why is it that you don't hear of folks shooting a Ruger #1 (or a #3) for BPCR?

Are they lacking in performance?

They are lacking in legality (and they suck and are ugly).

For beginners, they MUST have a hammer. The kind that gives one's thumb something to do. There is more, but that is sufficient to keep the Rugers at bay - thankfully.

aesthetics duly noted.

Aside from competition shooting, do they still suck for black powder?

i.e. if I have on my list a gun for black powder shooting, and someone I know has a Ruger they are looking to unload, am I shorting myself on the capabilities of the gun, performance wise - if I have no intention of doing competition shooting

I have no idea why they would suck for bp specifically. They just suck for ugly. Just my opinion of course. Should probably shoot bp just fine if one wanted to mess with one.

They are a pain in the butt to mount a sight capable of reaching the distances needed to even shoot in the "gong" matches. Altho there are a few of them around that have been modified. Not to mention just the bare bones cost rapidly approaches a hiwall, sharps , or rolling block from the Italian manufactures, that all are legal to go into any type of bpcr match with just the addition of sights in the already drilled and tapped holes in the gun.
I did see one that Ron Long had modified and rebarreled to 32-40 for a Schuetzen rifle.

ugly my ass

Ruger developed them in the 60's as an update of the Fahrquharsen action, and part of the update was to use modern smokeless cartridges. That was before BPCR gained in popularity.

The #1 is not as easy to take down for cleaning as say, a Sharps, but as long as they have a good barrel I suspect they'd shoot fine with well crafted loads. My .45-70 is about MOA with heavy smokeless loads.

The safety is in the way of a tang sight, is another downside to the #1. Competition rules require exposed hammers, as Brent noted but I don't know the specific reasons why.

Ruger made a limited edition for Lyman, that came in a case with long tube scope and long heavy barrel in .45-70. I've never heard of anyone who actually shot one, however, and that was before they starting making their own barrels.

Yes, their phylogenetic relationship to the Farq is duly noted and is often used as a means of justifying their existence. But it is also, not really a Farqueson nor nearly as picturesque or as well balanced as its progenitor, just as a Ruger Blackhawk is not Colt Peacemaker.

They, I believe, legal in BPTR (Creedmoor and midrange), but I have never seen one in that application. I have no doubt they can be made to work and even shoot accurately. But there are so many other rifles that can do all that a Ruger can and still look good doing it.

BPCR rifles must have hammers, must be American made or reproductions of American made rifles of an era that has some sort of cut off that I do not recall. Farqs and, hence Rugers, are out, as are Sharps Borchardts (original or not) and Martinis, and many other serviceable, if somewhat complexion-challenged rifles of various parentages.

In my opinion, if you want a good bcpr, you can start and stop with a highwall. New (cheap) or old (maybe not quite so cheap), they will shoot at the top of the game, they are easy on the eyes, and they will win any game that the operator is sufficiently competent enough that he can get the job done.

But that's just me. Some say the same thing about Sharp's, and others about rollers, or Ballards, or Wessons, or even the slightly questionable Stevens among others.

I won't comment on whut yer ass looks like 'cuz I don't head in that direction, but the Ruger #1 is BUTT ugly compared to a Sharps, even a Borchardt

Damn. Now I gotta wear a paper sack on my head when I take the Ruger out. Might have to get drunk just to dance with the old girl.

You as$es are giving me a complex.

Giving you a complex is pretty challenging since you only have about 2 neurons to trip over.

Nothing really wrong with a Ruger #1 but if they were the only singleshot available, I'd probably own a bolt rifle.

[bleep] you and the goat you rode here on.

Having a bad day already I see. Could be a long one for ya.

Nah, great day here. Just don't care for little arrogant pricks like you.

Enjoy.

If this is a good day for you then you live a sorry life. But that's not news is it?

Do you even know what a BPCR is?

Rant on, you are, at least, entertaining.

Hey Spanky, keep on plugging. No rant, my comment was tongue in cheek ( look it up ) and meant to liven things.

If the black powder world is plagued by your kind, then have at it. I'll stay smokeless.

But as I said, enjoy.

Good. We don't need ya here. Bye

and let me guess, Renee Zellweger is your dream girl?

what, pray tell, is ugly about this? It's way prettier than I am



That said, I do like High Walls, and Sharps, too.

Oh where to start? So many possibilities.... And prettier than you? What does THAT say?

Just kiddin'. It looks right smart - for a Ruger.

Egad, that IS funny. Bricktop couldn't do better, more vulgar yes, but not better.

Cheers all.

If one is narrowly focussed,and sees "BPCR" as NRA sanctioned BPCR competitions,....yes they are illegal, one of many practical avenues that COULD have been left open to new shooters. As is most often the case the NRA's goddam rule book got thicker and thicker by the year, and as is the case with so many of the other NRA sanctioned matches / disciplines, is a waning and basically DYING game. LOTS of the clubs are still holding BPCR matches, but have given up on screwing around with a bunch of fundamentally pointless, and chickenchit "Rules".

If one broadens one's focus just a bit and looks at a bigger picture, the #1 IS allowed in some pretty damn fine BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE events. Ones put on by some pretty damn fine INTERNATIONAL Historic Rifle associations. here's an example of but one of em'.

Link: http://www.ssaa.org.au/competition-info/stories/big-game-rifle_may2.pdf

Where the NRA obsesses page after goddam page about minute details, The World Creedmoor and SSRAs are liable to limit things a bit, in that regard, thus:

"Types of Rifles Allowed

Any muzzle-loading rifle with a pre-1900s design is allowed. If you shoot a breech-loading rifle, it must be set up like a pre-1900s rifle, and its chamber must allow an original black powder cartridge. The cartridge may not be smaller than a .32 caliber and may not be a bolt-action rifle. Sights for competition rifles must use a metal sight that are similar to pre-1900s rifles, or a single corrective tang sight lens may be used. Sights that allow for magnification of the target are not allowed. The stock of the weapon must be made to a pre-1900s rifle specification."

