 200gr silvertip bullet. It's actually easier to find 356win then 358 win in most areas.

But you can make .358's from .308 brass!! Marlin says this is not a safe conversion.

Why don't you call Nonneman and ask him if he would convert a 35 Rem to 358, if you think that brass for reloading is an issue?????

BTW, what did you expect Marlin to say??? If they said anything but "don't do it, its unsafe", they would be openning themselves up to litigation if a conversion failed. If you rechamber, rebarrel, or reload for any rifle, you void any legitimate claim that you might have against the manufacturer.

I don't think that the availability of brass is a significant issue in the short term. If you do, I would suggest that you buy 100 cases to use and 100 cases to set aside for the long term. Problem solved.

Jeff

I don't and would never make 358 cases out of 308 brass. There's no need. Brass is available, cheap enough and I'd rather have correctly labeled headstamps due to having both calibers in my arsenal.

Besides, neck thickness is a concern when necking up for proper neck tension.

Take care, my impression is that .358 is loaded hotter than .356 and it may be pushing it to use factory ammo or top velocity .358 loads in the Marlin.

Why convert your 35 to a 356? The 35 Remington cartridge is factory loaded to about 28,000 lbs of pressure. Reloading manual recipes are for 28,000 to 30,000 lbs of pressure. A 336 Marlin can withstand 30-30 pressures (42,000 lbs) or 375 pressure (45,000 lbs). A rechambered 35 rifle has to withstand 356 pressures. Speer's reloading manual shows 356 pressure at 52,000 cup (about 50,000 lbs). There is a growing number of reloaders that are reloading over the book maximums. We call the over-loads 35+ shells. My 35 shoots a factory 200 grain shell at 1975 ft/sec. It shots my 35+ shells at 2225 ft/sec (200 grain bullet). What we need is a reloading manual to show safe loads up to 40,000 lbs of pressure. The 45-70 cartridge had the same problem. Now many reloading manuals divid 45-70 into three sections, trap door (the weakest action), Ruger #1's (the strongest action), and everything else (the in-between rifles, such as Marlin and Winchester). Using 35+ reloads, there is just not that much difference between a 35 and a 356. I know because I have owned both 35 and 356.

The heat treating is different on 307/356 receivers than the 30-30/35 Rem receivers. $100 sounds cheap for re-heat treating ,and thus refinishing a receiver. My guess is that the MO 'smith is modifying the bolt and chamber reaming the barrel. Shoot 358 ammo in a 356 chamber only if you want to have the bolt permanently imbedded in your cheek bone.

All he's doing is running a reamer in the barrel, perhaps modifying the extractor, & calling it done. Marlin says it's unsafe to do this. My impression of this conversion is that the people who have this done will be really unhappy down the road. Yes, the basic reciever is dimensionally the same. No the heat-treating of the reciever, and the internal locking bolts, etc. are not the same. Yes, the .444 is made on the same basic reciever, but the .444 has a totally different expansion ratio than the .356 does, and this is a major difference. Feel free to flame away, I'm tough, I won't feel it.

Bob

I would respectfully suggest that Nonneman knows more about Marlin 336s than you or I will ever know. He told me that he Rockwell tests every action that he rechambers and that he has never, no never, found a soft Marlin action.

Where did you get the information that the heat treatment of the 336ER actions was different from any other 336 action? My contact at Marlin told me that that 336ER actions were no different than any other 336. Of course Marlin would say the conversion is unsafe, their liability attorneys wouldn't allow them to say anything else. Besides, anyone with half a brain knows that you void any warranty, written or implied, when you customize any commercial firearm.

I have had a couple of original 336ERs and currently have a couple of custom 336s in 356 that feed and fire without a hitch. As I recall, Nonneman does some milling to the lever, in addition to running a reamer to cut a new chamber. If you are familiar with the 336 extractor, you'll know that it is just a spring steel clip and is a universal fit for both rimmed and rimless cartridges, so no modification is necessary.

