This is the famous 45-330 gr Gould Express bullet designed by John Barlow, founder of Ideal. Made for Mr. Gould, editor of Shooting & Fishing. Great reputation as a killer of large game with superior performance in all 45 cal cartridges.

Just received this Lyman #457122 HP mold for a go in my '86 Win 45/90 so I'll be casting soon. Just wondered if any of you have given it a go in the past?



A little history to liven up this forum..

Expansion Properties of Cast Hollow Points

By: Glen E. Fryxell

If a little is good, more is not necessarily better. The Golden Age of Cast Hollow Points was arguably in the 1890s, when they were embraced by the hunting community and established themselves as killers of the first order. The world of ballistics was a rapidly changing pace at that time, and jacketed bullets and ever-higher velocities eventually took over. The end result was that while the attributes of the cast HP were appreciated by a few seasoned hunter-casters, most of the hunting community moved on to whatever the latest whiz-bang that was being promoted by the manufacturers. While that's perfectly understandable, it is also a pity because cast HP’s can be some of the best hunting bullets out there, and they offer the additional advantages of being very affordable and easily made. What's more, once you have the mould you never need to worry about a manufacturer dropping (or changing) your favorite bullet design, and they offer the satisfaction of making your own premium hunting bullets, to your own specifications, with your own two hands. To gain these advantages, one simply needs to understand the cast HP. Let's go back to when it all got started and see what these bullets have to offer...

In the 4th Edition of the Ideal Handbook (published in 1890) there was a short section dedicated to "Express bullets" highlighting the .45 caliber 330 grain Gould bullet (which would later be known as the Ideal 456122 when they started assigning cherry numbers in 1897). This bullet was designed by John Barlow (founder of Ideal) for A. C. Gould (editor of Shooting and Fishing magazine), an avid bullet caster and hunter (also shown was a picture of the .50 Express bullet, although no details were given). The Express Moulds cost $2.50, and came with polished cocobolo handles (all single cavity Ideal moulds had integral handles at this point). The excellent killing properties of the Gould bullet were spelled out in vivid detail. Thus was the beginning of the Golden Age....

By 1897 the following HP moulds were cataloged by Ideal in the 9th Edition of their Handbook (I have included some of the original ad copy to give some insight as to how Ideal thought of each of these bullets):

22638 -- a 60 grain PB-HP for the .22-15-60 Stevens rifle, "It is astonishing how much more deadly this bullet is with a hollow point." (other weights also available)

25727 - a nominal 75 grain (other weights also available) HP for the .25-20 and .25-35 Winchester

31133 -- a 100 grain HP for the .32-20 Winchester, "They increase the killing powers of .32-20 rifles greatly."

31945 -- a 150 grain HP for the .32-40, "They increase the killing power of the rifle greatly for deer, bear, etc."

31953 -- designed by Col. Pickett ("the well-known grizzly bear killer"), a 205 grain paper-patched HP for the .32-40

37577 -- a 235 grain HP for the .38-55, "The .38-55 rifle with express bullets are sure killers of deer and elk."

40090 -- a 165 grain HP for the .38-40 Winchester, "Those who have .38-40 rifles can increase their killing power by 50% by using express bullets."

40393 -- about 330 grain HP for the .40-65, .40-70 and .40-82 Winchesters, "Every person owning one of these rifles should have an express mould as they greatly increase the killing power for larger game."

42499 -- 195 grain HP for the .44-40 "Hunters will find that the killing qualities of their .44-40 rifles are increased 50% by use of this bullet."

446110 -- a 315 grain HP for the .44-77, .44-90 or .44-100 Sharp's cartridges

45115 -- a 325 grain paper-patched HP designed by Col. Pickett

45117 -- a 335 grain HP designed for the .45-70 (this bullet sounds seriously undersized for use in a .45-70 to me...)

456122 -- the Gould bullet, designed by John Barlow for A. C. Gould, the editor of Shooting and Fishing; a 330 grain HP for the .45-70, "It has a great reputation as a killer of large game."

