VAnimrod suggested I put up a series of pics I took to illustrate patching bullets and later on loading same into cartridges.
Cut patch

The set up

Wetting the patch. The paper stretches a bit when you do this

Starting the wrap

Wrapping the slug. Gentle but tight roll

Smoothing the wrap and twisting the pigtail on the base

I use Rooster jacket lube to lube the patched slug
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/PatchingSlugs009.jpg[/img]
Put a little bit of the lube on a sponge brush and gently twist in direction of wrap. Let dry
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/PatchingSlugs010.jpg[/img]
The bullet as cast then patched. then a moosekiller
[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Moosekillerds.jpg[/img]

Folks that use PP slugs have their own ways but this should serve as a ground zero primer. They shoot well for me. Have FUN!!

heck it looks simple enough I'm thinking a caveman could do it!

remains to be seen if it's outside the ability of a freakin hairstylist though!

you gonna post more pics of the rest of the process?

looked good to me, twas it a chunk of marble you was rollin on?

looks like you start with a corner so you end with a funnel and then twist, lube and dry.

loved the pics of cast, patched and MOOSE killa

If this attempt goes well, I have another series of pics of loading a paper patched slug into a 45-110 case. I ain't the expert but it is simple enuff. Lotsa guys do better when they have an image they can correlate their actions with.

I'm still in my infancy with my Sharps (45-90 LRE) and doing GG's. I have had to mine some lead, but it could be because I did not run any lube down the barrel before firing my initial rounds. Still trying to get an initial firing on a 300 rd collection of Starline brass. I can't come near advertised loads with virgin cartridges. Those rifles are scary accurate even with iron sights.

Some stupid questions.... What are the angles on the template? Does that strip of paper add up to two layers around the slug, and what is you routine between rounds for extended shooting sessions?

I may have to give PP a try after I get my brass blown out. Thanks for the illustrations, 1Minute

Not stupid. All that is required is a decent parallelogram. Buff Arms sells caliber marked brass templates for patch cutting, which is what I use. The patch wraps twice. Keep in minf 1minute that I don't shoot comp. I hunt with the Sharps. I have learned from Sharpsguy the use of compression, bullet weight and lube to be able to fire at least 10 rounds between wipings. In actual fact, I fire my rounds in pairs. Two rounds out, dry patch. I think that for hunting that is just a practical approach. Ever since I started to use GOEX Express I have far softer foul from the powder burn alone and that is a big part.Do you TRICKLE your charge down a 24" drop tube to load?? Seriously. I experimented just to see and using a careful trickle, I loaded ten 2 7/8" cases with 120 grains of powder. Just pouring powder down the tube only allows me around 105 grains. A drop tube used carefully does compact the powder quite a bit.

Next steps

Priming case

Drop tubing powder

Check charge level. You want to see powder stack to same height in each case

I seat the card wad first


compress the charge

Cookie cut the lube disc

The "highly technical" bullet seating step

Three rounds of 45-110 with a 50 BMG case for reference. Now wuzn't that hard???

Neat work, ET.

I appreciate the high tech seating system

Are those pure lead bullets ?

Bullets are cast 30:1 Lead/tin.

EvilTwin: I will probably give PP a go eventually. Again, I'm still blowing out virgin brass and burning up my odd lots of powder in that process. A couple tins of hold over Elephant and some Dragon (Chinese) that a local dealer carried. There's 25 lbs of 2F Goex Express waiting in the wings though.

I was initially compressing after dropping in 0.060 wad, but some of the Shiloh boys were critical of that. They implied that one did not want to eliminate any of the wad's shock absorbing or sealing character. That given, I compress before the wad goes in now. I've not done cookies yet.

I will never do competition either, but enjoy the challenge of trying to wring the most out of anything. Neat rifles, but a faster clean up would leave more time for other endeavors. Thanks again for your posts, 1Minute

Great pics ET.

I have the stuff to paper patch, but haven't gotten around to trying it yet. There are different schools of thought on whether to apply dry or wet, and whether to lube. I know shooters who do it with success both ways.