I've handled (and competed against) some Canadian guns, tricked out and fitted up as Long range Creedmoor rifles,......awesome guns, and run by some savvy operators.

In few words, there's "BPCR",....and than there's the BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE game.

One's PATENTLY a "Big Fish, Small Pond" racket, and the other little more urbane, tolerant, and sophisticated in it's approach to rifle sport.

# 1 s can be spooled up into GREAT "BPCRs"

GTC

As often the case GTC Pretty much has confused left with right and up with down. Not a whole lot of that is right. In fact, most of it is not. But be that as it may, he is one to bitch from the bleachers about [bleep] he doesn't know and in which he refuses to participate.

If you want to know what BPCR matches are all about, I suggest going to one rather than listen to non-participating internet experts. And then, if you want, got to a BPTR match as well. They are not the same - another thing that Greg confused and see if those suit you different. If not - go start your own club.

Hey stupids, have you ever actually REGISTERED, and HELD NRA BPCR sanctioned matches, as a Match Director,.......at YOUR own club ?

Built and maintained a 500 M range ?

I have,.....and a LOT of folks reading this, here, KNOW that.

Go spout liberal rhetoric about folk's racism, or give a wolf a blow job,..... and quit yer' goddam obnoxious and petty LYING.

GTC

You are good at name calling and lying and generally raising hell over nothing Greg. You aren't very good at reciting NRA rules or regs or knowing much about the state of the game.

Rules are on line at the NRA competition website for any that are interested. They are short and to the point. If you don't like 'em, maybe Greg can tell you how to run your own match.

All, note that the "Rules" are SELECTIVELY "enforced" in terms of qualifying your rifle, and getting that stupid sticker pasted on the stock, and a few other areas. Depends which "old Boys" group you run with. Not that I give a damn what your rifle weighs, one way or another.

Brunt,.....
Why not answer the 2 questions I just asked you, Wolf Boy ?

GTC

Here is a question for you. Have you ever entered, even once, in the Raton matches? The answer, of course, is precisely and exactly no. Isn't it? You really don't know what you are talking about because you've never been in the game in the first place.

My rifle meets all NRA regulations - the very few that there are. As does everyone else's rifle at nationals. No selective enforcement at all. Just another one of your lies you want to promote. Anytime you want put money on the legality of my rifles you just feel free to step right up and slap down those Benjamin's. But when it comes to actually standing behind your word, you are quick to go back under your rock. AGAIN.

For a New Jersey wannabe cowboy, you are pretty mediocre with your claims and your name calling and all the rest.

Again, anyone that wants to know why a Ruger #1 is not a legal rifle and what is a legal rifle, the rules are short, sweet and available to all on the net.

Yes, I have shot at NRA regionals at Raton, Doorknob.

World Creedmoor there , as well.

You gonna' answer MY questions ?

GTC

Really, what year did you shoot the BPCR nationals? Must have been before my time. You sound a LOT like Jim Linthicum that way.

I said REGIONALS, AZZWHOLE. Never mind what [bleep]' year, at this point

Now,......Answer MY questions

You EVER been an NRA Sanctioned BPCR Match Director ?

The Name is Greg Cameron, and yours is [bleep]' mud, at this point.

GTC

So, now I'm "mud." Well, you've called me lots of worse things so I guess I'm moving up in the world.

But let me see, "Greg Cameron" how many times have I seen that name in the Raton Regional scores.... hmmm, about exactly the same as our president's last initial - zero. Never heard any of the gunsmithing, BPCR regional shooting (and winning) Raton locals like Jerry or RJ even mention your name. Never heard anyone at any match anywhere ever say, "that Jersey-cowboy-wannabe sure puts on a good match". Nope, never heard that. Never heard of anyone that has ever seen you on the line at any match.

I have never seen you at Phoenix for the regionals that are closest to you either. Of course, that one time you knew I was going to be there and you and buddy Les had to hide under a rock because you didn't want to own up to Les's wager. Oh well. I mostly put that on Les anyway.

And then you want to imply that I compete with an illegal gun but you are pretty quiet about putting money behind your mouth. Classy dude. Very classy.

But why are you a match director for such a game when you have nothing but bad things to say about the game, the rules, the people that shoot it, the organization that runs it? You like to claim that match directors have a lot of "selective" rule enforcement. Well, you must be speaking from your own personal experience as a match director because it sure doesn't happen at the matches that I've been shooting all over the western US. But keep bad mouthing the game and the people that run and play it. You are, at the least, entertaining.

Yes, you are a lot like ol' Jim Linthicum - but at least he actually shot a few times.

In the end, it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me if you have run one match or 200. You don't seem to know the rules with regards to what is a BPCR rifle and what is not. For a match director, that's saying something, and it ain't good. Neither is that part about "selective enforcement" of the rules.

Brett, you're a real classic, and I'm kinda' glad that we've avoided one another over the years. I've been OUT of the game for 8 years now, got other fish to fry, as it were.

Speaking of Phoenix / Avery,....just get the chit outta' yer' ears for a moment and ask steve Rhoades, Chip mate, Ken Gost, or several other Az. BPCR old timers OK ?

They've attended and shot my matches in S.V., enjoyed em', too, as I remember.

