i'm trying to decide on a new gun... i want a short, light, handy rifle for short-range @55-whompin' (under 200 yards). i handload, so ammo variety/availability is a non-issue. i abhor brakes and ports, so anything that comes w/ that stuff is out.

i'm thinking a stainless/laminate marlin 450 will fill the bill, but the local dealer tells me the 444 is a superior cartridge. he has both on hand, so it probably doesn't make much difference to him which way i go.

suggestions? thoughts?

If I were going .45 cal, it would be a .45/70.

I would got with the 22-inch barrel - it tames the muzzle flip as well as a compensator, and is a whole lot less noisy.

My .444 has a 24-inch barrel and settles on target like a fly on honey. A hunting partner liked it so much he bought a new 1895 in .45/70 and worked up some MOA loads for deer with 300-gr XTP at 1825 fps.

Obviously debatable. The 45-70 is more powerful and can shoot just as "flat" as the 444. What might make someone consider the 444 as superior might be a detraction to someone else.
I don't think there is an XTP that will work in the 45-70. Did you mean the Hornady .458" 300 grain hollow point, Item #4500? That bullet has worked well in my Marlin 1895 for 30 years.

I have 450 Marlin in a XLR and I love it. I understand many people have a real attachment and feel the 450 is is the same class� so be it.

That said� I believe the 450 is top of the class and much better than the 444.

I also hand load and there are no problems there�

For what it�s worth

I like the shorter guide guns and 45/70 is available in 3 levels of destruction for times when stuff happens and you don't have time to reload a box or three.

That said, given the options, I'd take the 450 because it will do anything the 444 will do with a bigger and heavier bullet AND it's harder to find the short barreled 444.

so... what is the performance difference between 45-70 and 450 marlin?

what i am hearing is the 450 is probably at least as powerful as the 444, and probably more powerful? meaning same weight bullets at more velocity?

thanks for the help, fellas.

I've much experience with all 3. I like the 444SS with 22" barrel the best. The ss/laminated Marlins suck. Heavy, shiney, and unwieldy are not preferred attributes.....

The 444SS will easily take deer/black bear/elk with the proper load. And contrary to what some might tell you, it is a might flatter shootin' than the others......

Should have added, the Speer 270gr Gold-dot and 300gr Uni-cor put any XTP to shame in the 444..........

I have been using a 444 since 1993 and love it. I shoot the Hornady 265's exclusively and never felt I needed to go bigger. I use to argue myself that it was better then the 45-70 with people such as Jackfish on another site. Now I see that they are different but both are great. I am actually looking for a 45-70 now to fool around with and hunt with. I do agree with the above, if going to the 45 caliber choice, I would opt for the 45-70

i thought the 450 marlin was just an 'improved' 45-70? if so, why would you rate the 45-70 ahead of the 450?

With a modern firearm such as a Marlin 1895, there is no real difference. The 45-70 has a much larger selection of factory ammo, loading data and even with bullets of same weight and bullet design will beat the 450 in velocity. Again I love the 444 marlin but if going 45 cal, go with one that has proven itself for 100+ yrs. Components such as cases, dies, etc are also readily available

What he said. I can goto Gander Mt and buy plinking, deer, and "long range" loads off the shelf in 45/70; only bear/long range stuff for the 450.

If I had the $$ I'd have at least 1 of each along with a 35, 375, and a 356 for good measure.

i would take the 45-70 components as far as price and availibility are much better than the 450 and their is no difference in power.....infact you will prolly hit uncomfortable to shoot before you run out of power in those light lil carbines......would take the 45 over the 444 just cause the huge variety of bullets for the 45 be it the 450 or 45-70......alot of 444 bullets are meant for 44 mag velocities.

Bullet selection is everything.......

sold!

i'll be in the denver area next week, so i'll do a little price and comparison shopping at bass pro while i'm there and either order what i want when i get back, or pick it up while i'm there if they've got enough different examples that i can make an educated decision...

I've got a Winchester "Timber Scout" in 444,
and a Winchester "Timber" in 450, I also have 2 rifles in 45/70.
The 45/70 is alot easier to feed with more choices available.
The 450 is impressive, but gets painful quick to both the shoulder and wallet.
Honestly the 444 gets the nod more often when heading out to the deer stand.

I have a 444P and like it alot. If I was going 45 caliber and reloading I'd go with the 45-70.

When both the 45-70 Gov't and 444 Marlin are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" (as in equivalent trajectory) as the 444 Marlin while delivering more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.

