Gents

'Been reading up on this wolf thing. Lots of stories of domestic canines getting et up by wolves. Is there a domestic dog breed that is capable of holding its own against wolves or is any domesitc canine likely to be so outnumbered that it has no chance? Personally, I like a Presa Canario's chances, but sure would not want that breed for a pet.


Thanks,


Jordan

That's a fairly open-ended question, and depends a lot on what you mean by "hold its own". My 70-lb chocolate Lab held her own long enough to get rescued by my wife, but it cost $4000 in vet bills to repair her. (The wolf in question now lives in my shop...well, OK...his hide hangs there.)

Most dogs capable of taking on a grown, wild wolf on their own might not make the best of pets, regardless of breed. Komondors were bred to defend flocks of sheep against European wolf predation, but I'm not too sure how well that would work with our wolves, which regularly eat full-grown moose.

Best defense is to keep the dog inside unless you or some other armed person is with it. Then you can modify the behavior and genetics of the wolf population over time. Assuming such intervention is legal on your part, of course.

Ain't there such a dog as is called an Irish wolf hound???

I don't know doodly squat about wolves and don't want to know first hand either but if they operate anything like coyotes a dog no matter how mean and tough he is ain't got a Chinamans chance.

One coyote (wolf??) will lure a dog out and then the pack will jump it.

Do wolfs operate that way?


BCR

Hate to say it but IIRC the Irish wolfhound today is a recreation of what folks think the original may have been like, nowadays bred docile and prone to confirmation problems. Although I have heard of wolfhound mixes being used to run coyotes.

Folks around here would swear by pit bulls, and I have seen some massive examples with heads like platters. Jack London, who had a first hand familiarity with both dogs and wolves, has a "bulldog" almost killing his otherwise unbeaten wolf-dog in "White Fang".

Stands to reason I expect, if one wants a dog for fighting wolves, it might make sense to get a fighting dog.

Well bred, well raised pits are famously docile around humans (think "Petey" on "The Little Rascals"), I dunno if the same is true of them foriegn fighting breeds like dogos and filas.

Birdwatcher

I don't live in wolf country, but I don't think any dog could defend himself against 3 or more wolves if they decided they wanted dog meat for supper. One on one, a pit bull from good stock would be hard to beat. My uncle had one that was attacked by coyotes while he was on a chain. He wasn't hurt too bad, but after his cuts healed he was hell on coyotes. I've seen a pit bull with his guts dragging the ground hold a wild hog down. But against a pack of wolves, he's supper just like anything else.

I would say that a pit or Akita could hold its own against a wolf.......Blake

I'd give the big white sheep dogs (i.e. Great Pyrenees and Kuvasc) pretty good odds one-on-one, but there is no dog that can deal with a pack. Once a pit bull has his mouth full, he's defenseless. JMO, Dutch.

Some folks that I work with in south-central Idaho that run sheep have had at least one of their guard dogs (a Great Pyrenees) killed by wolves. They have been using these dogs for the last five years and run a lot of sheep bands over more than 600,000 acres. So far, it qualifies as an isolated occurrence.

Rob,

The key phrase in your question is "domestic dog", which makes the answer: Nope

In a nutshell, you're looking for a 150-pound dog that doesn't actually fight - it kills. A domestic dog has been genetically tweaked to be biddable - you can modify or condition the dog's behavior to suit a task. The most important characteristic to breed out of dog is the instinct to kill, and breeders have been very successful at it.

Wolves are wired to kill from the start - their survival depends on it and they have all the physical tools to be very good at it. A domestic dog that encounters a wolf will, at its most aggressive, try to establish dominance or run the wolf off. A wolf comes to the encounter to kill the dog - just as it will kill another wolf that has infringed on its territory.

Birdwatcher mentioned White Fang, there's also a part in the story where where a collie owner suggests that the collie and White Fang fight out their differences, after which they'll be friends. White Fang's master responds that the collie will be dead "inside one minute - two minutes at the farthest."

Humans call it "mindset", but in wolves it's the much more powerful "instinct". Give the same instincts, every fight we get into would end in a death - that's the goal from the start. An act of submission just makes it easier for for one to kill the other.

I have the worlds most placid dog. It is a 65 pound Akita bitch. I was walking her in the Rockies a couple of years back and was attacked by two dogs at about 40-50 pounds each.

The Akita simply and without a sound, moved between me and the dogs and waited until the attacking dogs were about 4 feet away and in full run. She turned on them both with the most savage attack and growling I ever heard.

The attackers are still running. My pooch went back to being the most placid dog I ever saw. I'd have another.

AGW

I own purebred Rottweilers, from the finest German stock, one is 120 lbs. and one is 160 lbs, these dogs are rocksolid muscle, fearless and will fight each other to the death, if allowed to do so. I have never, in just over 50 years since I got my first dog, seen stronger, braver, tougher domestic dogs...or more loyal, loving/lovable cuddlers, either.

I have lived alone in northern BC and Alberta wilderness for months on end and seen Wolves firsthand as well as their kills. While a single Wolf or even a pair can often be afraid of domestic dogs, NO dog will survive a battle with Wolves. In an encounter between a full grown male Wolf and one of my Rottweilers, I am certain that the Wolf would prevail due to better wind, a Rott's weak point; however, a big tough Rott. or similar dog would give a Wolf a good fight, especially my 120 lb. "Axel" in his younger days, fast, fearless and able to sustain savage damage while cheerfully grinning and fighting like the wonderful protector he is.

Dogos and Filas are NOT "fighting breeds", they are for hunting boars, escaped slaves and so forth, but, even they would not usually survive a Wolf encounter as Wolves don't "fight fair". No dog is going to schitkick a number of Wolves, it just ain't a "fair fight".

Kutenay,

I think there would be a dead Rott in very short order. The outcome might be very different if "heart" was a factor.

In addition to an adult male wolf's instincts and tools, they are also very intelligent - nothing you don't know already know. The wolf has refined his killing skills and techniques on some very large critters and quite likely other wolves. A great athlete, such as a pro-bowl linebacker, is going to get his livin' azz kicked by a journeyman professional fighter.

If the professional fighter is genetically wired to kill, and has years of experience killing, things are going to get bloody real quick.

I would like to see a couple male Rhodesian Ridgeback, African Lion Hounds, mix it up with a wolf. They are a beautiful and fearless breed.

Oh the fight's fair enough, it's the rules of engagement the domestic dog doesn't understand! The domestic dog is not fighting because it want's to eat,,, the wolf is!

Rott's,Ridgebacks and Akita's may do great in a fight with DOMESTICATED breeds but against Canis Lupus they are simply out of their league!
Check these out and then rethink your premiss of domestic-dog vs timber-wolf(and that don't mean any yote)!
Mike

Them ain't small...

YUP! Best anti wolf doggie! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Even if there was a dog breed that could stand up to a wolf most wouldn't have one.

My 30 lb heeler will jump into the middle of a cow or bull's face and bite their nose if she has to, in order to turn them. She can also be quite intimidating to adults. She'll also allow my 3 year old daughter to climb all over her. Most folks around me have dogs that will do the same. None of them would last 5 seconds with one adult wolf.

My akita goes about 135 and is all muscle, while he may not kill a wolf. I garuntee he would give a single wolf all he wanted. Dogs are funny creatures they can be the most loving thing in the world one minute and turn into Godzilla the next. Any animal that thinks you are trying to hurt it is going to fight to stay alive just like a wolf would.........Blake

Very interesting!I know some local Bear hunters that take choose to take one Airedale with the rest of there spendy dogs, because of there aggressiveness and willingness to fight..The problem with any domestic animal fighting a wolf is,jaw/bite power.Not even close...

In my mind the closest thing, could only be a pit bull.Get a hold and never let go like the submission hold that little fighters beat big fighters with.

The likelihood of owning enough pets to whup up on a Wolf pack is non-existent. You may only see one but whats behind tree number two?There not dumb and take on all comers over food.

There is a picture at the local pawn shop of a pack of wolves taking on a black bear near Elk City.

Jayco

Very interesting!I know some local Bear hunters that choose to take one Airedale with the rest of there spendy dogs, because of there aggressiveness and willingness to fight..The problem with any domestic animal fighting a wolf is,jaw/bite power.Not even close...

In my mind the closest thing, could only be a pit bull.Get a hold and never let go like the submission hold that little fighters beat big fighters with.

The likelihood of owning enough pets to whup up on a Wolf pack is non-existent. You may only see one but whats behind tree number two?There not dumb and take on all comers over food.

There is a picture at the local pawn shop of a pack of wolves taking on a black bear near Elk City.

Jayco

Very interesting!I know some local Bear hunters that choose to take one Airedale with the rest of there spendy dogs, because of there aggressiveness and willingness to fight..The problem with any domestic animal fighting a wolf is,jaw/bite power.Not even close...

In my mind the closest thing, could only be a pit bull.Get a hold and never let go like the submission hold that little fighters beat big fighters with.

The likelihood of owning enough pets to whup up on a Wolf pack is non-existent. You may only see one but whats behind tree number two?There not dumb and take on all comers over food.

There is a picture at the local pawn shop of a pack of wolves taking on a black bear near Elk City.

Jayco

have been thinking about this some more, wolves are tough critters but they don't hold a candle to a wolverine. I would say a wolverine could chase off at least one or two woofs. And he would weigh half as much as an adult male woof...........Blake

Come on, I saw 11 Wolverines get their butts kicked by a bunch of Buckeyes.

Gotta agree,but..Yes they say pound for pound the Wolverine is the toughest animal in the woods,but they also work by themselves, like the Bear and Couger, but unlike the Wolf, who works in cadence with others,naturally.

Safety in numbers comes to mind yet I haven't seen anyone willing to train Wolverines as pets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jayco

Just find a dog that is big, fast, powerful, and smart, has amazing endurance, and has to kill for every meal it gets in its entire life.
Start there and hope to get lucky

Good luck!!!!

Jayco

Black Russian Terrier --- very interesting and the larger specimens 140lbs would be my choice very impressive dog. I am an Airedale guy and some strains of the breed are about 90 lbs and in groups were used to track and kill wounded lions in the day.

I made the mistake of trying to force one of my Malamute/ Trundra Wolf hybreds to give up a hunk of venison I had given him. Wasn't hard for him to bury those teeth in my arm

Wolverines may arguably be the toughest critter FOR ITS SIZE, but they aren't all that big.

The idea that they'd back down a grizz is fairy tale stuff and after watching a ranch dog (some sort of Walker mix) wear down and kill a couple badgers, I'd doubt a wolverines chances against a single, determined wolf.

"A" dog of any one of several breeds might stand a chance against "a" particular wolf, but generally speaking there isn't a dog breed out there that will consistantly do the job. Make it two or more wolves??? Not a chance.

One on one there are domestic dogs that can take on a wolf and whip it.

Ridgebacks, American bull dogs, Dago,dogo's ect. Take
4 Argentine Dago's on 4 wolves and there will be 4 dead wolves.

To say a wolf has more crunch power than a domestic dog has been proven to be a fallacy. There is not difference.

Irish and Russian wolf hounds of old were capable of running down a wolf and killing it. At times they would run these hounds in packs to match the wolf packs. No match, the hounds would kill them.

From The Wilderness Hunter by Teddy Roosevelt:

"The wolf is one of the animals which can only be hunted successfully with dogs. Most dogs however do not take at all kindly to the pursuit. A wolf is a terrible fighter. He will decimate a pack of hounds by rabid snaps with his giant jaws while suffering little damage himself; nor are the ordinary big dogs, supposed to be fighting dogs, able to tackle him without special training. I have known one wolf to kill a bulldog which had rushed at it with a single snap, while another which had entered the yard of a Montana ranch house slew in quick succession both the large mastiffs by which it had been assailed. The immense agility and ferocity of the wild beast, the terrible snap of his long-toothed jaws, and the admirable training in which he always is, give him a great advantage over fat, small-toothed, smooth-skinned dogs, even though they nominally are supposed to belong to the fighting classes. ���..A mastiff, if properly trained and of sufficient size, might possibly be able to meet a young or undersized Texan wolf; but I have never seen a dog of this variety that I would esteem a match single-handed for one of the huge timber wolves of western Montana. Even if the dog was the heavier of the two, his teeth and claws would be very much smaller and weaker and his hide less tough. Indeed I have known but one dog which single-handed encountered and slew a wolf; this was the large vicious mongrel whose feats are recorded in my Hunting Trips of a Ranchman ."
"General Marcy of the United States Army informed me that he had once chased a huge wolf which had gotten away with a small trap on its foot. It was, I believe, in Wisconsin, and he had twenty or thirty hounds with him, but they were entirely untrained to wolf hunting, and proved unable to stop the crippled beast. Few of them would attack it at all, and those that did went at it singly and with a certain hesitation, and so each in turn was disabled with a single terrible snap, and left bleeding on the snow����"
"The true way to kill wolves, however, is to hunt them with greyhounds on the great plains. Nothing more exiting than this sport can be imagined. ���.Prize-winning dogs of high pedigree often prove useless for the purposes. If by careful choice, however, a ranchman can get together a pack composed both of the smooth-haired greyhound and rough-haired Scotch deer-hound, he can have excellent sport. The greyhounds sometimes do best if they have a slight cross of bulldog in their veins, but this is not necessary. If once a greyhound can be fairly entered to the sport and acquires confidence, then its wonderful agility, its sinewy strength and speed, and the terrible snap with which its jaws come together, render it a most formidable assailant. Nothing can possibly exceed the gallantry with which good greyhounds, with their blood up, fling themselves upon a wolf or any other foe. There does not exist, and there never has existed on the wide earth, a more perfect type of dauntless courage than such a hound. Not Cushing when he steered his little launch through the black night against the great ram Albemarle, not Custer dashing into the valley of the Rosebud to die with all his men, not Farragut himself lashed in the rigging of the Hartford as she forged past the forts���"
"Judge Yancy Stump���..Old Man Prindle��.. They were exceeding fond of hunting with hounds. The judge had three or four track hounds, and four of what he called swift hounds, the latter including one pure-bred bitch of wonderful speed and temper, a dun-colored yelping animal which was a cross between a greyhound and a fox-hound, and two others that were crosses between a greyhound and a wire-haired Scotch deer-hound. Old Man Prindle�s contribution to the pack consisted of two immense brindled mongrels of great strength and ferocious temper. They were unlike any dogs I have seen in this country. Their mother herself was a cross between a bull mastiff and a Newfoundland, while the father was described as being a big dog that belonged to a �Dutch Count.� The �Dutch Count� was an outcast German Noble who has drifted west����. His dog, I presume, from the description given me, must have been a boar-hound or Ulm dog.�

There is a lot more in The Wilderness Hunter . Its worth reading.
Now to the dog described in Hunting Trips of a Ranchman which Teddy mentioned above.

�I have known one which had tried to seize a sheep and been prevented by the sheep dogs to canter off with one of the latter instead��..��. Better luck attended a large mongrel called a sheep dog by his master, but whose blood was apparently equally derived from collie, Newfoundland and bulldog. He was a sullen, but very intelligent and determined brute, powerfully built and with strong jaws, and though neither as tall nor as heavy as a wolf he had killed two of these animals single-handed. One of them had come into the farm-yard at night, and had taken a young pig, whose squeals roused everybody. The wolf loped off with his booty, the dog running after and overtaking him in the darkness. The struggle was short, for the dog had seized the wolf by the throat and the latter could not shake him off, though he had made the most desperate efforts, rising on his hind legs and pressing the dog down with his fore paws. This time the victor escaped scatheless, but in his second fight, when he strangles a still larger wolf, he was severely punished. ��the dog made good his throat hold, and throttled the wolf, though the latter contrived to get his foe�s foreleg into his jaws and broke it clear through. When I saw the dog he had completely recovered, although pretty well scarred.�

I know where there are some wolves .....

All kidding aside, my take on the wolves Irish and Russian wolfhounds were taking is that they weren't quite the same animal I see in AK. Anyone got pictures of European wolves the size of those Sapper posted? I've seen old photos of Russian steppe wolves that were taken by trappers and even by a falconer with a pair of golden eagles (that would be cool to watch). They were all quite small - I'd estimate the largest were 70-80 lbs. Maybe the coyote reference wasn't too far off for those. I'd bet it would be hard to get a single wolf to fight with a large agressive dog. Most likely if the wolf decided to try and kill the dog it would maintain some distance and wait for the pack to show and then kill it - i.e., the same way they do other large mammals. I'm sure the right pack of dogs could be trained to hunt and kill wolves though.

I'd agree that the AKC version of the Irish Wolfhound has been domesticated too far for wolf fighting. I'd like to have seen the original Irish wardogs that are the roots of the Wolfhound though, apparently quite a beast.

Just for the sake of good reading,

The story of Jack Abernathy.

http://www.open.org/%7Eglennab/catchemalivejack.htm

The Life of John R. (Catch-'em-alive-Jack) Abernathy

All data is paraphrased from Frontier Biography

John R. Abernathy was born on January 28, 1876 in Bosque County, Texas, descended from Scottish ancestors, his family relocated in 1882 to Sweetwater, Nolan County, Texas. Sweetwater, in 1882, was a booming railroad town with many construction crews and frontier men. Jack was musically talented and by the age of 6, he could play the piano while his brother often joined him on the violin or accordion as they provided saloon entertainment. One Christmas week, a shoot-out occured in which there were several victims. The boys parents learned then where the youngsters were spending their evenings, and removed them from saloon business forever. By the age of 7, Jack had seen a cattle stampede, and by 9 he had hired out as a very young cowboy in the making, saying abut the experience that he had "no trouble holding a job on the range, for I was clever with a rope." By the time he was 11, he participated in his first trail drive and by the age of 15 in 1891, he was "a full fledged cowboy." His boss at that time was Charles Goodnight on the J-A ranch where Jack broke horses, some 308 of them.
It was while he was working on the ranch that he learned his famous wolf catching trick. Two of the ranch dogs attacked a stray wolf and Jack tried to separate them just as the wolf whired to attack. Jack quickly moved toward the wolf and jammed his right hand into the wolf's mouth and "thanks to good luck the hand was far enough inside the mouth to avoid being caught between the long sharp canine teeth." Jack held the upper jaw of the wolf with his right hand and the lower jaw with his right hand, and the wolf was powerless to injure him. "It was that accidental hand-thrust, back of the canine teeth, that taught me how to grapple wolves," he later remembered. He wired the wolf's mouth shut and bound its legs, and later found the wolf outweighed him- 137 lbs. to 130 lbs.
After this incident, he began to be a wolf-catcher full time, and on December 1, 1891, accompanied by three new dogs, he began trapping the wolves at $50 per wolf and $5 per coyote, which proved to be very profitable; During his lifetime, he caught more than 1,000 wolves alive in the above described manner and became famous nationally for this skill. When he tried to show others how to do it, noone else was successful at the trick, mainly because they would become frightened after the wolf clamped down on their hand, and they would quit instead of holding fast, and the wolf would usually maim their hand. Jack sold the live wolves and coyotes to zoos, traveling shows and outfits that wanted them for breeding stock. When Jack caught the wolves, he sometimes wore a thin glove, but usually didn't wear anything, and he attributed his skill to unusual physical strength, developed from the sport of wrestling, and quickenss of eye.
John still wanted to acquire a musical education, so he quit the wolf-catching for a while and entered the Patterson's Institute, in Hillsboro, Texas, where he married a young woman, sold pianos and organs. Later he returned to breaking horses and chasing wolves, and in 1898 he settled in Greer County, Oklahoma, where he started a cattle ranch. There, he came a deputy U.S. marshal, and had numerous adventures there and as a deputy sheriff in southwestern Oklahoma. In 1905, he set up a wolf hunt for President Theodore Roosevelt who had learned of his skill and had written to him asking if he could see the wolf catching. Joining the party with Teddy was Quahnah Parker, the Comanche chief and several noted stockmen of Oklahoma and Texas. During a period of several days, Jack delighted the President by catching several wolves. After the wolf hunt, Roosevelt appointed Abernathy as marshal of Oklahoma, and for a time, Chris Madsen was his chief deputy and Heck Thomas and several other famous lawmen worked for him for a while. During the years he was a lawman he "captured hundreds of outlaws single-handed and alone, and placed 782 men in the penitentiary," and he never killed a single person during that time, though he escaped murder attempts several times. On December 4, 1906, he arrested a notorious killer named Jim Miller, while at Hobart, Oklahoma. Some time after that, Jack resigned as Oklahoma marshal and became a Secret Service agent in New York, then worked for the Mexican secret service during the Madero administration.
In 1919 he moved to Wichita Falls, Texas, about 1919, becoming a wildcat oil driller, having some success and made a lot of money, but he lost it during the Depression of the 1930's. In 1929, he was almost fatally injured in a a drilling-rig accident in Bastrop County, Texas, and was pronounced dead by an attending physician, and his body was being sent to a mortuary when the attendant observed him breathing again. Eventually, he recovered entirely after a long time. In his old age he moved to Long Beach California, where hie died on January 11, 1941. He was buried at Wichita Falls. His first wife had given him four daughters and three sons before she died in the year before he was appointed Oklahoma marshal, and Jack raised the children successfully and eventually remarried.