You've a strange, and obviously troubling value system, little man. And it's BECAUSE of azzwholes with your attitude that NRA BPCR numbers have gone down, and will CONTINUE to plummet.

GTC

So, in other words, you are bad mouthing a game and the people that play it and run it and you haven't even participated for 8 yrs. Way to go guy. You really go "it".

And now I am the whole reason for the decline of everything. Good move guy. Real good.

You're a real rock star BD.

Dazzled by bright lights, fame, and glitter.

widely acclaimed, etc, etc.

GTC

No rock star here. Just another triple A shooter who likes the game and they folks that run it.

You on the other hand, hate the game, the players, the folks that run the show. You apparently "selectively enforce" rules and like to impugn people who you have never met, for their equipment, which you have never seen.

And oh yeah, you are 8 yrs out of date (at least).

You talk a great line Jersey Cowboy, but you are as phony as any $3 bill that was ever printed.

Are you going through menopause, suffering from menstrual cramps, bloated and b$tchy,........or perhaps just disappointed and glum because one of your cakes fell?

Gotta' be one of the above.

By the way, it's STATEN ISLAND, New York where I was born, cornholer. you really need to go read some Alfred Henry Lewis, maybe start with "The West Belongs to ALL of Us".

Don't worry. Boys, He doesn't own a copy of "Old Wolfville". Rephrase,....if he does, the azzwhole never got it here.

Phony,.....right, Brett.

Liberals and lies repeated kinda' thing with you Obee voters, ain't it ?

You do it very well

GTC

Staten Island, Jersey - you are still as phony and fake as you can be.

And the only one lying around here is you.

Why don't you save your commentary and criticism for something you actually know something about. You continue to whine and complain about a game you don't even play. How phony is that.

Well, ride on Keyboard Cowboy. You are a hell of an expert as long as you don't crawl out of your digital universe.

The temper of MY times, and this place, has basically eliminated "Playing Games", at least for the time being.

For the moment, the REAL will have to suffice.

Lot's of the folks reading this will KNOW how absolutely, and totally fulla' chit you are, Professor.

Methinks thou doth profess to much.

.....but by all means, "Play" on.

GTC

You can't quit can ya?

Well, be sure your King-of-the-Internet-Jersey-Cowboys Title is still intact.

What do you get out of this anyway? Criticizing a game you don't play, and people you don't know - lying all the time. Are you feeling really tall in your internet saddle now?

You are a strange guy to be sure. Insulting everyone you can, any way you can think of, and "professing" (you need practice at that) about things for which you are totally clueless.

Well, giddy-up cowboy and don't forget to reload your fantasy 6-shooter. There's danger up ahead and only you can save the planet.

Meanwhile, I'm laughing at you so hard the house is shaking.

See ya - at a REAL match someday - if you ever get up the courage (fat chance, eh?)

Yup,.....a deranged and spine chilling sound, no doubt

Brett's House,.....

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=F9b76RWM7qE[/video]

Have a Spider on all of us, BD.

Let's leave this fool to ruminate,
... no wait, given his somewhat offensive avatar I don't think that's the right term.

Given that there is NO "Historical Imperative" for a bunch of rules made up long ago by 2-3 old fellows that invented the great BPCR game, and that a HOST of "period Correct" BP fueled arms that WERE part of the Western Settlement era were "Banned", this avenue looks like it'll end in a brick wall.

Let's just leave the Obama supporting, Liberally Pontificating, Interminably Bloviating traitor drooling in his little corner, like Renfield, and get back to talking about the MERITS of the # 1.

Their pretty NOISY in bone stock configuration, has anybody ever gotten one quietened down a bit ?

Next ?

GTC

Jeez GTC, that prick sure is wound tight. Gotta be little man syndrome. Too bad.

Thanks for your insight and common sense answer.

My pleasure,.......

Sure has it in for me, don't he ?

water of a healthy duck's back, I assure you.

Best Regards,

GTC

Whooohooo!!! You have a groupie iCowboy! That really must warm your heart.

So, let's recount the advantages of a Ruger #1 as a BPCR....

1. It is cheap
2. It often comes with better than average wood.
3.......

Sorta gets stuck there don't it?

On the other hand,
1. It is pretty much too light
2. It comes in the wrong calibers mostly and those that are legal calibers usually have the wrong twist, and are too short by most anyone's standards (with almost certain caveats for the exaulted iCowboy from Jersey/Staten Island/whatever).
3. Triggers suck
4. Stock configuration for use with iron sights sucks
5. Mounting iron sights on it sucks even more
6. It comes apart so easily for internal cleaning, not.
7. It ain't legal - which obviously stresses our iCowboy something fierce. (caveat - it would be legal at one of your matches because you selectively enforce the rules).

Yeah, looks like a real contender for a BPCR - such a shame the folks that actually are in charge of this game didn't consult you first.

So, how about YOUR expert opinion on how super the Ruger #1 is as a BPCR silhouette rifle?

Brent, calm down a bit and answer a question.

HOW MANY "Grand Slams" have been shot in NRA BPCR SILHOUETTE since it's inception, and by whom ?

GTC

Pretty quiet over here,.....maybe the "prick" has to go do a search, or something.

A "Grand slam" subtends to have aggregated a "Ten Run" on all four banks (not all on the same day),......at NRA sanctioned matches, duly witnessed, signed, annointed Penises laid on the almighty "score book", etc.

GTC etc.

Crickets ?

Stupid little man now, aren't you. Calderon got the first one. Chilson with scope (maybe twice). You're still ignorant as all get out and you can't even stick to the topic you started yourself.

So, now what have you proven? That you know or understand the rules of BPCR? Not a chance.

Come on iCowboy. Take another swig of your bottle and mount up.

