I really like my 06 Dodge Cummins diesel quad cab, but there's just not enough room in the back seat for trips with the whole fam. I don't tow enough to justify a diesel but do need a 3/4 ton to tow the camper. So I'm seriously considering selling it off next year and getting something with a bigger back seat. I've been happy and frustrated with all three manufacturers in my life so really don't have any brand loyalty. I'm thinking 2010 or newer but doubt I'll buy new, I'm too rough on my trucks to buy new and still sleep at night.

I'm leaning toward the Dodge hemi in their crew cab since they did away with the quad cab. I don't need their mega cab room. But I'm going to look at GMs and Fords too. I'm not in a big rush, but my family will wonder what's wrong if I don't research it to death.

Any opinions?

I'm not a huge fan of Ram trucks,but I think the 6.4 would be sweet.

6.4 looks cool but check out this website first. Not quite sure what was wrong with the 6.4, but it is a bit disturbing.

6.4 test

If you like the Dodge/Cummins, find another one with bigger cab. It's nuts to get a 3/4 ton crew cab with gas engine. You don't need to tow much with it for diesel to make sense. And when you do tow it's a whole nicer with torque. My diesel is driven every day and very seldom used for towing, and I'd never consider trading it for a gas engine. No matter what brand, gas won't get near the mileage of a diesel and it sure's h#ll won't have near the power.

^ I sort of agree. With any anything short of local towing, a diesel makes sense. If you don't tow you don't need a diesel.

Cons:
Diesel costs more up front.
Fuel is quite a bit more.
Newer diesels don't get the phenomenal mileage older ones do.
Maintenance is just a little bit more.
Repairs can be a lot more.

Pro:
You get most/all/more than all of the increased cost back at resale.
Power
Power
Power (especially at low RPM's)
Durability (but the rest of the truck can fall apart around the drivetrain)

I have a 2011 duramax. Gobs of power, but there are some issues. I suffer from fairly frequent regen's, which lower daily driving MPG to around 14.5. A gasser getting 11 MPG would be cheaper on fuel.

There is a fuel pump (CP4) that the big three use that is known to grenade at fairly low mileage. Some folks report it as early as 50,000 miles. It costs $13,000 or so to fix. I'll say that again. It costs $13,000 to fix. The pump is expensive and in the valley of the engine, and when it goes it sends metal through EVERYTHING fuel touches. All the rails, injectors need to be removed and replaced when the pump goes. You could buy a new gas engine and tranny for $13,000. The pump is made by Bosch and is not rated by Bosch to be run on the crappy SCAR rating U.S. ULSD gets. The big three run the pump anyway.

If I only towed locally, I would get a gasser. I tow maybe 4,000 miles a year, and a decent amount of it is at altitude and on grades. I have still considered switching to a gasser next go around (until I watch videos like the one I posted).

Cummins is NOT using the CP4. They are still using the more reliable CP3. Just FYI.

I had a Chevy 3/4 ton 08 with the 6L gas engine and my buddy had a Ram 06 1/2ton with a hemi. We got very similar mileage towing the same trailer but my 3/4 was more stable. You couldn't use cruise control at all. We both bought diesels, me a Chevy, him a Ram and both are very happy! Look for a newer used diesel!

Good to know. I have never owned a Ram but the CP3 is better than the CP4 in that it doesn't send metal through the fuel system when it fails. Some Duramax guys are converting to the CP3 with a kit, but it is pretty expensive.

Thanks, all. Good info. I didn't know about the fuel pump. That video of the Dodge vs. GM is pretty telling. Based on the comments, it seems like there is a little question about how the driver ran the test. But apples to apples, it makes the Dodge look horrible.

Please keep the comments coming! I do like the power of all the diesels, I just don't think I tow enough (5-6 times/year) to justify the cost.

sd

Yep, I really want to like the big Hemi, but it seems like they maybe have the wrong gear ratios paired with it. Forget about how many times you tow, how many total miles per year, what type and weight of trailer, and in what terrain (mountains, flats, altitude)?

A few comments........

Forget about "need"......towing or not, If you like the power of a diesel is all that matters. No way a gas engine will make diesel power at a useable rpm. And no way will a gas engine be as economical under load. Your comment about the truck falling apart around the drivetrain.......diesel and gas trucks are the same except for the engine, a diesel engine under the hood won't make it fall apart any sooner.