In the spirit of show and tell, here is my drop tube setup. I did not orginate the concept, but adapted it. I admit up front that it may be unnecessary overkill, but I like it. So does a very particular shooting buddy who swears by it.

Essentially it incorporates a small electric motor with an offset shaft weight to produce vibration. And, no, I did not cannibalize a sex toy, although I imagine they work the same way, down to the little Chinese motor. The motor, battery pack, toggle switch, and take-down connectors came from Radio Shack. Since the pic was taken, I've moved the toggle switch closer to the top.

I've found that the size of the hole in the top funnel is critical. About 1/8" seems to be max, and I started with 3mm. It takes about 12-18 seconds for the charge to pass through. It makes for a very uniform powder column, probably more dense than hand pouring.

Paul

Geeze Louise--

Nice set-up Paul. I keep mine as is 'cuz I took the droptube from the Lyman 55 BP measure and put that in my field box. I amcurrently rigging up a way to compress the powder without having need for a press or die. The oldtimers loaded ALL of their ammunition in the field and were partial to PP bullets. Lube. Sharpsguy doesn't lube his patches and he rolls them dry. I like the wet wrap as I use a very high cotton bond paper that stretches nicel when wet without tearing giving a tight firm wrap. The patch lube is a good idea for field ammunition here (and in Newfoundland is was NECCESSARY) because it keeps further moisture from destroying the patch.

FWIW, I don't hunt much anymore, and not with a BPCR. I shoot competition exclusively. I'm not a great shot, and distance keeps me from attending as many matches as I'd like, so I try do whatever I can to assure that the rifle and load do their part, and to give me confidence. I mention this because I know that lots of BPCR shooters focus on hunting and don't shoot competition, which is fine.

I just want to put my comments and practices in context, not suggesting that they are "the best", or for everyone.

And I enjoy tinkering.

Paul

What type of paper do you use, is it dimensionally a given thickness? I have only seen rebated bullets PP before, and yours look straight walled. There is so much to learn and I have not even ordered a Sharps yet.
Randy

Evil,
Very nicely done on your presentation!
Almost makes me want to re-start paper patching. Use to shoot a lot back in the late 80's early 90's but drifted away from Long range BP shooting.

Any way you could assist those interested further if you would discuss the best papers available and where to find them. Just a suggestion.

LRF
PS didn't see the reply above mine. OPPS

I don't do BP anymore,but still roll a few..these are some gopher loads for a .458 with 5744

Rifle: That left most slug looks like grease groove unit. What's the deal? 1Minute

LRF I'ld highly recommend you go to Shilohs web site and in the books order up Orville Loomers book on paper patching. Very basic but well researched and prooven methods.

Evil Twin, if you cleaned those cases your accuracy may jump up a bit. Also have you tried shortening the patch and folding the base? Twisted tails don't do much for accuracy.

As a side note the 27/8 case was the original 45-120 , the 3.25 cased 120 came later and there's good arquements to be made that Sharps may not of ever chambered it.

Ranch, the bullets are cup based, tapered 540 grain slugs. The pigtail twists and tucks into the base. Accuracy?? I had a 508 yard target, a 16" gong to shoot at in Virginia. One ranging shot, battery adjust and put the next 2 into the gong using the BARREL SIGHTS! Shot off the buffalo sticks. Insides are cleaned with 50/50 white vinegar and water. Outsides I generally don't bother with too much. After every 5th firing, I'll take a piece of very fine steel wool and clean them up. I get a very clean separation of the patch.

Randy, I have 3 different wieghts of paper, all high cotton bond paper. Some molds throw a bullet that is .447 and patch up to land. The bullet pictured is big. .457. Patch is the thiinest I have, onionskin. My paper depends on the bulet. I have a batch I cast from Jorge's mold that are quite small comparred to my 2 molds. I use the heaviest paper for those. Genuine PP slugs are smooth sided. Some are tapered, some are straight sided. Some are flat base, some are cup base. My rifle seems to like the tapered cup base bullets but also shoots VERY well with a 525 grain straight sided bullet I cast.Every rifle in this class is a law unto itself so ya just have to find out what it likes. Whe ya do, HOLY CHITSKI do they ever shoot and they hit game like a friggin' safe fell on them. IMHO the 45 caliber Sharps Rifles that are 2.4" to 2.875" are pure killing machines.