There is a whole lot more to this man that's not mentioned here.

I have seen Wolves that will exceed 135 lbs. in weight and their physical conditioning is far above that of a domestic dog's, even a bush Husky in northern BC Indian camps. I think that such an animal will win an encounter with ANY warm weather dog, Ridgeback, Dogo, Presa or whatever.

Packs of hunting dogs are a different thing and a pack of carefully selected dogs can kill dam near anything, but, one on one is different.

Just beside me live Hispanic "refugees" who breed and train superb Dogo Argentinos and these ARE great dogs. But, their largest male cannot match either of my Rottweilers in size or Axel in speed and is afraid of either of my dogs; this is, BTW, a large Dogo and my Rotts are big and tough, but, strictly trained NOT to go outside of their yard and fight the various, large neighbourhood dogs.

Maybe, if a Rott, Dogo, Ridge, Boerboel or Presa was bred and lived in the bush constantly, the situation would be different, but, we are talking "domesticated" and that softens a dog, even members of the above breeds. Also, a full-grown male Wolf is quite a bit larger than almost any of these and the heavy pelage, small-set eyes and limber body all work to the Wolves advantage, IMO. However, I am not going to try to find out first hand!!!!

My female, pure white, 2 yr. old, 7 lb. Llasa-Poo would run circles around them.....if there was at least 10 inches of snow.

LMAO!

My Dad's toy poodle had it out with a coyote. He lost, but given a second chance, I have NO doubt he'd take that POS in a rematch and kick any wolf's ass to boot!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My largest Rott, mighty Woden, 160 lbs. of solid muscle, absolutely LOVES tiny dogs and cats and plays gently with them, woofing in great glee. His smaller brother is fine with cats, but, he looks at other dogs with eyes like the muzzles of a Browning "Twin Fifty". In his younger days, if I have ever seen a dog that could MAYBE schittkick a Wolf, he is the one, but I wouldn't want to actually do this and maybe lose my beloved pet.

Fellas,
I've been with a guy who owned yote dogs and they were a mix of airdale and greyhound. They were so ugly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> But what sport chasing after yotes in a 4x4 with dogs barking and lifting the latch on the dog house on the flat bed truck. The fastest yote was a snail compared to this mix.

Interesting T.R. stories. Love the guy's writing.

An adult male Russian Wolfhound with proper experience can probably hold his own with one wolf. Against more than one wolf ANY dog is hamburger.

SU35- Jack Abernathy stories are always worth reading. I have the biography written by his grandson(?)"Catch 'em Alive Jack": The Life and Adventures of an American Pioneer. The co-author of that biography (Jon T. Coleman) also wrote a good history perspective on wolves called "Vicious: Wolves and Men in America"

Lost a cat to a 'yote a few years back. I'm hell on 'yotes.

Now don't go "dissin'" me over being fond of cats. Actually my current 16 lb. cat is very mellow and my 7 lb. dog (kinda), calls ALL the shots.

Maybe my Llasa-Poo can hold her own against a wolf....they bigger than 16 lbs.?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Actually, I like some cats (grin)!

That was actually true that a coyote snagged my Dad's poodle. What sucked was, it was my Mom's first, but she'd dies damn near a year to the day when that friggin' coyote grabbed the dog.

A neighbor gave the little yapper to my Mom when she lost her doberman <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. Gotta admit, them are smart little $%^@'er's!!!

It really hurt my Dad when that friggin' coyote came calling.

The cats I had growing up were too friggin' mean for a coyote. They fared pretty damn well for barn cats!

I'm still not buying that there are any dogs out there who can consistently kill wolves <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />!

I remember reading somewhere that statistics show that there were 7 breeds of dogs whose attack was more lethal than the attack from a bear.
But when I have mentioned that, I have seldon found anyone who would take on the bear instead of the dog if they were forced to choose.

Maybe, if a Rott, Dogo, Ridge, Boerboel or Presa was bred and lived in the bush constantly, the situation would be different, but, we are talking "domesticated" and that softens a dog, even members of the above breeds.

Yep, that sums it up. Greyhounds have been bred for speed for many, many generations and any mangy old coyote can outrun one by 10 mph. A domestic dog surviving a fight with a healthy wolf? I really doubt it.

My varmint huntin' buddy just hates when I see a yote', whether driving or on foot. I'm either out the door before the rig stops or I'm missing over the next ridge to try to get a shot as the yote' MAYBE stops for that "last look".

My son was a young teen and home alone when the yote' tore up our family cat several years back. He takes every opportunity these days to "secure" the property.

My dog would be perfect "bite size" for a yote'. Heck, a wolf might just pass on her. Who would want to eat a 7 lb. "furball" that just pee'd all over themselves?

I always wondered about the mentality of a lion that runs from a pack of dogs. I figure much of the reason is the lion knowing that a human is back there somewhere behind the dogs.

We've all seen the films of a pack of hyenas stealing a kill from lionesses - only to have one male charge in and kill every hyena that didn't flee in panic. Hyenas are 100-150 lbs, and the male lion just slaughters them.

Why would a lion run from a measly pack of dogs? It's gotta be the H&H back with the gun bearer...

Since Mtn lion are a descendant of the sabertooth, it is theorized, the fear of dogs, stems from their ancestors being harrassed by ardwolves. It is supposedly a genetic trait.

Wolves have to fight or die every day. Dogs get everything handed to them how could they possibly be as good a fighter.

I can't google it up, but I'm recalling that when when wolves first returned to Idaho one pack took up the practice of systematically trailing mountain lions and stealing their kills. Again I'm recalling an eventual death toll of nine (?) lions either dead by starvation or killed by the pack when reduced to a weakened state.

Dogs are generally considered a wolf subspecies now, leastways the lions apparently think they're wolves. Turns out around suburban backyards and such they learn to view dogs differently.

Birdwatcher

A question for anybody that knows wolves.

I know, because I have seen more than once, that a single coyote will lure a dog out and then the pack will jump it.

Once I saw it happen with my own eyes and three times more I figured it out by the tracks.


Do or will wolves operate that way?

BCR

AardWolf????????????????????????

That is a hyena sub-relation that is still over on the Dark continent.

Perhap's you ment the "Dire-Wolf".

Mike

Interesting read on wolves vs coyotes vs bears vs mountain lions, no mention of dogs though...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1169/is_n4_v36/ai_20925079



I'm recalling somwhere too of reading of a single wolf that had killed more than one black bear, IIRC on each occasion driving the bear out onto a mudflat where it was at a disadvantage. Prob'ly smaller bears I expect.

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher,

As a side note, wolves generally benefit the grizzly population in a common range, since a grizzly can drive a wolf pack off a kill or feed on the leftovers - wolves increase the bears' food supply. It's counter-intuitive, to me anyway, but an increasing wolf population usually results in an healthier bear population.

This was released the 11th by Idaho Fish and Game.I don't think the wolf is to worried about domestic dog's in any breed or even humans.Guard dogs are no problem to these daily fighters......

For those doubting Idaho's problem...What's wrong with Wyoming or Montana,as Butch would say,they must like Idaho Elk better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Bring on these killer pets!!!Idaho should be the proving grounds.

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Boggy,

My neighbor has watched it happen as well and I've heard of several instances where BIG dogs (like malamutes) were killed by coyotes or saved at the last moment because a landowner heard the commotion and came running with rifle in hand.

Don't know about wolves though, it'd be interesting to find out.

Body armor and spikes is what Idaho Fish and Game recommends for your dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Gotta love it.

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Boggy,

I've seen it personally with my own dog.

I lived 10 miles north of Prescott, AZ in the middle of Cattle Ranches. To make a long story short, I hunted every day with a dog(s).

I had a 110 lb Ridgeback that was baited by a single coyote, two other coyotes jumped him. The Ridgeback had one by the throat while the other two started biting him in the back. He ripped and crushed the throat of the one, killing it, and then grabbed another by the back of the neck and started shaking him violently. The third coyote had seen enough and took off. The 2nd coyote shook free and ran for his life with my Ridgeback chasing him. This particular Ridgeback was an experienced fighter.

Ridgebacks have been bred down by show people who have ruined every breed of dog there is. The original Rhodesian Ridgeback weighed in at 160 to 175 lbs. I have a bitch now that weighs 80 lbs and her brother sports 160 lbs.
He is the Alpha dog and he knows it.

In talking with JJHack while he was in Portland I asked him if he used Ridgebacks in Africa. JJ said he couldn't use them. When turned loose to find wounded game the Ridgeback was to
violent with the animal and would maul it so bad it would be disfigured to the point of being useless as a mounted trophy.

Again, its a known fact that Irish Wolfhounds (of old) could run down and kill a wolf. We've breed them down to sit in front of a fireplace.
I have no doubt that a Ridgeback (of old) a 170 pounder could kill a wolf.

I've seen the Ridgeback in action more than a few times. His background is wild dog as well.

Am thinking that would call for an SSS(minus the middle S of course <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

My personal thoughts on a domestic dog of any breed taking on a mature wolf and living to bark another day are very slim to none. No doubt it has happened, but a "one on one" in a wild setting is not likely going to go well for the dog.

RO

Wolves around Ketchikan are notorious for baiting dogs out and then eating them. Also known to take dogs off porches and leashes. My Lab was attacked three years ago this past Monday, about 40 yards from the end of my driveway in our relatively well populated (for Alaska) subdivision. She fought for her life, and my wife heard the ruckus in time to disrupt the attack. We noticed that Kona had wolf fur and skin wrapped around her canines when the vet was sewing her up, so when the trapper I brought in snared one a couple hundred yards from the house that had fresh bite marks, I claimed it as the culprit.

Interestingly enough -- he caught three wolves in a week within rifleshot of the house, and no dogs have been killed in the subsequent winters.

But I still go armed when I walk the dog, because one of these days...they'll be back...

And I will be ready <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />...

Point one depends entirely on where you live...another vote for Alaska...where it most assuredly is not illegal.

Point two I tend to agree with you entirely...

"The rougher the life, the tougher the dog that was needed. So it was in the 16th and 17th Centuries when the Dutch, Germans, and Hueguenots journeyed from Europe to tame the South African wilderness. These settlers brought Great Danes, Mastiffs, Greyhounds, Salukis, Bloodhounds, and other breeds that they eventually mixed and matched with the native Hottentot �ridged� dog to produce the courageous and versatile Rhodesian Ridgeback.

The short-coated Ridgeback is an elegant dog tough enough to hunt lions and guard settlements, endure blazing heat and freezing cold, and provide protective companionship to hunters exploring and hunting in the bush. The native Hottentot dog gave the Ridgeback his distinctive reverse-hair coat marking, a dominant characteristic that today makes him unique among dog breeds."

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/rhode.html

Sounds like a tough dog. That black Russian terrier looks kinda goofy, like a poodle or something, but they sound pretty stout too. I really like terriers because they create lots of action.

The dogo looks sorta like a great dane-pit bull cross?



I should get me a mixed pack of all three. I could really get in trouble with them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I wonder if the police would put my dogs in jail if they ate a wolf.

Point one depends entirely on where you live...another vote for Alaska...where it most assuredly is not illegal.

Minnesota too!
It is legal to shoot in defence of pet's,livestock and people!
Mike

Sapper,
How much do those pelts bring in? I mean, for the kids. Who can you sell wolf pelts to?

If I had to pick one it would be of the Livestock Gaurd Dog breeds and my choice would be either a Komondor or an Anatolian.

Not sure any of them could withstand a pack of wolves but many of the old world LGD breeds have been dealing with bears, wolves, etc. for centuries. Kuvasz would be another good choice as would a Maremma.

They are an interesting bunch of dogs, certainly not "pet" material as they are bred to work and aren't happy without it.
I think we may end up of with a Maremma.

http://www.lgd.org/

They were sold by the tribe to a private buyer.
Mike

Out of all the possibilities mentioned those and a presa canario would be the only possible.

Borzoi (Russian Wolfhound) or some other large wolfhounds bred for the killing have done it one on one, but more commonly in old Russia were run in pairs, or sometimes in 3's or more if younger dogs. If 2 wolves were after any dog, the odds would go to the wolves.

I had a Borzoi for several years and loaned him to a coyote hunter south of here to join his greyhounds for the hunt. He was very impressed with Czar.

An older friend of mine had Borzoi in western ND many years ago. His family ran them against coyotes and were careful to keep neighboring dogs away from them. The Borzoi wouldn't provoke fights, he said, but if one got started it was over fast. Their reflexes are extremely quick. That head can move like lightning. It's a beautiful and elegant dog, but not one to take lightly.

Betcha the M-70 Ridgeback Terrier, '06 sub-breed, does a marvelous job on a single wolf or a pack.

MM

Guys I dunno if you've ever seen an Argentine Dogo, but I lived in Argentina for 2 years and saw first hand many dogos. They are the biggest dogs I have ever seen, and I attend dog shows from time to time as my father breeds Doberman pinschers, so I've seen my share of big dogs. I saw on the news one time when I lived in Argentina, a man who bred 4 dogos to fight. He put them in a caged area with a Cougar that they caught. The dogs took some serious damage, but didn't much care! It is said that they have nerve clusters that are far less dense than most dogs, and don't feel much pain. The cougar died pretty quick BTW. In most cities there are no fences around peoples yards and dogs roam the streets freely. Everybody knows that German shepards, dobermans, rotties, "monte negros," etc are no big deal, but if you see a dogo, get the heck outta there cuz they are mean suckers.

One thing that may be a big disadvantage for pit bulls, rottweilers, dogos, etc is the short hair and relatively short canines.

Wolves have a pretty thich ruff around their neck and their canines are generally much longer than domestic dogs of similiar size.

A neopolitan mastiff or fila brasilero (sp) may be a better choice due to all the loose skin around their face and neck.

Still, as mentioned by several posters, wolves kill to eat and survive their entire life. A domestic dog, unless it kills on a regular basis, might be caught in a death hold before that kill instinct kicks in.

What's the old saying? "It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog." Course they were referring to dogs fighting dogs.

I would like to see a pack of cape hunting dogs fight a pack of coyotes, and a pack of hyennas fight a pack of wolves. Now that would be interesting. (Not to mention a mountain lion against a leopard or a tiger against a lion!) Them Romans must have seen some interesting fights back in heathen times.

I'd think that only a caged dog that's not allowed to love humans and that's used for fighting and has been seriously hurt fighting and basicly dosen't care if it lives or not is about the only breed that would stand a chance. That could be many different breeds.
A wild animal that's cornered is like the devil himself. Most would only fight to protect themselves and run if they had a chance. that dosen't mean a wolf that came up against a tough dog would not run. Infact if a human was there it might just run. But your pet dog alone against a wolf? Is wolf food. Just my thoughts on this.

You made a valuable point there. The wolfhounds used for the chase/kill in old Russia weren't family pets.

Another difference is that some breeds would fight hard if the fight came to them -- other breeds like the wolfhounds bring the fight to the wolf, they want to get it!

Lots of valid info stated here. Only problem I see is....and a very important one....man's best friend that would kill wolves would be a tough dog to keep around the ranch. Just like majority of wild animals don't make good pets....killers of wolves would not make the best pet either.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> I would think. I'd rather have my pet be a 'normal' dog and my other pet be a 243.

African sports I know are not willing to lose a 'loved pet' to flush out a wounded lion or whatever.

IDAHOCHUKAR2- "Lots of valid info stated here. Only problem I see is....and a very important one....man's best friend that would kill wolves would be a tough dog to keep around the ranch. Just like majority of wild animals don't make good pets....killers of wolves would not make the best pet either.... "

The Chukar Man nailed it.

I'll keep my pet dog as my pet dog... and my .308 handy, if it were to ever come to that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

L.W.

I know what you mean, idahochukar2. Czar loved the chase and a coyote was no match for him, but to run him against a wolf would have required training, much of that in the school of hard knocks, along with other experienced wolfhounds. That would have changed him a lot and he'd have been harder to manage as a family pet.

I hunted in Ontario years ago and met an old fellow who owned a big lumber operation. As we drove into his yard we were met with several very large mix-breed dogs running loose and several more chained to a tree. All of them made quite a racket and we stayed in the car until the old fellow came out and shushed them. Over coffee and pie he told stories about wolves and the various troubles he had with them. He simply hated wolves. His eyes grew fiery just talking about them. When I asked whether the dogs chained to the tree could handle themselves okay, he said No, they were too young, he brought them in every night. Only a couple of the dogs running loose could match an average wolf, he said, and they didn't stray very far at night. He kept the seemingly more ferocious dogs chained up because they didn't yet know any better -- they'd just get themselves into big trouble, meaning they'd get killed.

I saw a picture of fighting dogs in Africa that they used to go after wounded leopard after a terrier tracked it down. Heads as big as 5 gallons pails and outsized compared to the body. Never seen anything as intimidating and have seen all the dogs mentioned thus far. I think a wolf would run just looking at one of these brutes. It would be interesting to say the least.

This thread was intersting until it got to the "I'd like to see stage"
How many really want to see fight to the death just to settle a discussion?

Putting 4 brain dead dogs in a cage with a cougar hardly proves a thing, besides the guys state of mental health.

A dog has slim to no chance against a wolf in a fight.
A dog getting mixed up with a cougar, that ain't even a fight, just a dead dog.

RO

presa canario , argentine dogos, and some large pitts I've seen in military work, and unknown african fight dogs.............

I'm no expert, but have trained a few dogs. The dogs mentioned above do not make good pets, about as good as a domesticated wolf.

I run cur dogs on russian boars. Pitts do not do as well because they will "catch" hold and not let go. Hopefully it is the hogs nose, but if not he will be cut 13 diff ways by the tusks. We run deer with walker hounds because of nose and stamina. Still legal here. How else are we gonna hunt this thick stuff?

"Some" Pitts, dogos, and canarios if I am right are alike in the sense of fighers, aggression, and lack of nerves. They are killers and I would see one against one wolf anytime. I have seen these three breeds in person and they scared the hell out of me chained.

The best breed against wolves? The one that wiped every last one of them from the British Isles - the Irish Wolfhound. They did this - and they were bred to do it. They were so succesful, they almost died out after they exterminated them all - no reason for a three foot high dog any more. To say the result would be any different today with a fit pack - is wrong.

Mine present one "Dunnigan", is an honest 36 inches at the shoulder (level with the kitchen countertop) and can easily drink out of the sink without any problem. He's closing in on 160 lbs - and he's not even a year and a half old yet. When he stands up with his feet on my shoulders - I can't hold a bone out of his reach - and I'm six feet tall. He's faster than just about every other breed too - save Greyhounds, Saluki's and similar types.The best of them are brave too - the last one I owned always accompanied son on his walks into the woods when he was a kid. One time he saw a bear - and as he was retreating, he saw the dog "Gunner" go after the bear. When I ran down to the creek calling for the dog - he came back - and his mouth was full of black hair!
No sign of the bear though.

When I tried to train him in "Schutzhund" training (German police dog techniques) he was no good - he literally had no fear. When the leather wearing assailant came up and hit him with the stick to get a rise out of him - he merely stared back. Next, when the guy game closer - he lunged and broke his stick in two with one bite. He was a lean 180 lbs. After that - the club wouldn't let me train him in schutzhund - "too dangerous" they said.