512139 -- a 300 grain HP with a gaping cavity "This is the standard .50 Winchester Express bullet."

Note that John Barlow designed these bullets for rifle cartridges, specifically black powder rifle cartridges, and therein lies the secret to the soul of the cast HP. Generally speaking, these cartridges were loaded with BP to muzzle velocities of 1100-1600 fps (most commonly in the range of 1200-1400 fps), and this is why the cast HP’s worked so well and were so well received by the hunters of the day (men like Col. Pickett and A. C. Gould) -- the guns that they were initially developed for did not over-stress them. Thus, the cast HP delivered excellent expansion and deadly performance on deer, black bear and elk.

Col. Pickett used that bullet in his 45/110 for grizz. he said it made grizz hunting a one shot kill affair. The 330 grain express slug and 110 gr. of C&H powder.

I have not Woody, I'm a heavy bullet retard destined to ride the short bus forever.

I've been in the heavies camp as well Jerry but the nostalgia bug bit after reading how infatuated "The Old Dead Guys" were with this newfangled offering which killed critters with less bullet weight,higher velocities and lighter recoil. I would expect the Gould to be a decent killer of thin skinned varieties out to a few hundred yards + via the lever gun and possibly a tad more from the Sharps if it stabilizes.

You know me well enuf by now I'm not afraid to shell out a few bucks for a new bullet to test,just keeps the old nose on the grindstone and fewer cobwebs out of the belfry !

I hear you Woody, it will be a fun bullet in that '86 45-90 for sure.

On second thought, of all the educationally interesting stories our buddy Sharpsguy has told me, I believe I remember him saying that 330 gr Gould HP was a rough sombeach on deer sized game, iirc he said it tears the hell out of 'em.

I'll be casting soft at 30:1 to prevent the HP nose from mimicking a Booger VLD however..

Good, boog-frag is a very bad thing.

Don't know if I'd have the ballz using a HP on grizz... probably feel more in my comfort zone with good penetration like the Gov't or a big 530gr slick from the Sharps, of course the full mag and fast cycling of the lever gun might be the ultimate game changer.

I believe the old boys used an 18:1 or 20:1 alloy for their "ring balls" aka gg bullets. Pickett said he killed more than 20 grizz with his.

That bullet was designed to take a 22 short cartridge in the nose cavity to initiate expansion on impact.

I've read and researched this bullet extensively and know it was tried but seriously doubt the design concept was conceived to be an exploding bullet.

Woody,

A friend has this mould and when I first started shooting 45-70s, borrowed it from him and cast several hundred of these bullets. I did not, and have not, invested nearly as much time as you have checking out the bona fides of this bullet. I cast them primarily for hunting use, but have never used them for that purpose (I found, and really like the 457193 and have stuck with it). I'm sure I still have some 457122s in my "bullet cache".

Anyhow . . . I did shoot the bullet at steel targets and it shot well for me out to 200 yards - out to 400 yards, it was a hit and miss proposition (more than likely it was the shooter, not the bullet) - beyond 400 yards, it was difficult to zero in on even the largest steel target. I have no doubt it would be a very good, devastating bullet for any NA animal within the proficient ranges of the shooter. Maybe it is time to revisit the load in my lever gun.

Shoot well, my friend, and let us know what your evaluation is.

Otter

Nick, The 193 and 643 have been and will be my primary go to's in the 45/90 lever gun.The 121 PH at 30:1 is a heavy at 482.5 grs and will shoot but its accuracy seems compromised a tad by its length vs twist IMO.

As we all know these big lever guns were't made to shoot over the horizon like our Sharps thus the reason for lighter express bullets.

This is more of an experiment of sorts with some nostalgia thrown in the mix and nothing more although there may be a venison out there which could possibly become a test subject.