Name the 444 Marlin load for a Marlin lever gun you believe shoots "a might flatter" than the 45-70 and it is likely I have shot a 45-70 load or I can likely find a 45-70 load that shoots as flat or flatter.

Over the last 50 years I've owned many a gun, including two different .45-70s, but never a .450. I'm not a collector but like to work up loads and hunt, hunt, hunt! I tend to keep only the guns that feel right for me and that I enjoy shooting. My favorite .45-70 was a Ruger No 1, but even that one didn't get used much, so I no longer own a .45-70. My choice is .444 and I have both versions - a Marlin .444 w/1.5-4.5x Nikon Monarch scope and and Marlin .444 Outfitter w/XS ghost ring sights. I lived in Colorado for many years and frequently go back. Whether there or in the SE Oklahoma woods (bigfootville) one of my .444s is along.

The .45-70 is a great round with lots of history but the .444 is still my favorite. Just get the one you like and gon't look back.

I would like to see that,also!

Jayco

Leverevoution for both.

444
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -1.4 -18.6

45/70
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.5 3.0 -4.1 -27.8

and the 450
Muzzle 100 yd 200 yd 300 yd
-1.7 3.0 -2.2 -21.3

I would not use Hornady's new bullet in any firearm I own.Buffalo Bore is known for loading it's ammo to maximum acceptable pressures.

Buffalo Bore Ammunition!
444 Marlin
335 grain @2025 FPS/3049 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-22)
300 grain @2150 FPS/3078 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-3) 200yds (-10) 250yds (-21)
270 grain @ 2250 FPS/3034 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-3) 200yds (-9) 250yds (-18)

45-70
430 grain @1925 FPS/3537 FPE 100 yards (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-24)
405 grain @ 2000 FPS/3597 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-4) 200yds (-11) 250yds (-23)
350 grain @ 2150 FPS/3592 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-3) 200yds (-10) 250yds (-20)
500 grain @ 1650 FPS/2931 FPE 100yds (0) 150yds (-6) 200yds (-17) 250yds (-33)
300 grain @ 2350 FPS/3678 FPE 100 yds (0) 150yds (-2) 200yds (-8) 250yds (-18)

As you can see,the 45-70 shoots as flat as the 444 Marlin with a 300 grain bullet compared to a 270 grain bullet in the 444 which gives the 45-70 644 more foot pounds of energy(FPE) in doing so.I am not knocking the 444 Marlin in any way as it is a good caliber but whatever the 444 can do,the 45-70 can equal or better.

Jayco

I can't leave out the .450 Marlin.I don't have time today to run the ballistics for comparison but how close can the 444 come to these velocities?A 300 grain Nosler at 2488 fps in a 24" barrel or even put it in a 26" Cowboy for over 2500 fps in a 45-70.


Off to Lewiston.

Jayco

I know that there are a number of people who just like the 45-70 over the 450 marlin, but I think it is important to emphasize that there really is no noticable difference between the two. 25 to 50 FPS is often within the average spread of rounds sent downrange, and again, we're talking max loads that few of us do very often. The handloader would most likely never know any difference at all in performance. Not that the 45-70 isn't a good old gun, and I agree that many places have more choices in ammo for it than the 450 marlin, I just hate to see the 450 made to look like it has anything like a significant shortcoming to its older brother.

Having the 450 and 444 in both rifle and pistol (10 inch BFR's), and handloading both, I think it safe to say that the 450 (and 45-70) is in the next league to the 444 in power and bullet weight, but lighter weight bullets with appropriate cross sections, and downrange performance can be surprising with the 444. It doesn't do too well with bullet weights above 350 or so, and certainly looses accuracy on my old 444s with bullet weights of 405 and up, but it's a good elk and bear gun (lets face it, anything on North America), and is more comfortable to shoot than 500 grain hammerheads. Having said that, 200 yards and under there's no doubt the 45-70 or 450 Marlin can shoot the same bullet weight flatter and with more power than the triple duece (and more kick). The shine of the 444 comes at long ranges with 270 to 300 grains, doing things sportsmen really shouldn't do for typical game hunting (but is nice to know it will).