The book "Irish Wolfhounds" by Alfred De Quoy has a number of stories in it about Wolfhounds being used in North America against wolves. One story shows the dog, and the stuffed wolf it killed, another shows a dog lying on the rug of a wolf it killed. The "battle" after the wolfhound catches up to the wolf - is usually over in seconds - the dogs use a method that involves a twist and toss that breaks the wolf's neck. One fellow in Oregon came across a wolf that was part of a little publicised move to re-stock some wolves. His dog chased after - what the owner was sure was a German Shepherd, something the wolfhound had liked to chase (and play with) in the past. By the time the fur started to fly - the owner ran up horrified. It was over in seconds - the wolf died of a broken neck - and a conservation officer confirmed the identity of the wolf. These dead wolves were not killed by "wolfhound packs" - these dead wolves were the result of one lone wolfhound attacking them. These are verified kills. The "average" wolfound would outweigh the "average" wolf by a factor of two. The biggest wolfhound (see your Guinness Records book - 42 inches at the shoulder - 240 lbs) is far bigger and stronger than any wolf on earth.

In the prairies of Canada - more than a few people still run them on coyotes. I'm told that a very few in the north, still use them on wolves. If there is a pair (or more) they can be sent out against a pack of wolves - as they will support each other in a fight - while the wolves tend to scatter when chased by more than one dog.

If I owned a trio of them - I'd let them do what they were designed for - it's the highest reward we can give our dogs.

My American Bulldog "Monty" - would die before he'd back down or quit in a fight. I'm sad to say - I couldn't get him off another dog and I beat him bloody while trying to save the other dog's life. Monty was bleeding from his nose, eyes, ears and mouth - before I finally calmed down enough to use my future father-in-law's cane (the same can I'd initially beat him with) to pry his jaws open - and release the dog that had made the mistake of snarling at Dunnigan (the wolfhound) when he was a little pup. The dog that was attacked - was owned by my fiancee at the time! In spite of this, perhaps because of this - and my valiant effort on her dogs behalf - she ended up marrying me! Monty has already laid into a bear - I sent in pictures last year of that encounter, and when push comes to shove - my wolfhound, Dunnigan, backs off when the bulldog, Monty, means business - but with a pack of wolves - I'm sure my bulldog would be a dead dog none the less. He'd latch on to the throat of one of them - and the rest would disembowel him - and he wouldn't let go. One on one, he'd might be fine, in fact, I'd bet on him. But, the wolfhounds big trick is they are fast enough to run wolves down - and then dispatch them instinctively by breaking their neck with that in-bred twisting manuever.

Like any other breed - the best of them are light years different from the average and poor ones. Mine came from Jocelyn Gagne of Welland Ontario. Her dogs are among the finest in the world.

[quote]NO dog will survive a battle with Wolves. In an encounter between a full grown male Wolf and one of my Rottweilers, I am certain that the Wolf would prevail due to better wind, a Rott's weak point; however, a big tough Rott. or similar dog would give a Wolf a good fight, especially my 120 lb. "Axel" in his younger days, fast, fearless and able to sustain savage damage while cheerfully grinning and fighting like the wonderful protector he is.[quote]

Your wrong there. Gamebred pitbulls would whoop a wolf in short order. Wolves are hunters, not fighters. Gamebred Pitbulls are bred to fight, and it would be the 1 in a 100 Wolf that could fend one off. Pitbulls have been bred for 150 years at the very least to win money matches, they excell at their game!

The Pitbull would just be getting warmed up after 10 minutes, the Wolf would be looking for the door. The same goes for all other breeds of dogs, including Rotts. There good guard dogs, but there not fighters. If they were, the folks who bet big bucks on dog fights would use them, they don't. That Rottie might look like he was winning, until the fight went for about 15 minutes, then he'd be crying like a whooped sissy at school. Trust me on that.

No Pitbull would be a match for a pack of Wolves. One on one, it would be no contest, and I'd be willing to bet lot's of green on the outcome...

I've owned lot's of Pitbulls over the years, and think in the right environment they are a wonderful pet. Just keep them away from other dogs. Otherwise, you'll have a dead dog, or Rottie!

J, I agree 100%.

J, I also agree........Blake

One thing's for sure. Anyone who's either owned or seen any of the "rough" dogs mentioned above in action, is suitably impressed!

A PH I know in RSA uses Irish terriers for killing problem lions (i.e. lions in the sugar cane, etc).

Basically, the dogs worry the lion(s) until the animal charges. Then the smart little scampers beat feet to the PH. Once the lion(s) see the PH they forget about the dogs and go for the people. Then you get to shoot at them.

He says the Irish terriers seem to work best, because they are brave enough to bait the lions, but smart enough not to get caught (most times anyways). Ridgebacks and the more aggressive breeds seem to get killed pretty quickly.

Having seen films of wolves eating a bison alive, and running down coyotes, they truly seem to enjoy their work.

As beautiful as nature is, it sure has one mean side to it as well.

A lion, bear, or big cat would kill a Pitbull. The Pitbull wouldn't quit and the cat/bear/lion would kill it. I lost my best Walker hound to a big Tom. She got out in front of the other dogs, cornered him, and that was that.

Lesson learned; always make sure your dogs run about the same speed.

Here's a couple of the better known "Gamebred Pitbulls."





It's not uncommon for matches to go 2 hours, and that's where all other dogs/wolves/badgers/wolverines come up short against a Pitbull. Gamebred Pitbull's won't quit easily, and the other animal just doesn't have it in them to go the distance.

I'm not advocating dog-fighting, and I think it should be illegal. But those are the facts, and if your looking for a dog to protect you from a wolf, a Pitbull is probably the one you want. If your Pitbull gets caught by a pack of wolves, your Pitbull will be dinner...

Just as the Pitbull does his job well, so does a pack of wolves.

I have a buddy who lost two big sheapards, and another who lost a big, mean rottweiler to a wolf .
Up here in the winter they lure the dogs into deep snow, and then kill them.

Cat

"Up here in the winter they lure the dogs into deep snow, and then kill them." - catnthehat

That's what the Ontario lumberman said, too.

I seen a Florida yellow flatback eat a 120 pound wolf without a problem..tore the wolf up bac....

Chihuaha. The wolves see them barking, and laugh themselves to death.

Very interesting thread.

I am not sure if there is a clear cut answer as there are so many variables.

But if we look back in history, we know that certain breeds of dog were regularly used to hunt and kill wolves.

The Irish Wolfhound has been mentioned several times on the thread, but as already stated by Birdwatcher, today�s Irish Wolfhound�s are not the same as those that cleared the UK & Ireland of wolves back in the 1600�s & 1700�s.

The original Irish wolfhound was a far more formidable dog and when not used for hunting wolves and other large game, doubled as a "war dog" ...From various paintings and historical accounts, we know it was far from the even looking breed we have today, and was essentially bred for performance rather than confirmation to a standard, much like today�s game-bred Pitbull�s are...

From Asia Minor, we have a number of breed's that gave rise to today�s Anatolian Shepherd. These have been used for hundreds of years to guard flocks of sheep from wolves & bears, and in the more remote parts of Turkey are still being used in that role...

The Karabash line of these dogs tend to be larger and show a mastiff influence, while the Akbash lines tend to have more sight hound in them ,and are therefore not so big or heavy. I would add that the locals tended to provide these dogs with large spiked protective collars...just how critical these were in an encounter with a wolf, I don�t know.

The Borzoi is another breed mentioned & again today the majority are bred for looks rather than ability as were the originals. Having said that, even today Borzoi are still used to hunt wolves in certain parts of Russia...

One common trait inall these breeds is that they have been bred to hunt or kill wolves for many, many generations..It really is (or was) instinctive in them and they have inherited a very high degree of antagonism towards wolves or even other dogs of wolf-like appearance. ..This extra drive is what would be missing from other large breeds such as GSD or Rotts.

Pitbulls are another breed with a very high drive, although in this case it originates from its heritage as a fighting dog.

Over the years, these dogs have been fought against just about every other breed of dog, and have consistently won.

This includes the larger breeds such as Danes, Rotty�s and Ridgebacks. It also includes other fighting breeds such as Akita�s (not strictly a pit dog) Tosa�s, Chows and Canary dogs�Simply put, in the pits, as a breed, the Pitbull reined supreme.

Although a wolf may have more biting power than a Pitbull, (I�ve not seen that proved anywhere) the Pitbull is more than capable of inflicting leathal damage to a wolf just as it can do to any other canine breed. The Pitbull was also bred to have a very tolerance of pain. Having said that, a pitbull fighting style may work against it in a fight with a wolf???

Frank Sheardown, a British fieldsports writer, had a love of dogs of all types but particularly hunting dogs such as lurchers and terriers.

In one book he recalls an event which took place out in the bush in 1950�s Kenya. He and a colleague were sitting around a camp fire one evening when his colleagues dog, an English bullterrier, started to get restless.

Sensing something was a foot in the darkness they stoked up the fire and pulled their rifles a little closer.

After a few minutes, the dog took off into the night and a terrible commotion took place. Eventually this died down and the dog returned to the campfire dragging the carcass of a hyena it had just slain.

I don�t recall if Sheardown specified whether it was an adult or young animal nor do I recall him mentioning the exact subspecies., never the less, it was quite an achievement.

The dog in question, (it was actually a bitch) would have been far closer in type to today�s pitbulls rather than the show-bred monstrosities that pass for English bull terriers we have today.

In fact when the British settled in southern Africa, the English and the Stafford Bull terriers were favourite breeds for use as big game hunters and were the inspiration for the famous book �Jock of the Bushveld�

I doubt very much a wolf has the biting power of a pitbull, or a rott which ranks a close second. However they have very big mouths and teeth and can certainly rip a dog apart easy enough.

I've enjoyed reading these posts.

A couple things come to mind regarding the overall question:

The wolf does far better in deep snow than most dogs. The wolf is more a killer than a fighter. The long-legged wolfhounds have great wind and are bred to kill quickly, because the wolf -- being wild and in no way tamed -- will take any advantage time and its familiar environment offers.

I don't mean this as a criticism of other breeds, which are bred for specific purposes; it's not a matter of saying, "This breed is the toughest." Under the right circumstances for the dog, many breeds may hold their own against the wolf, but the wolf usually doesn't permit those circumstances to happen.

41Kieth,

I believe these debates have gone on for a very long time!

Not far from where I live is Beddgelert (Gelert's Grave) where legend has it Prince Llewellyns faithful hound lies buried.

Legend of Beddgelert

Regards,

Pete

Pete, Thanks for that great link. I'd forgotten the story over the years. It tugs at the heartstrings...

Wolves are hunters, not fighters

They are both. Only male wolves that win fights with other wolves get to pass on their genes. Don't think for one minute that wolves aren't fighters.

I can imagine a big pit bull clamping onto a wolf and being torn to shreds as he held on.

I don't think they would. The thing most don't understand is the "gameness" quality that gamebred Pitbulls have.

No question that wolves fight for dominance, but much of it is show and bluff. The wolf won't fight long, just long enough to demonstrate his dominance.

The black Pitbull that's pictured above? His name is "El Negro"... He won 3 fights, all 3 of which went over 2 hours each. Think about that for a minute. They were big money matches that took place in Mexico. You can be certain that his opponents were quality "Pit dogs" that had won fights previously. The reason Pitbulls are such good fighters is their ability to take, and inflict pain, and they can bite as hard if not harder than a wolf.

Again, and this has been proven over and over again, all other dogs (and wolves); after about 15 minutes they have had enough. They just don't have the "gameness" qualities that Pitbulls do. The lack of that is why wolves have survived in the wild. If they fought that long, they would die. The wild animals life is all about the next meal, it's not about fighting and wasting energy.

Each animal has certain traits that make it reign supreme in it's environment. In the wild, the wolf sits at just about the top of the food chain, right below the Grizzly.

In the square ring, the Pitbull will defeat all comers.

I just want to reiterate, I don't fight dogs, and I think it should be illegal. That said, Pitbulls are my favorite dog and I have tremendous admiration for the little buggers. There are as loyal an animal as they come. My Dad had a son of one of my males named "Chuck." He weighed about 80lbs. I remember coming into the front room one evening watching my oldest daughter, she was using "Chucks" tail as a teething bone! He was just as happy as could be!

I never told my wife about that little incident... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I may be wrong but its my understanding the Pit bull terrier is not really a terrier at all but in fact they are the real and original bull dog.
The breed has been around a long time.

Look at the paintings from this site, those old bull dogs look just like Pits.

http://www.bulldoginformation.com/bulldog-breeds-types.html

Right you are.

SU35,

There are a lot of claims made about the origins of the Pit Bull, but most are founded on no more than speculation...Until scientist start comparing the DNA of the various breeds and lines, we will never know for sure...

Also, a Pit bull is *not* a terrier by defination...A terrier is a dog that is bred to go to ground, and the name derives from the Latin "terra"....Pitbulls undoubtedly have terrier blood in their make up, but quite how it all fits together, nobody can say with certainty.

For a start many of original dogs are not pure breds as such...Rather than bred to a looks based standard as most KC registered breeds do today, in days of yore, looks had little to do with it and results/performance are what mattered...

Eventually a confirmation did evolve but it did so by breeding the best performers to the best performs and that confirmation was the best for the job at hand.

When breeders stopped doing that and bred simply for a stylised confirmation, you got such exagerated monstrosities as todays English Bulldog or todays English Bull Terrier...Neither of these breeds relate much to the original breeds and I believe they are much poorer for it..

Regards,

Pete

The wolf won't fight long, just long enough to demonstrate his dominance.

I don't imagine the fight would last too long against a dog either. When a pack makes a kill, how do they decide who gets to eat first? (hint: they don't draw straws).

This is great! I wonder if we can make it last until next hunting season?

Quite obviously Mr J knows his pit bulls. A lot of the boys who chase hogs down here use pits as catch dogs.

Once they latch on they won't let go. This is both good and bad.

If they get the ear or jowel they are all right but if they miss their hold they can come out of a fight looking like a crazy quilt.

I too have seen a staged dog fight between pit dogs. I hope I never see another one.

What does this have to do with wolves. Not knowing diddly about wolves but what I read in the papers my guess would be that in single combat a good pit would in most all cases kill the wolf. Aginst more than one the wolves would stretch the dog and kill it.

BCR

JBabcock,

"In the square ring, the Pitbull will defeat all comers."

I'm reminded of the old story where the plantation owner buried a slave neck-deep in the ground and then sicced his bulldog on him. When the slave bit the dog back, the owner kicked the slave and yelled, "Darn n*gger! Fight fair!"

If the fight in the square ring didn't go the pitbulls way, you could always tie the wolf's legs together <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Out on the open ground a single wolf can kill a moose. That same moose would stomp a wolf into mush in a ring. Using its intellegence, speed, and patience a male lion will kill a cape buffalo - but not in a cage match.

It might take a while, but on the open ground a wolf would kill a pitbull as surely as the sunrise. The only chance worth betting on is whether the pitbull would even draw a drop of the wolf's blood.

The mistake you're making is thinking wolves fight like dogs - they don't. Wolves KILL like wolves.

So what happens when TWO wolves fight? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry JOG, but on this "What if Superman would have been German" type thread I'm gonna side with the pit bull.

No question a wolf has longer legs and better wind, and so can pick and choose the time for combat but I'm betting on the pit bull.

No way a wolf can kill the dog without touching it, pits may not be wolves but slugs they ain't, especially those trained for the pits. No way a wolf could close on the pit bull without being closed on in turn and if wolves were better fighters wolves and wolf look-alikes would dominate in the dog pits, where performance is all that counts, but they don't.

Besides which, as folks have been pointing out, there's LOTS of anecdotes and history about dogs killing wolves one on one, so it CAN be done, commonly in fact.

Birdwatcher

Yes there is! I don't know how they would work against a wolf, but I saw one kill a full grown doberman with one well placed bite....in the jugular!

The doberman got loose and was coming after the small child
the wolf hound was guarding/playing with. Met the dobie in mid air and it was dead before they hit the ground!

Watched this from inside at a friend's house through the screen door. Happened really fast!

I beleive all the references were made concerning "English/Irish" wolves, which I beleive someone stated, were much smaller than a Canadian Timber Wolf.

I have no doubt the "Irish Wolf Hound", helped exterminate all the wolves from England/Ireland, back in the day.
If the Irish wolf hound is/was such a lethal wolf killer, where were they in the 40's and 50's, when the Canadian wolves were on the hit list for extermination? I have read many accounts of arial shooting, trapping and poisoning, but nary a single account of a Wolf hound being used to kill wolves.
If anyone has a link or book name to such information, I would be very interested in researching it.

RO

No, if fact the wolfhound was much larger than a timber wolf.

If they weren't used, I couldn't say why; wolfhounds were used in Dakota Territory when the Prairie Wolf was here and have been run against coyotes since then. Custer had wolfhounds. I know it isn't a cheap thing to pursue, but lots of people have the money to do it, I suppose, if the interest is there, given the wolves to begin with.

If wolves were the game, one would have to expect to lose a few dogs in the training. Also, one would have to do selective breeding to restore as much of the "old instincts and spirit" as possible. It would take awhile to really get the hounds one might want.

280don's post illustrates the quick kill that wolfhounds are bred to instinctively apply.

That's the way you train hog dogs. Just put them in with the bunch and let them bay hogs. Them that live make hog dogs after a while. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BCR

I guess Irish wolfhounds may have been let loose singley (doubtful) or in packs to run down and kill wolves on their own, but I would have thought that people would have come on the hunts and killed (or at least helped kill) the wolf once it was bayed. Just a thought.

This whole post is kind of like "If the Hulk and Superman fought, who would win?". Back in the olden days, people were a less sensitive lot (apparently), and took great sport in pitting various combinations of dogs and wild animals (and sometimes people) in fights to the death. Most of us today, don't have the stomach for that kind of sport (or if we did and publicly admitted it, we would be vilifiled (sp).


My guess (as in many things in life), some individual dogs of the proper size and temperament (irrespective of breed) could kill some wolves on some days. The reverse is also probably true. On most days, I would probably bet on a large wolf vs a large dog, but unless we have actual death matches no one really can say for sure.

BTW No one has mentioned the bull mastiff, another dog with a lot of wolf fighting potential.

From the reading I've done, Buffhunter, you're absolutely right; in old Russia the wolfhounds were often used to catch and hold the wolf until their master arrived and killed it, usually with a knife. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> Some trained the dogs to do the kill themselves and I've read that the female was as often as not the killer, with the larger male holding. If the dog was exceptional, sometimes the entire task was left to him. One wolfhound running down and then killing a wolf wasn't considered a sure bet.

One downside of having the wolfhounds do everything is, of course, being deprived of the final kill. After all, what's your knife for anyway? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I was refering to the English/Irish wolves, not the Wolf Hounds.

RO

Just as in most things in life, money talks. Always has, always will. If the wolf was the great fighter some here are saying he is, more of them would be used by those who bet anywhere from $500.00 aside to $50,00.00 on a dog fight.

They don't, and as the saying goes, "The proof is in the pudding!"

Those of you who think the wolf is the best dog fighter around, go get one, find somebody who has a Pitbull and set them down. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'm willing to bet that within 15 minutes that wolf will be trying to see if that Pitbull can run as fast as he can....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The Irish Wolfhound was actually a "sight hound" and as such was run to make contact with its prey rather than to bring it to bay...As to why it was not used in more recent years, thats because the original strains went extinct along with the wolf they hunted...basically as a breed the changing times (such like the advent of reliable firearms), made them redundant.

As I mentioned in an earlier post they were often used as war dogs by the feuding Irish. The account below is an eye witness description of one such incident:

"There are many stories of the bravery and ferocity of the hounds in battle, such as the one fought by Donald Yellowlocks of Ulster to avenge the killing of his son by Fergus of Ireland, in which the Ulster hounds were �with ardour destroying and beheading each warrior�. One bitch sprang into Fergus�s chariot, which was unable to stand the added weight and promptly collapsed, and seized the charioteer by the neck and tore his head from his body. After this, being unable to find Fergus, who had jumped out of the wreck of the chariot, she killed the horses."

The dogs were generally a degree larger than the bitches and one early historian notes they were "much taller" than the Mastiffs of the day and that "Their aspect is mild, their disposition peaceable, but their strength is so great that in combat the Mastiff or Bulldog is far from being equal to them. They mostly seize their antagonists by the back and shake them to death, which their great strength generally enables them to do."

A little later in history they were used to track down and kill mounted knights who had evaded from a battlefield...The wolfhound was favoured for this as they were able to deal with the heavy horses the armour clad knights favoured in those days..If the knights were thought to be on foot often scent hounds were used instead...

Regards,

Pete

JBabcock, if you were to capture a wolf and put it in an enclosed ring with a pitbull, and the pitbull won, you'd be able to say that dog beat that wolf on the dog's terms. No one here is slighting the pitbull. But if the wolf and any dog are on the wolf's turf, I don't think the dog will have an easy time of it...

