I just got a winchester 1895 405 Win Teddy Roosevelt high grade.I have shot it about 150 times with 210 gr hornady xtp and 210gr Nosler 41 mag bullets.They are going around 2300fps.It blows gallon jugs to pices.I put a limbsaver pad and canes chapes on it.Its is too fun to shoot.I need to get more brass and bullets.I have been using aa1680 powder and I am going to try reloader 15 powder.I hope to get some 300 gr hornady bullets and 300 gr barnes and woodleigh for hunting .I hope to get a moose with it and a buffalo if I ever get a permit.

dgr, Mine likes RL15 and the Barnes 300gr the best, H4895 I use with the Hornady and Woodleighs. I've stopped at 2200fps with the Barnes in my rifle, no need to go higher for me. I know there are others here that are M95 405 shooters, best of luck with it, stevek

I've got one of the new model 95s and love it.
I bought mine to use as a cast bullet gun exclusively, can't see wasting money on condum bullets.
I got Mountain molds to make a wonderful 350 grain gas checked mold, out of brass that has proved very accurate. My research turned up a case full of IMR 3031 as the powder to go to. Prior to that I had used IMR 4064 and IMR 4895. Again case full.
I've sent these bullets to hunters in Africa and Denmark, Finland, Norway where they were used with good results.
Anything you can do with a jacketed bullet you can the same with a hard cast bullet.

Jim

Mine is in a Ruger #1H. I have tried several powders and a couple different bullets, and they all shot good, except Varget. H4895 works good as does Benchmark, maybe Benchmark just a tad better. Mine is giving me 2450 ft/sec with a 300 grainer, but it is a strong action -- might could go a little faster, but WHY? I have also used 210 grain Sierra JHP's and AA5744 powder -- never chronied them, but I am guessing around 1500 ft/sec. Good for takin the heads off rabbits and grouse, and letting my 120 pound women folk try Dad's Rhino rifle.

Your bullets with the gas checks are still "condum" bullets -- just that the condoms are a little shorter, that's all.

I got my Winchester 1895 when they first came back in 2001 or so
I sent mine to Fred Zeglin at Z-HAT.com who installed
NECG Express sights old style recoil pad and Robar NP3 super slick finish.It is the Last gun I would part with now or ever.
I have had pics of it posted on here before.I can get the kid next door to e-mail some photos of my 405 WCF TO SOMEBODY WHO CAN POST THEM HERE.
AMRA

My short condumed bullets are still cheaper.
Why pay, what do the jacketed bullets cost, 25 cents or more when you can get the same out come for a few cents.

Jim

Arkypete - It sounds like you have worked up a good gas check cast bullet load for your 1895 .405, but my experience led me to try the Northfork premium bullets. After a factory Hornady 300 grain jacketed flat point failed it shoot through both shoulder blades of a Nilgai at less than 50 yards, I looked for a stronger bullet for larger tougher game. I have loaded the 300 grain Northfork CPS and FPS to 2250 fps with N133 and they shoot to the same point of aim as the factory Hornady. I was extremely satisfied with the CPS performance on a water buffalo at less than 50 yards and Northfork posted the story on their web site:
http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/blog/?p=204

I have been tinkering with 400 grain Hornady and Woodleigh bullets also, but that is another story.

There's few guys over at Accurate Reloading that have extensive experience reloading for the 405. Some of their loads are enough to scare me, I cring at the powder charges behind 400 grain bullets and the steel butt plate.
With a wheel weight and tin alloy water dropped bullet at casting , I get a bullet harder then an ex wife's heart.. This summer I'll make some babbit metal bullets, my red alloy, has copper in the mix. This alloy is about as close as you'll get to armour piercing and not have it machined out of bar stock.
I'm sure this bullet would penetrait, without expansion, through most any critter smaller then a rhino. Hitting a large bone may shatter the bullet, that would have to be determined by some one with more experience then I.
Good hunt and perfect results.

Jim

Search the archives here I left a couple of threads several years ago on loading the 405.
Basically for hunting with jacketed bullets you'll want to go with either the Northfork or the Barnes. Unless Hornady has toughened up the jackets they're to frangible to be of much use for hunting.
Cast bullets of the proper size are much more numerous than they were back in 02. The ones I have come to favor the most are the Lyman 412263, RCBS .416 and Buffalo Arms now has a 300 gr .413 that uses a gas check and the gascheck step is properly sized to use the Hornady .416 checks.
Powders with jacketed bullets, most anything between 4895 and 4064 work well. My favorite being the now extinct RL12, with second place going to Rl15.
Cast bullets need look no further than 5744.

I'm shooting a new 1895 and my favorite load is 4320 behind a 300gr Hornady. I know there are "better" bullets available, but i have killed a bear and three deer with this and never recovered a slug, even after full length penetration. I will call it "good enough".

3031 did not work well for me and I have some RL15 that I need to try. I have used 250gr Hawks but was not impressed. I have yet to try cast bullets....just need some extra time!

405wcf

Oops...the 250gr hawks were in the 348!

Carp: that load with the Barnes and RL-15 sounds about perfect for me. Care to share specifics? jorge

arkypete, could you expand on that "red alloy" babbit metal mix that you're using? Sounds interesting! Bill.

Bill
I don't know the exact alloy. It's very hard. When I found it at the scrap yard, I rapped it with my pocket knife and it rang like a bell.
I used it orginally in my 375 Whelen. It worked like a charm. There's very little reloading data available for the 375 so I used 35 Whelen data as a starting load.
For the 45-70 and 405 I used a more diluted mix of two ingots in a 20 pound pot of wheel weights.
The bullet is sized to .413, lubed with LBT, annealed 416 gas check.

Jim

Thought I'd add:

The closest alloy I could find would be Rotometals Copper Hard.