I think that I paid $185 for the 336CS that I had Nonneman rechamber from 35 to 356 and I can't see any reason to be unhappy, now or down the road. It's not like I'm ruinning the collector's value or anything. Heck, if I could find a nice 336A, 336SC, or 336SD in 35, I'd have Nonneman do another conversion for me.

Testimony from a statisfied customer!

Jeff

My original information about special heat-treating is courtesy of Marlins original sales literature. The statement of the conversion not being recommended by Marlin came from Marlins website when this whole discussion first started, several years ago. I am not casting aspersions on Nonnemans intergrity, or the quality of his work, I DO believe Marlin understands their action better than anyone, and that if they do not recommend the conversion, that's good enough for me. I bought a Winchester BigBore so I could have a .356.

Bob

I have a 356 conversion from Regan Nonneman and it is an excellent rifle. You are absolutely right that the receiver of the ER is no different than the standard 336. In fact, you can go to Gun Parts Corp. and look up the parts for each rifle and find that they are the exact same receiver.

How does your conversion 356 shoot in comparsion to your originals, in terms of accuracy and functioning?

I don't have any of the original 336ERs anymore, as the market got so high I couldn't resist selling them.

All of them shoot fine. The best shooter is a 336 stainless with a 24" Douglas barrel that was made by a friend of mine. It is a great shooting rifle that I plan to take moose hunting this coming fall. Nonneman does good work and his prices are impossible to beat. I have less than $300 into the 336CS that he converted for me and it has probably had 200 +/- rounds through it without a hitch. You can't buy a factory produced 356 or 358 for less than $300 anywhere that I know of, so for a guy wanting a 356 to shoot, Nonneman is the way to go.

I have always thought that the Winchester 307 and 356 rifles were finished better than the Marlins, but I much prefer a pistol grip stock, so Marlin was my only choice. Also, Nonneman told me that he won't convert any Winchester 94 actions to 307 or 356, since the heat treatment and Rockwell hardness varies much more than the Marlin 336 actions.

Jeff

Yes, Regan told me that not only does the Rockwell hardness of the Winchesters vary much more, but also that they have nowhere near the hardness of the Marlins and are "very soft," so he won't do a conversion on them.

Here is another thought.

Below is the ballistics between a 356 win and a 444 Marlin in a 20 inch Marlin.

Unless there is some motivation beyond actual hunting results. You can clearly see that a 444 Marlin is essentially a twin of the 356. And there are many 444 marlins out there and can be bought brand new from Marlin with the faster rifle twist to stabilize the heavier bullet weights.

This I copied from the beartooth forum from an alias named Ranchdog.

I've been working with the 444 Marlin steadily for the last couple of years and have JUST started with my 356 Win Marlin 336ER. Basically, it seems that the 356 Win generates about 2360 FPS, the same velocity that my 444 Marlin achieves with a 265-grain bullet. Here is how my ballistic tables compare with the two cartridges. This is just an inital look as I have just started shooting the 356 this week. I use a 3" vital zone for my zero range calculations. With these cartridges I can't see using anything larger as they simply are going to run out of steam beyond 250 yards for big game hunting.
Code:

356 Win - 200 Grain Hornady
179 Yard Zero
YDS VEL FPE DROP
25 2252 2253 0.3
50 2147 2047 1.7
75 2044 1856 2.5
100 1945 1679 2.9
125 1848 1517 2.7
150 1755 1368 1.9
175 1665 1232 0.3
200 1579 1107 -2
225 1497 996 -5.2
250 1420 896 -9.4

Code:

444 Marlin 265-Grain Lee TLC
184 Yard Zero
YDS VEL FPE DROP
25 2266 3022 0.3
50 2174 2781 1.6
75 2084 2555 2.5
100 1996 2344 2.9
125 1910 2147 2.8
150 1827 1964 2.1
175 1746 1795 0.7
200 1668 1638 -1.4
225 1593 1493 -4.3
250 1521 1361 -8.1

to whom it may concern; the 358 is the 308 case expanded to 35 cal, read your history of the 358,,,