That first gen CP4 isn't as good as the CP3 but you're making a bigger deal out of it than it is. (And btw, Ford and VW also use the CP4, not Dodge) You hear about the failures but there are tons of them out there with no problems. One friend works in a big diesel shop and LML's come in very seldom for an injector pump, and of those that fail most are on warranty. It's a hassle taking one out but some guys have switched to a CP3. Today's ultra low sulfur doesn't lubricate well and a fuel additive takes care of the problem. Simple. I don't care for the new body style but that CP4 pump wouldn't keep me from buying one. Also a Fass or Airdog is something to definitely use.......I lost a set of injectors to some real bad fuel and have been with a lift pump/separator ever since.

The urea schit will keep me from ever buying a new diesel anything.

Urea is the least bothersome thing about a new diesel. Regens are the most bothersome thing

Is the regen where the engine speeds up to clean the exhaust out? I know the Fords had the schit, didn't know they all did now. Sweet Jesus, phouc that.

My 2014 Ram has done it a few times that I'm aware of. Only symptom is a strong smell at idle and increased fuel consumption. It may have done it going down the road but Ive not been aware of it. No change in driving behavior at all.

Regen is where raw diesel is injected into the DPF to burn off the soot. From what I have read, early versions injected diesel into the exhaust stroke, but that caused trouble with cylinder wall washing. The newer Duramax has a 9th injector to inject diesel directly into the filter (don't know but I think the others are the same now). The idle is sped up at a stop to assist in keeping the DPF temps high. You won't notice a regen on the open road. You can notice one in town due to the higher idle. The big pisser is it uses more fuel and hurt mileage. It is a pisser but it's the EPA price you have to pay to get 400hp/800 torque from the factory.

Must be a GM thing. No elevated idle on the Cummins, just the strong odor.

Do you need a pickup, or could you get by with a Suburban/SUV and a trailer for when you need an open box? A Suburban, Expedition or Navigator would be much more comfortable for the family.

I'm a GM tech for a living. There is not a new diesel I would own. If its not needed for work there is no reason own a diesel. Maintenance and repair costs are too high. And they are less reliable than the gassers. You wont beat the newer GM trucks for reliability.

I'm sure gas will go back up again soon, but here, gas is $2.46 and diesel is $3.59. That's 46% higher!!

No way you're gonna get that diesel power out of a gasser, but there's no way you're going to get 46% better mileage out of the diesel (not current ones), either.

The honest truth is that you might get 14-15mpg hwy from a gasser, and you might get 17-18mpg out of a diesel.

Fifteen years ago, you'd do good to get 150k miles out of a gas engine. There's plenty that'll do 200-250k these days. Yes, a diesel CAN do more, but not without dropping a few thousand on injectors/lift pumps/etc.

I don't think longevity of a diesel is as much of a selling point, anymore (at least, not like it used to be), vs. the gas. I don't think mileage is, either (not unless the prices of gas and diesel equalize). Resale?? You get more from the diesel, but you pay more, too, so I'd say that could be debated.

I'd say the real determinant is whether or not you're towing 10,000 lbs or more (and doing it frequently). Once you get above that, the power differences are much more obvious. You'll be revving the heck out of the gasser, while that diesel just chugs along.

Stripper Ford gasser 4x4 crew cabs can be found here for $32-$33k. The stripper diesels start at $44k. Not for sure about the Dodge's, but I bet the price difference is similar.

if I was looking for a new gas 3/4 ton I'd be looking very hard at the Hemi/Dodge...early reports have the highway milege way better than the other brands , and the engine is designed for the torque to hang on at much lower rpms than the others

I wouldn't put much stock in that towing *test* mentioned no one in the real world drag races their pickup uphill with a loaded trailer

what I want to know is how well the engine lugs in high gear when climbing a hill at highway speed , or maybe if you drop one gear or 2 on a real big hill

having been around a number of 6 liter Chevys I can say they suck in that respect , even on a modest hill with a 4 horse trailer you will be in second gear with the motor screaming at five grand

supposedly the 6.2 Ford likes a lot of rpm s too

I don't want emissions crap on mine, but urea isn't a bad thing. Diesels are big in European sedans and for years they've had urea systems. Dodge/Cummins didn't have urea and had to pass emissions by going into the tuning map, that's why they were down on power compared to the others. Urea cleans the exhaust after it's left the engine and he tune can be left where it should be for power. It's a good thing. But nobody's forcing anyone to like it.