For the original question (or the one on a similar post of elk) with a 444 or 450, either will do the job and the elk will be just as dead on the first shot if the shooter does their part, so would a black bear or white tail. And the kick will be more pleasant (sans light loads in the 450/45-70). Is the 450/45-70 more destructive? Yes. Heck, just get a Barret 50 cal and compare that to a 444, if power is what you want to compare. But there is just something about the 444 that appeals to some of us, like an old friend that you know won't let you down. It isn't the biggest guy on the block, but it doesn't take a back seat to anyone for the hunts I do.

Recoil with the 525 grain Pile Drivers and 550 grain Craters in the 45-70 is a much milder push than the snap of a 300/350/400 grain bullet at an acceptable velocity,atleast,to me and most others that shoot them,agree.I think most people just assume,as i did before doing it myself,the recoil of the 500+ grain bullets is brutal..Not even close to a 400 grain at 1950 fps or a 300 grain at 2350 or a 350 grain at 2150 but that is just my opinion after shooting them all from 250 to 550 grains in the 45-70.

The 444 is a fine caliber as the 450 Marlin and I am personally happy they came out with the 450 Marlin which gave us some data with the better bullets out there the reloading manuals seems to ignore or update for the Big Bore leverguns.

It is all in what tickles a guys fancy,I suppose, as to which caliber in Big Bore leverguns suits his fancy.

Jayco

"Recoil with the 525 grain Pile Drivers and 550 grain Craters in the 45-70 is a much milder push than the snap of a 300/350/400 grain bullet at an acceptable velocity,atleast,to me."


Back in the late '70s when I started reloading I thought the idea was to make things go BOOM! I began with a 357 JP Saurer 6 shooter. I was going to do my best to get it to go through an engine block with a 170 grain full jacketed bullet. I used to load it with Red Dot until I had to tap the brass out of the chamber. Never did get it to bust through that block, buy did just about ruin the gun, even had to have the ejection rod replaced from tapping it.

Somewhere a long the line God took pity on an idiot and I got New Model Super Blackhawk in 44 mag, and learned that slower powdwers sometimes give faster results with big bullets. A good corallary are the big black powder sharps that would drive big bullets a long way. Usually they didn't go real fast, but they didn't always kick like a mule either.

I know what you're saying, and agree. I was talking about the loads I.make up for heavies, as well as many of the loads for 300 grain bullets in 45 calibres speeding along faster than possible in 444 frames. Usually (though not always) these are loaded for speed and tend to kick a might, but a good reloader can do a lot with a proper load and powder.

kcnboise I sent you a PM hoping to get an answer
Ken43

"i'm thinking a stainless/laminate marlin 450 will fill the bill, but the local dealer tells me the 444 is a superior cartridge. he has both on hand, so it probably doesn't make much difference to him which way i go.

suggestions? thoughts? "

theres ZERO question in my experiance that the 45 calibers (450 marlin or 45/70) when loaded with a decent hard cast 400 grain bullet is a superior choice to the 444 marlin on larger game when loaded with anything available Ive seen the results from,(BTW the 265 grain and 300 grain hornadys work ok)
And Ive seen both the 44 and 45 caliber marlins used several times and have seen them used many times with both factory and handloads and used the 45 calibers with both hard cast and factory jacketed bullets myself on deer and ELK.
while the balistic charts may not fully indicate the potential a 45 caliber 400-420 grain hard cast bullet has it is fully up to 250-300 yard ELK.


ID also point out that BROWNING MAKES the 450 marlin in a front locking action (THE BLR) which is far stronger than the marlin

http://www.browning.com/products/ca...alue=003B&cat_id=034&type_id=015

you guys might recall from history that there was 60 million bison that got killed off mostly with rifles that had trajectories that were not as powerful or flat shooting as the current 45/70 or 450 marlin and shots out WELL past 200 yards were comonly made,when someone says the 45 caliber rifles are only good out to 200 yards or so, ..what they are really saying is "I can,t judge ranges and don,t know my rifles trajectory, drop and wind drift well enought to make accurate predictions on how to hold further out" in fact the trajectory of that shot made at adobe wells at something like 1800 yards was made with a rifle with a far more curved trajectory than most of you gentelmen would think about useing , it just took an experianced shot with familiar equipment and a bit of luck, something we all need to aquire.
BTW IVE seen the 8" dia ,500 yard gong at one range being hit consiatantly with a 450 marlin rifle so its well within reason to expect an experianced shot who knows his equipment to hit well past 300 yards