Guys

I dont reply here much but i feel i have to. 1) The 307 and 356 winchester cartridges were only chambered in the Winchester 94 XTR Big Bore, which is not only heat treated but the receiver walls are thicker, so its action was built for the additional pressures of these rounds. 2) The .358 case has a little more internal capacity and is thus rated at 52,000 CUP and the .356 is around 48,000 which would definately stress a 336 over time, its not going to blow up immediately but if enough "hot" .358 loads were put through it something bad could happen.

Your best bet is to buy a new BLR in .358 win, Browning now has two models the straight gripped 81' lightweight and another model with a pistol grip and scnabel fore arm which is also a light weight. If you do your research properly one can readily see that the BLR design has it all. 6-1/2 lbs 20" barrel, rotationg bolt that locks up in the front,rack and pinion lever which only takes 60 degrees to actuate. A box magazine which can use spitzer bullets, clean lines, no safety except the folding hammer which is ingenious.A one in 12" twist rate to stabilize any 358 bullet, an excellent recoil pad that makes it feel like my 06. True side ejection, and tapped for a scope, and its trigger is not that bad, but should be tuned by a gunsmith.

While an 81" light-weight may not be the prettiest it sure has no real negatives, unless it doesnt shoot well(but mine does) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> so i guess you could say that im prejudiced, happy hunting guys.

I have a Browning BLR in 358, but I don't care for the straight grip stock and the damn magazine hunging below the receiver. I much prefer shooting my pistol grip stocked 336 CS and find that 3 rounds, plus 1 in the chamber, balances the best for me.

Your input is, as always, appreciated, but I think that Regan Nonneman is an excellent 'smith and wouldn't do these conversions if they were dangerous. I use both 356 and 358 brass, but I load the 358 to 356 pressure levels. If you review my posts, you won't find me advocating full pressure 358 loads in a Nonneman conversion. Many people like to push their luck/safety for the sake of a few meaningless FPS of velocity, but you won't count me among them. Heck, if you can hunt, you don't even need to shoot very far in most situations.

BTW, if you know anyone who wants a $425 BLR in 358, tell him/her to email me.

Jeff

I have a 30-30 converted to 307 by Nonneman works great and I would do it again.

The basic fault with the Browning BLR in all its variations and permutations is that it is UGLY.

Well, so are you and you dont see me bashing you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Really, ugly? Are you dating your rifles or using them for hunting? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Why ruin a perfectly good Marlin...just buy a Winchester in 356!

It's a Marlin thing. Besides for many people, the geometry of a straight grip stock just doesn't work as well as the pistol grip style. Add to that they fact, and it is a fact, that Marlin 336s are among the most accurate out-of-the-box CF rifles that you can buy and Winchester 94s aren't even in the same area code.

Jeff

Additionally, 356 Win cases can be made from 444 Marlin cases with one pass through tthe 356/358 die and trimming. I have done it hundreds of times. Works great.

Our society has always been eager to sue to get easy money,
and gun mfgs have always been aware of that and always overbuilt because of it. I have converted several 30/30s
to 307, 7mm mags to STWs & 35s to 358s, including my own
XP100, which originally was a 221 fireball; rebarreled to 35,
then rechambered to 358. Milled out receiver port for easy ejection. Don't know of a professional job gone wrong. A professional won't do a job if it will endanger anyone.

264Bore,

NOPE, Marlin also chambered their 336 ER in 356.

This question seems to keep popping up, so I'm going to add my 2 cents' worth.

First, the fact that Marlin does not approve someone rechambering their guns says nothing beyong the fact that they have a good liability lawyer advising them. Virtually every manufacturer says the same thing about adjusting their triggers. Does this mean that their triggers are unsafe after adjustment? Not necessarily--just that they could be made that way by an improper adjustment.