Who spotted for Ron Calderone for 3 or 4 matches prior, and was spotting for him when he finally aced it, Brent ?

GTC

Crickets,....again

GTC

Don't have to mount nothing,.......spurt loudly now , "Ex-spurt'

WHO was spotting for Ron, and who spotted for him all through the long hot Summer leading up to that amazing feat ?

Has it been replicated, since?

GTC

C'mon, Brent,.......cat got your slimy, diseased, liberal TONGUE, or something ?

WHO was spotting for Ron Calderone, on the day that he FINALLY got his 9th and 10th Turkey ?

Where ?

Who was the match director that day ?

Who else (that you know) was there ?

GTC

HMmmmmm,

We seem to be missing a response here.

Isn't THAT odd.

GTC

Let's STICK to the topic, Brent.

WTF was spotting for him on that now Historic, and Legendary day ?

GTC

Words from a mouthy PRICK is about what I'm getting out of Brent Danielson's hysterical and PMS like rants.

Gotta' wonder what it would be like to have him spotting for ya', probly' another "Wooden Indian", at best. Useless, self centered pricks to a man, ....the "Wooden Indian" spotters.

You having some sorta' PROBLEM answering a question about this sport you hold so dear, and that I hate and know nothing about, Brent ?

C'mon, Wolf Boy,....give it up.

GTC

I dunno', Brent

....what do YOU think I've proven ?

you sure have gone QUIET.

GTC

Really ?

Ya' know boys, that [bleep] was almost landed, and I pulled just a little too hard on this light tackle I'm runnin'.

Brent's a puffed up, truth spinning azzwhole, and has gone into hiding. Jeez, I WONDER why ?

In any, and all events, Brent, a heartfelt Adios, mofo.

We'll have to pick the Grand Slam story up on another day, I reckon.

GTC

Cross, hope you can make Quemado

Doing my best to make that so, my friend.

GTC

Cross what are you gonna do now that you own him?

Sorry but I went to bed, rather than bother with you.

I don't know or care who was match director for Ron when he shot his 10 chickens. I suppose you will claim that record for yourself? Funny how it is that I don't see or hear your name wherever the feat is mentioned. But it's really all you, of course.

And now back to making that #1 into a BPCR. It is hard to imagine many worse falling blocks for BPCR when you actually get around to it. And that still won't make it a legal rifle for the sport - than you don't play or know squat about.

Carry on with your groupie.

I gather that you are an experienced and successful competitor, which requires both talent & dedication. But since I starting visiting this forum, I've seen you disrupt a couple of good discussions with insults out of the blue, for no reason. You're apparently one of those guys who just gets a kick out of pizzing people off. I've learned not to pay attention to such folks, because there's no guarantee what they're saying is what they mean, or even believe.

that's fine with me tex-n-cal.

No let's NOT get back to that just yet, you mouthy twit.

Match director?

No, That was Gordon "Pegleg" Blohm, God rest his soul

The match was at Three Points, Robles Junction, Az.

I was the spotter.

I wasn't at Three points the day that Ron toppled 10 chickens. IIRC Dave Maurer was spotting for him that day. Dave headed north for the Summer, and I spotted for Ron in the quest for a 10 Turkey pin, to complete his "Grand Slam". Tough Summer that, lotsa' bad wind and dust, mirage, etc. Ron's a VERY good shot, and it was an honor to be chosen to squad with him. Not saying that it was always easy, we were ALL pretty happy when the 10th in a row bird went down.

What's YOUR take on the importance of a good spotter, Wolf Boy?
How be you blow some smoke up the collective campfire's azz on THAT ?
(Brett's probably so damned good at this he doesn't NEED one.)

I'm willing to bet that you're a "Wooden Indian" and just a [bleep]' aggravating, arrogant bastid to be squadded with, and have on a scope behind one,.....I can smell that on you, from clear down here.

It's "Hard to imagine" you being much of anything ELSE but a mouthy arrogant c#nt at ANYTHING else you do, either, Brent.

One of the posters on this thread is a truth spinning azzwhole.
Take me off ignore, I'll PM ya' Ron's phone #, and you can verify that I'm not that poster.

I'll get the pics of the enormous "Cup" that I built (it was actually a 120 Lb. Lead pot tricked out as a "cup")for Ron, and "Awarded" amongst all that great Three points / Phoenix crowd, on a cold day in the following Winter. The damn thing was HEAVY, and he damn near dropped it when I placed it in his hands. Ron ordered him up a C. Sharps Highwall in honor of completion of his quest. I did some final tweaking and tuning on it, and he commenced inflicting his master class torture on us lesser mortals with it. The friendly rivalry 'tween he and Chip m will always make for a smile, when recalled.

Once his fresh Highwall was up, IHad the opportunity to tune / workover his hard run old Browning BPCR. A badger barrel that's digested well over 12,000 rounds of greasers in Az's dusty clime shows NO circumfrential toolmarks, under a 28 power digitized borescope (Morrison Precision's) the thing LOOKED pretty rough, all the scoring and "features" longitudinal with the bore axis.
Re-crowned the old beast, and last I saw it it was still sub MOA in Calderon's capable hands.

Quote

you don't play or know squat about.

You're a dirty little piece of work BD, and should go to work for the current DOJ. Your willingness to twist, distort, and muddy the truth might be a great fit. Hell, maybe you should get Jay Carney's slot.

You can "Carry on" with kissing the stinkin' side of my American Azz.

GTC

O goody. You were the spotter. I'm really impressed - not.