Your bullets will be lighter when mixed with babbot than with just lead alloy. I mixed up some with some babbot and wheelweights, and what usually weighed 300 grains came out about 10 grains lighter. Gotta be careful too, that you don't make the bullets too brittle.

i too prefer the defunct RL-12 in the 405. too bad it's gone and i'm down to my last pound. RL-15 is still very good and has good load density. IMR3031 and either 4895 also works well in my rifle. i personally think a 350gr. bullet is the ideal weight for a lever gun. i cast and 350gr. LBT LFN gc @.414" and run them 2150 fps.

Well test fired the 405 today with factory Hornady 300gr FPs first. About a 2" group@ 50 yards and 2270 on the chrono. I then tried 300gr TSXs and Woodleighs coming in with sligtly bigger groups (two almost touching) behind 53.5gr of RL-15 and those came in at 2160-75. Adding half a grain and if I can break 2200 with reasonable accuracy I'll call it a day. I also ordered a Lee Factory Crimp die as that seems to help with accuracy. Will report back tomorrow after the range session. jorge

did the buttplate give you any grief???

Just got back, no grief, it could use a nice red English style pad, but recoil is much less than the Sharps. Took it as well today BTW and I still have issues with those paper rings. On the 405, slowly working my way up to factory specs. The new loads by Hornady are fast, around 2285 or so. Today the TSXs averaged 2210 for a three shot group and the Woodleighs 2190. The Woodleighs shot much better though. Tomorrow I'll add another half grain and that should get me to near what I want which is ~2250.

jorgeI,

I am loading both H4895 and Benchmark for my #1 405, and the factory 300 FP's come out at 2275 - so it looks like our rifles are pretty close with that one. I am getting 2450 out of the 300 FP's with a stout charge of Benchmark. Getting just under 2400 with the same bullets and H4895. I found the X bullet was a tad more accurate than the Hornady, and they are squeeking down range at a real good clip, but my rifle is a #1, and so it is a fairly stout action. Wouldn't recommend my loads for a levergun.

Shootist: yeah I'm limiting myself to 2250 or less. I figure that MV was plenty for Teddy to kill a Hippo among other things and that was with crappy bulets. I figure the TSXs Woodleighs and North Forks will give me better performace. ell you what though, that 1986 is one handy, fast pointing rifle. jorge

No doubt about it. And a real neat cartridge as well. I love mine. Can't wait to tip a moose with it.

Irepeated this over on the Africa Forum as well:
Well guys been working the 405 hard coming up with a suitable load. Been using RL-15 powder as that was the best powder recommended. Used 300gr Woodleighs and TSXs. Finally settled on the TSXs and right at 2250 fps duplicating original factory specs. THe factory Hornady and Winchesters shoot a bit faster (2280s) and the Woodleighs a bit more accurate, but given the rounds lousy SD I settled on the TSXs to maximize penetration. THe TSXs are holding consisten 2 3/4" three shot groups@ 100. Funny thing about the Woodleighs, velocity seemed to top out in the 2180s no matter how much powder from about 53.5 to 55.5gr of RL-15. The TSXs in turn responded nicely with 30 fps increments per half grain of powder. I've also ordered a Lee Custom Factory Crimp Die as this has shown to tighten groups in all the other calibers I've used. jorge

Good info, jorge. Thanks.

I'd say that's excellent considering you're using the rifle's factory iron sights; especially that crappy buckhorn rear sight. I'd say you're good to go.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Bob: It is a very sweet, FAST handling rifle, definitively "habit forming" to play and hunt with. I'm definitively considering taking it along when I do another buff hunt. I'd like to try Tanzania where you can whack two buffalo on one hunt

Of course, you could put a Williams FP-71 Receiver Peep Sight on it and a larger/better white bead up front and I bet your group size would shrink.

From the looks of the model of your rifle, it's already drilled and tapped for the peep sight:



My particular model of 1895 isn't already drilled and tapped from the factory. I'm still mulling over the idea of having the Williams sight mounted. Due to my aging eyes I can't see the standard rear sight worth a darn. It's just a big blur even when wearing my eye glasses.

Just my musings.....
-Bob F.

you mean where those two screws are near the top? Good idea!

Yep!



From reading other topics on here, it's my understanding that the FP-71 will mate to those holes perfectly. I have not personally tried or done it. Maybe some of our more experienced posters will chime in about it.

You might have to remove the rear factory sight in order to get a clear view of the front sight through the peep. Again, maybe some of the more experienced folks here can tell us.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

To my eyes, it kind of spoils the looks and the lines of the rifle but you could always remove it once you were done with the serious hunting for a season.


Williams FP-71 on Winchester 95 in 30-06

Not my photo; just one I found on the web.

-Bob F.

I'ld cancel the order for the lfcd , won't do much but screw up good loads.
If I were going to use my rifle for just a hunting and informal target gun I'ld go back to the set up I had on it while waiting for the Lyman 38 type sight.
I put a One Ragged Hole sight mounted on a spare winchester 94 rear sight.


Worked like a champ kept the clean lines, didn't get in the way and it shot like a house a fire.
4 shots 100 yds with the northfork 300 ss.

Ranch: Not sure I understand your post, what's an ifcd and did you finally wind up with a Lyman 38? Also can you sahre the load you used for those 300gr NFs ss( solids?) thanks, jorge

The lee factory crimp die will likely cause more problems than it will cure. Given the accuracy you say you're getting with the factory buckhorns, that die won't do you any good.
That load was 57 grs of Rl12 in Hornady cases, lit up by cci large rifle primers, oal was right at 3.2, a very tight fit in the magazine.

Now that's an interesting idea!! Did you buy it or make it?

Cheers!
-Bob F.