Does anyone know a source for purchasing these bullets lubed and relatively soft? Have a Trapdoor and muley does that need thinning. Small acreage muley does, want to be relatively quiet and minimal follow up, love the old guns thinking a 45 soft HP just behind shoulders will do the job.
I reload but dont cast my own.

Not to my knowledge maybe one of the other guys have a source..Depending on how many you want I might be able to fix you up later when I get started..they would be sized and lubed of course..

Shoot me a PM with phone number be glad to talk to you if you like.

There was a fine fella name of Mon Yee in Dodge City, making REALLY good BPCR bullets,...but more importantly PACKING them properly to ship.

Dunno' if he's still in the game.

GTC

Any reading in particular you would suggest? Like you a heavy bullet man but an old Trapdoor and some little does for culling got me interested in a gentler loading.

There are several really good articles but actually the best and most informative I'd recommend can be found in the 2012 66th edition of Gun Digest under the title of "The express bullet in America" by Jim Foral found on pages 75-81... Google 45 cal Gould bullet then click on Gun Digest 66th edition 2012 and the pages will come up in pdf format. Long read but lots of interesting history.

Thats good to know, somewhere in boxes around here i have most of the Guns Digests, ill have to dig it out

These bullets would be interesting too, in the High Wall .45-90...which weighs about 7 1/2 lbs

I tried some of the MPS bullets but the silly things were sized about .455, and shot patterns.

If it's barrel stamped .45-90 Win. than the Gould is on the bullet weight that was SUPPOSED to be loaded into it.
The .45-90 WAS originally designated an "Express", IIRC.

GTC

Not an original Winchester barrel, though...custom 22" 1/2 Octagon. I really should letter the thing at some point, just to learn what it was originally chambered in.

Before you guys go totally overboard about the 340 grain 45 caliber Gould bullet, you need to consider a couple of things. One is that it tears up a lot of meat. Due to massive expansion, it gives up a lot of penetration which disqualifies it as a bullet for big hogs with a thick shield, or bison. Another thing, and this is a biggie, its very short length requires that it be shot out of a 1-20 twist or slower barrel if you expect any kind of accuracy. Check your barrel twist before you drop the bucks for a mold. Just sayin'.

I'll be heading out to deer camp the end of the month to do some work on our house so in addition to tool boxes goes with the electronic caller,the'86 Win 45/90 and Gould bullets over KIK 2..Hopefully the song dogs cooperate.

That bullet LOVES a 22 twist.
Funny how well some 22 twists will handle heavier bullets, and yet the 18 twists will more typically toss lighter slugs sideways.

GTC

Good lord there you target shooters go again with the friggin accuracy thing.....

My Jap '86 has a 20 twist same as the 45/70 and launches the Lyman #193 and #643 without issue so I'm not looking for any surprises with the Gould bullet.At 30:1 it'll be on the heavy side typical of most Lyman molds and probably be around 350 ish I suspect.

That flyin' clay ashtray is gonna make a hella mess Woody.

Maybe so but many posts on several cast bullet forums say its a great deer bullet.. heck my triple 4 with 265 gr Hornady's will knock em out their sneakers and make a mess for lousy shot placements.I'm a heart/lunger always have been, eatin up to the hole ain't a problem in that locale..

I have used it for several years. It is devastating on deer. Shot a nice 9 pointer one year and could shove my fist thru the exit hole. I have very large hands. It will do hogs up to a certain point. My son and I tag teamed on a 400 lb boar in Oklahoma one year. Took 3 shots to the neck to tip him over. When dressing him out we found the pieces. I took a nice boar of 200 or so and it did fine. These were straight wheel weight alloy. 45/70s by the way. That said I'm about out and need to heat up the pot.

10-fo Buddy, hammer the hell outta 'em.

Want to see that bullet REALLY expand ?

Secure a common BB into its' nose,...All I had was some Permatex gasket shellac when I did that,...That setup was just like a bomb on feral dogs.

.45s ARE fun with lighter bullets,...

Heavier bullets ain't bad, when driven at sane velocities, either.

GTC

It's a bomb on feral dogs without the BB too.