I've got a safe full of Leverguns 30-30's, 357 mag. 44 mag's, 35 Rem's , 375 win.s, 444, 45/70 and a 450 M...
They all have there Merits ,The 45/70- 450 M are much the same beast if you handload ,if not the 450M,as for the 444M being better ,well I look at the 444M differently than most ,I look as if it was a bit lighter kicking than the 45-70 450 m, but close to there power range...By no means am I puting one over the other though ...they are different...The 444 is a great round balisticly equal to the great 405 Win. and the 444 M has simalar balistics to the 400 Whelen
But if you want a thumper ,I'd lean toward the 45/70 - 450 M

I 've used the 45/70 (handloaded) on Bigger Black Bears with great success, the tough little 300gr. Speer bullet is a great bullet ,listed as a hollow point ,but only has a slight indention,the bullet can be pushed fast,in ethier a 45-70 or 450m.

Buckeye,

You can get a 300 grain bullet downrange out of your 444 at 2450 fps? That's what I'm getting out of my 405 Win. Now, no flies on the 444, but the ballistic equivalent of the 405 Win is a bit of a stretch. Even loading manuals show 2100 fps pretty well max for the 444 - 300. Factory 405Win - 300 are steaming at 2275 out of my #1.

Believe me when Jackfish tells you it,its the gospel. He has extensive knowledge where these cartridges are conscerned.

Back in '99...I bought a Marlin 444-P....mainly because I had a very generous supply of 44 cal 240 gr bullets...I've settled on the Hornady 265 gr..but the 270 & 300 gr bullets from Speer are very impressive with the 444.....

I believe it was Brian Pierce who made the observation that the 444 Marlin load is about 75% of the power of a 45-70 when you hand load, with commensurate less recoil. 75% of the power is all I need, and thank you very much for the reduced recoil!

I only own a 444.. bought it new for $219.00 in 1981 at Mills Fleet Farm in Brooklyn Park MN..

My buddy had to buy a 45/70 to just have one bigger than mine..

While folks always sling trajectory numbers and foot lbs etc, to act like one cartridge is superior to another...

on this subject, I got all my information in the field...

you can argue a 45/70 is superior and a 450 Marlin is superior to that.. and the 444 is inferior to both...

however any animal that has gotten in the way of a bullet within a 175 yrds of my 444, has had one reaction.. Dead right there...

and I don't know how either the 45/70 or the 450 Marlin can show any improvement upon that.....

and my handloads are never full power loads either.. I have come to rely on the 300 grain XTP with an MV of around 1700 fps...

that recoils much less than the faster loads.. allowing younger boys to be able to shoot it, as I train a lot of kids how to shoot attached to Boy Scouts...

of all of my rifles, the 444 is the Boys favorite, because they can shoot it with my handloads but go crazy over the destructive power it wields over any other caliber I have...

3 shots and they topple a tree out in the woods, these kids feel like Tarzan...( and for the tree huggers, we have lots of trees locally here in Oregon, so don't get your pants in a wad..)

for accuracy, my 444 shoots circles around any 30/30 I have ever owned ...and it has put many a 45/70 to shame...

Just bought a 444 marlin for bear hunting. Hope I like it.

John, I'm sure you will love it.A buddy of mine has a 444 and loves it. I bought a 45-70 last week. I think the best advice on this question was to get the one you like and don't look back. That's what I did. Enjoy the rifle and let us know how the bear hunting goes. I'm a new member myself and these folks are a lot of help. Tons of good information here. Welcome to the fire

I have a Marlin 444SS, and really like the gun. I bought it for bear hunting, but am going to use it on deer this year as well. I've worked up a load for the 265 gr Hornady FN, and the 300 gr XTP. I may settle on the Speer 270 gold dot as a replacement for both, if I can ever find them and begin load development.

Everyone has their favorites. My brother has a 450 XLR and loves it, but I see no real advantage of the 450 over the 444 in the areas we hunt. I get a little flatter trajectory, he gets a little more wallop, but we are generally shooting in thick areas at less than 100 yards, generally.

I am shooting a 444 with 300 speers around 2000fps with 18.5 inch barrel. It is very accurate and not too bad on the shoulder. I think factory 300 gr loads for 45-70 are around 1850fps.

Both the .444 and .45-70 shooting a 300-gr bullet at 1,800 fps is usually a very accurate load from the Marlin rifles, too. It is easy on the shoulder, too.

My 24-inch barrel Marlin .444 shoots the 265 Hornady and 270-gr Speer at 2400 fps, which is flat enough trajectory for iron sights, and these are devastating bullets that were really designed for the .444.

.