I think I just found it on Brownells.



http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=42777/pid=1539/sku/One_Hole_Sight_Win__Lever_Rifle
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1539/Product/ONE_HOLE_SIGHT
"Winchester � Includes one aperture: 7/64" (2.8mm) diameter. Fits rifle/carbine versions of models 92, 94/94AE, 9422. Also fits Model 9410 shotgun."

Is that it?

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Do you slip that sight over the current one? Regarding the Lee Die, it's worked in every other rifle I've used and the 300gr 411 was specifically designed for the 95 or so Barnes says. My OAL is exactly the same as yours and it goes into the mag no problem. Those groups are a lot better than mine!

All the post 64 94 sights have a screw on either side of the rear "blade" that you can loosen to gain or decrease elevation adjustment. Installing the ORH sight you simply slide the original sight up and off and replace it with the ORH.
The Northfork 300 ss was designed with the 95 in mind as well. Don't know how the new owners are treating the bullets but when Mike ran the outfit they were nearly match quality.
Crimping straightwalled cases usually deteriorate accuracy...

Ranch: I've used NFs before and loved them as well. Mike and I have had many discussions Anyhow I went to the NF site and it says you have to seat the bullet BEYOND the last groove in order for it to fit the 95. Was that your experience as well? On the sight, I take it it won't fit over the existing buckhorn on the 95?

Jorge my NF loads are pretty deep in the case. All the grooves are covered and the case mouth is almost to the ogive.
No the buckhorn on the 95's are a different deal. Should be able to get a 94 replacement sight from Brownells.

Thanks. I guess I need to order the 94 sight and it will fit in the 95's notch on the barrel. Appreciate all the help. jorge

Is this the rear sight I need?:

A post for Jorge of his .405 this am. He can provide the details.

Thanks, Pugs. Well I think I'm there and this is with the factory installed sights. As you can see the elevation correction worked out nicely. 55.5gr of RL-15, Fed 210M primer and 300gr TSXs. MV right at 2250 with a TINY deviation of around 5 fps which is outstanding. OAL is exactly 3.20 leaving just a tiny space as far as mag lenght but I can fully load the mag. This is one sweet shooting and handling rifle that I might just have to take with me next time. I have a peep sight coming and I'll see how that works out because as you know, it's easy to screw up the sight picture with buckhorn sights.

I also have some North Forks on order but they'll have some big shoes to fill to outshoot the TSXs and I know they won't penetrate as well. What I hope is they'll shoot to the same POI then it'll be a nice option to have. Cheers, jorge

Yes that is the sight you need and the dovetail should fit, if not it will be a simple thing to fix it.
Penetration we don't need no stinking penetration.....

You do on Syncerus Caffer....

Dang!, Jorge. You're getting pretty good with that ol' fashioned shootin' iron!

It sure looks like you've found a good load.

Sometimes it's just fun to do things the old fashioned way!

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Yep! It just gets more fun every day with this rifle. THANKS for giving me the idea to buy it

Hmmmm... Some goodies to start pondering......

A classic, red recoil pad. A barrel band sling stud and an inletted stud in the buttstock to go with it. A peep sight with a nice white bead up front. (With a properly fitted and rust blued filler to go in the dovetail slot on the barrel where the rear sight mount was located.) A genuine hand-rubbed oil finish on the stock to really bring out the pattern and grain in the wood. The checkering recut by hand to clean up and sharpen the points and the pattern.

These are just some of the things that I'm contemplating having done to my rifle. It must all be part of the Rifle Loony "disease"!!

Oh wait!!!... I shouldn't have mentioned any of this because your wife is going to think that I'm even a worse influence than she already thinks I am!!

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Williams sight just got here. IT's buttflugly...But I love all the ideas above though!

http://24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1734555/My_405_WCF_Pics#Post1734555
Here is my 405 WCF
AMRA

Very cool indeed. I like the rear sight on yours, what is it? I just received a Williams peep but it looks like crap on my rifle. I might consider a shallow "V" express sight instead of the buckhorn it has now. jorge

Jorge,
I have had no problem getting 2250 fps with North Fork bullets using VV N133 in my Miroku 1895 .405. In fact, the first trial batch walked me right up to that, so I stopped. They shoot to same point of impact as the Hornady 300 grain JFP factory loads; sweet.
At the same time, I achieved almost the same velocity and accuracy with Ramshot TAC, and am trying both powders again with 400 grain Hornadys and Woodleighs. All loads were compressed with a 24" drop tube.

http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/
Universal Screw-On Ramp Front sight with 3/32 Ivory Bead
Masterpiece Fully Adjustable Rear Sight
Old style recoil pad
Robar Ind. NP3 finish
Sights regulated to 1 inch high at 100 yds.
All worked done by Fred Zeglin at
http://www.z-hat.com/
AMRA

Jorge,

Just passing this thought along:

After discussing the idea with Todd (my gunsmith), I'm considering having him simply hand file the factory buckhorn rear sight blade down to an express sight contour. File straight across the top of the blade until it's level with the sight notch (or thereabout). Might also need to open up the sight notch in order to match the size of a replacement white bead up front. Might make the rear sight notch a "V" like an express sight. Still kicking around ideas.

This approach has appeal to me as it keeps the basic rear sight assembly, making it look more period correct and authentic for the rifle, while getting rid of the buckhorn sight's "horns" and giving a better sight picture.

I got this idea after looking at one of the original photos of Osa Johnson that I purchased. I did a high-resolution scan (1200 dpi) of the photo and them zoomed in on the rear sight of her rifle.








Cheers!
-Bob F.

What was your load? I take it was 3.20 or thereabouts?

Bob: I'm definitively thinking that way but I also want to do all the other stuff you suggested. That other post showing sights also looked like they might work. Rifle is shooting FINE like it is, but I really need a better "focus" like a gold line in the center of the sight for faster aquisition.