Greg,Bill..We don't have many feral hogs up this way but I've been practicing on song dogs the last few years with the Sharps.

The big PP slicks or greasers don't do much but hole in and hole out and usually won't stop em in their tracks unless head or spine shot however the BB in the HP sounds dastardly devastating. Will load some both ways for the trial run.

Filling that cavity with "P-Tex" ski base repair plastic, or just common epoxy kicks the chit out of expansion ratios too.

Hell, try cutting "Dum Dum" grooves into it,....you can than hear it whistle on it's way down range.

You'll not be HITTING anything, but if you want to freak out your fellow shooters,...drill a hole through the front of a bullet,.....they'll land in the general vicinity of where your barrel's pointed,.....and make a blood curdling shriek, so doing.

Screamers,....hard on morale, back in the day, funnier than hell now.

GTC

A young lad [first time deer hunter] in our group is already freaked standing downrange listening to the humming bird whine of the incoming Sharps, think he needs discovered to those "screamers".. That'll be worth a video later!

I believe it was Giuseppe Garibaldi II , who instructed his blacksmiths to spool up pieces of pipe with holes in em' that fit the Muzzle Loading Cannon he commanded during the Mexican Revolution.

Guess the stuff was an honest to God "Terror Weapon" and the unfortunates whose heads these ghastly infernal machines were tossed over HAD been eating frijoles and drinkin' bad water,.....

Jeez those musta' been smelly events.

GTC

Cannon cockers in Vietnam would take an empty B-2 unit can, punch holes around top and bottom with a B-52 (church key) and fit it over the fuse of an 8" or 155mm projectile. HOLYSCHIDTSKI was that a horror to hear The gooks wuzn't too wild about 'em either.

I vividly remember the unnerving sound of incoming 122's..

Ran the first batch of the Gould bullet yesterday at 30:1 not exactly happy with the results.One half of the Lyman mold cavity is rough leaving ridges even ran a small test batch at 20:1 thinking they might fill out better but no such luck.My original guessed weight was approaching 350 grs but they drop a constant 343 grs and mic .4575

Encountered this before, usually some good old tooth paste via cotton swab and elbow grease takes care of bizz.

Normally run all my BPCR bullets at 650-675 degrees but this HP needs extra heat and seems to want to behave around 720 without frosting..won't scrap these but use them for some of Greg's "screamers" later..

Spent an hour this afternoon carefully polishing the mold cavities via the generic Dremel which I use for the tough jobs. Cleaned it up,gave it a good carbon dousing and ran another batch of 30:1. Bullet Weight and diameter still constant..Kept the nose pin hot beside the pot this session which made a much nicer HP..

An update FWIW..The new mold throws a smaller dia bullet than I'd care to entertain via smokeless or BP substitute.They mike an average .456 but bump up OK with BP.First load testing shows a preference for 85 grs Of 2F out of the 45/110.Haven't had the chrono out yet but will on the next go round.Accuracy is better at 100yds than I anticipated if I do my part.The '86 Winchester 45/90 is up next for a go.

Contacted Lyman they said send it back with a few bullets..not holding my breath whether they'll replace it and doubt a new mold is much better,,we'll see.

They will bump up just fine with smokeless or the subs, both run more pressure than bp, and the pressure is what causes the bullet to "bump" up..

We're going to find out next week via BH-209 loads for the 45/90 lever gun..The mold is inbound to Lyman for their inspection and or replacement.

Unfortunately undersized moulds seems to be a regular thing with Lyman. I hope it works out for you.

In case you are not aware over at the Castboolits site there have been a number of group buys for HP moulds in all sorts of calibers, including 45 and 50 cal. There have even been 45 cal Gould style in plain base and GC styles. The only downside is that timing is out of your hands. There are also specialists who can alter an existing mould to accept a HP pin (depending on the mould's design).

When making HP bullets I found it easier to make them without so many rejects by bumping up the casting temp and ladle pouring.