Nowhere in print have I found confirmation that the heat treatment of the 336ER receivers was different than that of receivers for the .444 etc.

Several years ago, I read an article (by Jim Carmichael, IRC) in which the author converted a 336CS in .35 Rem. to what he called the .356 Rimless. The only modification was running a .358 WCF chambering reamer into the existing barrel. He found that .358 WCF cases (not loaded rounds) easily fed and extracted in the Marlin rifle. In the converted rifle, he was easily able to achieve .356 ballistics, without any apparent harm to the rifle or excessive case expansion, etc. He sensibly never tried to match the ballistics of the .358.

This was a pure wildcat cartridge in that he was using .358 cases but loading them at .356 levels. This is a vitally important point. I understand that the safe pressure limit for a Marlin lever action is 44,000 CUP--the level at which the .444 Marlin is loaded. The .358 WCF is loaded to 52,000 CUP. Firing a factory .358 load or the hand-loaded equivalent in a converted 336 is courting disaster. The potential for someone to do exactly that is why Marlin is so adamant that their rifle should not be converted.

The literature on the .307 and .356 WCFs suggested that they were also loaded to 52,000 CUP. Based on the information in various loading manuals, I would say that information is inaccurate. There is little data available for the .356, but the .307 makes an equally instructive example.

Compare the data for 150-grain bullets in both the .308 and the .307. In every case, charges of the same powders and muzzle velocities are significantly lower in the .307. Some people have said that .307 cases have a smaller internal capacity. I doubt it. They are exactly what they appear to be--.308 cases with a small rim. The .307 and .356 were simply loaded at lesser levels and lesser pressures than their rimless cousins just as the 7x57R is loaded to lesser levels than the 7x57. If you doubt this, take a look at the starting loads for the .308, and you will see that they are usually close the the maximum load listed for the .307. And the chamber pressure of those .308 loads is often right around 43,000-44,000 CUP.

There is probably no reason that a 336 should not be converted to a .356, but like any rifle firing a non-standard cartridge, you can't afford to be brainless in the way that you load it. You have to be content to work within the constraints of the Marlin lever action. To do otherwise is to risk a blown-up rifle and personal injury at worst or a ruined action at best.

With above in mind, I have often wondered whether the performance of the .356 could be duplicated or at least approached with the .35 Rem, if it was loaded to the same pressure of 44,000 CUP. After all, it has roughly the same internal capacity as a .300 Savage. That would certainly be a lot easier than rechambering and trying to scrounge up .358 or .356 brass.

Does anyone have a website or phone # for the gentleman who does the 35-356 conversions?

Regan Nonnmean 660.927.3401
Here is his website: Regan Nonnmean
BTW, I recently bought a Nonnmean converted 35 to 356 Win from 260Remguy. I have not had the opportunity to shoot it (just got brass) but 260Remguy vouches for him.
Regan does one heck of a trigger job on Marlins, however. He did one on the 336 I have and it is l-i-g-h-t!
Joe
in Houston

Regan is a great guy to talk to and might be the best Marlin 'smith out there today. I doubt that there is anything that Marlin could tell Regan that he doesn't already know about the 336 series. He does a lot more than the 30-30 to 307 and 35 Rem to 356 conversion. Those jobs are just filler work for when he has other jobs running, like making octagon and 1/2r-1/2o barrels, on his CMC mills.

Jeff

Steelhead

You missed the point- the XTR big bore is a beefed up 94 what i was saying was that both of those cartridges were never chambered, by the original manufacturer, in the weaker, basic 94 action.

Interesting thread! I have a 336A made in 1949 with a badly pitted bore. Is the 1949 action suitable for rebarreling to 356?

What hardness does Nonneman look for in an action? I have a machinist friend who can have hardness testing done for free.

You are correct. Been there and done that.

By the way, for you doubters, those are MARLIN parts lists, not something Numrich/Gun Parts cooked up.

For what it is worth....