I've just been poking around on the Marble Arms web site. I don't know any details about these sights yet (such as will they fit the barrel slot on a new Win 1895 properly, what height would be needed, etc.) but they look interesting.


Sporting Rear Sights
Sporting Rear Sight is available in over 20 various heights from .275 inches to .630 inches.
http://www.marblearms.com/rearSights.html





#95 Folding Sporting Rear
http://www.marblearms.com/rearSights.html






Bullseye Sight
http://www.marblearms.com/bullseyeSights.html


Cheers!
-Bob F.

THe top one looks promising. Anyhow I'm going to hang onto the Williams jsut in case...

Yeah, the Williams sight is probably one of the best in terms of usability. (I've never used one so far.) It's just a shame that it detracts from the looks of the rifle, at least to my eye.

Anyway, I'm still mulling over ideas for my rifle. If I'm ever going to do any serious shooting or hunting with it, then I've got to come up with a better rear sight solution than the factory buckhorn rear sight. My tired old eyes just can't see that rear sight worth a darn; it's just a blur even when I'm wearing my prescription glasses.

I doubt if I could see any of those Marble rear sights any better since they would be in the same location on the barrel as the factory rear sight. I'll probably just end up going with the Williams peep sight as it puts the peep mush closer to the eye.

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Guys I have a new set of Lyman dies and Hornady50 brass an bullets for a 405. $100.00 for all sent to you thanks

BFaucett,
i have done exactly what you described about milling the wings off the semi buckhorn rear sight, then changed the notch to a "U" shape to match the bead. Doug Turnbull does the same thing. it's almost like handgun sights. it makes a big difference for me in group size and hitting ability.

Hey, good to know! Thanks for passing that info along. I think I'll try that first and see how well I can see the rear sight. I might as well try that before I go to the trouble and expense of mounting the Williams peep sight. (My rifle is not drilled and tapped from the factory for the peep sight.)

Thanks again.
-Bob F.

jorgeI what is the part number I can't seem to find it at
Numrich- that is the Win.94 sight you are showing. Thanks for your time. Cheers NC

I'm on travel but I'll get it to you this weekend

Here you go:Product No. 1048330
$21.60

BTW, just got back from the range and testing the 300gr North Forks. They were very accurate,on par with the TSXs. What was interesting though is they shot a good 60 fps slower than the TSXs given the same load (55.5gr RL-15)because normally NFs require less powder to generate the same velocities. They even put not in theor boxes telling you to start with less powder because they generate higher pressures. jorge

Jorge,
Sorry, but I have been in town and my reloading records are at the farm. I will make a note to answer your load question this weekend.

No probelm. Thanks!

See??? This is why I like blackpowder!! Just fill up the case, jam in yer wad,stuff in yer slug and go kill things

Just got back from the range, I'm trying to get the 300gr North Forks to shoot to original specs and I finally succeeded. 2252,2252, 2241 fps which is wonderfully stable. Accuracy was acceptable, but the TSXs are definitively more accurate and I can achieve the same velocities with exactly one grain less. Maybe some of you NF shooters can share some loads with other powders, but right now the TSXs seem tough to beat! jorge

My very best accuracy and velocity came with 57 grs of Rl12 cci lr primers, under the NF. Velocity is running 2350 with very little deviation. 58 grs of rl 15 with any of the 300 gr bullets is where my rifle found it's groove.
Might give some 4320 a shot, so to speak...

thanks. 2350 is too hot (in my view anyway) for an 1895 Winchester even though it's a new one. Running 55.5 now and groups are at 1"@ 50 yards, a bit bigger than with the TSXs. NFs are great bullets but at 90 bucks a box (yikes!) I might stick with the TSXs. They also will probably penetrate more.

Take a look at pressure data from Lyman and Hogdons. 45K is about as high as it gets.....

Jorge,

All things considered, I'd say you're pretty well set with your RL-15 load pushing the 300 gr Barnes TSX bullets at 2250 fps. You're getting good accuracy with a bullet that will maximize the potential of the .405 cartridge.

I've never used Barnes bullets but I know you're a fan of them. Just based on what I've read and what others have to say about the TSX bullets, I think they should work just fine on about anything you'd hunt with a .405 Winchester.

I think you found a great load early on with your handloading for the .405. Why fight success?

Cheers!
-Bob F.

You're right Bob, but here I sit with 90 bucks worth of NFs so I figure I need to kill something with them as well. Incidentally I installed that rear sight peep on my 9422 Winchester and it works GREAT. Now all I have to do is determine if a 94 sight base will fit the notch of the 1895's and I'm set, or I can always have it cut to fit. jorge

I am pretty sure your sight will work. I've installed peeps on my 94 and GG, and used the same 3/8" dovetail filler for both.

Hello Jorge,
Well, the bad news is that my reloading range book has gone missing, likely with the move to the farm last November. The good news is that in my .405 WCF notebook, I found the research notes on the North Fork 300 grain loads of interest.

One of the dozens of places where I researched possible .405 loads was the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading 7th Edition, which had loads using VVN133, H 4895, aand AA 2015. All their listed .405 loads used Hornady 300g FP or SP bullets. I first tried the 4895 loads with mediocre results and then tried the VV N 133 loads - following the NF formula of how to use less powder than for other bullets (.93 x other bullet load grains = NF load), I computed the average velocity increase per grain to calculate loads from 2000 fps to 2400 fps.

The plan was to start at the low end and work up until reaching 2400 or until the rate of velocity increase per grain approached zero. At 2250 fps the velocity gain began to drop slightly. Since this is the 1895 design velocity for 300g bullets and these loads shot to the same 100 yard point of aim as the factory 300 g Hornady ammo, I stopped right there at 51.6 grains of VV N133. I did fire the loads of 53.4, but the velocity gain continued to diminish and the velocity standard deviation increased beyond acceptable. I just discovered that I still have the 55.8 grain loads and will not fire them, but will pull the bullets and recycle the components.

