Will my new 444 handle the same range of game as the 45-70, including the big bears?

I would say no to the big bears. Oh sure it will do it, but the 45-70 has heavier bullet choices for breaking thru a large bear...at least I'd opt for the 45-70 versus a 444 if I had the choice.

Factory loads for the 45-70 offer heavier bullets (350-405s ect.)that in theory would offer greater penetration than factory 444s which are usually 240-265gr.
When the 444 is loaded with heavy for caliber hardcast bullets,(300-355s) lack of penetration on big game is not an issue. Although I havent killed any big bears with each to compare them, I have killed a couple elk and many deer with complete pass throughs, never recovering a bullet.
I wouldnt feel under-gunned with either, but my favorite of the two is the 444. To me it does everything the 45-70 can do, and it seems to shoot flatter doing it.
That being said, im not sure there is a caliber invented yet that would make me feel warm and fuzzy when facing a charging bear. If I was hunting big bears and had time to pick my shot, either will get the job done if loaded with the right bullet.

What flinch said.......right load and shot placement. Either one will do the job.

This is much akin to the 44 Magnum versus "Ruger Only" 45 Colt loads argument in handguns. A hot-rodded 45 Colt, in the right gun, with the right components, will do anything the 44 Magnum will do and with less pressure... But... both benefit by judicious handloading and as Flinch444 points out, with heavy for caliber hardcast bullets.

The 444 can't keep up with the 45 in overall bullet weight, but you could choose hardcast bullets for either, in excess of 300 grains, that would plow through big critters from stem to stern in a big way. How much killin' is overkill? Do you want a 428 hole with flatter trajectory and less recoil, or a 458 hole with a bit more arc and more recoil?

I think either rifle, properly hand-loaded, with the shot properly placed, would be considered more than sufficient to put down a big bear that is not in an agitated state on the first shot.

Disclaimer: all this blather comes from me, who has not shot a big bear with a lever action...

for your reading pleasure:

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

Good read-Thanks

Agree and have a look at marlinowners.com they have a whole forum just on the .444 Marlin.

Wow after reading that I'm going to get some 405gr slugs for my 444P!!!

Unfortunately I couldn't figure how to copy & paste the tables, but if you do the Taylor KO for both calibers, you'll see that out to 100 yds, they are rated equally - 'excellent' for everything from bobcat to moose and blackbear, and 'good' for brown, griz and cape buffalo. At 200 yards, the 444 drops to marginal for cape buffalo, while the 45-70 maintains a good rating out to 300 yds for all bears and cape buff. However, at 200 yds, the 444 is still rated good for all bears. This was with a 265 gr fp @ 2370 fps for the 444 and a 400 gr jfp @ 2200 fps for the 45-70. I guess what this means is that the 444 and 45-70 are equally effective on large bears out to 200 yds - probably close to the limits at which you should be shooting with these calibers. The 444 load is chrono'd out of my 444, the 45-70 is a published velocity.

I was just about to call on a 444 Handi-Rifle for primitive weapons season. The 265gr Hornady bullets look like winners for deer/hog hunting. With your load, a guy can zero at 150yds and hold dead-on at anything inside of 200yds or so. Doesn't sound too "primitive" to me....

I revise my earlier comment based on reading more regarding the 444. It does indeed seem like it can do most everything that a 45-70 can. Kind of casts a new light on the Marlin and Winchester "Timber Rifle" 444s that I have in the safe now!

Ken - get those 444s out of that safe and hunt with them! I was doing a lot of ballsitics research on the 45-70 because I thought I wanted one. The ballistics on the 45-70 are very impressive and definitely surpass the 444 in terms of energy - but apparently hold no practical advantage inside lever gun ranges. I certainly don't feel sorry for myself, totin' my 444 through the woods. I may still add the 45-70 to my collection anyway, because I've never, ever bought a gun that I didn't really, really need and just want to see how that feels. Seriously...

5yrs ago I bought a Marlin in 444, put a 1.5x4 leupold on it, and haven't looked back. Everything from deer to big hogs has died on the spot with one shot. Shooting 325gr Beartooth Bullets, which I have never recovered a single slug-complete pass through and all of them have been shoulder shots. Read and explore the articles on Beartooth's website. Complete confidence in using it on big bears.

Glad I posted this, thanks for the help on the 444.