One fellow can be greatly credited for the Irish Wolfhound's survival, as noted here:

"Due to a massive export into various countries as a gift for royalty and a ban that allowed only royalty to own such a dog, the breed almost vanished in the middle of the 19th century. Captain Graham rebred the Irish Wolfhound with the Deerhound, Great Dane, Borzoi and other breeds; this saved the breed, but had the inevitable effect of altering its appearance, most noticably leaving the Irish Wolfhound with alternative colours such as Brindle (inherited from the Great Dane) as before they were mainly grey in colour. The ancient breed (often referred to as the Irish Wolfdogge in contemporary accounts) was available in both a smooth and rough coated variety. Descriptions of its appearance and demeanor, as well as the method of its use place it closer to the flock guardians in appearance than the modern breed. The historical variety was famed for its loyalty, discernment, grave nature and aggression. In terms of temperament the modern breed has been greatly mellowed.[citation needed] Wolfhounds are often referred to as "Gentle Giants", and an historic motto of the breed is "Gentle when stroked. Fierce when provoked.""

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Wolfhound )

------------------------------

Also, an interesting general overview of the Borzoi is here:

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borzoi )

"These are dogs used to pursue, or "course," game and they have a strong instinct to chase things that run from them. Borzoi are built for speed and can cover incredible distances in a very short time. They need a fully-fenced yard if automobile traffic is present within several miles of their home. For off-lead exercise they need a very large field or park, either fully fenced or well away from any traffic, to ensure their safety.

Borzoi do not have strong territorial drives compared to breeds such as Mastiffs and German Shepherds, and they are definitely not to be thought of as a "fighting" or "guard dog". They cannot be relied on to raise the alarm upon sighting a human intruder.

Generally, Borzoi should not be territorially aggressive to other domestic dogs. Against wolves and other wild canids, they are born with specialized skills, but these are quite different from the dog-fighting instincts seen in some breeds. It is quite common for Borzoi at play to course (run down) another dog, seizing it by the neck and holding it immobile. Young pups do this with their littermates, trading off as to who is the prey. It is a specific hunting behavior, not a fighting or territorial domination behavior.

Borzoi can be raised very successfully to live with cats and other small animals provided they are introduced to them at a young age. Some, however, will possess the hunting instinct to such a degree that they find it impossible not to chase a cat that is moving quickly. The instinct is triggered by movement and much depends on how the cat behaves."

------------------

Just for the record, whatever the breed of the dog, I'd want him to win the battle of dog vs wolf.

Someone posted a while back about how a coyote attacked his beagle and a thread ensued. I think they hit it on the head when they mentioned that most dogs have tracking ability but lost the "kill" bite by being domesticated. Also the teeth are not as long as they are on coyotes. I can only imagine that a wolf would be alot worst than a coyote. Even one on one a dog has the odds stacked against it in my opinion. Esox357.

Jbabcock:

Just as in most things in life, money talks. Always has, always will. If the wolf was the great fighter some here are saying he is, more of them would be used by those who bet anywhere from $500.00 aside to $50,00.00 on a dog fight.

They don't, and as the saying goes, "The proof is in the pudding!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------

As stated by another poster, "no one is is slighting the pitbull".

Just as you don't see money being bet on Mike Tyson boxing a [bleep], you won't see money being bet on pitbulls fighting anything other than other dogs.

But pitfighting has rules just like in boxing. Aside from the problems of trapping and transporting wild wolves to areas where pitfighting is done, dogfights (as I understand them), generally match dogs against dogs of similiar weight classes (i.e. a 30-45 lb pitbull against another dog in the same weight class).

Pits, as impressive as they are, were developed to fight in sporting dog fights. They were deliberately bred to have short hair to allow them to fight in warm weather and (as I understand it, to allow the audience see the blood better).

Whether 40-65 lb pitbulls can kill 140-160 lb timberwolves readily will never be answered unless someone has factual historical accounts of these matches, or has firsthand knowledge of recent fights.

Anything else, is basically, my "karate teacher can beat your karate teacher, or my religion is right and yours is wrong".

Still, this topic makes for an interesting discussion.

I don't have much interest in the "who's dog is tougher" stuff, but I can tell you that several area pit bulls have been killed by wolves, and rather easily. I'm sure they were not trained fighting dogs. They probably have never even been in a pit. I know a guy who has midget horses, goats, and stuff. He runs a feed store out of his home and feeds the yarded deer every year on his place. He keeps a half dozen pits, some chesapeakes, a couple of newfoundlands, and a few various mutts. All the dogs have free rein of his property. He has had dogs, including pits taken from his yard. The wolves hang around sometimes because the deer are there. Personally, I think it would be pretty funny watching a pit bull trying to chase a timber wolf around. The wolf would be like "I think I'll lay here awhile until that stupid dog finally gets here. Then I'll stretch and trot away. Not feeling like dog tonight anyhow." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This topic, however has been the most productive of any "wolf'
topic I've seen on hunting forums. I think folks could use this info. When I first saw the photo (on AR, I think), I wanted to suggest to the fellow who is pictured holding up the head and bones of his poor huntin' dog to consider using some new dog breeds to mix in his pack. I figured he wasn't in the mood for my advice, so I didn't say anything, but I think hound hunters could profit from a thread like this.

The hound hunter would best be served by what, a wolfhound, razorback, or some other dog that could keep up with the bear hounds (not a pit)? Something big, mostly to fight a wolf?

The hiker, or homestead could probably get by with a huskier, slower breed to protect us slow people from harm. Yet, they may also need to protect against a grizzly so should not be too slow. A bull mastiff looks pretty bad (good), but they were bred to protect against people, weren't they?

A rancher probably wants a dog that won't attack his stock, but will hang with his stock?

Perhaps there is room in wolf country for some of these old breeds of working dogs.

DPole,

Hound hunters are way ahead of you, they call them Plott hounds. They were developed using Pitbulls years ago. They can be pretty agressive, at least more so than your regular Walker/Black and Tan/Bluetick hounds.

.....Wolves make thier living being a pack animal,they aren't stupid enough to face off with a pitbull (one on one)on open ground so long as thier speed could provide escape. The pitbull,small as he is when compared to a timberwolf,is a FIGHTER AND KILLER by profession! On his own, one on one,he has over generations, bested all comers in such one on ones.Even in the days when Bull baiting was in vogue,pit bulls often killed full grown fighting bulls,by strangling them before being battered to death by thier powerful advesaries. Of course they've lost some battles too,but from bulls,to malamutes,to you name it in the doggie world,pit bulls have PROVEN themselves to be the champ in one on one.....That said, a pitbull wouldn't stand a snowballs chance on a hot skillet,if he met a wolfpack on "thier" ground. It'd be more like suicide! .....Lions and such,would also do in the best of the canines of course....Then for all the fun this thread offers;;; I'd bet a rino could mash the badest wolf ever, into wolfjelly, along with the pitbull hanging off the wolfs neck!

olhippie,

I agree with you 100% on all counts!

Well thank God. With wolves on the verge of being delisted, I guess all we need to do to put them back into extinction is to let a few pit bulls loose in the wild.

A friend of mine had a dog in a kennel that was to keep away people from his gun repair business. It was part Great Dane and part Doberman. He called it a Doberdane.
I have never seen another one and I don't know if it could kill a wolf but if you saw it hurl itself against the fence and heard it bark you would stay off his property. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
whelennut

JBabcock,
I figured as much, but I bet they could improve the pack even more with some bad-assed dogo bloodlines. Of course, the lion or bear, or whatever the pack is chasing, might sometimes end up with.. what shall we say....a less desirable hide? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

RO
Alaska'a Wolf Man by Rearden has much about how dogs and wolves fight... Worth the read.
art

May not be a domestic but this dog will take of wolves.

http://www.courageouscaucasians.com/

http://elbruskennel.net/KoHistory.html

Thanks Art, I'll look around for it.

RO

RMiller,

Looks like you found a good stock dog there.

Plott hounds appear to not stand a chance. I googled them and came up with a story or two.
"They were overpowered so fast they didn't have time to fight - the wolves shredded two of them," Alexander said of his three dead dogs adding pieces of the dog's body parts and intestines were spread around the area.. "The wolves were slinging these dogs around. There was blood three feet high up on the trees."

The dead dogs "had no wolf hair in their teeth," Alexander said, indicating they did not fight the wolves and died fairly quickly.

http://www.tothecenter.com/print.php?type=N&item_id=445

Wisconsin DNR posts what kind of dogs and where they were killed. In most cases, the wolves were apparently protecting their young. They have warnings posted here also that show the attack areas.
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/er/mammals/wolf/dogdepred.htm

The caucasians are from russia.

The tradition is to crop thier ears so when a wolf grabs for the dogs ears it only gets a mouthfull of hair which leaves the wolf vulnerable. One wolf is not a match for a caucasian.

Also the dogs are shaggy like sheep so when the wolves come running all the sheep take off and the dog lays down til pounced on by a wolf.

These dogs are known to take on a wolf or wolves for that matter. If they are overtaken they will fight to the death.

My buddy had one of these dogs named "Conan" . His parents were brought over from Russia. The father named Czar was 220 pounds . Had cropped ears and looked like a bear not a dog. The mother was 180 pounds. Conan has reached 200 pounds at his peak.

They are loyal and faithful to family. But very distrustful if you are not family.

The dogs ears are cropped by grabbing a puppy by the ears and flinging it in the air and ripping the ears off. If the dog does not live through this it is not worth keeping. (old tradition).

Thanks for the info on the Caucasians. It's quite an interesting breed!

JBabcocks point that, if there was another dog (including a wolf) that could beat a pitbull in a cage, then they would be showing up in the cages, cannot be argued.

As pointed out several times, wolves instinctively kill, and only fight when socially necessary. A gamed pitbull instinctively fights, and a wolfs instinct would cause him to run from the fight, once it was obvious that things weren;t in his best interest, just as he would from an alfa male that he couldn;t dominate.

In our exploration camps (most in the cassiar/stewart/stikine area, east of the AK panhandle), people insist on bringing dogs all the time. The ones that aren't tied up or trained to stay in camp dissapear without fail. So in relation to the original question being "which domestic dog breed can hold its own against wolves (plural)", then my answer after seeing literally dozens of them dissapear in the northern BC woods, is none.

" my answer after seeing literally dozens of them dissapear in the northern BC woods, is none. "

Of course, wolves run in packs and kill in packs. One dog of any breed would not stand a chance.

Take one wolf, one game bred pit bull on any ground and the odds will go to the pit bull. Same could be said with a Wolf Hound as well.

Judging by the length of this thread.......

Hunting season must be over and we all must be bored! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes J I think your right. Would somebody please go out and kill something and post a pic of it!

No problem.

My next hunting season begins in May and if I miss that then it will be August.

Yes J I think your right. Would somebody please go out and kill something and post a pic of it!

-----------------------

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OR, someone could send his dog out to do it and take pictures later...

hello

there is two breeds that come to me immediatly ...

charplaninatz used in ex yugoslavia to fight wolves and protect herds from them ... efficient too with bears if they re well trained you cant use with kids or friends just a good warden ... they re fitted with leather and steel to protect back and throat dont knwo why lol .... anatolian dog ( from turkey) is good choice too but heard only never seen one in action ...

other one used by russian and finns the carelian bear dog perfect too and less agressive than charplaninatz ....

hope this helps

I'd be very suprised if there is any breed or any one dog out there that, one on one, could hold its own against a wolf.
Theres not to many that can stay with a coon much less a wolf. I've seen 1 coon whip several dogs.
Just my opinion...I really dont know much about wolves.

Frank Glaser had some stories, eh?

I wonder if he ever told the one about the immoveable object versus the irresistable force! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A doc that I used to work with had Irish Wolfhounds. He was very much into them and had several at any one time.

He was also a runner and on one of his early morning jogs, during which he was accompanied by one of his dogs, they were charged be a large pitbull from a farmhouse. The wolfhound flashed in and rolled the pitbull in a matter of a couple of seconds. The pitbull charged again and the wolfhound again flashed between him and the charging dog, this time the wolfhound used his teeth and the pitbull was left flopping in the ditch. He said this was all over in a matter of about 30 seconds. By the way, this wolfhould was a mature male and weighed 200 lbs. So, I think one on one, the Irish wolfhound might hold their own.

There is only one breed that could kill a wolf, often used in Roman times by them to kill lions in the arena and that is the Bull Mastiff.

Might be picking lint, but for what it is worth, the Bull Mastiff breed, as I recall, is a fairly recent breed resulting in crossing bulldogs with mastiffs (60/40 or 40/60?).

They were developed to help catch poachers from taking game from the lands of the noble classes (dukes, earls, lords, etc).

The Neopolitan mastiff is supposed to be more of a direct descendent from the ancient Romon Molosus (sp) that was used in the arenas against wild animals, Christians, etc.

I certainly think the list of dogs that can kill a wolf is short.

But certainly not limited to one breed.

Since this post is never going to die. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Methinks individual dogs of several breeds (or even curs) might be able to kill a single wolf (provided it is the right wolf).

But a big alpha wolf in his prime, might be more than a match for any single dog (regardless of breed).

Does anyone have any historical accounts of wolf vs. dog fights? I know one poster referenced a book that had some info on wolf/dog fights, but if he has the book, I for one, would like to hear about some of the accounts.

his is about the caucasion:

Volkodavs are capable of killing the wolf, a leopard, a bear. AS TO THE WOLF- IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, and with the others named, they fly into a rage... Yes, some experts mention duels of these dogs with young leopards and the same young bears, but authors are inclined to count real combat between the dogs and leopards and bears as legends. The bear is capable of killing with one blow of his paw a dog of any breed. Representatives of large cats easily cope with dogs with teeth which are the instrument of murder, and with equally dangerous claws. And last circumstance is especially important: dogs are absolutely not prepared to counter the techniques of conducting combat by cats - The impacts by the hind legs are capable of instantly opening the belly.

http://www.dogforce.com/facts_fiction.htm

I read the stories in the link. Interesting, but very biased by a breeder and big time fan of the breed.

It would be nice to read an actual account of a fight.

This is some excerpts from "The Dog Pit" published in 1888 and written by a man with 30 years experience in dog fighting in the US and considered to be an expert in the field. It should be noted that he uses "bulldog" and "bull terrier" interchangably to refer to a dog that has been bred from full-blooded english bulldogs and english hounds and are used for fighting, rat killing, and bear badgering, and raccoon baiting.

The drawings of these dog (in the book) resemble today's pit bulls and american bulldogs.

In describing the breed he states:

"It has always been acknowledged that the bulldog is the most ugly and unrelenting of the canine breed. He will attack any animal, no matter that it be lion or tiger. It is strange yet a fact that the brain of a bulldog is smaller than that of any other animal."

What I find interesting is that the pitbull fans will gladly believe and quote the valor of the animal, but generally will not abscribe to the part about the it having the smallest brain of any animal. The book make for an interesting read though.

PS If anyone wants this book, e-mail me and I will send it to free first-come first-served. (It's about the size of the Colorado fishing regs).

Bull Mastiffs are nothing more than a cross between an English Bulldog, (which has a hard time getting out of it's own way) and a Mastiff. And the Mastiffs of today are plagued by health problems.

You folks need to find out what a real game bred Pitbull is. I've never seen a Bull Mastiff yet that I thought would stand a chance against one... here's a nice 70 pounder.

Dog fighting has been going on for 100's of years. If the wolf is so bas azz, the wolf would have been used for fighting.
There are plenty of dogs that will kill a wolf on a one on one fight. No dog will survive being outnumbered by wolves

Using that logic, grizzly bears would also have been used for dog fighting by now as well.

Please, do you really think that a 70lb pit could kill a 400 pound lion? Wake up!

Bullgator,

I don't think any dog, (singular) can kill a full grown lion, Mountain or otherwise. If you had read my previous posts you would have read that I never said I thought they could. I also said I lost an excellent Walker hound to a full grown Mountain lion. I do think that Pitbull who's picture is posted above would kill a Bull Mastiff in short order. Unless the Bull Mastiff could run faster than the Pitbull!

Bull Mastiffs may look impressive, but they aren't much of a performance animal. Their bred for looks, not for work.

I don't think any Bull Mastiff would last 20 minutes with that dog who's picture I posted. I think a Bull Mastiff would start to cry for Mama in about 7 or 8 minutes. Any statements regarding how "tough" a Bull Mastiff is just demonstrates a lack of understanding of what a Game bred Pitbull dog is. A Bull Mastiff may be "tough" against a collie, but he isn't bred to fight, contrary to what you may have read. He was a dog that was "created" to look the part. I believe they were recognized by the major kennel clubs in the early 20's. The foundation stock for the creation of the Bull Mastiff was 60% Mastiff, and 40% Old English Bulldog.

Pitbulls haven't been bred to "look" the part, Game bred Pitbulls are bred strictly based upon performance. It's not any different than a Labrador that's a working dog, compared to a Labrador that's a show dog.

Two different animals. A perfect example of what happens when dogs are bred for looks is the Irish Setter.

There was a time when real Mastiffs were bred as working dogs, and if I'm not mistaken it was those dogs that were used in the Roman games. They were also used by the Roman army to attack and kill humans. But the Mastiff of today is a very different animal than those Mastiffs of long ago.

This has and is fascinating stuff. What I am going to say is said from the point of I THINK because I sure as hell don't know for sure.

I think I would agree with JB that a good fighting pitt bull would kill a wolf one on one. Mind I said a fighting dog.

The reason I say this, now remember I don't know doodly about wolves but what I read in the papers and see on film, because of the difference in fighting styles.

I know some about pitts using them as catch dogs on wild hogs.

A wolf seems to fight but the fights are short. The other wolf either gives up quick or tries to run away. Maybe a few minutes tops no more than two or three minutes.

A pitt WILL NOT QUIT FIGHTING once he starts. You damn near have to beat him sensless to make him quit or drag him off.

I THINK in a pitt/wolf fight the wolf would either try to submit or try to run after those two or three minutes of fighing. The pitt would do neither just keep fighting.

Now my ego sure ain't involved here so if I am dead wrong it won't hurt my feelings to be told so.

BCR

we have raised GAME cocks for many years.... Babcock knows of what he speaks, it isnt any different with dogs... a 12# "barnyard" rooster or a 20# wild Turkey might pound on my little 5# rooster for a few minutes but after about 10 minutes or 2 hrs , it doesnt really matter, ol "Barny" or the WT with be squallin for his momma with his head stuck in the corner.. thats why they are called GAME cocks... its how they live... 721

I bet that my wolf can beat up your chickens! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Aw heck, I wouldn't mind so much if he just beat up on 'em ... his killing them would irk me though! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Let me tie a 4in long knife on each leg and I bet it would surprise you!! He would look about like a Mt Lion had a hold of him... you have no idea... 721

I once saw a video clip of Game Cocks going at it and it was something to behold, I admit!

The modern incarnation of the Bull mastiff was as a Gamekeepers dog meant to catch poachers. These dogs were not meant to bite and hold as a GSD or even a Pitbull does, but to "pin" the poacher to the ground be dint of sheer body weight and power...

Col David Hanock, a British authority on these dogs has been trying to reserrect the working qualities of the breed, but last I heard was still not happy with the results he was getting..

Below is a link to an article by Col Hancock on the subject which gives an overview of the breed:

http://www.geocities.com/bmf_Canada/history.html

Col Hancock has also written a very good book on the subject called "Mastiffs: The Big Game Hunters, Their History, Development & Future"

An extract from the book can be see in the link below:

http://www.shaku1.com/libro.html

How is a Grizzly bear count as a dog?? WTF?

Seems like we need a new thread "Which domestic rooster can hold its own against a pheasant?"

How does a wolf count as a dog??

buffhunter, I think I have finally realized what the problem is here. Some people think of wolves as some kind of feral dog, rather than a separate species. That's completely wrong of course, but it's the only way I can understand the confusion shown by that comment.

Hmmm,

Can a Wolf breed a female dog? Separate species, well yes, but not as separate as you might like us to think.

I don't want you to think anything. Anyone who cannot understand why wolves are not used in dog fighting contests probably believes that if a gorilla could out-wrestle a human then we would see them in the WWF.

I have no idea of how a large wild wolf, such as the ones in Alaska, would do against a dog. However there is one thing for certain the dog can't do, and that's to crack the heaviest moose bone to get the marrow out. Wolves can.