I also tried the Ramshot TAC with the NF bullets and at 2100 fps had an extremely accurate load with an almost zero STD for 5 shots. However, after this, the velocity gain and STD degraded before reaching my velocity goal, so the remaining rounds were recycled.

BTW, if this does not help you with all those old, unused NF bullets, you can ship them to me and I promise to load them and to think kindly of you every time I take down a critter with them.

PS I agree with your tag line.
PSS Pics of NF CPS, a 1500 pound water buffalo, smiling hunters.
http://www.northforkbullets.com/magento/blog/?p=204
Makes a beauty of a cartridge and shoots through stuff.

Thank you very much! I'll have to try the VV powder and see where that takes me. I'm using F210 primers what did you use. And I tell you what, if I can't get them to shoot or decide to stick with the TSXs, I'll PM you and send you the rest of the NFs I have left. Thanks again. jorge

Jorge,
Without my log book, we must rely on my memory. I know I used new Hornady brass and think it was CCI large rifle primers. Best of luck with the N133 and your NF bullets.

BTW, since this experience, I have read and been advised that for compressed loads of ball powder in long cases like my .405 and .45-90, magnum LR primers are recommended to help assure satisfactory (the best) ignition. Magnum LR primers may have helped with the TAC loads as they became more compressed, and as I am continuing to experiment with ball powders and N133 in heavy .405 (400 gr ) and .45-90 ( 450 g solids) loads, I will definitely try the mag primers this fall and winter (too damn hot here in Texas now to be testing hot loads outdoors). I have to find that log book though -

Thanks! is N-133 ball or extruded?

N 133 is extruded, not ball, but the granules seem small and meter well, with rarely a grain being cut.
I will check my V V reloading manuals for an overview of the 100 series powders and see if there anything there I can scan and send you. Their web site is rather shallow and has likely been lawyered to death, but you could check it.


http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=851

Thanks again. Presently loading some TSXs at the moment. Incidentally, found out from Hornady all of their 405 brass production which I'm sure is not much is going towards loaded ammo. I did find one place that had them (Natchez) and ordered a few hundred. If I were you I'd stock up. Being that is is a relatively mild pressure, the brass should last quite a while. Hell I have 416 Rigby brass that have close to 15 loadings. jorge

Don't know about down your way, but up here 50 new brass was getting $55.00 CDN. Pricey for sure, but it sizes nice, and seems to hold up nicely.

I think I paid about a buck apiece down here.

Sounds about right. Love the cartridge, BTW. I'm glad you guys are having some fun with it. Mine is a #1, and I am impressed with the accuracy. It's also a real hammer. Mine shoots the X bullets best.

So-o-o, do we have confirmation yet that the post- 1964 Model 94 rear sight available from Numrich Arms fits the dovetail correctly in the Model 95 Winchester???

If so, that combination (with the large O ring screwed to the M 94 sight) is the way I intend to make my older eyes work with my 405. Input please.

Now that the weather is better I want to start shooting my 405 win 1895 again.I saw an interesting scout scope mount for model 94 and marlin 336 rifles.It replaces the rear site and is a rail mount for scout scopes.I wish this was made for Win 405 1895s.I have trouble with peep sites and iron sites past 50 yards .I think my eyes are getting like Teddy Roosevelts.I am looking for more bullets to shoot.I want to try the 400 gr bullets but dont want to blow my gun up.I think its the .410 400 gr Hornady bullet.I didnt know if Woodleigh bullets made one or not.The Woodleigh bullets are way better for hunting than hornady bullets.Has any one used bertran brass.I have some hornady only 50 pcs but I am buying some bertram brass.My hornady brass shows the bullet in the brass a slight ring.I have not had this with any other caliber I loaded.They shot fine but it looked weird.With the kick ease pad on my 405 its fun to shoot.I just run out of loads to shoot.I wish winchester would sell the nickel placed brass .It looks cool and is better than the hornady brass.Hornady needs to get off their behinds and make miore 405 brass.It is only made once a year is a small quanity.I finally found some brass after a long search.I gotta find some bullets now.I shot up most of my Nosler 41 mag 210 gr bullets and my 41 mag 210 gr hornady xtp bullets.They are a blast to shoot.I will try some 300 gr hornady bullets.I noticed Hornady is only loading one kind if 300 gr bullet now.With a good recoil pad this rifle is a big pussycat to shoot.I shot my friends 405 one day then my 416 rem mag then his 470 capstick.I now know my limit the 470 capstick is too much without a muzzlebreak.I am really glad I bought my Teddy Roosevelt 1895 405.I hope I get to hunt with it this coming year.This is a very interesting old rifle to play with that has alot of history behind it.You should read African Game Trails by Teddy Roosevelt to hear about his hunts with the 1895 405 Winchester its awesome!!!

Forget all that 400gr .411 stuff. Just get the 300gr TSX RL-15 powder, Hornady brass and go for it. Those TSXs will outshine the Woodleighs and everything else and give you 2200 fps and great accuracy. Do a search here for my loads and targets and see what you can accomplish!

I can see no reason to push any weight bullet in the .405 Win to 2200fps, it simply is not needed. The .405 is much less of a round than the old .45-70 which isn't much to begin with anyway. The .405 loaded at moderate speeds will suffice as a small bear and marginal elk size animal round but it will never be more than that. Even "Old Bully" himself admited to it not being much of a DG round.

For starters the 405's original load was a 300 gr bullet at 2200 fps, with todays powders it's completely easy to get those same 300 gr bullets to 2400 fps and stay well within the pressure limits of the 95 action.
Guaging from your response it's pretty obvious your actual handson experience with either the 405 or 45-70 is zero..