The 444 is a great round that was my introduction to bigbore levers. For 99% of what's out there it is more than enough gun. However if stopping big bears or buffalo is on the list I feel better with the larger energy,bullet weight and metplat that the 45/70 offers. Others may disagree but I feel there is enough of a difference to consider the 45/70 a better choice on grizz and cape buff.

I've owned and used both, and still have the .45-70, and will agree with those that have stated that the .444 is quite a penetrater with the heavier bullets.

Conversely, the .45-70 has a relatively flat trajectory with 300 grain bullets at 2200 or so feet per second.

Having owned both, I personally wouldn't sell one just to buy the other. Why I sold my .444 is still a mystery to my, just like my .348.

I'll be back. I have to go kick myself.

Vic, I almost sold my 45/70 Marlin 1895 rifle but for some reason I decided not to do so.......Glad I did not! I use the .444 Marlin about 3 to 1 actually and mostly shoot those 405 grain Remington (bought em cheap) bullets for the most part.

The .444 Marlin with hardcast bullets (especially Beartooth Piledrivers) has the ability to kill any friggin bear on the planet within 100 yards and I would bet my Superduty Ford on that statement.

Bettin' the truck is silly. You are really bettin' your rear end, if the cartridge/bullet don't work.

Shootist would you like to make a trip down from Canada and bring your money too? I know another Canuck in Sask. Canada who thinks the 45/70 is a big joke for use on bears, big bear mind you, to the tune of over 700 pounds.

Hey I been known to gamble a time or two, life is a gamble in it's self by the way, in case you didn't realize that fact. However, nothing I do is "silly" understand!!!

I've seen what Piledriver Jr.s will do in my 45-70. I run 'em about 1650 fps, and they dig a deep, deep hole, breaking anything that gets in the way.

Beartooth makes a top-drawer bullet.

Vic in VA.......Well I think that someone who might have doubts about Piledriver" bullets by Beartooth Bullets should indeed do a little research on their web sight.

Then they will understand why I would be willing to bet my Superduty on what they can do and will do on a big bear, moose, Bull Elk, Buffalo or even Cape Buffalo. The proof is given and recorded.

Be sure to check that the twist is fast enough to stabilize such a long bullet. I heard that the twist rate on some Marlins may not sabilize 300gr 444 bullets. Mine seems to do just fine with them. With hard cast I would not worry so much about extra heavy bullet weight.

I shoot my .444 out of a 10" Contender. What a thrill.

I have no doubt that a 45-70 will kill most anything if the bullet disrupts some vitals. Just sayin' that you really aren't betting the truck, you're betting your backside. See the grinny face after my post???? It looked like this --

Now let me tell you Boys! Those thar Bar-Tooth Boolits are HeLL on Wheels to any critter that might want wantin to be snacking on your backside gents. They will stop a run a way Freight Train no jokin.....

Too bad we cannot get the Beartooth bullets up here in Canada. Would love to try some in my 444.

Is your winchester their "Black Shadow" model. The 444marlin was my first bigbore levergun and thus my handle here on the fire. However after owning it, a 1895G in 45/70 and a 444 Winchester Black Shadow I favor the 45/70. The 444 will more than get the job done though.

On the subject of the 'black shadow'- that one had a black synthetic stock and was the kickingest thing I've ever shot! I had to sell it b/c the recoil was just too sharp. The stock design just didn't fit me I guess as I can shoot a guide gun, a 444 Marlin and other large bore hard recoiling rifles with no problem.

The 444 Marlin to me is best served with either the 265gr Hornady or the 270gr speer gold dot if you want to shoot jacketed ammo. Big Bore Marlins really shine with heavy hard cast lead. I can whole heartidly reccomend beartooth bullets for that!

I 'll never run across anything that a 444 Marlin wouldn't take care of ..being i live in the Mtn.s of TN..But I would not have a second thought of useing it for Brown Bear protection if i ever had the chance ever arrises...The 444 Marlin, 454 Cassual ,45/70 , 450 Marlin are all levergun cartridges that up to the task ...with the right bullet that is ..any and all of the mentioned would have to have a heavy tuff bullet....
the 405 gr. .430 bullet would work extremly well in a 444 levergun...but theres no big brown maneaters running around in TN

And thats whats makes the 444 so versitile..the use of 240gr.-300gr. .430 bullets for White tail and hawgs ,and Black Bear..and if a fellow had the chance to go Brown Bear huntin ..the your 444 deer gun with the right bullet becomes a Brown Bear gun....