For those that don't know, a slam in BPCR is 10 of each animal. Probably half the competitors out there have 3 legs of the slam. Hell, even I have 10 rams, pigs and turkeys. Several times over even. It is no big deal. The crux is the chickens. Only two people have ever done it.

And the thing of it is, there is no target in which the spotter plays less of a role than chickens. 10 chickens really rides on the shoulders of the shooter more than any other target - by far.

So, iCowboy, if you want to claim Ron's slam as your own, but no intelligent, experienced BPCR shooter will be impressed. Not one.

Now about that BPCR Ruger. Let's hear about it. Again, you ran into another brick wall there.

I suspect another diversion coming soon.

Twisting again, are we ?

I'm not "Claiming" sweet [bleep] All, Champ.

I'm debunking you posit that I haven't been around the game a little bit.



Jeez, that musta' just been some nomadic tribe of circus clowns wandering through that stopped to slap me on the back, and call on the telephone for three nights straight.

GTC

I'm debunking your posit that you know anything about the rules, the sport or the people that shoot it. Your a fraud, fake, phoney as soon as you leave the keyboard.

You aren't even a "has been." You're a "never was".j

Keep impugning the people that shoot the sport, the people that run the sport and tell us all about the game that you don't play. It is really fascinating.

Better get back to your bottle buddy. And start telling us how wonderful the Ruger #1 is at BPCR. I'm sure interested in that.

Interesting conversation.
But lets keep things in perspective. There are several aspects of "bpcr". True the Ruger isn't legal in the sillouette side of it, but it is legal in the bptr and the biggest aspect of "bpcr" competitions the gong shoots, except for those very seldom encountered matches that require an exposed hammer..

Your pretty much focussed on NRA BPCR Silhouette, pretty Boy, and are buzzing around that one mission dedication like a fly on apile of fresh dung.

There are a LOT of Ruger # 1s tricked out as Long Range BP Target rifles all over the WORLD. The Ontario bunch have a Lot of em' wearing Badgers, and sporting the side mounted Gibbs style sight, and that rear mounted Butt stock set up as well. And they CAN shoot em'.

Conversing with you makes me fell like I need a shower, and I've got a living to earn here.

As noted, you can kiss my azz, Danielson.

GTC

Don,
How many #1s have you seen on the line at a registered BPTR match?

Probably a good reason why they aren't popular. That's a vast understatement of course - they are all but nonexistent in fact. And for good reason.

Wannabe iCowboy - this IS the BPCR forum. Or haven't you figured that out yet?

A lot of BPTR rifles? Not really. In fact, damn few, very few. So few in fact that most years there are exactly zero at the line at the Nationals.

But I'm just sticking with what you started. The Ruger #1 is about is useless as a BPCR rifle and a damn poor choice as a BPTR.

Didn't see any at the only NRA bptr match I have been to. But there are usually a handful of them on the line at various gong matches held around the country.
We do know that Ron Long reworked a few of them into Schuetzen rifles.
To answer the OP's question, the biggest draw back is getting them fitted up with sights that will serve to the yardages needed form bpcr competition.
But there's also things like my neighbor does with his , loads those 375 H&H cases with 92 grs of 3f, tops it off with a Lyman 330 and calls it his 38-92 belted bottle neck.
Lots of folks shoot "bpcr' and never sign up for a match.

I've never seen one on the line at the nationals. Nor the Lodi regionals, nor the Phoenix regionals.

You would have to rework them so much that one might was well start with a much better action in the first place, and come put money ahead, with a better rifle too.

Sure, it can be done, but it's hardly a great choice.

Quite a few make them into Schuetzen rifles. they are much better suited for that - with a modern scope as the ASSRA allows.

If you just want to power lead down any barrel with blackpowder, you can do it with any rifle made. Hell a Model 70 will do it if that's all you wish to accomplish. But that's the reason that the OP never hears about the #1 as a BPCR - it's because they ain't legal, never will be and never should be, for the sport and they wouldn't a great choice if they were.

Yup not the best, and for all the reasons stated not handy to convert, but doable.

It doesn't matter whether they are BPCR material, but they are a lovely thing to carry in the woods, quick to the shoulder, accurate and attractive. A definite American classic.

Hmmmm, hadn't thought about that.

I doubt I could list him on E-bay, suspect that "One seriously experienced mouthy azzwhole for sale or trade, make offer" will fly.

I'll have to think about it.

Open to suggestions.

GTC

No doubt about that. They are well made, strong, and functional. For a hunting or plinking gun they are certainly a great value.

As a BPCR, they aren't much of anything.

Its hard for someone such as Brent see beauty when so much of his life is spent with his face in a pillow while he takes it in the ass

Good stuff here guys.

Guess I should have made it clear that I'm not concerned with guns being ugly, nor with competition shooting.

Strictly a bucket list line item that I wanted a single shot to throw the plethora of lead I was bequeathed. My only caveat that it kill things that are within my sight at a reasonable distance.

Carry on.

RWE,
Being a lover of single shots for my entire, conscious, life, I have succumbed to Sharps fever. I had been suffering from a chronic, but mild, form of it transmitted via Crossfireoops and EvilTwin, but then I visited with sharpsguy about ten days ago. Now it truly is terminal.

If you want a work of art that will last you for the rest of your life, one that will please you with its performance and appearance, get a Sharps.

I had lusted after #1's for many, many years, but shooting a Sharps at long range with aperture sights, then barrel sights, I have turned my back on #1's. I know, it seems a fickle thing to do, but there is no turning back now.

Whether I ever shoot in competition or just hunt and plink, a Sharps is the way for me.

Ed

well, cross and the evil one have been a heavy influence on me, and the only reason the #1 was in the mix is its a target of opportunity.