I must agree with Ranch13.
The only other plausible explanation is someone looking to stir up a fuss. There are better ways to spend one's time than arguing with kids or the ignorant.

The original 405 loading was a 300gr@ 2200 fps and that is more than sufficient to make it a whole lot more than a "marginal" elk round. As to TR's opinion of the round, I beg to differ and so does he. Ih his book "African Game Trails" he waxes eloquently about the round's efficacy on lion a definite member of the DG crowd. What he said was the bigger British Express round he used a 500/465 was better for elephant but suffice to say both he and Kermit used the 405 to take elephant and rhino. Also there is a real good book about a Brit hunter in India in the colomial service who used a 405 with great results on tigers. With today's premium like the TSX the 405 is a great round. I for one plan to use it on Cape Buffalo. jorge

Thin skinned lions an tigers are a long way from elephant and cape buffalo but if you are the type for stunt hunting by all means use it as both have been killed with much less such as bows and spears.

Maybe so, I was merely pointing out your erroneous statement concerning TR and his views on the 405, not to mention the fact you said "DG" and that of course includes lion and leopard.

Bloodline--You need to get some real world experience with a 45-70 before you go bonkers on your key board. If you want to see what a 45-70 is all about, I would suggest that you stand out at 400 yards or so and let me shoot at you with my Sharps 45-70 loaded with 500 grain cast bullets pushed by black powder. I won't even need a scope.

On second thought, that's not such a good idea. You wouldn't survive the experience, so I am withdrawing the offer.

Shargpsguy: Not meaning to Hijack the .405 thread but I'm not "thin skinned" fire away. How could I be while posting on a BB?
I own and have owned several 45-70 in single shots, lever and bolt actions my favorite being a Marlin 1895LTD SS followed closely by an 1874 Sharps. I have spent tons of cash trying to make the 45-70 into something it is not finally just buying a .458WM. I do also own a 'soli Quigley that I punched out to 45-120 ( more recoil than worth though very accurate).
My favorite load for the 45-70 is 52.0 gr IMR 3031/400gr hard cast (my own)/Fed. 215 primer it is accurate in every rifle I own. In the 45-120 I shoot BP with the same bullet an it is very accurate out to 1000 yds using a Lyman front globe with inserts.
With the above being written I still stand pat on my statement neither the 45-70 nor the .405 are really worth much for truely dangerous game. Certainly the bison has been slain with both as too the occasional brownie but as a rule neither was very adept at doing so back in the day.

bloodline

Thanks for straiting us all out on the 405 and 45-70, if there is anything else we may be unaware of, you will be the first one we'll ask. Thanks again for all the wisdom.

Mouse

Bloodline--You just showed yourself for the lying troll you are. A Pedersoli 45-3 1/4 won't hit due east with a 400 grain hardcast bullet and black powder. It's a matter of case capacity, fouling control, and barrel twist. 1000 yards my azz.

Sharpsguy would you care to step out in front of that rig at 1000 yds while I lie prone on the short stick?
Just because you haven't had good fortune with the likes does not mean others haven't. I,myself had little interest or use for the BP in it either as I thought I was pretty wise to the ways of reloading/shooting, then I had the good fortune (or misfortune) to meet a pair of serious BP burners whom adore long range match shooting with the 38-55, 45-70 as well as several other calibers. I soon learned to keep my mouth shut and listen around them and at their suggestion punched the 45-70 to 45-120. Not intending to tell anyone I can ring the gong at 1000 with every pull but I do it enough that I keep tossing my empties into a bucket of soapy water putting up with the mess until I get to sit at the long drop tube and start over.
* But to quote you, "on second thought I withdraw my offer as you may not survive the experience"

Bloodline--I just might take you up on it. Would you care to enlighten us and tell us how your rig is set up and give us some details of your load with the magic 400 grain bullet?

Names, dates and Places?

Sharpsguy has a PM.
*Listen I do not claim to be THE FINAL ANSWER to any type of reloading of smokeless an most of all BP. In the scheme of my reloading knowledge I'm fairly new to BP (around 9 yrs with reloading BP/brass) and I think of myself as a rookie around some others, but what is fact is fact and one of those facts is that my Quigley 45-120 is accurate with my cast bullet over black powder. Another is that with some regularity I can and do ring a 14"x14" piece of plate steel hanging from a limb at a lasered 986 yds. Do I hit it every shot? Hell no! no one does that I shoot with though I do hit it an average 3 out of 5 shots on a windless day.
I can see no need nor future in internet muscle flexing on this or any subject thus I shall sit back an enjoy the read.

**Here's another shocker " I pick the Steelers to win by 2 pts.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time imagining that 1000 yard feat with a 38/55. Maybe you can do it as well as with your other rifle and that's great. What make & kind of sight rig are you running on those rifles. I'm here to learn too. jorge

Sharpsguy has read the PM, and is not impressed.

Jorge: There is a following for the 1871 Buffalo Classic H&R that has both the 38-55 and the 45-70 available in a 32" barrel. I've owned one in the 45-70 it is a cheaply made rifle but I admit it is accurate. Like any firearm if you shoot it enough taking the time to learn where to hold at different ranges it will usually hit where you point it.
I use a Lyman rear peep along with a Lyman front globe sight. There are two different diameter holed peeps that can be screwed in depending the range/light/etc. and I've had 2 diameters more machined to fit. The front globe has an array of inserts for the same reason.
The group of us that get together to shoot strive to keep it as simple as possible, it realy isn't rocket science, a heavy dose of black powder under a heavy enough bullet to aide in bucking wind drift. I like my buddies are always tinkering with different mixes for our cast bullets always searching for just the perfect mix if there truely is a perfect mix. I also shoot jacketed bullets as do each of the others save one member of our group whom edges on what he calls "trueism" to the call. Basically we keep it fun.
If you are serious in learning more I suggest the SASS website and Bulleting Board forums there you will find many posters whom know a hell of a lot more than I do about the sport.