In the real world, starting on hill pulling a loaded trailer or even not towing, it's nice to have power. Even more so at altitude where you really feel it. No matter what it is, a gas engine will drop gears on mountain grades. Diesels are turbo and don't even feel either grade or altitude. No gas truck will have anywhere near the power of a diesel where it's useable, about the 1800-2200rpm range.

not quite true that no gasser ever had power at 2000 rpm the old 454 and 460 were quite good in that respect , and the later v-10 s by Dodge and Ford were OK too

but I'll grant you those motors didn't have the pull of these late model diesels , nor are they near as good at altitude

V10 Fords are the most gutless engines as far as cubic inches I've ever driven. mtmuley

Love my 460 but my wallet sure doesn't!!

Did you watch the test? It wasn't much of a drag race as the big Hemi wouldn't get out of first gear. So...how well does it lug? Not well. I agree a screaming high rpm engine is no fun to drive up a hill, but the Ram wouldn't even give you the option, it was stuck in first at 30 mph or a bit less up the entire hill. If the Chevy 6 liters suck, than the big Hemi sucks more.

It's a pisser as I want to like the 6.4 Hemi. I've never owned a 6 liter chevy and probably won't, so I'm not sure what's left on the gas front. Maybe they will figure out the right gear ratios for the Hemi in the future.

Might not be being force to like it, but being forced to have it on any new truck you buy. One more phoucing thing to go wrong, one more thing to make sure you have topped off or else you are SOL. I'm not a fan of this any more than I am of the [bleep] traction control they put on them.

If you run out of DEF,you're an idiot. At 1000 miles remaining you start getting a warning to dump more in. Its about as difficult as adding windshield washer fluid.

Traction control is defeated with a push of a button.

Those big block gas engines have some power, for gasoline, and for non-diesel guys they probable seem pretty good. They're also very thirsty.

My neighbor has 30-something foot trailer with popouts everywhere and tows it all over the place. He had a 460 Ford and thought it was a real powerhouse. It was also a terrible gas hog even not towing. I took him for a ride in my Dmax and did a launch on the medium tune, scared the crap out of him. The engine's been tweaked a little. That opened his eyes about diesels. So a few years ago he got an '06 Chev. diesel and still raves about it, can't believe the difference. Says it tows so much better there's no comparison, and gets way better mileage. The guy's a total convert now.

agree those old big blocks are very thirsty , and they won't pull with 400 HP diesels , but they were good workhorses for their day,


I don't think putting the rig in drive , switching on the tow haul button and floorboarding the go pedal is much of a test or even a very intelligent way to drive a loaded auto tranny pickup truck

here' s another view of the 6.4 Hemi in more of a real world situation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji9I_hmZ88Y

here's also a thread discussing I think the same truck and driver

http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/4...scussion/1095146-6-4l-hemi-tow-test.html

Exactly......when the truck is serviced it gets DEF, big deal. If the warning goes on before that, you add some. Doesn't take a genius to do that. Same with a traction control button.

If you both believe that traction control is "defeated" with the push of a button you're either retarded, or clueless. It's effect is lessened with the push of a button, but it doesn't go away.

DEF is expensive........
I think that is one reason pre DEF diesel P/U are holding their value so well.
Plus the older ones got better mileage.
Unless I found a cream puff, low mileage, non-DEF, used diesel P/U for a reasonable price, I don't see a diesel pickup in my future.

It is defeat able, at least on my truck, but in 4WD only. Have to hold the button down for 5 seconds and then it will show "ESC Disabled" on the dash. We were climbing up steep snow covered washes yesterday and it works as advertised. 4WD HIGH with ESC disabled allowed sufficient speed to get through the snow drifts.

I pay $8.99 for a 2.5 gal jug of DEF fluid. My truck will about 4,000 miles on 2.5 gallons. I'm not going to sit here and do the math for you but that's not very expensive at all.

And my 2013 powerstroke gets the same, actually slightly better fuel mileage, than my 05 Dodge Cummins did.....

And FWIW, I don't like the DEF thing any better than anyone else, I would prefer that none of them have it.

But after actually owning one that uses DEF I figured out its not near as big a deal as its made out to be, which is usually by people that don't own one.....

I can only go off my own personal experience. My own personal 2012 Power Wagon, and numerous GM vehicles I've driven (tahoes and 2500s) it absolutely does not turn off. The message comes on saying it has been, but it's bullschit.

Over the past 50,000 miles I have spent less than $200 on DEF.

DEF sucks not because it is expensive (it is not). DEF sucks because it is mandated by the EPA and is otherwise not needed. In fact, the truck runs just fine without it so .gov made the manufacturers institute all sorts of intrusive mechanisms to force you to refil it.

If it runs out it will limit your speed.
If the fluid is poor, it will limit your speed.
If a sensor is bad, it will limit your speed.