Et, those pics look like you've got some corrosion going in those cases. Rough dirty inside case necks crap up accuracy.
If you regulate the front sight so that with the ladder folded down to be dead on at 100, ranging shots not particularly needed. The markings on the ladder will be very close.
Here's the copy of an original Sharps bullet I shoot. It measures .435 as cast, I wrap it with 20lb all cotton paper to 451. Haven't got anything for accuracy I'ld take to a longrange match but it'll hold 6inch at 300. And knocks elk dead.

Here's the link to Brent Danielsons paper patching site.
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/PPB.htm

I have his article. I sure as hell don't use egg white to moisten my patches. The rear sight was brand new when I shot it. It was its maiden voyage. Got it from Shiloh Rifle. Works nice.

Lots of different ways to skin a cat.A fair share of the folks shooting pp bullets in matches won't use anything but distilled water to moisten the patches for wrapping.
I prefer to use a 1/8 in lubed felt wad between .030 fiber wads under the bullet,instead of a lube cookie. Some use dry cork wads with fiber and ldpe wads.
Some folks only seat maybe a .10 into the case some seat to a full .4.
Darn few folks wrap to groove diameter with black, that's generally best left for smokeless.

True on that, but I learned that originals (mine does) tend to have an oversize bore. It took a bit of 'spearmentin' to figger out what worked best. The 110's are quite cranky.

I've not so sure the 110's are that cranky to get to shoot well. I'm more of a mind the recoil from the things is more than is easily digested during loadwork up/bench testing sessions. I think the more accustomed to getting the snot knocked out of em everytime they yank the trigger, the better they can control the gun for accuracy.
90's aren't particularly newbie friendly but can be loaded with 45-70 charge weights , just to get a good start on it.

I can see we are going to have to get you all together to have a shoot fest! What a collaboration of great members and minds!

Keith you bring that 86 down here to the house sometime and we'll get er up and running the way it was meant to be. I'll let ya sample some different sharps etc on the 270 yd gong.
The spring match at Alliance Ne is the first part of May, and Kenny Wasserburger's Creedmore match is on his dads place up on Lance Creek. Maybe you can come to one of those and you can really get the affliction.

R13;

Where in Wy are you? Might have to figure a rendesvous next year.......

VA, you (and anyone else) ought to plan a trip to Alliance, NE for the spring shoot, or the Sagebrush in August.

You'd get to meet and shoot with these two disreputable characters, as well as some others.

Alliance is a stone's throw from Wyoming, so a lot of folks from there are in attendance.

Paul

There's a motley crew heading to Wyoming next year for a buffler hunt..........................

Va, I'm around Ft. Laramie.

If you make it to Alliance you'll wanna steer a wide path around those two reprobates in Pauls pic. No good turkeys they both are.......Specially the scumbucket in the fakey cowboy hat....

I am working up by Wasserburger's on a project now. I see Kenny's Dad now and then. I'll take you up on the invite to come down and shoot. We'll have to work out a time after hunting season is over.

WEll I hope you get that mess on 85 cleared up fore I have to head up for whitetail...

We'll need to find some space between about the 20 of Nov, and mid January when global warming hasn't got things buggered up..

IF the weather would allow us a few more days we will have it done. Got a darn lion in the neighborhood I am hunting deer in that needs gone. Got a lion tag in case I see him. Wondered why the deer population was on the shy side.

You hunting the Blackhills for whitetail?

Well if things gets unsquirreled here before the end of season ..... otherwise yup would like to go Bearlodge, Maybe try and make a run up the peak or the Bighorns before, but cows and weather are keeping things tite right now....

Yup,

GTC

Actually I posted this series of pics to give a decent idea of how to proceed for fellas who had little or no exposure or experience with the operations I showed. A baseline if you will. As Ranch 13 points out there are a lot of ways this is done and the complexity seems to get more for comp shooters. All I want to know is you fellas' opinions as to whether this series of pics have helped in understanding the very basics of patching and loading.