Thanks, I just have barrel sights on my Sharps 110 and I'd like to try your setup. What Lyman sight do you use? jorge

I have a Lyman #57 SML aperture receiver sight that took a bit of shimming and inletting to fit. If your receiver is round I believe the Lyman #57 will fit. I use the #17 AML with inserts the height as I recall is .445".
Another sight to look into are tang sights that flip up and down that you may like as well though I've not found them to be as precise for distance shooting but are quick to use for hunting. My 1874 Sharps has a tang sight mounted on it with an faux ivory insert front blade it is quick and deadly on deer.

Edited to add: In the past I have found the customer service people at Lyman very helpful in sight selection for any application. There are different size beads ie. 1/16 or 3/32, heights, widths etc. their toll free # was 1-800-225-9626 give them a call my knowledge of their product line is limited to my own selection.

Bloodline--I will say it again. You are a lying troll. You have proved it with your own words. Lyman doesn't even make a rear sight that has enough elevation to reach 1000 yards with a BPCR. The Lyman 57 is a RECEIVER sight and doesn't even come close to having enough elevation. How do you "inlet" and shim one to fit on the action of a Sharps 1874? The TANG on a Pedersoli Quigley is drilled and tapped for a tang sight. I have never in my life seen a receiver sight mounted on an 1874 Sharps. WTF? You will need 140 to 150 minutes of elevation to reach 1000 yards with your 17A front sight, and the Lyman 57 simply can't provide it. I know because I have a Pedersoli equipped with that front sight, and have a proper Soule tang sight mounted on the rifle. The Lyman 57 is a 350 yard sight AT BEST.

3 out of 5 hits at a 14 inch gong at 1000 yards? That is less than 1.5 MOA and will win or place in the top three at the NRA Creedmoor Nationals at Raton. I have coached and spotted a shooter to two national championships at Raton, one at mid range and the other at long range shooting a Sharps. I have a very good idea what it takes to hit a target at 1000 yards with one of these things, and a Lyman 57 receiver sight is not on the equipment list.

One other thing. I don't think you even own a Pedersoli Quigley. If you did you would know that you don't "file the trigger" on one. They come from the factory with one of the finest double set triggers made. Sorry, pal, but your stories just don't add up. You ARE a troll and a liar, and you are busted. Rather you busted yourself.

hook, line & sinker...

Well you guys are telling him !!!!! I just got an original 1895 deluxe rifle in 405 friday ,made in 1904 the first year of the 405. fancy wood, checkered, lyman reciever sight ,and jotsam pad. ill letters right from winchester .This pad is unmarked ,some came with Winchester embossed in them. I have a regular winchester 1895 in 405 made in 1928 also. for a rifle with over 3000ft.lbs. of muzzle energy these really shoot nice ,just a little push no harsh recoil. maybe next year i'll dump a black bear with the deluxe its nice but i will hunt it. Don

Lovely rifles, congratulations!

Loggah

Now that is a nice 405 Win. Hope you do get a black bear with it. What a great looking gun and great caliber. Gotta love em.
Thanks for the pics.

Mouse

we got a lot of bear around here they usually get 2or 3 a year across the road at my brothers camp, i may just have to dump one. Thanks for the compliments it is a nice rifle, wish i could find T.R.'s initials on it !!!! Don

Very nice rifles. Congratulations.

I'm not one for 'net chest puffing or arguement believe what you wish. I will add to my orginal statement about hitting the plate at 1000 yds that one our group of shooters can make it jump at that range with a Winchester mdl 43 218Bee! It is a simple matter of knowing where to hold...I'll admit it takes one hell of a lot of practice shots to find the aim point but it is done and you may believe that or not.

Bloodline you ought to just quit while you can.
In the first plae you laid out your lack of knowledge and experience when you stated you didn't know why anybody should want to load the 405 to factory ballistics.
Then you go on with a load of bullspit about using a bullet that most likely won't achieve the moa necessary to hit that plate at the distance you stated, let alone the bogus sight equipment you speak of.
Sharpsguy is a nationally recognized bpcr shooter, with a pretty fair amount of credibility to speak from . I've shot with him on several occasions and can tell you the man knows his business.
With the sights you claim to be using I'm not sure how you could see that plate hung in a tree at the distances you stated, and I can only imagine at how many hundreds of rounds it would take to have a good spotter be able to walk you into making 1 hit on that plate , with no berms or good background to call the misses from.
Sharpsguy laid out the very fact of the matter on your lie about the sights you claim to be using.
There's no chest pounding gone on here, its a matter of a lier being called out...

I have no reason to doubt he is everything you have written heck he may walk on water too for all I know good for him and you. Though I do take exception to your statement about being walked into the target without berms etc. . I ask how on earth would you know where I shoot, with whom and with what?
Let me ask you this: Is there a tad out there that hasn't had a fresh brick of 22LR and tried to "walk" his bullet onto a target at some outlandish range? I know I've done it in the past an admit to trying it every now an again still. No great shakes to doing it either.
I also have an 1874 Sharps/American Arms that sports a Marbells tang sight that I hunt with and on occasion "walk" it's bullet onto that very same plate, once you find that aiming point there isn't much to it. Just like a kid with a fresh box of 22LR. Do it every shot NEVER but enough to keep at it for fun. Sharpsguy may be the guru of the sport and this site, good for him I wish to take nothing away from him but to stick one's nose in the air and claim someone is a lying troll just 'cause they too shoot for fun with friends on a sunny afternoon not living for the sport is a shameless act of snobbery. Enough said from both sides I'm going out to shoot.