I like the sharps, but being a southpaw rifle shooter, I either want hammerless or center hammer. I will probably just hold out for the high wall that has my name on it.

Very very hard to beat a highwall. The Sharps has the history, but the highwall is a hell of a rifle. Can't go wrong with either. The #1 will sling lead down range but the highwalls and Sharps do it with a little more style and a bit more ease - as in easy to take a part if necessary, better ergonomics with irons, usually a little more mass, and usually better twist rates on the barrels for large, long lead projectiles.

Recoil seems a bit more manageable with the Sharps and 'walls relative to what I hear folks say about the #1 as well. May be a result of stock configuration.

Being a southpaw, I'll offer my take based on experience. Unless you are prepared to spend the money on a dedicated lefty stock, go with a straight line stock without any cast. I shot my right hand Shiloh #1 Sporter for many years, but recently sold it, and am now staying with my Browning highwall. The Browning is much more comfortable to shoot, mainly because the Shiloh was cast off for a right handed shooter. Just makes sense. Except for the cheekpiece, the Browning is completely ambidextrous. I never found the right side hammer to be a problem with the Sharps, just the cast off stock.

I take no position on one action design being any better than others. That has been cussed and discussed at length. Each has its pros and cons, and everybody has preferences.

If you get into tang sights, be aware that not all are lefty friendly. The right side windage screw on certain models can bark your thumb, and you want one that is engraved on both sides, so you can see the elevation markings easily.

Paul

I'm a relative newcomer to the BPCR mystique, but mystique it is. I'm still a smokeless guy primarily, but more and more the allure of casting one's own bullets wrapping them in paper or greasing them in a pan, and being able to hit animal targets at 500 yards is worse than addicting, and when I shot my bison, in Wyoming somewhere north of 2K feet above sea level (?) next to a sheepherder's marker on an outcropping of rocks whilst the small bison heard fed towards us, is right up there as one of the highlights of my hunting life.

ET was as usual absolutely correct in they are the ball and powder equivalent of heroin! . And I'll add thanks to sharpsguy, I was able to flatten my learning curve and at least know enough to be dangerous! jorge

What do you shoot? Sharps?

Sharpsguy is also a lefty. Doesn't seem to handicap him any.

He also has a source for lefty vernier sights. The ones I saw at his place looked to be of fine quality.

Ed

Yep, Shiloh-Sharps 45-110, a retirement gift from my brother-in-arms ET. 98 yards Parker Hale 475gr greaser.

Show off !!!

Like this???

I could build the lefty stock without a problem if I had to - got plenty of black walnut laying around.

Given the propensity for some folks to be enamored with the period correct motif on things, I can't say it would be just like the old days, but it would look good, and fit me.

I can't say I have a real problem with a right side hammer, other than the musket cap I had go Rambo on me from an old 58 cal one fine winter's day.

Regarding tang sights, I got to ask one hard to admit question: If a guy is becoming farsighted with age, how do rear tangs measure up? I understand that a lot of the issue is consistent form, but will a deficiency in near vision affect the use of rear tangs?

That works..BTW ingwe said he would personally kick my azz if ever saw a "Buddy" on my Sharps,now you in double trouble my friend!

Being 70+, I can address the vision issue. The tang sight will not be a problem, other than seeing the fine engraved markings. Some are better than others in that regard, too.

The bigger challenge is the front sight, and the compromise necessary to focus on both the target and the sight reasonably well. Depends in part on the type of shooting you're doing. For example, with a black bullseye, you can get away with favoring the front sight, because of the natural centering tendency and black/white contrast. With an irregular shape like a silhouette target, or even more so with game, you may need to be better able to discern the target itself, as distinct from its background.

Paul

The rear tang sight aperture really helps. But whether it will help enough, depends more on you and what you want to do with the rifle. You can put an aperture up front too, though I dislike them for hunting.

Try it and see is about the best advice. Each person is different. And when you try it, actually shoot, don't just sight the rifle and make up your mind. A lot of people can shoot extremely well w/o seeing the target perfectly. You might be surprised at the results if you put the rifle on paper.

Anymore, my targets on the farm are silhouettes in cardboard, or plotted on drafting paper and stapled to a background. Got a regular 300 yard and 120 yard target. Working on clearing a 450 yard.

I enjoy it more if I can get a good group in a kill zone without having a circle or dot to shoot at.

Besides, I don't know if I'll ever have the time to get into competition shooting as long as I still have a 12 year old in the house - not for a while at least.

But I'm always going to be shooting at something to eat or varmints.

12 yr olds are welcome at matches and there are often a special category for juniors. He/she might really like it, and then outshoot ol' dad.

Don't sweat the tang sight and eye thing. This year at the Quigley match, there were something over 30 "white buffalo" shooters, that's the class for shooters 71 and older. Senior class is between 62 and 71.
To add to what Brent said about the junior shooter, I honestly can't think of a much better way to spend time with your kids.

Might be stating the obvious but, depending on your own eyes, this focus business will require consultation with a good eye doc and optician. Best if they understand shooting, but at least be good listeners. Better yet, be willing to let you bring in your rifle. If not possible, at least be prepared with the relevant measurements, especially distance from your eye to the front sight.

Paul

I had some sight picture issues early on with my Sharps but now sorta found my comfort zone and have been strictly shooting off of my front blade.Seems to be much easier this way as my eye auto adjusts and centers for the rear most of the time plus I use the small platform the blade rests on as a ranging tool.The more I shoot the better I like this approach as I'll be in hunting mode most of the time.

I have a Shiloh Sharps. Although I have not fully fell in love with it, I will give you this. It has the finest fit and finish of any production rifle out there today. If not, it certainly is in the running. And mine is an entry level piece with no options or embellishments.