ET,

This has been a great discussion, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think that "complexity" is necessarily associated with competitive shooting. Actually, your paper patching routine with wet wrapping plus lube is more complicated than most target shooters use. Those that I'm aware of don't lube their patches, but you make a good case for it for hunting loads. Target shooters don't use lube cookies either. So, in some cases loading for competition is less complicated. Not sizing cases at all comes to mind, just slip fitting the bullet in a fired case.

Perhaps what you refer to as complexity comes down to attention to detail, but that can be seen as quality control. Weighing and sorting bullets is probably unnecessary assuming careful casting, There probably isn't enough variance to make it worthwhile. Ditto weighing and sorting cases, which I've never done, although some do. Primer choice doesn't seem to make that much difference, unless you're down to fine tuning a load. Having clean brass, inside the neck in particular, can affect stretching and even case separation, so that's a detail that would apply to hunting ammo as well as target loads. Attention to details like case length can help avoid problems, excess fouling and leading in particular.

It seems to me that the main point of complexity comes in loading powder. We know that compression is very important. I weigh, and use my vibrating setup for long range competitive loads, but for buffalo silhouette loads I mount my powder measure on top of my drop tube and let 'er rip. You can see in my pics that the vibrating setup comes off, and I can mount the measure bracket with a couple of wing nuts. Very fast case charging. Another detail that can probably be bypassed is a paper wad over the primer, although some claim to get better groups with it. Crimping enough to remove the case mouth bell is another option. Some rifles shoot better with the bell and others without. As long as you can chamber a round, it isn't essential.

In my case much of the "complexity" comes from carefully designing and assembling my loading setup to make the actual loading process easier while maintaining precision. Back to my drop tube setup, some of the effort in building it pays off in terms of less effort in loading, so there's a trade-off. Note that the aluminum funnels are bigger than most. This means a quicker dump, because there is less chance of missing and spilling. The vibrator makes it unnecessary to time the pour. Just position the case, dump the charge, and hit the toggle switch. My tube also includes a "no spill" feature at the bottom of the tube, another detail that saves time and avoids mess.

Paul

To put another perspective on my long winded late night post, it comes down to priorities.

A hunter may carefully assemble relatively few rounds. I'll bet somebody planning to hunt African game with a Sharps pays a lot of attention to detail.

If I'm going to a big match I'll need upwards of 200 rounds, all of which have to be of consistent high quality. Time consuming as handloading is, I'm always looking for ways to make it more efficient.

It's really no different from someone loading modern centerfire hunting ammo on a single stage press vs. a highpower or pistol competitor using a progressive press. Not to mention those $300 case trimmers!

Paul

I still shoot factory fodder exclusively; but I have to admit, this has been a fascinating thread to read.

No way this thread should bleed out,....gasp it's last,....

Fer' Cryin' out LOUD,

....we haven't even begun to discuss some of the finer nuances of

this,...."nekkid' or 'wrapped up' racket.

Gettin' particular here ET,

The recomended booze for cleaving to these stunts,....$80 U.S. here.

Small Beans,....if it will help with my ammo rolling,....suitably advise.

Photos avail. on chort notice.

GTC

Not Chure,....here,....

Chort Notice,....V.

.....chort chambers,.........V

Needing to "Stretch" your brass, so you don't get,....

I know,....let's fly to Bangkok and get loaded,

alla this other crap'll settle.

And the rifles discussed will continue to deliver enviable accuracy,

......assuming the operator knows whether his azz is punched, Bored, or Ate out,....by a Magpie.

I love youze' guys,.....I can Write / Tap like this here, and not get run off.

Think( if ya'll haven't already) 1500Yd. sight settings.

How ridiculous, to even suggest that,........