McInnis,

Must be a bad day for me or something. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I don't think wolves are used in dog fighting contests for one reason, they don't win. This ole world we live in is fueled by money. And you can bet that those who are into dog fighting, do it mainly for the gambling aspects. If some clown thought he could win some money by fighting a wolf against a Pitbull, he would.

He'd figure out someway to get one. My best buddy had a wolf hybrid in the early 80's. I remember going to get it with him. The guy raising those hybrids had a big Timber wolf he used as a stud. Big black one. Beautiful animal. His eyes never left you. I guess if he could get one, others could too. Seems a shame to me to take an animal that's conditioned to live in the wild and then put him in a pen.

Whatever. The original question was...



I still stand by my original statements that a pack of wolves would eat a Pitbull. One on one, my money goes on the Pitbull.

YMMV

It used to be, and some still feel it is like this:
Canus lupus = wolf
Canus familiaris = dog
Same genus, different species.

However, from the link http://www.fiu.edu/~milesk/intro.htm :

"In 1993, the dog (Canis lupus familiaris) was reclassified under the species status of the gray wolf (Canis lupus) in Mammal Species of the World: A Taxonomic & Geographic Reference, the internationally recognized taxonomical publication, printed by the Smithsonian Institute and the American Society of Mammalogists. So the timber wolf (Canis lupus nubilus), the arctic wolf (Canis lupus arctos), and the dog (Canis lupus familiaris) are all subspecies under the genetic umbrella of the gray wolf. Some scientists believe that the dog should, more specifically, be referred to as a domestic variant of the gray wolf (still under the species designation of Canis lupus) rather than as a subspecies of gray wolf (i.e., equal to the arctic wolf) because of its domestic status."

So, the above means that they are considered as the same genus and species, but different subspecies.
Its never easy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />




As long as we are sliding into the realm of the absurd, I'd say that 721 might be on to something here. Tying knives to his chickens might not be too far off! With genetic alteration, we could give cows dragon skin, monitor lizard teeth, hippo heads, and stiletto heels. We could make them REAL MEAN. Of course, they might be hard to round up, and those high heels might give the cowboys some ugly ideas.

Well, maybe not such a good idea.

I'm impressed with the loyalty of pit bull fans, even though I think their faith is folly.

You guys that are into this animal fight thing might be interested in this web page:
http://www.vidarena.com/index.php?video1=pit+bull&video2=wolf&action=match
I'm not sure how they decide this stuff, but you type in which animals you want to fight. I have not tried chickens...er...I mean...fightin' roosters yet.

Its my understanding that wolves usually don't do so well against critters that can grab hold of them and hang on, like cats and wolverines. Wolves were made to grab on and pull big chunks of muscle and guts out; to clip moose and deer bones and tendons in two. They can't do that very well with something that is hanging on to them. The voice at the end of the following wolf-wolverine fight sounds kinda like Marty Stauffer (sp?), doesn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ryzqw6ZPE4

You guys can find all kinds of stuff on youtube and other places. They have lion and wolf fights , tiger and bull mastiff fights, etc...... Fodder for the Romans. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Having spent quite a bit of time in Thailand, I've actually helped a friend train his "boxing hens" (as he calls them).

They sometimes use "pads" over the spurs when training and (in some fights, based upon how they agreed to the rules) they do strap on metal spurs.

Although illegal in Thailand, it is actually quite common, but is losing some popularity due to the asian bird flu scare.

Based upon what I've seen, the spurs do a lot of the "instant" damage by ripping up the birds bodies, but many roosters also die due to pecking. This usually causes a lot of blood flow into the throat of the bird, which results in choking on the blood, and/or weakness due to blood loss.

They typically pull a feather and run it down the birds throat to try and manage the bleeding and/or clear the throat of blood.

Experienced handlers/owners supposedly can listen to the injured roosters attempt to crow and tell you if the rooster will live or die. (Its a pretty grim sound. Imagine a rooster trying to crow and gargle at the same time.).

It's a very brutal sport, but the "boxing hens" seem to rather fight than do anything else (except maybe to "crow").

Dude, wake up. A wolf is still in the Canine family, a bear is a bear

Hard to tell how a wolf will fight a dog. A large wolf of Alaska weights around 155 pounds, it can easily crack moose and caribou bones to get marrow out, so it's jaw is much more powerful than most dogs. Their canines are extremely long and sharp, and they use these to slash hide and flesh or take chunks of meat from its prey. Like bears and other animals they may use their shoulders to bump another wolf of its feet, and rip the entrails out if the other animal falls on its side.

Most often they refrain from biting their prey's legs to avoid injury, but place flank attacks to slash the prey's paunch. A large slash on this area disembowels its prey and bleeds it rapidly. They also take chucks of the prey's bowels until it drops. Out in the wilderness I doubt any dog can be as smart as a wolf to survive, but I imagine that a fighting dog has a chance to win a fight with a lone wolf, even it if can't survive in the wild. But how could one catch a wild wolf and train it to fight dogs? That makes no sense to me at all, because to take such an animal out of its environment would make it as vulnerable to attacks as a brand new illegal alien in the South Bronx <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (fresh bait).

Wolves also fight bears and other animals, but they do it as a group, not alone. They slash at a bear's flank or rear while one or two distract the bear from the front without getting too close. And refrain from frontal attacks to avoid injury, the same way that the avoid frontal or rear attacks on a moose or caribou legs. As intelligent as they are, they exploit any weaknesses of their prey, and maintain the pressure of an attack until the animal tires and beds down.

Now, there have been lots of documented cases of wolf hybrids Alaska mushers used in the past, where some of these animals would kill Husky and other dogs in a matter of seconds. For example, in the book titled, "Alaska's Wolf Man," there there was a half wolf-half dog called Kenay, and this one was charged by two dogs when the musher drove his dogs to Fairbanks. The wolf dog turned on the two large dogs, and the first thing he did was to crack the front-paw bones of the first dog, disemboweled in a matter of seconds, and then killed it. The other dog ran, but he chased after it killing it.

Now, if anybody here wants to read a great Alaska book, get your hands on that book. You just won't believe how tough these old timers were, and how they could handle the most dangerous animals in Alaska. The book is about a guy named Frank Glazer. You start reading the book and don't want to put it down. It's that good. Have you watched the movie by the green and liberal Robert Redford-called Jeremiah Johnson? Well Frank Glazer was a real jeremiah and professional hunter, just a little tougher. It's a 300-page+ book, so you will enjoy reading it from page to page.

By the way, I have no connections whatsoever to the publishers or writers of this book. Somebody told me about it at an Alaska forum, and my wife put it in my Christmas stocking <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Been married for over 26 years to the nicest woman in the whole world, the most gentle soul, and beautiful inside and out. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lions/bears run from dog packs because and injury however small could be their death same as wolves. Males are at a disadvantage because of their groan. Dogs in packs circle around and try and latch on to their groan. Same for bears. Imagine a dog burying his teeth into your sack and then shaking it violently. I have seen this happen on a male bear that appeared one morning in our farm yard and our 2 shepards went to work on him. Driven by instinct I don't know why but they knew exactly how to work the boar. The bear was sitting and spinning around in circles after one of the shepards had snapped his groin. Just figured I throw in that observation to stir up the thread. Throw another log on the fire. Very interesting thread but I believe it is a never-ending story. Also I might add that Wolverines have and advantage over other 4 legged carnivores and that is their skunk like glands. They drive wolf packs away by making the meat stink so badly that no animal will eat it after it has sprayed it.

Buff if you want to talk about chickens start another thread this is about dogs, no offense intended. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

some people just dont have a clue.... even when they watch it happen they dont even know what they saw...

schmalts:
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Using that logic, grizzly bears would also have been used for dog fighting by now as well.


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How is a Grizzly bear count as a dog?? WTF?


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How does a wolf count as a dog??


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Dude, wake up. A wolf is still in the Canine family, a bear is a bear

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So apparently you interpret "dog fighting" as "canine (Canidae family) fighting"?

I must have missed that decision <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />, while I was dozing!

Actually, for what it is worth, some members of the Canidae family are not in the Canis genus (foxes, etc.).

378Canuck:

None taken, my Canadian neighbor.

Life is too short to "sqawk" about everything <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good comeback, you clever fella. Interesting discussion but dogs all come from ancient wolf stock, they go back millions of years. In caveman times wolves came to campfires for scraps and thus began the domestication process. They are the root of all dogs, they are crafty and can learn quickly. But they are designed to bring down large animals not fight within pits, the pit bull would win in the pit, no doubt in my mind. I have seen a pit bull kill a large doberman in minutes. No contest. He latched on to the throat and game over. But not in the open where the wolf could use his speed. The snap and run method would have that pit bled to death or hamstrung within short order. The pit would never be able to latch on because the wolf would avoid that ugly bear trap jaw. A wolf can run 50 miles without stopping. how far could that pit run after that wolf before he was played out. This is when the crafty wolf would make it's move.

I sure wish you fellers would figure out which one can and load up a pack of them and bring them here to Idaho cuzz one dog is not going to do it and I doubt a pack would fight together for the common cause, as the Wolf does....

But,I have an open mind and would love to see any tough dog, atleast,try.Just isn't going to happen.

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No doubt wolves can work well as a team same as lions do. Like I said before no contest in a cage, I've seen a wolf in a trap and it was all cowered up in the corner like a beaten animal with almost no will to live anymore. It actually was shaking and curled in a ball in the corner. Take them away from their family(pack) and they are hooped, they don't know how to live anymore. Even when the door was sprung open it didn't come out for 20 mins. It pissed itself and whimpered like a pup. Who in their right mind would throw in a pit bull with that poor wolf after seeing that. They would have to be some kind of mental cases.

Here's a scenario. The biggest, baddest wolf in the land decides he wants a sheep for supper. He tips to a nearby farm ALONE to get his treat. He eases down into the flock and finds himself face to face with the baddest 65 lb. pit bull in the land and decides the pit bull will satisfy his hunger. Wolf experts, How do you suppose he'll bring the little 65 pounder down. Remember, he's by himself, no other wolves will come to his rescue. My money would be on the pit bull.

The wolf will turn and run and come back later when the little 65 pounder is soundly asleep. He doesn't have to mix it up with that mutt and risk even the slightest injury, which could be his demise.

The wolf would run circles around the pit bull biting him in his the legs and arse till the pitbull bled to death. Maybe in a controlled fight that a pitbull is bred for a pit bull would win but in the wolf's home that he is bred for the wolf would win.

I partially agree, but this would be the end game after he would purposely keep the dog chasing him until he couldn't run anymore,then he would proceed with the hamstring chomp. I've seen coyote females in heat use this method on dogs to draw them out where he was dead meat because there is 6 coyotes waiting about 1 mile away in an ideal ambush site. The coyote and wolf don't vary to much in there methods of killing competition. They have been at it for millions of years and haven't been hand fed and stitched up after battles like dogs who wouldn't survive a week in the wilderness. Send your toughest dog up here in Northern Canada when it hits -40 and see if he can even get past the coyotes let alone the wolves.

It dosen't have to be -40 just take away the food bowl and most dogs will be in trouble.

Apples and oranges, tractors and corvettes, pits and wolves. The food bowl is it's lifeline that's for sure 06.

I didn't think about -40 degree temps. I've witnessed a 65 lb pit bull rip 4 coyotes new azzholes and have seen a german shepherd give two a bad day also. These southern coyotes must be wimps. Two big wolves are a different story, they win every time. I don't think a single wolf could keep biting the pit on the azz w/o getting caught.

DICK THE BRUISER is such dog.

I cant find his story as yet,but I will post it ASAP.

What an ugly dog, he is a scrapper no doubt. He has no more ears from being chewed off by other dogs. Correct? I've been to Texas area and the coyotes are about 1/2 the size of the coyotes we have around here. Same goes for the wolves. The subspecies transplanted to Yellow stone from Canada is actually the smallest and thus more manageable for Fish cops to lift and handle. (tranquilized of course) The ones I refer to are the Northern species(timber wolf) of about 20 different species/sub species, from the very rare fishing wolves of British Columbia to the larger timber wolf that stand almost 3 feet at the shoulder and are 6 feet long weighing in well over 100 pounds. They bring down moose and can kill grizzly bears in packs of course. They have canine teeth 2 inches long. Check those daggers out. Take out a tape and measure your dogs canine teeth. These wolves run from men and would rather slink away unseen then have any confrontation because they are smart animal. One swipe across the side of that soft skin dog would rip it open as easily as a shark's teeth cut through our soft skins. Even if a pit did manage to somehow latch on to one of these wolves it would not be a killing blow because the fur on the wolf neck is so thick that his mouth would be full before he got to the windpipe. This is the primary weapon of the pit and is the only way he can kill.

378Canuck,

You don't have any idea what your talking about when it comes to Pitbulls... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I guess the pit's they raise in Canukia is puzzies, cause the one's around here could give a chit about how much fur another critter has........Blake

This clip shows a lion taking on a wolf. The end of it shows how good the wolf is at fighting. Weve already seen the badger whip a wolf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrBGySKpUg4

I'd still put a wolverine up against just about any other critter on earth, they is a machine..........Blake

Blake, no doubt!

Must be pit bull owners, no sense to discussing this anymore I guess. I don't own a wolf but it sure was fun talking to you folks, not much to do -30 and snow blowing outside.

I don't own a pit, have friends that do, I do however have an Akita which is about as close to a domesticated wolf as you can get. He is a game dog and would readily take on all comers, but he would get killed by a game pit in short order.........Blake

I just don't no about this conversation.I guess I should ask...How many of you have seen Wolves in the wilds?

Now I just saw 5 a couple months ago.I don't know if they gave them steroids in Canada before they shipped them but there not the so called average weight most list..They are huge!!!!150-200 easy....Well fed I guess on Idaho Elk.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

They eat Guard dogs time after time here....Sad but true..
It just is not going to happen yet I wish it would.Kinda like the Couger running across the street with a 150 pound German Shepard in his mouth.

Jayco

My first question is,how many of you guys have seen Wolves in the wild?
My second question is,how many of you guys have seen what they do to there prey?

I saw 5 about two months ago.I don't know if they fed them steroids before they shipped 'em but there huge and un afraid of humans.150-200 pounds is my guess and the one that attacked my sons friend,came to his waist and he's not small.

Do you think that the ranchers are stupid?They eat every guard dog they put out there.Turn loose two or three of these tough man dogs in Wolf territory and they will be dead in one day.Wish it was not true but it is....

To easy to use Google and forget the little guys like the ranchers that loose there stock and dogs to the wolf...One guy told me the best wolf medicine is the 30-30 and he lost over 100 sheep and two guard dogs.

Jayco

I've seen wolf in the wild Jayco, right here in Washington State.
They are not supposed to be here, but tell that to the wolf.
Intimidating to say the least. Lethal looking critters.

Have you ever seen a pit bull in a fight to the death?

Weve been talking one one here Jayco, one on one. Pit wins hands down.

You can poopoo the videos of the wolves losing to badgers and mt lions but you can see how the wolf could easily lose to a pit.

Some years back, I've been trying to google it, there was a hiker out with his pit bull. Two young mt lions jumped the dog for an easy meal, so they thought. After finding out the pit could hold his own both lions ran off.

I have seen several wolves in the wild here in Wisconsin there is a couple packs were I deer hunt. They are a totally different animal then the wolves in zoos lots bigger and have a meaner look in there eyes. I think the guys that are saying a pit can take a wild wolf in the wild habitat a wolf lives in on a the wolf's terms have only seen wolves in zoos that or they are living in la la land.

Count me in la la land then. What does habitat have to do with it?

George Custer comes to mind.

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

George Custer comes to mind!!!!!

I'm having problems logging in to this site..So good luck and bring those Wolf eating dogs to Idaho.

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What does habitat have to do with it?

Uh, if a wolf and a pit bull were suddenly face to face high on a timbered mountain, in a howling blizzard with temperatures way below zero, neither had eaten in three days, and they were squaring off over a piece of deer carcass, do you just think the outcome might be a little different than if they were forced to fight in a little cage in front of bunch of drunken idiots?

No.

In the open a wolf can run around and use its speed in a cage it can't. In the snow and cold a pitbull won't be as well equiped as a wolf. A wolf isn't going to just dive in and fight a pitbull its going to dance around it. Float like a butterfly sting like a bee.

Yeah, like it danced around that badger and lion.
That badger took the wolf to school after a few minutes he had enough.

I don't think so. The wolf has no game to it as well.

A pit bull isn't a badger or a lion its a pit bull. Do you have a link to the video with the badger I'd like to take a look? there was a wolverine and a wolf video but a wolverine would rip a pit bull up pretty good I'd bet. Of course some guys will say why don't they use wolverines in Dog fights then.

No its not but it showed how game the wolf was not.

Excuse me I meant wolverine, not badger, same family.

It proves nothing regarding how good a wolf can fight a dog. A wolverine makes just about anything look like a wuss.

I've seen those wolverines in Alaska. Awesome looking little guys. Beautiful hides.

People just dont understand what "GAME" is.. and never will... 721

We all know the bravery and endurance of a pit bull, it is unmatched, but it also has the smallest brain of dogs and animals it's size. My neighbour had one a few miles from my Dad's place. It was so brave that it stood it's ground when a 16 wheeler ran over it. The driver said he never saw anything like it in all his life. What bravery, attacks anything and fearless.

This is about the only breed that comes to my mind.....

Link: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/komondor.htm

They're not pets, per se.

GTC

Awesome dog. If I had sheep that definetly be the dog of choice. I didn't realize how many different types of dogs there are in the world, but they all come from wolf stock. It's amazing only a few % of DNA differences can yield such an abundance of variety. Have a good day.

Hey, I'm with ya, 721! I've been thinking that buffhunter's boxing hens could really cause some damage if they had brass knuckles.

Badgers and wolverines are in the weasel family with the otter, martin, and stuff. But badgers and wolverines are different subfamilies, genus, and species. Badgers eat gofers, carrion, and stuff. Wolverines have been known to even kill young moose. They eat carrion and will take over any carcass. Yet wolverines hunt and kill a lot of their own prey. Wolverines get to 50 or 60 pounds(size of a pit bull?). Think of a 50 pound weasel.
Besides, lions and wolverines can hang on and use all their paws and claws. Dogs don't. That young wolf did what a big mature wolf probably would not do and the young wolf learned his lesson. I wouldn't want a peeved wolverine hanging onto my head, but at least I'd be able to grab onto it with my hands and try to get it away from me. A dog can't do that.

I don't think a pit bull could find a gray wolf.

Carry on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There was an article in the past year or so in the Casper Star Tribune about a breed of dog that family who lived near Cody, WY bought for just such a purpose. They bought the dogs(s) for protection against wolves. Apparently they were a very good match for a wolf as they were bred for it. Seems to me the dog breed originally came from Russia. They had a picture of it in the paper and it looked intimidating. They allowed that they had to keep it on a leash when walking it as it could not even be trusted with other dogs. The breed was very protective and loyal. The couple had young children, was worried about the wolf problem and thought this breed of dog was their answer. If you have the patience you can look through the archives at www.trib.com , but here area lot of wolf articles over the past few years.

bottom line.. Dog fighting has been going on for a long time. If Wolves were so tough, the dog fighting breeds would have looked a lot more like a wolf. They dont, because wolves are pansies compared to pit bulls and other dogs that were bred for fighting. If you think the wolf is so bad ass, you would have been one moneyless dog fight breeder. History tells a story, learn from it.

Wolves have been around for millions of years, dogs come from domesticated wolves, every trait you see in dogs come from wolves some are suppressed others bred for the kill as is your pits. They call this breeding. Now adays they call this Genetic engineering because they do it in a laboratory. If wolves needed to improove in some way to make them more efficient for SURVIVAL-nature would have taken care of that and it sure in the hell wouldn't look like a pit bull. Pit bulls are man's creation and it is F**ked as far as I'm concerned, when it comes to survival. Man created this abomination now others have to suffer (children and adult maulings) which end up in deaths in many cases. If this is inclusive of GAME I feel sorry for all your neighbours who have to live around you. Neighbours watch your children and walk on egg shells. You don't have that problem with wolves because they are a smart animal and know man is their worst enemy, who will wipe them out again in the USA. Once there all wiped out again well we can restock from Canada.