"As you can see,the 45-70 shoots as flat as the 444 Marlin with a 300 grain bullet compared to a 270 grain bullet in the 444 which gives the 45-70 644 more foot pounds of energy(FPE) in doing so.I am not knocking the 444 Marlin in any way as it is a good caliber but whatever the 444 can do,the 45-70 can equal or better."

Jayco

The 45-70 can even rattle you cage harder!

I have taken the time to read every post in this thread and I just want to say that JACKFISH is correct with his information period. Pick your game and then match your bullet and velocity simply put. I once had a Cowboy 45/70 but got rid of it as it was really NOT the hunting rifle I thought I could use in the woods. The Marlin 1895 model is a hunters rifle and either caliber will bring home the bacon or elk steaks.

Now I own both a Marlin 1895 in a .444 caliber and a Marlin 1895 in the 45-70 caliber. Both are outstanding rifles in the field or dark timber. I use the .444 on the smaller game and the 45-70 on the bigger animals.

The 45/70 goes with me in the saddle scabbard when elk hunting. No more trying to get the rifle & scope out of a scabbard when a bear or moose is at your backside.

Those levers come out like a knife going through hot butter! Either one of these rifles can be used on all game up to the size of a big moose, bull elk or grizzly bear.

This reminds me of the ol 30-06 vs. 270 argument, no one will ever convince the other, both think theirs works, both are right.
As nice as the 444 is, it is limited by its choice of projectiles. Finding heavily constructed .429" bullets is more difficult than choosing proper bullets for the .450/.45-70.
Of course, if one is determined to avoid handloading, then a couple boutique manufacturers produce loads they swear are great-together with the commensurate price tag.
Truth is, the 444 will always be relegated to lighter bullets of less than optimal construction. This does not mean that it will not work, it means that it will not work as well as the .450/.45-70.
The sheer knockdown power of the larger caliber cannot be dismissed,and the variety of bullet weights and velocities truly make both the .45 cal. cartridges extremely flexible and practical.
The .45-70 has been declared dead as often as the .45 Colt. The .450 is really just legitimizing what handloaders have done with the 45-70 since smokeless powder became available.
If one predominately chooses to face down lighter, thin skinned game all three will work quite well within their limitations. If the menu includes larger and more formidable adversaries, then the top choices are the .45s.

You can only kill something so dead, and so quickly.
The .444 will will most critters in their tracks. The .444 is as powerful as many .40-caliber classic African cartridges.

The 265-gr Hornady and Speer 270-gr Gold Dot are tough bullets designed for the .444 rifles.

Beretta, Rizzini, Krieghoff and Merkel build double rifles in .444 for dangerous game hunting up close on the ground. These rifles have been used on African lion, 500-lb European boars, l,000 pound bear, and 2,000 pound Cape buffalo and water buffalo.

And stunts all. For the one manufacturer that builds a 444 rifle, I wouldn't characterize that effort as "for dangerous game." The 444 Marlin is not a dangerous game round and the 45-70 is marginal at best. They sure wasn't usin' a 265 grain Hornady or 270 grain Speer for those feats!

The 444 Marlin is not listed as a caliber available in Beretta, Krieghoff or Merkel rifles. The Rizzini is not chambered for any round that could be considered adequate for dangerous game, except for maybe the 9.3x74R, which again is marginal at best.

Jackfish and Tonk, I hear what you are saying, but for me, the 265 Hornady, 270 Speer, 300 Hornady and a good hard cast lead bullet over 300 grains would meet all my envisioned hunting needs with a 444, and would not thump me as hard as a hot loaded 45/70 or a .450 Marlin. So while the bullet choices for the 444 are not as broad as for the 45 caliber, they are good enough for what most of us will want to do with a big bore lever action.

Well said, Dogger.
How many bullets do you need in a .444?
240 for deer.
265 or 270 for bear, moose, elk, big boar
300 gr cast for big moose and big bear.

Then perhaps you shouldn't imply that the 444 Marlin is adequate for African dangerous game.

Jackfish, I hope no one intepreted my posts to imply that the 444 is adequate for African game. If you look back thru my posts it is obvious i did not state such a thing. Brian Pearce has demonstrated the devastating effects of a properly loaded 45/70 on cape buffalo. i would take his selection and experience to the bank. the fact that he used a 45/70 instead of a 444 speaks volumes to me, because he is fond of both.

Sorry Dogger, perhaps my rant was better directed towards Lee24. I apologize.