Yup,

GTC

Paul,the 19th century match shooters din't use the lube disc either. In fact, a set of instructions from the Sharps Company advised the comp shooter to use a piece of NEWSPRINT for the over powder wad. I think the main difference is that many comp men run a bore hog through quite frequently (and 19th century instructions appear to bear this out) whereas the hunter (back then or now) does not. Keeping the fouling soft for a long string of buffalo killing shots seems to require more lube that helps that. I do it because it makes it easier to run a dry patch down the pipe and get most of the offending fouling out with ease. I actually don't have to run a patch down the bore for at least 10 shots, Sharpsguy gets a lot more. But he is WAAAAY ahead of me on this.

Yep, that's been my understanding.

The buffalo herd shoots at Ackley, IA require 25 shots in about 10 minutes. That doesn't allow for using a blow tube or swab, certainly not between every shot. Most of us use lube cookies. I can get off 25 shots without blowing or swabbing. I sacrifice a bit of accuracy with my cookie loads, but that's a reasonable trade off.

There's a thread about paper patch bullets going on at the Shiloh forum right now. Talk about complexity! Those guys really know their stuff, but it's too technical for me. Maybe some day...

Paul

Paul, you just hit the nail on the head as to what I was referring to about "complexity". The old time buff hunters kept it to what worked best for killingmillions of buffler and simple nuff to do in the field nite after nite.The old time comp men and todays comp men both look for the way to pefection in their technique 'cuz fractions of fractions of an inch makes the difference to them. For guys like me, the results are currently in the oven smelling scrumptious!!! I LOVE that moose meat!!!

There is a lot of mental masturbation and speculating going on over there, too. I frankly refuse to wipe every shot like those boys do. Re inventing the wheel is hard work.

The original Sharps factory sold ammunition by the thousand round case, and shipped thousands of those cases to the sutlers on the western frontier. The overwhelming majority of this ammunition was paper patched, and it had to shoot accurately in every rifle chambered for it, which it did. It also had to shoot accurately for twenty or more consecutive shots without wiping or a man could lose his life due to a jammed rifle. It also did this.

Paper patched ammo is inherently satisfying to shoot, for some reason. I can load 45 rounds of grease groove ammo in 52 minutes, but it takes 2 1/2 hours to load 45 rounds of paper patch. I can't say that the paper patched ammo is significantly more accurate than the greasers, but the difference is definitely there, at least in my hunting rifles.

ET has a great moose kill to his credit. If that old rifle of his could talk, there is no telling what it could tell us. I have taken three American buffalo and many of the large plains antelope in South Africa with paper patched bullets using both the 45-70 and a 45-110 Sharps, and I have yet to recover a single bullet or lose an animal.

Is it addictive? You bet. And I love it.

I wonder if bullet shape and tolerances were/are part of it? My Paul Jones Creedmoors are a bore riding design, and won't chamber unless I blow tube or wipe. My Brooks Postell bullets are much more tolerant, and can usually go several shots before chambering becomes difficult.

Did the original Sharps have a bit of freebore?

Paul

The original Sharps did not have freebore. Their chambers and barrels were cut to take paper patched bullets. Grease grooved bullets required a different chamber dimension and throat configuration .

I probably used the term freebore incorrectly. I believe the early (Farmingdale) Shilohs were throated similar to the originals.

There are undoubtably optimal configurations depending on whether the rifle is intented to shoot paper patched bullets or greasers, but I understand that PP will work in the current production Shilohs. I'll find out next season.

Paul

Paul--The early Farmingdale had a "freebore" that was nowhere near the original chamber configuration. Mr. Droge had a misguided notion of what a chamber to shoot paper patch should look like, and frankly screwed up a lot of barrels and caused a lot of guys a tremendous amount of angst and frustration.

Why he didn't take an original and do a chamber cast and copy it is beyond me. Now a couple of guys, led by Orville Loomer, have done just that. They have had chamber reamers made to cut these original configuration chambers, and they are smaller in diameter at the case mouth than a standard chamber, and have a quite different leade angle.

I have a 15 pound Shiloh 45-90 cut with that chamber reamer, and it is EXTREMELY accurate. It will only accept paper patched ammunition, a grease grooved round will not chamber.

A standard chamber can usually be made to shoot paper patched ammo fairly well, but the loading procedure requires that you adhere to some very narrow guidelines to make it work. Most guys with standard chambers get creative with their loading and step out of the box and don't get good results as a consequence.