SAAMI maximum pressure for the following cartridges is the SAME at 52,000 CUP:

.307 Win
.308 Win
.356 Win
.358 Win
.375 Win

Well, my first post here.

I did a search for this topic - converting a Marlin 336 from 35 Remington to 356 Winchester.

I have brass, dies and bullets for the 356, but sold my Winchester 94AE a while back while unempolyed.

I want to have a 356 chambered levergun, but don't want to pay the price that the Winchesters are going for.

I've read through this thread and I have to say that I agree with 260 Remguy's posts. The 356 Winchester is a much more energetic round than the 35 Remington. For example (from my load books) I see that the the 35 Rem pushes a 200 grain bullet to 2000 fps (rounding up) and the 356 pushes the same bullet past 2500 fps. That's a 25% increase in kinetic energy. But more to the point, the 356 pushes the 220 grain bullets to 2450 vs the 35 Rem's 1900. I don't put all of my faith into kinetic energy but when you have the same bullet, it's a valid parameter for comparison. Especially when you're not out-performing the bullet's construction.

Yes, you can boost the operating pressure of the 35 Rem, but you have the same brass to work with. I'd rather just set the rifle up correctly to use the thicker brass and larger rim diamter of the .356 Win.

I've read in this thread that the Win 94AE's twist rate is 1:12 - really? I don't think that is correct- to my knowledge, it is 1:16 just like all of the other standard 35 calibers.

I've read here that Winchester was the only company to chamber their leverguns in .356 Win - "bzzzz" incorrect - Marlin also chambered the 336 in this caliber (along with .307 Win).

I've read here that Marlin heat treats their actions differently for different calibers - again, I think this is eroneous. It doesn't make any sense either - why would Marlin incurr the extra expense of having different processes when they can heat treat all fo their actions to the highest strength for less money? I'm talking economy of scale.

Finally, I've read that Marlin does not recommend this conversion - no kidding! Why would they? Liability has been mentioned - totally valid. And it also doesn't make good business sense for them - they would be saying in effect "don't buy a new Marlin - use an old one..." Yeah, right - they don't want another sale... nope.

If I can find a good used 336 in 35 Remington, it's going to the gunsmith listed in this thread.

Thanks for the good read and information - made up my mind.

Well, I found a good 336RC to purchase for this conversion. I spoke with Mr. Nonneman (nice guy!) and I can purhcase it and have it shipped to him and then do an ffl transfer when he's done with it - about 6 weeks. :up:

I'm pretty pumped about this - I liked the caliber but I must say that I never really "bonded" with the 94AE. Not sure why but partly because the action wasn't like my other 94's or my Marlins- kinda sticky and would jam occasionally - with a round stuck partway out of the magazine. I didn't like that at all. This is something that my Marlin's have never done.

Again, thanks to all for the information/feedback. I'll be posting pics and range results when I get this.

May I ask when your 94AE was made? I bought mine in 86 or 87. It has the monte carlo comb and has never malfunctioned and with a scope on it will give bolt actions a run for their money. That's with factory 200g bullets.

Mine was made in the late 90's - straight stock and cross-bolt safety.

I liked it, just that the action was finicky and I didn't really trust it.

ETA - don't get me wrong - I have three 94's and love em. All are chambered in 30-30 - a pre-64, an early 70's with the weird alloy receiver and an AE model. All shoot and cycle perfectly. I also have an old original 95 Win in 30 US that I really like.

Just curious mainly. I have had my diappointments with Win. Mod94 in the past too.

Well, I was just going to purchase a replacement for the one I sold but when I saw the prices.... I started looking for Marlins (which are actualy even higher) but one thing lead to another and found the references to conversions of the 336 RC's.

I'd thought of this back last fall but never got anywhere with it at that time - didn't know if it was feasible or not...

Look for this article; ".356 Rimless," Ron Carmichael, Cast Bullets, Special Edition 1992.

Thanks - I did a search and failed to locate that article but I did find this: http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=17837&page=1

More information.