I do not see the Ruger as ugly. One of mine is an S-C, translates to a .45-70 with a 26" barrel with the same contour as the .375. I bought it to use with black and paper patch. That may happen yet, but the leade will have to be recut for that to happen. It is too short. They don't spec out for the steel animal game.

I even have an original rolling block in .43 Mauser that I bought for less than twenty dollars, delivered with two boxes of Dominion ammo, when I was about fifteen years old. Sorry to say, that was sixty years ago. It shoots better than it looks, by a large margin.

I have had a couple of the modern editions of the High Wall. Both the Browning and the Winchester versions. They shot extremely well. One scoped, one with tang sights. They left for reasons other than accuracy. Regrets on the beautiful Browning.

I suppose that I have no brand ( or design) loyalty, as I do not shoot steel. But the Ruger is excluded from the BPCR game- right, wrong, or indifferent.

Why? You can get that animal to shoot paper patch as it is. And probably in more ways than just one. IIRC, Paul Matthews shot a #1 with paper patch quite a bit and w/o mentioning any modifications. Check out his book, "The Paper Jacket" if you really want to give it a try. But anyway, just about any rifle this side of a gas operated semiauto can be made to shoot ppbs.

Try it first, then decide what sort of chambering needs to be done (likely none).

Brent, I don't want to rehash my woes trying paper on the Shiloh ..40-65. Long story short, after buying this paper and that paper to produce the perfect wrap, my best results came with kitchen parchment and (as bad as I hate to admit it) newsprint. Greasers win hands down, but I detest the grime they attract. Likewise, I have a bias against tapered bullets.

I will take your advice with the No. 1. After reversing bullets to check permissible length, I surmised that I was up against another frustration. I'm not a target shooter, beyond load development, and no longer have an interest in competition. I just want to hunt a little, and that requires unloading sometimes. It irritates me to no end when the lightly seated bullet sticks in the lands? Maybe I am expecting too much.

None the less, I'm too old to,sweat the small stuff. I will give it a go! Jack

jt402--You apparently are not doing something right. More specifically, several somethings.

I shoot both paper patched ammo and greasers. I hunt with both. My grease groove ammo does not attract grime or dirt. If yours does, you are not loading it correctly.

As far as paper patched ammo is concerned, I have no problem whatever unloading my rifle and having the bullet stick in the lands. When I remove the unfired cartridge, the paper patched bullet comes out still in the case. You are apparently not loading your paper patched ammo correctly, either. You are not expecting too much, you just have to do it correctly. FWIW, I don't like or use tapered bullets either.

Jack,
I'm sure Bill will be PMing and phoning you about his way of loading hunting bullets but there are several (or more).

If you want to explore it, I'd be happy to tell you what I do and what some others do that works very well. I'm sure something along one of those lines will work for you.

We could discuss it here or feel free to email or PM me. Whatever works for you.

Brent

I will get back to you next week. A hectic weekend is in the works. Clue--three granddaughters till about Wednesday. Thanks, jack

Well...you asked so here goes!

As for Ruger #1s not being used in BPCR it probably stems from the fact that it has NO HISTORICAL background like the M1874 Sharps or Ballard, etc. and a whole helluva lot of guys in BPCR attach a significant portion of their love of BPCR to that aspect! The rifle is damn difficult to adapt to a tang sight, the barrels are usually way to light-weight as is the rifle. Many of the BPCR rifles today are cut with a chamber such that is designed for shooting paper patched bullets and I don't see that taking place at the Ruger factory whereas it can be requested from Shiloh Rifles at a telephone call! I had occasion to pick one up ONCE and put it to my shoulder and the ergonomics just wasn't there....FOR ME and I'm not a midget or lacking in physical stature! I know that the rifles are accurate, depending upon ones definition of that but as to how the Ruger #1 would perform with cast bullets....I can't say! This is as objective a reply as I can render regarding your question.

Personally...my own opinion is that the Ruger #1 is just PLAIN DAMN UGLY!

I'll stick with these:


Giving the Shiloh a workout! by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

I hardly ever comment on one of these threads but I must defend my beloved Ruger #1's I have owned and shot/hunted with them for many years, they are very fine rifles. They are not in the same category as the Sharps, Ballards, Rolling Blocks etc. and were not meant to be. They were developed to bring back a classic single shot hunting rifle to the American public and I believe they have done that in a very fine fashion. They were not meant to be BPCR rifles and were not developed as such. The other rifles serve very well for that, and I own them too.

Rich, I agree with everything you said. They are fine rifles in their place. Their popularity proves that in spades.

I'm swirling the drain too, Ed. Fortunately for my checking account (and Visa)the options are so plentiful that it is difficult to make a final decision on which one I want.

With the guidance of Bill and Jim, I hope to eventually have a sharps in my house too.

The Number 1 is a fine rifle and I think it fills the role you described very well. I hope that Ruger continues to manufacture them for many years to com.e.

I am looking to sell a number of guns to make it happen, but all I have been getting are lowball offers and I don't want to dump them, I'd like to get a fair price.

The economy is not allowing the disposable income I had a few years ago, so selling is the only way to my goal.

I have begun my collection of tools including moulds and handles, but it is a slow process.

The disease is still there, it's just taking longer to get the proper treatment, and whining about it doesn't help.


Ed

BRENT AND SHARPSGUY: Ok gentlemen. I did not timely respond as I said I would. After the kids went home, I have had an " ox in the ditch." I have also misplaced my notes with chamber info on it for the ..40-65 Shiloh. I have no data on the heavy barrel Ruger No. 1. Forget it. I have decided to scope it and use smokeless and commercial bullets of whichever type it likes best. Weight, cast, jacketed, or even patched.