You raise a question for me Bill. My original will chamber and shoot the Lyman 193 and the 125 bullets but factually they shoot like crap outta my rifle. What you just said may have a lot to do with that. It shoots paper patch ammunition just dandy.

For one newly wetted to this whole endeavor, the pics and the discussion around it are priceless.

ET, your pics just cut months, if not more, off my learning curve. Thank you.

I know that there are other ways to skin this cat, and that I'll likely develop my own, but seeing the cat skinned, quickly, easily, in detail, and as per appropriate for hunting goodness, is worth more than can be said.

BTW - GOEX distributor is located 30 minutes from the house, I can pick up from them, and FFg Express runs $17/pound.

Uh oh............

That is exactly what I was aiming for VA. If they flatten out a few learning curves then my objective has been achieved.

Ditto.

Very interesting about the chambers and throats. Pedersoli has their own ideas about throating as well. Awhile back there was a mould designed for a "Pedersoli bullet" that was circulated around among several shooters for a test. I don't know what became of the project. I had a Pedersoli for a short while, and it shot the Lyman 457125 Govt. bullet just fine. It was a good rifle, but the stock didn't work for me, and an opportunity to buy a used Shiloh came up.

VA, that sounds like a good price for the GOEX Express. Last time I bought some it was $18 or $19, IIRC

Paul

Have to agree with VAnimrod. Very informative thread. Good for those of us just getting into this.

Paul, how's about you adding to this thread on loading up GG bullets!! Give the guys an idea of proper sizing, alloy, compression, wad...and tilt it towards hunting type ammunition. I'd ask Sharpsguy, but he is a paper patch man mostly. He has dial up too so pictures would be too time consuming for him to post. How's about it? Do ya want to help this thread become a really decent learning tool for the guys who want to use a coal burner to lay out tasty critters???

Can do, but no sense reinventing the wheel. For starters it's hard to improve on Chuck Raithel's primer of a few years back. Like I said early in the other thread, I don't agree with all of it, but it's pretty darned good.

http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/Introduction%20to%20BPCR%20Loading.pdf

I sent VA a brief synopsis of my loading procedure, and as soon as I can get my wife's assistance I'll post it here as an attachment. Haven't figured out how to do that myself yet. Edited: See BPCR Basics thread.

I'm no guru on hunting ammo, but the general principle is to use a softer alloy, like 40/1, and a flat or blunt nosed bullet. Not a tight bore rider like the Creedmoor I mentioned earlier. The main difference otherwise boils down to tolerances; you don't want to have to push and jam to chamber a round when said tasty critter comes on the scene. Just as with modern rifles, tight usually produces optimal accuracy, but at the expense of easy loading of the rifle and repeat shots.

Those other factors you mentioned are really a matter of choice and what works best in a particular rifle. 20/1 or 30/1 alloy, depends. You get a bit more diameter with more tin. .030 or .060, fiber or LDPE (plastic) wads? Again, not critical. Compression can be important, but each load and rifle will have it's own preferences. The main thing with black is to make sure there is no air space between powder and bullet.

Sizing. I've never FL sized a straight case, even new brass, but there are those who do it every loading. I just neck size with an inexpensive Lyman neck die.

BTW, I use .45-70 dies to load my .45-90. Work fine for me, and a bit less expensive than buying dedicated .45-90 dies. I do use a Redding Competition seater, again a .45-70 although I believe Redding makes a special .45-90 version for Buffalo Arms.

There are others who post here who have lots of knowledge, and I'm sure they'd welcome questions as well.

I'd also suggest a new thread, Black Powder Basics.

Paul

Thanks for the lesson

Hey it was easy, *I* could even do it!

I just re-read the entire thread and I enjoyed it every bit as much as when we first posted it all. Paper patching really isn't hard and it is better therapy than the basket weaving those nice young men in their clean white coats are always trying to get me to do!!

Paper-patching is pretty cool,once you get set up. I have been amazed at sone of the group with my .458.I have started patching some .303 Brit's with .30 cast just for fun...