Geeze... 25" at the shoulder, 100+ lbs.... the poodles from Hell <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would disagree with you about wolves being "pansies." What happens is that wolves do not take well to training from humans. You can tame a wild wolf pup any way you want, and that wolf will always have a problem with humans around it. It may be in the genes to fear humans (I have no idea). It may not always fear its owner, but will fear strangers. But let it be in the wilderness where it belongs, and it will stand it's own against any fighting dog, bears, etc.

Personally, I have formed all my opinions on wildlife by watching Marty Stoufer videos. They are most definetly the truest representation of wild critters I have come across.
cougars running griz of kills, wolves and lions playing I mean fighting and all the cute and fuzzy weasels. I just cant figure out whats got mister wolverine in such a bad mood.
Maybe we should pose this wolf dog question to Marty.?
I personally would rather see a video of a peta member in a tag team match with a sierra club member as a partner, VS. A pitt bull with a wolf for partners. Maybe we could have it at a Nascar race?

[quote
I would disagree with you about wolves being "pansies." What happens is that wolves do not take well to training from humans. You can tame a wild wolf pup any way you want, and that wolf will always have a problem with humans around it. It may be in the genes to fear humans (I have no idea). It may not always fear its owner, but will fear strangers. But let it be in the wilderness where it belongs, and it will stand it's own against any fighting dog, bears, etc. [/quote]
Its a pansy, a candy ass, a wimp, [color:"red"] compared to bred fighting [/color] dogs that is. Point, training and taming is not something needed much from a fighting pit dog. A wolf would never stand a chance on a one on one encounter with a dog whose sole existance was for killing any other dog it was put in a fight with. Stop and think about it....
And in the wilderness if a Pit and a wolf tangled, yea, the wolf is in it's element so it would have the option of running away, and that would be what would save its ass in a one on one fight, but then again, by the time it knew it met it's match that would mean the pit bull, who was bred for large BEARTRAP like jaws was already on its neck, and that is game over for my fuzzy wolf. I will say it again, fighting dogs do not look like a wolf for a reason. Every dog breed was bred and perfected for a certain thing. The breeding was more geneticly engineered that you think and that is why all breeds look so different is because of centuries of perfection.
Wolves were perfected by evolution to kill animals that do not fight back as a general rule. They also hunt in packs for this reason. They are not perfected for fighting each other.

Really???Dominance means nothing to them,pack wise!!!

I really think you otta come see what they do and how they do it.They have eatin every protecter the ranchers have put out there and unless you no the ranchers around here..Hush about a dog taking one or any of them out!!!There lean and mean and on there own turf with there rules,only.

Jayco

There you go with that THEY stuff. THEY means a pack. THEY would all get there throats ripped out if THEY were alone with a pit instead of a pack. Little wusses compared to a fighting bred dog

Yah, the moose and elk are known to play dead when confronted by a wolf. Antlers and hooves are never used, as it goes against the ungulate code of ethics. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I was listening to the pit bull arguement up till now, but with every post, the pit bull gets tougher and the wolf is being made out to be a toy poodle. One thing is for sure, if the pit bull is/was going to take down a wolf in the wild(not a cement pit in a southern climate), it had better hope the wolf fights right away, cause after a couple days in the wild without human help, the pit will be in pretty sad shape from exposure and lack of food.

RO

I would bet the pit would become wolf poop. Wolves main enemy number one is other wolves. They kill each other all the time. Ones from different packs that is.

I was reading about fights between pits and the ovchartkas I mentioned earlier. There is no fight about it. First the ovchartka does not consider a pit a threat. If the pit will attack hard enough the ovchartka will quickly pin the pit and let it back up because the ovchartka is not a random killer. The ovchartka will be content with nocking the pit down since it is more of a pest than a threat. The winning purse will go to the pit though as it will be seen as the dog that was actually fighting.

Wolves not always hunt in packs. Wolves are just the most intelligent predators in the wild (other than humans, of course). Two wolves can chase the biggest and meanest bear away from their food, and can drop any moose or caribou (except if the caribou is on an ice pack or something like that). In such a case wolves lose their footing, while caribou don't.

But pull a wolf out of its environment, and it will be a pansy.

Now, the Dachshund in this story is the meanest and strongest of all dogs, and wolves:
http://www.benjaminshell.com/node/333?PHPSESSID=2485c2c92db5fd435943671d5eea1e53

http://www.moloss.com/

ENJOY

Wis30-06shooter pretty well summed it up. I bear trap jaw on 4 legs that can't feed itself in the wild and is not fearing fighting because men will sew up the rips and nurse him back. Wolves don't have that blessing bestowed onto them, even the slightest injury could be it's demise. Wolves are to smart even for trappers to catch. Ask any trapper and he will tell you about this crafty wild animal. I have seen a few Huskies come home dragging a trap and chain on their front leg.

Thirty years ago, when I first started to practise law, I was appointed to represent a defendant that was charged using dogs for the purpose of dog fighting. He and his brother had weekly dog fights and had two large kennels of pit bulls. Kind of interested in the subject, I asked him if any other dogs did well against the pit bulls. He said that they over the years they had tried a bunch of different animals: An individual wolf didn't stand a chance against an individual pit bull in a closed arena. The PB would latch on some place, hold tight and move towards the throat with another grip when the oppuntunity afforded itself. The only dogs he ever saw that could give a PB any fight, but still ultimately lose, was an Airdale. For what it is worth, there it is.

I think you guys are mostly "pitting" apples against oranges.

In a closed arena, yeah, a trained and bred and experienced pit bull could most likely take down a single wolf. Wolves are big animals and intelligent as all get out, but that intelligence is used to coordinate an attack by the pack. Old Indian saying - "Lone wolf make easy target".

As I think someone said somewhere in these last 228 posts, it would be like putting a really good middleweight boxer against a much bigger NFL running back in a boxing match. My money would be on the middleweight in an enclosed ring. Put that middleweight on the front defensive line in a football game and I'd bet a second rate college running back would knock him on his ass every play.

But getting back to the canine arena, if you let a pit bull go in the wild it wouldn't last a month. It would freeze and/or starve to death. They have no thick fur to insulate them and are built low and solid, which means they couldn't chase prey in deep snow worth diddly and despite their tenacity in a fight I'm seriously doubting they could keep up with an elk for miles and miles even on level, dry ground.

They are each adapted to a specific environment and in their own environment each reigns supreme. To take one out of that environment and then say that proves the absolute superiority of the other is just rigging the contest in favor of your own favorite and IMO proves absolutely nothing.

My opinion is that ONE ON ONE, elite Pittbull against elite wolf be it in a cage or outdoors the Pitbull would win everytime. Survival/predatory skills would have nothing to do with a one on one encounter, both being in prime fighting shape. Some people make it seem like the wolf would use all its smarts and tricks like Ali against Foreman but like in the lion video I think they would face off and go at each other. The Pitbull's stature will work to his advantage as will his determination and bred in fighting/killing skills. Being shorter his throat and under belly will be less vulnerable to the wolf and I'd bet the Pitt will be much faster at spinning around being short and compact. The Pitbull would get the better and by time the wolf realizes he is overmatched he will be fortunate if he can break loose to escape and likely be killed.IMO of this imaginary matchup.
While specialization is a niche thing , in that niche it is hard to beat.

I know one thing for sure about pit bulls. "If he's humping your leg, you let him finish".

Along with the Komondor, this is a breed that can and does stand up to wolves -

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/kuvasz.htm

There isn't a breed of dog out there that can or will fair well with a pack of wolves. Very rarely are they alone. There isn't a fair fight with a dog. Wolves will however, hunt your dog down if they see it. They will circle and plan and attack. I've been living with these things for a while now. Spoke to several Fish and Wildlife guys who's job it is to investigate and observe the wolves.

Elkhunter76,

the breed you are thinking of is the Karelian Bear Dog. They were used in Russia to hunt bears. Not bread for wolves but could if teamed up buy your some time should a bad situation arise.

I've see the killing power of these wolves, there isn't a dog alive that could handle it alone.

There isn't a breed of dog out there that can or will fair well with a pack of wolves. Very rarely are they alone. There isn't a fair fight with a dog. Wolves will however, hunt your dog down if they see it. They will circle and plan and attack. I've been living with these things for a while now. Spoke to several Fish and Wildlife guys who's job it is to investigate and observe the wolves.

Elkhunter76,

the breed you are thinking of is the Karelian Bear Dog. They were used in Russia to hunt bears. Not bread for wolves but could if teamed up buy your some time should a bad situation arise.

I've see the killing power of these wolves, there isn't a dog alive that could handle it alone.

DITTO!!!!!!!!

Jayco

What's a Komondor? I haven't seen one of them critters up here in Canada.

I'm not sure how much he weighed but he was a LOT bigger than any german shepard I ever saw. If I owned a pit bull, I would not have turned him loose to see what he could do. Now I've seen two Irish Wolf Hounds and they were huge, no make that HUGE! I understand that killing wolves was thier business in the past.

About 15 or 20 miles south of Watson Lake, Yukon. 2006


A pit bull would have needed a step ladder to reach this guy's throat.

I think that is most of the problem here.The 5-Wolves I saw a few months ago were huge.Waist high or higher and the big ones were over 150 pounds easy,in my opinion..They were huge..Well fed on Idaho Elk.

My dogs tougher than your dog doesn't count if you don't know or have ever seen, my dog..I saw one on Disney doesn't count.They attack and eat dogs for food(down to the bone) and there not afraid to attack humans in the process,which they have here recently.They kill just to kill and don't always eat what they kill...93 sheep and two guard dogs off the Salmon river and most were just killed and not eatin.

Jayco

No recorded man killed by wolves in Canada that I know of. These wolves must be under pressure from human activity to be so agressive. You are right about them killing and leaving domestic animals, which happens occasionally. They have super smell and can detect very small traces of toxins in organs and flesh and if it is present they will walk away. Have you ever heard about the dog trained to sniff out cancer in humans. I have seen this dog in action and he finds cancer tumors on humans easily. The wolves sense of smell is superior to even this dog. This is a theory floating around about this. The old native people talk about this. They rarely leave animals in the wild and if they do they will return in afew days when they are hungry again unless a man approaches and leaves his sent there.

Scent not sent I missed the c. I don't want a tongue lashing from the vocabulary policeman.

Awe come on..I have had my lashing's and it's your turn,now. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is what was left of Scott's dog after he returned to the scene with the Goverment trapper.He also was attacked and beat the wolf with a tree branch and his dog,saved him as he ran to his pickup but payed the ultimate price.


Wolves don't take prisoners and know how to kill and disable,swiftly.

Jayco

Poor dog. Valiant, courageous come to mind. That wolf could be rabid. The attack on humans is very odd and not natural. These wolves could be cross-bred (hybrid). In the northern part of Alberta there are some black bears that actually stock humans. This is a genic flaw of some kind and it is not the norm. Thanks for taking the time to post the photo. They probably tore that thing to bits in minutes if there were 5. Poor thing didn't have to suffer to long.

[quoteThis is what was left of Scott's dog after he returned to the scene with the Goverment trapper.He also was attacked and beat the wolf with a tree branch and his dog,saved him as he ran to his pickup but payed the ultimate price.

Jayco [/quote]

Respectfully, I heard the story differently. Here is the link.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3411043/m/171104294

Did you see a different version? Hear it second hand? Missread it? Spun it to fit your agenda?

He did not "beat the wolf with a tree branch." He hit a tree. He seemed to assume (I'd like to have him tell me more details, if he's reading) the dog purposly saved his life. I doubt it, but I wasn't there. I can only suspect the dog was pretty busy getting ripped to pieces and was not trying to save anybody. He wrote that he didn't know what happened as he was running away. He wrote that the wolf "lunged at him", which could use more explanation also. He did not write that he was attacked. Perhaps he thought so, I don't know, but he didn't write that. Pretty soon this story is gonna be just another fable where "Two wolves were on me and the rest of the pack gathered to finish me off. I felt their breath on my throat and was about to be torn asunder. Suddenly my dog, old yeller, ferociously and without fear or concern for his own life, attacked the wolves long enough for me to escape."
Now we have yet another fable about wolves attacking man.

JMHO: The guy seemed freaked out during the attack on his dogs. You can see by the story that others acted more quickly than him, telling me he was probably at least stunned, at worst in shock. That is normal. Hard to know what is going on around you when stunned.

It seems to me that we should try to give the straight facts when speaking of such things. But, that's just me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I personally would not run dogs in wolf country. I'm even hesitant to walk a normal dog where I live, as I occasionaly have wolves in my yard. I'm sure that if my dog was attacked in front of me, I'd get myself in trouble; I always carry when in the forest, or even when out of sight of my house (more about bears and moose than wolves). That's why I was interested in this thread. I'd like to get a couple of two-hundred pound stock dogs to go on walks with (I don't want to go for a walk with some game-bred pitbulls <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ); at least I'd have a bit of time to do something about the situation. A smaller dog gets killed or mortally wounded too quickly to save.

And now , the reason I visited this site today.

Question: Do you fellers feel that one of the big breeds, like the caucasians, would handle itself if a moose attacked? Would they be fast enough to avoid a rutting bull or peeved cow? I've been chased by cow moose three times. I was chased by a female black bear (with cubs) only once. Never been attacked by a wolf.


378 Canuck,
There have been rare, but proven attacks and even kills of humans by wolves. There was a recent one in Cananadania; logging camp if I remember right. I read of a recent one in Alaska where a kid (?) was pulled out of his tent by a wolf. The kid lived through that attack. Just google "wolf attack" and such phrases. Try to be objective. There is a lot of garbage out there too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Your point about wolves killing stuff and coming back later to eat it is a great one. I know they do that too. I find it strange that when, for example, wolves kill some elk on a wintering ground outside of Jellystone, folks go out and pile up the dead elk. The newspaper shows up and photos taken. It proves that wolves kill for fun, right? Folks should stay away from the kills, if possible. The wolves may come back to feed. Piling up the elk probably just causes the wolves to kill MORE elk.

That story about the bear hunters and their hounds who were attacked by a wolf pack was featured in the most recent Outdoor Life issue...from what they say, some of their dogs were literally torn apart in seconds.

Meat doesn't spoil during the winter and all the elk killed at that particular site would have fed them through the whole winter had humans stayed away. But again another blunder. If man goes there and leaves his scent, no wolf will come near that site again for along time. They probably also urinated near the site marking the territory as man territory also, which wolves will respect. Just theory but that is how a wolf functions. This is how they mark there territory and they respect each other's territory so why wouldn't it work for the most formidable/ruthless predator (humans).

DPole wrote:


Respectfully from "Grangeville Idaho" where it all happened and my son worked with Jason,Scotts son,and has been to there house with a nice trophy room!!!!!!!!Your wrong!!!!

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bring on the pit Bulls..This "Deer" will take care of them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


And That's a bear. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Imagine that in the wild with the wild!

He's Mad!!


Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Awesome pictures logcutter. One deer went through a window in a store in Banff and one of the shelf stockers thought he could take it on. After the deer almost gutted him with his horns he had to play dead to stop the beating. He ended up in hospital for a long time. Never undestimate wildlife, even a small bear can kill a human easily if it is determined or cornered. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

The story you told is pretty much the same as I read. Seems there were two guy's and one did fight off wolves getting dogs back in the truck and a dog did intercept a wolf going for the owner and paid with its life. As I recall, they rushed one beat up dog to the vet and when they returned found the other dog eaten, probally the one your holding up.

Wolves are beautiful animals but much to dangerious to live close to man. I'd hate to see them gone but at the same time I don't want them in my backyard! The morons that fight to re-plant them in the lower 48 are only signing their death warrent's.

Another strange thing about wolves is that they can adjust their litters to the amount of food available. More food =bigger litters. This is why wolves will multiply exponentially. Coyotes do the same thing, that is why we have an infestation of them here in northern Alberta, partly to blame is tree huggers and anti-gun groups. In the spring here my neighbour who has cattle, looses many calves to coyotes. They smell the after birth and come a running like the dinner bell is sounded. I have actually seen them pulling the calf out while the cow is giving birth and spinning in circles trying to defend herself against 5 coyotes. This is happening less than 200 yard from my house. I don't want to shoot because other cattle are near, so I usually call him on the telephone. This has been repeating itself every year for the last 10years and it is getting worse. Wolves do the same thing on Elk and moose when they are birthing their young. Your elk, moose and deer populations will tumble for sure.

As usual, you didn't answer my question, so I can only assume you heard the strory second hand or have read it somewhere else. I know you don't like to provide proof, as you have not backed up other info you have posted on this forum about wolves, but do you have a link with a different story? I provided a link to a cut and paste, but here is the link to the Idaho Press, where the story came from.

http://www.idahopress.com/articles/2006/06/08/news/news3.txt

I'd be happy to read about what really happened. Come on Jayco, put up!

Don,
Where did you read the story?

Here iis the part of the story that I'm talking about:

"All the while I was screaming louder than I ever screamed in my life. Without any thought I picked up a 4-foot stick, [color:"red"] stepped toward the wolf, swung and hit a tree. When the branch went crack and the tree went thud,[/color] the wolf instantly lunged at me.

I remember thinking I was going to die.
I ran from tree to tree straight up hill toward my truck. When that wolf lunged at me, I believed I would have been seriously hurt or dead if not for Blackey. [color:"red"] I did not see what took place,[/color] but what I heard was my dog giving his life to save me.

As I reached the truck, Bryon was digging around in his truck for a gun. As I ran up he started yelling, �We got wolves.� I was trying to listen to him as I was searching for a gun as I took my pistol in my hand and turned toward Bryon.

When I looked into his eyes I realized I was not the only one threatened by wolves. We headed back down to see if we could save Blackey, Lady or Halley, but there was no sound. I wanted to hear a bell dingle or a bark, but nothing. As Bryon and I hurried back to the truck to get my tracking box, I finally understood that Bryon was able to fight off three wolves and save two dogs. Snyper and Bullet were safe in the dog box with no life-threatening injuries."

It says that BYRON was "able to fight off three wolves. I'd like to hear about that!
Scott fought off no wolves, according to this story. There is nothing in this story that positively says a dog attacked a wolf or saved anybody's life.

Again, I'm just trying to sort out the facts. I know how screwed up a story can get, even in a respected newspaper. I've been misquoted in publications too many times to count.

This is a very credible story that probably cannot be proven false. We should keep it that way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good luck..They don't publish all the facts in some cases..My son heard the facts straight up from the horses mouth.Unfortuanately,this man has been threatened several times for this story hitting the press.

I suppose you don't have a clue to small towns with everyone on the same page and a mans word or handshake seals a deal.This is not meant as a flame but how can I give a link to what was said via conversation in person?

My point here is...Your relying on what you read about my backyard and the people we know here and what happened and that would be like me commenting on a disaster in your neck of the woods that I read, but you were there or talked first hand to such person without a link.

Jayco

[

I will end this right here before I get another phone call from Rick Bin.

You must work for the goverment!

Jayco

Unbelievable.... will it never end?

It ends when we die! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jayco,
Everybody works for the government!

I own an English Mastiff named Dante. 3 Years ago, while walking my dog at night...A pair of Pit Bulls attacked my Mastiff. I was confident my dog could handle a single Pit Bull, but I was not sure how this would go...I have read stories about people who died in similar circumstances. My mastiff was silent, at attention...Not barking, not growling, but very focused as the 2 Pit Bulls approached. I will make a long story short by sharing the fact, that I had to save the lives of both Pitt Bulls. My Mastiff was treating them like play toys...Picking them up, shaking them, and causing horrible injuries. If I had not stopped my dog...I am sure he would have killed both within minutes. Dante is 230 Ibs Mastiff...After seeing what he was capable of with my own eyes...I am very confident that a Enlish Mastiff (Much Larger Than a Bull Mastiff) would dispatch a wolf or 2. The problem with Wolves are they are usually in packs...So you must fight fire with fire. If you have a Pack of English Mastiffs...Your wolf problem will be gone!

Great picture of the 2 inch canines.

Can't believe a topic like this isn't at the top...... .....

Just to get it back up....this could be considered somewhat related.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/09/world/europe/09dogfight.html

Sorry...couldn't resist....

OK, I've had a hard time taking seriously anyone who claims they have a dog that could stand up to a wolf, but last night we watched "Old Yeller" do it so I guess I have to believe it.

When I was a kid I never noticed how much that wolf looked like an Alaskan Malamute.

Bring lot's of Dogs!!!!They just seem to come fron nowhere...






Jayco

no dog can hang with a wolf, wolves are killin machines!