I posted my woes with the Shiloh on their site. With recommended papers, I have one of three problems. The patched bullet will not chamber, the bullet will chamber but usually cannot be unloaded without pulling the bullet, or the seating process will not hold the bullet. None of these is satisfactory for hunting.

Recommendation one was to get a Redding taper crimp die. Did that. No help. The next recommendation was to get a .40 S&W die set and use that die to crimp. That will work, but not well. It is not of sufficient diameter to work without a lot of force, resulting in a pretty firm crimp.

Honestly, I have left this project on the back burner for two years, maybe longer.

I have been using the bullet from a Canadian maker that builds an adjustable mold, courtesy Dean Becker out in the desert west. They seem to measure .399 and weigh about 340 and 375. Best I can tell, my barrel is spot on at .400/.408. Brass is Starline, powder (for now) is Goex FFG. I have tried card wads from waxed milk cartons, vegetable wads and no wads. That for sure is not an option as the powder always dumps if the bullet pulls. I have bought several papers. If it is thick enough,,it doesn't chamber or sticks when inserted. Loaded to seat properly, bullets fall out when handled, other than very carefully. I have not shot paper for accuracy. I don't have function whipped yet.

I have successfully used greasers from BACO, both 370 and 410. I could clean the loaded round enough to eliminate any grime attraction.

What I seem to need is a leade that is longer and perhaps a couple of thousandths larger. Mr. Mulhern mentioned special paper patch chambers. Maybe I need to call Shiloh.

APDDSN0864, Like you,,financials are not as good as they once were. I retired too young, seventeen years ago. Some investment with Enron and GM, took the cost of living away. good thing is we are still OK. I had a rifle on consignment for about three years asking $2000. Best offer I had was $1500. Since there was no financial need to sell, I picked the rifle up a couple of years ago. I sold it last week for $3500. So maybe things are getting better.

One option is to sell the Shiloh and start over with a ..45-70 cut for paper or re barrel. I have a potential buyer. Another is to work the chamber, but only if I can have it factory done or by someone that'll others tell me the craftsman knows his business. Or I can forget the nostalgia and shoot greasers. It isn't an historical buffalo hunt round anyway. One thing I have not mentioned, my brass is nickel plated. Could this add to the "springiness" of the brass? Understand that I am a raw rookie at this game., even if I am an old fart. Jack

Jack, I'm sorry that I could not respond more quickly. I was at a match all weekend, roasting my brains out in the heat and humidity.

I'm sure that by now Bill has called, emailed, PMed and probably twitted you a dozen times, but I'll simply add that your stock Shiloh chamber will shoot paper patches just fine. Some chambers are a little trickier than others, but they can all be made to shoot well, if you spend the time (and sometimes money) to get the job done right. What is currently being called "the paper patch" chamber on the internet today is nothing magic. I have a rifle with that chamber and it shoots fine - but it is hardly the most accurate.

From your description of wads falling out, bullets not fitting in the brass and all the various crimps, etc, I think you have many dimensional issues that, if you get them right, will suddenly go away.

There are many ways to load hunting ammunition in that Shiloh and if you want to make it work I'd be happy to help, and we can start with some simple things like using known components (ie, wads of known dimensions and carefully measured bullets and paper).

I do not use nickeled brass so I can't tell you anything about springiness. However, if your bullets won't chamber, maybe the brass is too thick. Or maybe your bullets with paper added are too thick. But the bottom line, is that you should be able to easily chamber proper bullets from any of a several different recipes for loading. Figuring out where the problem lies simply requires sitting down with a set of calipers and seeing what you are working with.

Where do you want to start?

BTW, what vintage is your Shiloh? Does it say Farmington or Big Timber (with a "B" in the serial number)?

That .399 slug is to big to start with, if you must use that slug then get a thinner paper and seat the bullet deeper.
395 probably a bunch better diameter to go with.
Chamfer the inside of the case mouths.

That dimension is WRONG. The bullets measure .on average .392 and wrap to .399. Should be perfect. More later today.jack

Folks, bear with me, I halve just lost two long posts.

Equipment:
RCBS Shiloh specific .40-65 three die set.
Redding taper crimp die.
RCBS .40 S & W die set.
.392 hollow base bullet reducing to about .389 .570" from base. Wraps to .399, should be perfect.
Helix 100% cotton tracing paper, part #37101.
Also have some BACO blue paper-too thin.
BACO .40 template.
.30 Walters vegetable fiber wads.
Have tried milk carton wads.
Brass is nickel Starline .40-65.
I have formed brass from .45-70 with same results.
I received sixty rounds of PMC 270 grain factory ammo with the gun. This has .406 bullets and I suspect that was the reason the rifle was a lead mine when I got it. I could pull the bullets and use the primers and brass. Never shot any, as the bullets are undersized.

Rifle is about six years old and was made by the Bryans in Big Timber. The finish is perfect and the bore was cleaned to shine like a diamond in a goat's rear end. I bought it used to escape the wait, but it cleaned up to perfect. 30" heavy half. No add ons. Pistol grip, shotgun butt. Shoots about a foot high with a compressed load of Goex FFG, and 370 greasers, no problem, I can fix that.

Thick brass should be an advantage as it would grip the bullet better when taper crimped.

The paper, when wrapped as directed, extends past the .003 reduction, when wrapped to fold the excess into the hollow base. They look like the pictures say they should. I have never tried trimming the wrap to a narrower profile.

I have all distance unlimited calling. PM for or to give a number. I can't think of anything I have omitted.

Jack