This is why DEF sucks.

That's way cheaper.
You guys buying it in bulk?..

$12 for 2.5 gallons at Wal Mart. I have bought maybe 15 boxes (probably less)., so $180 or so. My DEF MPG is right at 1% of fuel used.

(50,000 miles/15 MPG)*0.01=33.33 gallons of DEF, or a bit more than 13 boxes.

It does have a shelf life. Hope you're using it fast enough.

I hear you, but holding the button in mine until the message displays ( not just the idiot light) seemed to do it, judging by the rooster tails and crap flying everywhere behind me. Had to nail WOT a few times to get enough speed up to get through the drifts. My inter cooler and Trans cooler were pretty packed with snow afterward so I'm guessing the drifts were 2 feet plus deep.

Tractor Supply here has it for 8.99

I don't buy 15 boxes at once. When the truck tells me I need it, I buy it and add it to the truck.

Wait till your warranty is up and you have to start repairing that DEF system. Hope you have deep pockets. The DEF system is the worst most problematic system on any vehicle today.

Ok, so I figured what the hell I'll try it again. Still haven't figured out why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but if I hold in the button I do get the message. Sometimes. Haven't tried it yet to see how much it's mitigated, but if it well and truly turns it off my hat is off to you sir!

THat is specifically on my '12 PW. On the Chevy's I have absolutely held the button, in all ways, means, opportunities. Never ever had the traction control NOT kick in at some point.

Another thing on my PW, I love the fact that you can turn the headlights off. Like OFF. And when you start the truck you don't have to turn them off again.

Look for a 03-04 Chevy 3/4 ton with the 8.1

Yes that would suck.

What exactly happened to yours?

Only works on mine in 4WD.

All the new electronic chit is especially bullchit, that and of course the EPA mandated horsechit.

I don't have the money or need for a new pickup in the first place but EVERYONE I have talked to hates the traction control.

I guess it resets itself to 'on' every time the pickup is started?

You forget to disable and get stuck kind of deal.



Oh, and whatever you do don't dump the urea in your fuel tank and cycle it through the engine(when it's cold outside, it'll freeze and crack all your chit...).

Couple horror stories at the Ford garage about that little mix up. Parts manager told me enough people have done it that Ford now makes a repair kit.

About a $10k repair with labor.



Just got my wife's Explorer back from the shop. Fancy touch screen went dead after an update. Still drivable but damn they have over 'engineered' these new vehicles. I don't want a god damn smart phone style control to run the frikken heater for Christ's sake!
(rant over......grin)


I plan on driving my '03 6.0 F350 until it literally dies.

4 new injectors in the clunker this Fall and it once again has balls.

It's all bullchit dude.

I plan on running my 06 Chev 1/2 ton Z71 till it falls to pieces. No traction control, or other bs. Been a good truck too.

I think I figured out how to turn that schit off on the PW, but you have to be in 4wd as Badger said, and you have to be either stopped, or just barrrreeeeellllly rolling. And yeah, turn the truck of and you have to remember to do it all over again. At least the 4wd is a lever, not a damn button.

Lever on floor and manual hubs rule.....





Unless you forget to turn the hubs out and roll 75mph and blow the front pinion seal out. Takes multiple attempts but it happens....grin


Oil all over, easy to spot.

If I press and hold the TC button on my '11 duramax, it takes both TC and Stabilitrac off. After reading this thread I took it off on a wet road and got seriously sideways with both back tires spinning like mad. I did not detect any computer intervention. Could you guys be experiencing the torque management kicking in? This is different than TC. Torque management is what prevents you from stressing or damaging your transmission from too much torque.

BGG, your Power Wagon has a limited slip in the rear axle that works when the axle is not locked up. Perhaps that's why it's confusing ?
What I notice on on my 2014 Jeep Wrangler is that with the TC on, the rear wheels don't spin much in soft sand. With it off, with the limited slip mine has, both of them can spin a good bit in soft sand. E

Not confused in the least E. I've driven a lot of different vehicles over the years in mud/snow/ice/sand. I can tell when and which wheel is spinning and when the breaks are being applied and match that to what I am telling the damn thing to do and let you know if the 'puter is being bothersome. Last year model of Chev I drove is probably an 09 or 10. No way no how did the electronic nanny shut off no matter what the dashboard tells you.

It seems as though, thanks to Badger, I did find the trick on the PW. Just wish at the very least you could shut it off in 2wd as well as 4wd. Skid control of any fashion on any pickup let alone a PW is phoucing retarded beyond my ability to put to words.