...Dogos profit from the infusion of American Pit Bull blood. I've seen trained pit bulls who'd undergone physical training regimens that rendered them so powerful and leathal that it'd be one in a million domestic dogs that could stay alive in a fight for more than a minute or two...The pit has generations of genetic selective breeding for the perfect fighting personality,add to that correct phisical training, and these dogs are tough to beat! The Dogo is very much a large pit bull in temprement,and his breeding development mirrors that of course. AS powerful and lethal as the Dogo and Presa Canario are,against a "TRAINED" American Pit terrier,they'd do well to survive,ONE ON ONE. The "TRAINED" PitBull is EXTREEMLY quick and lethal! He knows just where he wants to set his jaws,and having set them,escape is accomplished only by giving up that part of his advesaries anatomy! Breathing,as well as providing blood and oxygen to the brain,and such fundamental life support measures,become quickly impossible. Don't confuse the TV report of a Pit Bull mauling,based as it is on his breed in character,with the much improved lethality of one of these dogs who's had proper training. Thankfully such dogs are very rare these days.......... Now, what this all means against wolves isn't much i'm afraid. In a ONE ON ONE match,i'd bet the trained Pit every time,and VERY likely win the majority of fight money,but in the world where wild wolves are normanly encountered, such a set up ain't the deal. A lone wolf? Not likely a fight against the Pit,he'd more likely high tail it, rather than risk injury,(the wolf IS a SURVIVAL expert after all).ONE ON ONE ain't his style,he'll stack the deck everytime he can!Even a well trained Pit Bull fighting dog,is lunch against "wolves",He may get a sandwich out of the deal,but he'll end up the main meal...

I happened to watch the TV program Pro's versus the normal joe or somehting like that today and watched Roy Jones Jr. play with tough guys in the ring..The moral of the story is Roy does it for a living and is very good while Wolves do the same thing day after day and the local yokals don't man or tough dog...

Wolves fight every day of there life just to survive and us rocking chair quarterbacks are talking bull pucky...

Now thats just my opinion as always.

Jayco

I find it strange that so many of you think no dogs can hang with a wolf in a fight. I question the fact that Many of you have actually seen a wolf or seen a real nasty dog breed in action?

Yes, Wolfs are big, mean, and nasty BUT, there are many breeds of dogs that are big, mean, and nasty as well.

I have a good friend that has raised two wolfs over the years and they were just like dogs. They were very similar to German Shepards IMO in build, size, and phisical characteristics. Not exact but, similar none the less.

A Pit, American Bull, Akita or some of the other large dangerous dogs could easily hold his weight against a wolf IMO. I'm not talking your every day lap dogs, I've seen some of these breeds that make your every day german shepard or Rott look like a poodle! I personally feel some of them would make a wolf their bitch one on one. Although illegal(and down right stupid), some backwoods areas still dog fight, Have any of you seen pits that were bred for fighting? I think If I had the choice of encountering some of the fight dogs I've seen and a wolf, I think I'd rather encounter the wolf.

Reloader7RM

I hate to keep this thread going but I found this Fish and Game report intersting and it applies directly to this post.A Wolf attacked and injured "two" guard dogs...I suppose there are those saying the guard dogs were poodles but most use the Mastiff as guard dogs around here.


Sorry but I thought some would find it interesting.

Jayco

You match any pack of wolves with a like number of Alaskan Malamutes and you'd have yourself a pretty good scrap, right up until the wolves lite out for easier pickins.

Now malamutes were derived from Siberian dogs, but if we call eskimos native americans, then I guess their dogs qualify too.

""If you have a Pack of English Mastiffs...Your wolf problem will be gone! ""

""You match any pack of wolves with a like number of Alaskan Malamutes and you'd have yourself a pretty good scrap""

Funny how everyone thinks they have a dog that can "hang" with a wolf. What you don't get is that these wolves are naturals a killing. Regardless of the strength or size of your dog, the wolf will win.

All you need to do is witness one attack by a wolf and you'll know what I mean.

And.............wolves usually travel in packs which seems to be something that most here are ignoring. One on one.... maybe. I would hate to have one of my labs involved as I would most likely end up in the hoosgow! One dog vs multiple wolves, not for long.

Can't believe that guy just took pictures from that treestand. Pictures are for later! That sight just infuriates me! That is the future of elk, moose and every other big game animal in WY.

well, we can only hope Wyo comes to and agreement with the rest and we can start to hunt the wolves and bring the numbers in check.

You wouldn't believe the amount of kills I saw this year alone!

A trained pitbull may be some spectacle, but if a dogo or english mastiff were given the same training, it'd be trouble for the pit I do believe...

Read about Frank Glaser - Alaska's Wolfman
LINK
Based on his experience and observations, I'd give any dog a 2:1 advantage in numbers and bring money home.

I probably wouldn't want to know. We have the cute cuddly little creatures in the mountains south of Douglas now. And even have reports of them out north in the grasslands. I really think that they should replace them back in Washington, DC and on Martha's Vineyard. They were originally there too!

<<well, we can only hope Wyo comes to and agreement with the rest and we can start to hunt the wolves and bring the numbers in check. >>

Can you explain exactly what is going on in Wyoming? I moved here last summer and damned if I can understand what just happened from what I read in the Cheyenne Newspaper.

I think the feds had agreed that in NW Wyoming outside the parks, wolves could be trophy hunted, and in the rest of the state they could be shot as predators, right?

Then the ranchers didn't like that, and last week Wyoming demanded that they be allowed to be shot in order to preserve elk herds. Since the agreement (I thought) was that they could be shot as predators anywhere except the Yellowstone area, the state was saying that even there they could be shot if they threatened elk - I guess the agreement would already allow them to be shot if they threatened cattle - is that right? And then the Feds turned that down, so it looks like it can't be resolved without going to court.

I see story after story in the newspaper that really seems confusing. Maybe if I had been following the story since the start it would make more sense. Do I have it right, or am I missing something?

Wyoming G&F wants that plan, the Feds don't like it because it doesn't guarantee recovery outside the parks. At least that's the way I remember it.

Well maybe a greyhound could hold his own but I don't know if he could out last 'em

runnin away...

You guys are nutz, this is the only dog capable of putting the smack down on a wolf, heck this breed could take 3 or 4 wolves at a time.

I think its scientific name is caninus schwarzenegous

Your friend didn't "raise" wolves -- that's conceptually impossible. What he raised were two dogs with poor domesticity genes -- about 75,000 years out of date.

Wolves are wild animals -- once you condition one to human handling you have turned them into dogs -- poor dogs, but dogs none the less.

An adult wild wolf that wanted to eat a domestic dog would turn any breed, fighting or lap, into burger in less time than it would take you to look away.

Your fantasies may vary, but they're still just fantasies.

DN

The Norwegian Elkhound has been Norway�s main dog for the last 5000 years. There primary use was and still is hunting. In Norway they are used to hunt elg (moose), bear and yes Wolves. Not only were they used to hunt wolves, but they were also used to protect livestock from wolves.

I had an elkhound when I was growing up. I don�t think she ever saw a wolf or even a coyote, but I did see her take on a nest of baby rabbits once. It was a tough one, but she came out the winner.

Here is a link that that discusses the elkhound� history with wolves. Scroll down to the wolf period portion.

http://www.ourdogs.co.uk/News/2002/December2002/News131202/norwegian.htm

The story �wolf night� might be embellished a little bit.

Here is another link that discusses the use of elkhounds for hunting.

http://www.elkhound.net/huntingelkhound.htm

Irish Wolfhound is another. It is big, fast and has tremendous endurance. Bred for wolf hunting by the Celts and unlike the Irish themselves, does not easily seccumb to whiskey and vodka.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Wolfhound

Cano-e-cano, I don't know if individual dogs can hold their own, but wolves cornered vs. wolves just looking for a meal I suspect are two completely different issues.

May not be a domestic but this dog will take of wolves.

http://www.courageouscaucasians.com/

http://elbruskennel.net/KoHistory.html


The caucasians are from russia.

The tradition is to crop thier ears so when a wolf grabs for the dogs ears it only gets a mouthfull of hair which leaves the wolf vulnerable. One wolf is not a match for a caucasian.

Also the dogs are shaggy like sheep so when the wolves come running all the sheep take off and the dog lays down til pounced on by a wolf.

These dogs are known to take on a wolf or wolves for that matter. If they are overtaken they will fight to the death.

My buddy had one of these dogs named "Conan" . His parents were brought over from Russia. The father named Czar was 220 pounds . Had cropped ears and looked like a bear not a dog. The mother was 180 pounds. Conan has reached 200 pounds at his peak.

They are loyal and faithful to family. But very distrustful if you are not family.

The dogs ears are cropped by grabbing a puppy by the ears and flinging it in the air and ripping the ears off. If the dog does not live through this it is not worth keeping. (old tradition).


This is about the caucasion:

Volkodavs are capable of killing the wolf, a leopard, a bear. AS TO THE WOLF- IT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, and with the others named, they fly into a rage... Yes, some experts mention duels of these dogs with young leopards and the same young bears, but authors are inclined to count real combat between the dogs and leopards and bears as legends. The bear is capable of killing with one blow of his paw a dog of any breed. Representatives of large cats easily cope with dogs with teeth which are the instrument of murder, and with equally dangerous claws. And last circumstance is especially important: dogs are absolutely not prepared to counter the techniques of conducting combat by cats - The impacts by the hind legs are capable of instantly opening the belly.

http://www.dogforce.com/facts_fiction.htm

Just a few more of these pages and wolves will be 100 feet tall and smashing Tokyo.

I would have bet money there wasn't a 'domestic dog breed' that could live through a fight with a wolf. But this Caucasion has put me in a totally different mind set. What a freaken hound.

I'm sure I'd want to stay on the right side of that dog. Holy schitteeerrreeeee. The really good feature is its thick long coat protecting it from a lot of bites that would tear an shorter haired Irish Wolfy to pieces. Now if it is a fierce as Airedales, you've got a wolf killer for sure. If Caucasions have the tempermanent of an Airedale (which is the only 'guard type'I'm familiar with) then, whoah to pissing that dog off.

I hear certain types of domestic cats give them stomach aches, and the runs...

Wolves are pack animals -

How may dog's you planning on buying.

If you get 4 make sure one's a begal, that way he can sneak under the dog pile and take out privates of the wolf.

Spot

What a gift! One of my all-time favorite campfire threads, resurrected one year after I thought it had died.

Now let's sit back and see how many more people will brag of owning dogs that can kill a wolf. Muledeer hit the nail on the head with his commment about fantasies (but come on, they're so much fun)

I'd have to agree with you....after seeing what runs around my chukar country of late. Never have seen one but I've heard them. Seriously, take a look at those Caucasions dogs and then compare them to the picture.

Does this compare?

Wolf that saw his first caucasion.

Does this compare.
This is a puppy still






Asian art

PACK OF CAUCASIANS

+1 on that wolf outwaiting the pit bull for dinner. Or coming back with some help.

The wolf has to find it's supper. A dog knows it will be fed.The wolf intends to cheat, surprise, outnumber, and "outwolf" its opponents from go.

Obviously mankind can spend a couple of hundred years breeding and training pit bulls to do what is essentially a controlled game with rules. It is not the same. You end up with gaming dogs that can get themselves in trouble when they play the game they have been taught outside the arena.

Hounds have been bred for and taught to play a game too. Within the game they are likely superior to wolves.

The wolf will not willingly get torn up so bad that it can't get it's next meal. At least not more than once. Their breed figured that out a long time ago.

I hesitate to talk about wolves when they are run by hounds as I haven't seen it.

I have seen the youtube video with the two coyotes running the wolf off from their denning grounds so I believe it is real similar to how it works with coyotes.

A coyote is not a coward. It runs from packs of dogs because it wants to stay healthy. That's why the dogs stay in the packs. Every once in a while a yound hound will get out ahead and catch up to a coyote and get it's ass kicked.

It comes back with a look that says "Boss the coyote quit playing the game. I barked. It didn't run what's up?"

A coyote that thinks it can will kill a dog. A big dog can kill a coyote but generally get's slashed up by a coyote in the process.

A shorter, compact long haired stock dog [dingo/shepard cross] works well to den coyotes by entering their den and fighting the parents and killing the pups. They get trained to kill by using them a s trap dogs.

As to discussions about bite strength. Coyotes and I believe wolves mostly slash when they fight. Only biting when they want to crush something as biting gets you tied up in a way that can get you hurt. Hence the long snouts and exaggerated canines. Pretty true of the design manual on sight hounds too.

Now when these hardy's get tpo eating bones they put it in the back of the jaw where the forces are better suited for the work.

Pit bulls [a big part of this thread so far], bulldogs, mastiffs,
etc tend to have shorter jaws and consequently more strength with the front of their jaws. I imagine because their plan is to grab a throat or nose and hang on and hang on.

Cats and Weasels will bite the neck from the back and try to pierce the CNS or bite from the front and gut their prey with their rear feet.

What I see several of us trying to say is that the motives and methods are quite a bit different between wolves and dogs. Further that if you set the game up by staging a fight or contest with outside influence on the surroundings some of us believe the results can be predicted with near cetainty. So do the wolves. They call it hunting.

+1 on that wolf outwaiting the pit bull for dinner. Or coming back with some help.

The wolf has to find it's supper. A dog knows it will be fed.The wolf intends to cheat, surprise, outnumber, and "outwolf" its opponents from go.

Obviously mankind can spend a couple of hundred years breeding and training pit bulls to do what is essentially a controlled game with rules. It is not the same. You end up with gaming dogs that can get themselves in trouble when they play the game they have been taught outside the arena.

Hounds have been bred for and taught to play a game too. Within the game they are likely superior to wolves.

The wolf will not willingly get torn up so bad that it can't get it's next meal. At least not more than once. Their breed figured that out a long time ago.

I hesitate to talk about wolves when they are run by hounds as I haven't seen it.

I have seen the youtube video with the two coyotes running the wolf off from their denning grounds so I believe it is real similar to how it works with coyotes.

A coyote is not a coward. It runs from packs of dogs because it wants to stay healthy. That's why the dogs stay in the packs. Every once in a while a yound hound will get out ahead and catch up to a coyote and get it's ass kicked.

It comes back with a look that says "Boss the coyote quit playing the game. I barked. It didn't run what's up?"

A coyote that thinks it can will kill a dog. A big dog can kill a coyote but generally get's slashed up by a coyote in the process.

A shorter, compact long haired stock dog [dingo/shepard cross] works well to den coyotes by entering their den and fighting the parents and killing the pups. They get trained to kill by using them a s trap dogs.

As to discussions about bite strength. Coyotes and I believe wolves mostly slash when they fight. Only biting when they want to crush something as biting gets you tied up in a way that can get you hurt. Hence the long snouts and exaggerated canines. Pretty true of the design manual on sight hounds too.

Now when these hardy's get tpo eating bones they put it in the back of the jaw where the forces are better suited for the work.

Pit bulls [a big part of this thread so far], bulldogs, mastiffs,
etc tend to have shorter jaws and consequently more strength with the front of their jaws. I imagine because their plan is to grab a throat or nose and hang on and hang on.

Cats and Weasels will bite the neck from the back and try to pierce the CNS or bite from the front and gut their prey with their rear feet.

What I see several of us trying to say is that the motives and methods are quite a bit different between wolves and dogs. Further that if you set the game up by staging a fight or contest with outside influence on the surroundings some of us believe the results can be predicted with near cetainty. So do the wolves. They call it hunting.

Sorry I am having a runaway computer.

Do you walk your dog in the woods? Unarmed?

Good luck with that...

DN

I find it amusing about all the macho dogs that are supposed to be wolf killers. I live in Montana where there are real wolves and wolf hybrids.

One of these wolf owners left a wolf unattended in the back of his truck while in at a bar enjoying a beverage. Another bar patron asked if there was someone in the bar that owned a wolf. The proud wolf owner spoke up claiming the ownership of said wolf.

The other patron said how he was sorry that his dog had killed the wolf. The shocked wolf owner asked what kind of a dog the other guy had. He told him his dog was a Chihuahua. The question was asked "how could your Chihuahua kill my wolf"? Answer: He choked on him!

One on one there are probably a few breeds that would hold their own, none better than the Anatolian Shepherd. Wolves, leopards, and bears are what it guards the herd against, as opposed to some herding breeds it is a guard breed. Historians believe this breed may be 6000 years old so it's instinct is very strong.It is close in size to a wolf 100-160 pounds.Multiple wolves against
one dog, dog is dinner. The one breed that I would never want to get sideways with is the Dogo Argentino, see Accurate reloading post about the Dogo killing the Puma. When we hunted Black Bear in Quebec, they kept a German Shepherd Dog (not German Shepherd)
to keep the wolves away, our outfitter told us the wolves didn't want anything to do with him.Just my opinion.

The Anatolin shepard looks impressive also.

-------------------------------

The Caucasian is also an ancient dog breed.

Some more info I found on the caucasian.

Ovcharka�a.k.a Caucasian Shepherds�are used to hide amongst sheep in herds. A pack of wolves (3 or 4) will attack the sheep, not noticing the Ovcharka, and the dog may fight a couple wolves at the same time.[citation needed] The fur is several layers and thick making the wolves teeth unable to reach its flesh.[citation needed] They are loyal to their duty in protecting their flock and family and will stand by and defend through any circumstance. Unfortunately they are often misrepresented as being dangerous and violent, when in fact they are not unless there is a threat or a perceived threat to family and home.

Powerful and massive, the Caucasian Ovcharka can prove to be a difficult breed for an inexperienced owner, because it respects and obeys only those dominant members of the family that it deems superior to itself. They are generally good with children, but will not see them as their masters. The dog develops a strong bond with its owner but will rarely be completely submissive and blindly follow orders, for this is truly a thinking dog which relies primarily on its own instincts, sometimes even disregarding its master's directions in certain situations. A breed with a very quick reaction time and lightning-fast protection reflexes, it has even been unfairly described by some as somewhat of a "loose cannon". With proper care, handling and training, this is a well-behaved and obedient family companion.

Take care to ask the owner before touching as these dogs are not 'big teddy bears' to be run up to and cuddled. A well behaved Ovcharka will merely take a step back and avert their head; this is a good behavior as these dogs are not Golden Retrievers in their temperament towards everyone.

Okay, I do not have wolves near here, but we have lots of Coyotes, stray Rotts/Pits (bad economy, people turn em loose)bear, etc.

I have a flock of sheep, and have 3 Anatolian Sheps here that guard and live with them.

If you have never seen these dogs work with their flock, and together, then you will understand that against a pack of wolves, you can not send a pack of pitbulls, you must send a pack of LGDs (Livestock Guardian Dogs).

These dogs were bred and designed for this fight. Most LGDs will avoid the fight and try to use every way possible to move the predator/intruder from his 'zone'. They have 2 areas usually, the Outer perimeter, which they usually walk once or twice a day, and the inner. Anything approaching the outer, will get a bark, but nothing serious. Anything getting inside it will get their full attention, but once in the final zone, the Anatolians cease their barking, and the fight is on.

They have killed countless coyotes, and I know coyotes are not a big deal, honestly, but they literally pick them up, and shake them really hard once, and break their backs. Then they usually eat them (saves on dog food bill).

Mine have also killed pitbulls. Pitbulls are some hard headed fools, you know that? There was 5 of these strays (They had that look about them) and 2 were pits, and the other 3 were some mutt looking things, but we heard our LGDs barking like crazy, which meant something was getting to close, and we looked, and saw the pack. One of the pitbulls put its head under out electric fence wire, and our biggest male jerked him under the fence and killed him in less than 2 seconds. Pitbulls do not realize the danger of our LGDs, and only see the sheep, and if they are dumb enough to try to come under the fence, they get 1) shocked 2) killed. It is no contest, ever.

Anatolians are very powerful animals, extremely fast, and work in packs very well, something pitbulls do not do.

Generally, one or two will engage in the front of the threat, and the other circles...just like a wolf, right?

I have never suffered a sheep or lamb loss with my dogs on watch, and we live in Bear country. Strays, coyotes, foxes, Bears. I know we have some bears who come down to our farm, we see the tracks, but they never go deep into the pastures, and I think it has a lot to do with the dogs.

I am not DOUBTING that a pitbull would kill a wolf or any other dog in a setting favorable to it, like a pit? However, I also dont think a pitbull would fair that well in a fight in another dogs setting, or for that matter a wolf.