Rant on. I was answering the original poster, who is planning to hunt in South Dakota. I used the fact that a .444 will kill, and has killed, dangerous game from bears to buffalo as evidence that it is sufficient for any bears, moose, elk or wild boar inside 200 yards in North America. So will the .30-06.

The .444's stopping ability on angry bears is proven in records keep by the Alaska DNR, US Forest Service and USFWS. I bought my .444 from its original owner, who carried it for protection in Alaska, and used it to flatten a 450-lb black bear which charged him, using the 240-gr Remington ammo.

The .375 H&H is a lot hotter than a .444 Marlin, and it is inadequate for some situations. A .470 Nitro Express doesn't do much good on an angry big critter if you miss bone. There are plenty of recorded instances of just such "bullet failures".

To me, the .444 and .45-70 with reasonable loads are a toss up.
Get the rifle that appeals to you. Personally, I would stay away from porting and short barrels. 22 inches or reduces a lot of apparent recoil and noise.

Hey JACKFISH!!! I forgive YA....LOL

Now Dogger, I own and shoot bot those calibers .444 Marlin and 45/70 Marlin rifle. If I were going to shoot grizzly bear with a .444 Marlin, it would be loaded to the hilt with powder and those BEARTOOTH hardcast bullets in 325 grainers simply put.

The 45/70 would also be loaded with BEARTOOTH hardcast bullets in the Piledriver version. It will take down African game by the way and several have done so. However, I myself would not use either rifle on African game. I have model 70 Winchester bolt action rifles in various calibers from a .338, 375-Wby, .416 Remington, .458-Lott and a .475 magnum with a 600 grn bullet. Just so you know ok!

Man, this IS the new incarnation of the 30-06 vs. 270 debate!!!
How many bullets do you need? Well, folks, you need only one, and it darn well better be the right one.
Stopping a 450 lbs black bear is ok, but how about stopping a 650 lbs BEAR?
Yep, its all relative. Except for one thing. The heavy .45 Cal.s have the best bullets, period.
I know all about emotional favourites. From the gal with the blonde curly hair, to the favoured cartridges. Heck, I love the 33 WCF, and the 348 WCF. It is an attachment that does not hear the word nay.
The simple reason the 444 stays around is because it has a following of vocal, and fanatical interest. The reality is that 44 cal. pistol bullets will never be more than a stop gap for rifle performance.
Sure, the 444 puts down game, sure the 444 can be made to work in tight spaces. This does not, will not, cannot, mean it is anything approaching the best choice.
The 30 WCF is beloved by many, and it is often used to take Elk in my area, but this does not mean the 30 is an Elk cartridge.
The 444 was for a long time the only big bore levergun cartridge offered in new arms. Marlin did us all a service by keeping the big bore levergun alive. Yet Marlin did the unthinkable, and really unleashed stopping power when they released the 45-70 and the 450.
So, please, save the sagely somber tones about how the 444 stops a locomotive at 1,000 paces. The 444 works, but the .45s just work better.

I've owned the 444, 45-70, and the 450. I have come to prefer the two 45 caliber cartridges. Of your two choices, the 450 is the way I would go. YMMV.

MAK........ You need to gather just a little more information from the Beartooth Bullet Sight, when it comes to degrading the capabilities of the .444 Marlin understand.

Now I have no axe to grind because I own a couple of those .444 Marlins and 45/70 models. Yes, the 45/70 is the big brother of the household but the .444 Marlin loaded with those 325 grn. weighted Beartooth Bullets will handle anything in North America to a tea! Now that would include any 1000-lb bear you want to send to my backyard savvy.

Hey All,

I love my 444s and the power it has as "Thunder from the God's" on whitetails...

45/70's have always been another favorite of mine, it has been around forever and will always have a special place in my aresenal...

This season, however I am going with something new... A 450M and I'll carry it with me in the North Georgia Bear woods opening day of Bear Season... Loaded to the BORE (pardon the pun) with Hornady 350 Grain Flat Points...

If that does not knock him down, my side arm is a 460ES with Hornady 200 Grain SST's... I'll just have to wait til I get a whiff of his breath before I unload it into him...

I do not handload some I am a slave to the factory loads...

Thinking about getting some Buffalo Bore 430's - KA-BOOM!!!

Happy Hunting Y'all!!!

Ron

that about sums up my feelings also!
but Id add in a BROWNING BLR as I've found a 450 marlin caliber BLR exceptionally accurate