Bloodline he and I are calling you a lying troll because of the statementt you've made about being able to hit a target such as a 14x14 inch plate hung from a tree at a lazered 986 yds 3 out of 5 times..With a 405 gr hard cast bullet. Never mind the nonsense about how you could find the "aiming spot" to hit that target at that distance with the amount of hold over required from those short range hunting sights you've cobbled up on what ever rifle you dreamt up you own...

[quote=Bloodline Though I do take exception to your statement about being walked into the target without berms etc. . I ask how on earth would you know where I shoot, with whom and with what?
. [/quote]

Well that question was asked of you in this thread, you've yet to answer it....

Here's more proof to the bullspit in this post. The following picture is taken thru a spotting socpe at the targets at a well known bpcr shoot. The buffalo is 800 yds, stands about 6ft high and is 8ft long, the bear is nearly 10 ft square and is at 970 yds, and the 1000 yd rectangle is 6x8.
It takes a good load with 500 gr bullets to get there and stay on target. As of yet I've not seen anybody shooting 405 gr 45 caliber bullets be able to keep 3 out fo 5 hits on any one of those targets let alone a 14x14 inch group on those targets..

bloodline: Your first posting here-EVER- (?), aside from being plain wrong in your knowledge of the 405 and TR's opinion of it, came across as negative and condescending. Your follow on posts continued in that vein, especially with what was obviously incredulous regarding your use of a 300 yard sight on a 1000 yard target for starters, especially like you depicted it; "hanging from a tree" which suggests no back berm and thus impossible to spot the fall of shot. As a Former Marine and with a little experience at the 1000 yard range at Quantico (we used a 6' bull), your claims certainly qualify for the "Amazing Shots" TV show. You just picked the wrong guys to impress, both Sharpsguy and Ranch are professionals and frankly I don't think you are being forthcoming. jorge

Heres a view of a creedmoor range with the steel targets built to original creedmoor specs. the bull on the 1000 yd is 4 ft in diameter. NONE of the worlds best creedmoor shooters, to date equipped with sophisticated sights and carefulley developed loads and some of the finest rifles ever built have fired a perfect score keeping all 10 rounds in that center bull.
Your bullspit don' fly...


The close target is 300 yds and is 18 inches wide and 24 tall with a 6 inch bull, you still want to tell us you can see a 14x14 inch plate hung in a tree 986 yds away?

Jorge: For the most part you have presented yourself as a gentleman an asked about my setup to which I replied what I use. Your comment of "hook line and sinker" IMO wasn't called for but you are welcome to your opinion. My very first post was also JMO of the .405 Win. and it's loads. I will add to it the any bullet of that weight and size @2200fps is quite quite the load down range but still IMO not a true DG load and I'm welcome to my opine as well.

Ranch13 Yup! I not only claim to be able to do it I have done it on several occasions with witnesses. I do not live in the arid west of your photos but in the rolling farmland of Penna. where trees do grow on those low hills that we use for our backstops. Enjoy your shooting I know I will.

Edited to add: Ranch13 would you like me to take a picture thru my spotting scope or my longest lens for the Nikon of an elephant at 500 yds to show you a dot????????

what do you think I meant by hook line & sinker? For the record it was a response to Sharpsguy's factual retort after I (with no clue) asked you about your sight set up. As to the rest of your comments, you continue to modify to suit. What about your comment on it being a "marginal elk round"? and I don't know what your experience with DG is but certainly you were in error when you wrongly quoted TR on the 405's dangerous game applications. Surely you agree lion and tiger qualify as such? a 300gr TSX@2200 plus is far from a marginal elk round.

Don't tell these guys that the 405 is a marginal elk round



And sure don't tell this one how inaffective the 45 cal 500 gr patched bullet is at 200 yds.

No what I would really appreciate tho is you keep on enjoying what ever shooting it is you might do, Just don't come around lying about it is all....

Ranch13 nice elk nice rifle. Two Saturdays ago I helped my neighbor slaughter a 1200# Holstein steer for burger meat he killed it with a 22short from 6" but I wouldn't hunt elk with it. I've killed moose with a 243 so I don't doubt you could kill elk with your .405 doing it well. Dead is dead it is like asking about bullet failure after cutting it out of the carcass, just where did it fail.
Jorge: lions and tigers have thin skin and they're plenty dangerous for me! I've never killed either my experience with DG has been limited to a a few brown bears in NA and cape buffalo in Africa for the bears I used a 30-06, 338WM & 45-70 the latter a .458WM with a 450 gr TSX ( no I didn't shoot them @ 1000)

Thanks. Who did you hunt with and where for buffalo? Incidentally TR killed more than one rhino and several buffaloes with the 405 using solids loaded to them by Winchester. I have a Tanzania hunt planned for two buffalo and yes I plan to "stunt hunt" with my 405 and 300gr TSXs.

buff with duPlessis in the Caprivi Strip an Selous L1 with Hopkins good luck in Tanzania if your travel takes you thru Dar esSalom I think the motel I used back then was called Sea Cliff right on the Indian Ocean great digs good food, the prawns were huge.
I'd be interested in learning more of your hunting company an area of the country as I'd like to go back now that I retired and have more time for it. does Tanz. still offer 2 buff on a 10 day lisence?

Sea Cliffs hotel correct. I'll be hunting with PVT Safaris in the Selous 16 day license. Hopkins, black PH shoots a 460 Weatherby?

Hopkins was PH from Zim but hunting in Tanz on some type of sub letting or something like that and he is white as snow no black PH in camp he had an old beat up Sako (I think) 375H&H. That was back some years ago now things change rapidly in Africa. Thought I heard the Sea Cliff burned about 8 years after I was there maybe more time flies. But I recall those damm TSETSE fly bites like it was yesterday. Stay safe those buff don't take kindly to getting pushed around.

ok, thanks. Sea Cliffs did burn but it is back up and running and those flies is just something one has to put up with to hunt in the Selous.