1 on 1 sure, but Wolves hardly ever operate like that, and I dont think 4 pits would take out 4 wolves either. I would put my 3 LGDs vs those 4 wolves first, and I am not sure my 3 would come out on top, but they were bred for over 5000 years for doing this job, so I am going to assume they would have a better chance than those 4 pits would.

Tough defending against an animal that kills to survive when the defender has had that bred out of him/her. There are some dogs I would want at my side and probably a presa canario(1/2dozen maybe against 1 wolf ) or a filo brasileiro or a few anatolians but not much else I think could stand up to a pack of those animals. In any event hopefully they can raise enough ruckus to get a human or 3 in the fray and hopefully with loaded weapons.

The most impressive account I remember reading about was by a British author who was camping with friends in the African bush (Kenya) in the 1950's. One of the locals had a female English bull terrier with him ( they were popular as hunting dogs over there back then) when it started barking and growling at something in the darkness just outside the light of the campfire.

Before the owner could grab the dog, it had darted off into the darkness..Within in a minute or two, a terrible terrible fight broke out and the guys were convinced the dog was being set on my a leopard or similar. After several minutes all went quiet untill the heard a noise of something pushing through the bush.

It turns out it was the bull terrier and it was dragging the body of a dead hyena! The dog was in pretty poor shape itself, but did survive, but to kill an adult hyena in a one to one fight was a terrific and completely unexpected accomplishment.

Having said that, back then the English Bull terriers still have fighting blood in them and weren't the darlings of the show ring they are today..

15 "bred to fight" pits vs a pack of 8 wolves. Who wins? Obviously the wolves will be more familiar with pack mentality but let's assume the pits have been stray for 3 months, have gained pack mentality and are well nourished.

3 months does not cancel out 100,000 years, sorry.

I have read a few reports of 3 Anatolians fighting off packs of 5 wolves in Turkey, and suffering no losses, and killing 1 or 2 wolves.

Pit Bulls, out in the open, which is NOT their strong point, would not have an advantage. LGDs would, but again, its all about which setting we are talking about, and since this is a hunting forum, I was assuming that it was out in the open.

The turks use their LGDs in groups of 3. Of course bigger flocks demand bigger packs of dogs, but for a flock of 100 they like to use 3, and these dogs are alone with the sheep for 6 months at a time usually, and come back with very few losses, and new lambs. That is not an accident.

The dogs will eat dead sheep/lambs, eat up all afterbirth, and work so good as a team. Protecting their sheep are their entire life, and they are very good at it, and if they were not good at it, I do not think people allover the world would use them for such.

My dogs take shifts watching. It really is amazing. All three are out there, and have full access to whatever area they are in. 1 will be on duty during the day, while 2 are in the shelter or under a tree sleeping. As the sheep move, the one moves with them, and if he starts to drift to far from the other 2, he/she will bark, and the other 2 will get up, and move with them again.

They do herd, but they herd for their benefit, in order to move the sheep to a place that is easier to defend. I got no shot of ever teaching them to herd for me, because they have such low prey drive (unlike a border collie, which has high), and are highly independent thinkers.

If a threat appears, 1 dog will zig and zag back and forth to move the sheet to a corner area of the pasture, and then stand in front of them. The dog knows the threat will have a harder time getting to the sheep that way. While one or 2 two dogs are herding the sheep, the others are out further watching the threat. Once the sheep are considered 'safe' the three will then advance together on the threat, that is NOT something a pitbull can learn in 3 months. Pitbulls are trained to fight as individuals, and that is how they will fight. It would be like Gladiator fighters vs Roman Cohorts. 1 on 1, the gladiator wins, but 10 on 10, the Cohorts would probably win, as they train and operate as a unit.

There is a family near me who owns about 20 sheep, but once had over 100, and lost them to stray dogs. Dogs like to chase them for fun, but the sheep have heart attacks from the fear.

I have never suffered a loss, ever. I have seen my dogs in action, and you would need wolves for sure to have a chance to get one of my sheep, and they better be on their A game, or else they will get turned into dinner. Our local Coyote population is well aware of our dogs, but every year 1 or 2 gets stupid enough to try to get a meal of mutton. These coyotes live no less than 2 miles from me, and 99% of the time, steer well clear of our farm.

So, in the Wolf's world, use LGDs to fight them, that is what they are for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsFmPnRSRT4

This is in serbian, but the dog was hardly 'losing' in this fight. That is a small LGD also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55vyYa1_1Uk

LGds offing 2 more wolves in this video.

LGDs can kill a wolf, will kill a wolf if forced to, and have on may occasions done so. They have been doing their job for 5000 years, if they could not do the job, then I think they would have been fired a long time ago.

Those of you who say a Domestic Dog can not kill a wolf obviously no little about LGDs, or refuse to accept any evidence why they are out there doing the job.

Like to have a few of those!

I did nto see this post, but yes, these dogs are some bad bad dogs. They ahve been bred for the wolf figh, and their body is built for it (with thick skin, and fur the way itis). They are such great LGDs, but not good for all parts of the world. I live in a pretty hot area, with cool winters, so they are not an option, but would be my first choice for LGD, Anatolians my 2nd. I went with my 2nd cuz of the tempature issue here, and will nto ever regret it, but the Ovcharkas are ruthless with wolves, and have plenty of confirmed one on one kills in Russia.

If you are looking for a dog to HUNT wolves, LGDs are not that dog. If you want to find a dog to protect your life vs one, LGDs will easily fill that role.

As much as I don't doubt that LGDs/Anatolians can and do kill wolves, I would make two comments..

1) The first video clip is undoubtedly stagged, and those dogs are not fighting for real...

2) The North American Timberwolf of Canada and Alaska will typically weigh significantly more than its European cousins, especially those strains from the more central and southern parts of Europe, such as Turkey, Greece and Spain ect..

Interesting thread here. We have people discussing fighting dogs against wolves, other dogs etc, and no one protesting. we all love a good fight right? Everyones dogs are super hardcore I am sure, but none of them will beat a real gamebred APBT in a fight, period. And of course if you could get one wolf to fight one, I'd give up 80lbs, that is to say let a 40lb bulldog get it on with a 120 lb wolf without a second thought. Good luck finding one wolf to fight your dog though. I find the "pack of pitbulls" stories highly amusing too. Calling those dogs pitbulls is like calling Irish Wolfhounds "wolfhounds" what you have in both cases is some kind of dog that looks the part, but what makes bulldogs, wolfhounds, LGD's, huskies, etc (basically any dog with a J-O-B job) isn't looks, its what's on the inside. Keep your dogs away from wolves if you want to keep them, and don't let the USHS get wind of this thread or they'll shut down the board and pay your neighbors 5000 dollars apiece to turn you in for "intent" to fight dogs against something.

Wolves from Russia are not small though, and the 2nd clip is legit. I looked at the first one again, I agree, looks staged, and the wolf is smallish, but the dogs there were bred to match the size of the predators. LGDs in Russia are built for big wolves and bears.

LGDs, if they are lucky, the fact that they are there in force, prevents them ever getting the oppurtunity to fight that which they wre bred to fight.

I only responded to this thread for the fact that, out in the open/wild(s) I would NOT put any amount of Pit bulls vs wolves. They would lose, and lose badly. I would however put some $$ that LGDs can hold their own if they are from good lines, and are actually LGDs. An Anatolian who is a house dog may have the instinct, but also has a soft life. My dogs life is not exactly soft. They work 24/7/365. and the ones in Turkey are even worked harder. They are put out in the mountains for 3-12 months at a time without any humans around. These dogs are semi-feral, as they hunt for themselves, and make their own decisions out there. That requires a certain amount of intelligence, something pitbulls lack a lot, and something I think that would cost the pit bull its life in the a world the wolf is used to

The people who put those poor Great Pyrs out there have to remember, that the wolves in North America are much bigger than they are in Spain/france, where the Great Pyr was bred to fight them. You better come with more than 2 LGDs if you live out west, or the results will be bad.

I live in the Smokey Mountains. No wolves, just an over abundance of smart Coyotes and Black bears, and strays...lots of those. Because of my location, I can have 3 Anatolians, and suffer no losses. I also have many small pastures, not one big one, which lets the dogs patrol easier, and react to problems much faster. Anatolians are VERY fast, can hit 35 MPH sustained (They run with me nex to my ATV sometimes, only way I know that). They also are very strong. You can see exactly why they are used for the job they do, but they will not win any obedience trials, because they are bred to be independent thinkers, and make decisions without a human there.

However, if I lived in Idaho, I would come with no less than 6 LGDs. I can stock 5 sheep per acre here. There, you need 10 acres per 5 sheep, or more. There is to much room to cover for 2 LGDs, and if you have that big fo a flock (he lost many lambs if I recall), then you already are setting your dogs up for failure. the Great Pyr did not fail, the owner of the sheep failed. His dogs were toast before the fight started.

My pastures are 1-3 acres each. My dogs EASILY handle that, and sometimes will only have 1 on duty while the others sleep (not sure how they figure out who does what, but they always have ONE out there). At night, even with the sheep locked up, they are very active on the perimeter.

So, again, LGDs are the dogs I am betting on. I have had Rottweilers, and my Rotts got nothing on my LGDs. They are not even on the same playing field with their pack mentality. My rotts would be lunch in 2 seconds flat, I know that to be true. No matter how big and bad people think they are, they are still just Rottweilers, not wolves. LGDs are dogs, but they are dogs bred to match that wolf.

he is right, last thing I want is my LGDs going toe to toe with a wolf (or a bear). However, in the wofl setting, go ahead, get your pitbulls, and send them after the wolves, and bring the body bags, cuz I am sure the pitbulls would be dead.

If the fight is in a pit, then sure, I put my $$$ on the Pitbull. Its all about the setting the fight would be in. Wovles dont fight alone usually, so its silly to put a 1v1 fight up there. As the nubmers of the packs grow, so do the odds vs the pitbulls winning.

In eastern Oregon we have a healthy supply of predators to contend with and now we can add wolves to the list. We've been looking for just what you good folks have been describing in the Anatolians and �arplaninac.

Are these two breeds typically trustworthy around small children?

I know little about Sarps, but every other lGD breed I am aware of thinks of the humans who own them as part of their flock, and guards them the same way, so I would assume that Sarps are like that.

All LGDs are also known for their love of babies of all species. There is countless stories of Great Pyr keeping baby lambs/goats warm cuz the mothers abandoned them, and the owner finding dog and baby cuddled together.

All my dogs LOVE my son, and treat him very delicate, but when he or my older kids are out, they watch them very close. My kids go into the pasture a lot, and play with the sheep/goats, and the dogs do not ever bother, because they think of the family as part of their flock, so there is nothing to worry about.

They seem to think ALL kids are theirs...lol.

Once in my early twenties,I went on a deer hunt in west Texas.
The owner had a big ole Great Pyrenes that scared me to death when I first got to the place.

The rancher had bought him when his kids were smaller to watch them as well as his sheep and goats.

My first evening there,I saw a big buck right behind the barn and planted myself there for a week to hunt him.

The rancher introduced me to the dog and the big old dog 'adopted' me. He would sit by my side for hours as I waited for the buck.

I would try to run him off,but he would not leave. It actually a pretty secure feeling knowing a 175 pound dog has 'got your back'.

This dog had killed a pile of coyotes and kept lions from taking a single sheep or goat on the place for a long time.

He absolutely lived to watch and guard animals and people with a singleness of purpose that I have not seen in more modern breeds.

When my lab hangs out with me,it's because he likes my company and he needs me. That big Pyrenes was different,he hung out with me because he wanted to protect,you can just feel it when you're with them

we had a meter reader here in town kill two pits with his bare hands when they jumped a fence and attacked him.so if two pits can't take down a 175# man that keeps his witts about him when attacked. i doubt they would fare well against a wolf

Oscar Meyer, my wiener dog could hold his own, at least for the first couple barks. LOL

Seriously, I don't think any domestic dog could handle a full-grown wolf. If the dog happened to be successful, it would not be pretty and probably come with a high vet bill. I don't think its humane to purposely put a domestic dog in that situation.

Lou

I don't think it would be humane either. My philosophy is not to rely on a single dog but on several to not only protect the livestock but give ample enough warning to bring either myself or my wife and children around to convince the predator to find another locale. Who knows...for one or more preds (coyotes, wolves, cougar, etc.) to come upon my family or livestock whilst being babysat by four or more Sarps might be just the ticket to avoid a bad day for both of us.

Some years ago, duck hunting in Saskatchewan, one of the other hunters had his black lab killed by a wolf that went after a downed bird.

But sheep herders have bred dogs to protect sheep from wolves. Usually, these dogs work in teams. We had an 80-lb English shepherd that would run down a coyote or fox and kill it. More stamina and way more speed than either predator. Tangled with a pack of feral dogs and left 4 of them on the ground, ready to be finished off. Just came to the house and fetched us to come see.

I later had a large working English shepherd, a male, 100-lbs lean muscle for a cattle dog that was very smart and they are very quick at dodging another dog. They have a thick coat, especially a mane. Mine killed a large doberman pinscher which came into our yard, which is a territory no-no for these working dogs. It took about 20 seconds. My dog was only lost one bite of hair before breaking the doberman's neck, shaking it like a rag doll.

then please tell me, why would the people of the middle east breed dogs for over 5000 years to do that exact job?

Do you not find it a little arrogant of you to tell people of these areas they are wrong, and have been doing it for nothing for 5000 years, cuz there is no way they can win?

Remember, these dogs are best in groups of 3 or more (sort of like a wolf pack), are powerful (Mastiff strong, but much more lean and quick), very smart and built for that one fight.

you are basically saying that Spaniels can not fetch ducks from the water, Dobermans are bad watch dogs, so LGDs must not be able to protect their flocks?

if they were such push overs, then they would not be out there, period. If they were not capable of the job, then the wolves would eat them. Go google kangal dog.

I know my dogs, and yes, they have never met a wolf, but there is no feral pack that can hang with them here, not even close. My 3 dogs would hold their own vs 3 wolves. I may lose some, or all, but the wolves would also lose some or all. My dogs do their job without fail, and have killed more than their share of feral dogs/strays/coyotes, without any damage. A wolf would know better than to try. They may indeed be able to win, but they respect these dogs enough to move on to something easier.

"then please tell me, why would the people of the middle east breed dogs for over 5000 years to do that exact job?"

Perhaps they did, but that doesn't mean it's humane or the dogs weren't seriously injured; I am sure they rushed their injured dogs to the local vet. Moreover, we are culturally much different than those folks you are referring to, and we have other alternatives.

I have had at least one Doberman at any given time for the past 25 years. They're a great watch dog, but I would purposely put it in a position likely to meet up with a wolf, cougar, etc. I am not willing to take that risk with a family member; my dogs aren't disposable.

To each his own. If you chose to do that with your dogs, so be it. I promise I won't call PETA. Lou

the irish wolf hound was bred to kill wolfs thus the name

PETA has no leg to stand on, because the alternative to the dogs, is me shooting the predators, and I know they do not want that. Most ARA groups actually propose putting LGDs out there, rather than the ranchers putting holes in their beloved wolves.

The dogs are sort of like Peacekeepers, and generally, as long as the owner has sufficient dogs/animals/acres you should have no issues with livestock loss or dog loss.

I have seen dead coyotes, strays, racoons, skunks etc. Although, I will say this, the longer we stay there with the dogs, the less I see corpses out there. This means that the local wildlife is becoming aware of the dogs there, and have decided if they value their life, they will steer clear of my pastures, and that means I wont kill them, the dogs wont kill them, and they can live. Its a win/win for everyone, and the dogs are accomplishing their goal.

Remember, I do not live in wolf country, but I do live in bear country. I would like to know what 'other alternatives' a rancher in the west has though, that is as effective as LGDs other than poisoning/hunting, which is the only one that I think would be as effective.

The IWH of today is not the same one as was raised to kill wolves 100s of years ago.

Before I get into this I want to express that NONE of what I am about to say are speculations.
I have been active in the fight against organized dog fighting for 30 years.
I have participated in busting these so called "tournaments" which are nothing more than sick games for psychopaths. Anyone who takes pleasure in animals of any kind suffering is one step away from being a human murderer.

What I have seen in my many years of busting dog fighting rings is that for the most part only so called fighting breeds are used. I said for the most part because there are also many "novelty" matches where a fighting breed such as a pitbull, Tosa Inu or Perro De Presa is matched against all kinds of other species...
Most often the wolf is used for these spectacles. The motivation of course is the age old question about who would win in a one on one fight.

I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty and without any speculation on my part that the wolf NEVER wins under these circumstances.
Novices are surprised when they hear what true dog men have known all along. Now please don't get me wrong. Being an animal lover and activist I am not here to diminish the wolf nor the dog... I am just here to share my real life discoveries with those of you who are speculating and are interested in finding out the truth to the question posted.
Indulge me if you will...

Nature made the wolf while man made canis familiaris.

When you look at natural K9s then you will see that the wolf has NONE of the shortcomings man made breeds suffer from. Nature knows best when it comes to creating a perfectly functioning member of the wild.
In order to create the perfect survivor there has to be balance. A survivor has to be well rounded and needs many different skills...

A Warrior dog does not need many different skills... It needs but ONE.
A survivor is NOT a warrior. It is a different talent altogether.
A survivor K9 has to be a good hunter with a keen sense of smell in order to find food. He has to be able to run fast enough to catch prey so he can eat and has to be SCARED enough to run from ANY confrontation not crucial to survival.
Since there are no vets in the wild a wolf could die even from a small wound which will go untreated...

A warrior K9 is a SPECIALIST at combat. It matters not if the warrior is a good hunter because his human will feed him. It matters not that the warrior has the best nose in the world because he does not need to find or hunt prey. It matters not if the warrior dog gets injured during a fight because vet care is available if his human cares to give it... The ONLY thing that matters is that the warrior is superior at ONE task... Fighting.

It is like comparing a trained human survival specialist to a UFC fighting champion...
Drop off the UFC champion in the jungle with no food or help and he will die a certain death. Because fighting is his only skill he simply does not have the tools to make it in that environment.
The survival specialist has all the skills needed to survive... Tough enough to fight for his life, knows what animals to run from, what animals to eat, how to kill them and how to find a way to maintain.
But...
If you put that survival specialist up against a UFC champion in a cage match then he is going to be beaten to a pulp.
I believe that both talents deserve equal respect...

I know that novices believe that the wolf is superior to all breeds of dog at every single task but... This is simply not true.

Canis familiaris has been specialized by man in order to make a particular breed superior to the wolf at a particular and SINGULAR task.
The greyhound is faster than the wolf...
The bloodhound has a better nose than the wolf...
The mastiff is more powerful than the wolf and so on...
But the all around best survivor is the wolf because he lives or dies based on his all around skills... Not just a singular one.

When man decided to "improve" on nature he did the following...
Let's say that we want to produce a dog that is a better fighter than the wolf then this is an easy task...
We start breeding for courage, skill and power above anything else... If we don't have to worry about creating an all around survivor then one single and extremely magnified skill will be our focus.
We eventually end up with a dog that will defeat the wolf in one on one combat but this warrior dog will not be on par with the wolf when it comes to surviving. It will beat the wolf at this one singular task but will be inferior in many other aspects.

If a well bred Tosa Inu was dropped off in the wild the dog would have almost zero chance of survival. Because man created a dog unafraid of anything. A dog that doesn't retreat will get injured even if he wins the fight. In the wild even a small injury that goes untreated will cause death.
The Tosa is NOT a survivor and cannot compete with the wolf on wolf territory.

If you put the wolf in a cage with the Tosa Inu the wolf has almost zero chance of survival because now the wolf is on Tosa territory.
Again... This is no guess on my part. In all of my years of trying to wipe out the inhumane atrocity called dog fighting I have never seen a wolf that survived against a true member of a fighting breed one on one.

A wolf NEEDS to have a certain amount of fear in order to avoid fights which are not important for survival. A dog which has been bred to be more brave, aggressive and powerful than a wolf will engage in fights which are not important for survival because the dog does not have the fear (survival instinct) to make it run when it should.

The reason why man made such a dog is also simple...

A wolf would not make a great guardian for man because he would only protect to a point. As soon as the wolf realizes that he could get seriously hurt then his survival instinct (fear) will kick in and he will run away leaving his human to fend for himself.
This is no guess on my part either. Being a complete K9oholic I have many friends who live with, protect and some even breed wolves. These people love and understand the wolf for what it is rather than what novices THINK the wolf is...

A dog which has been bred to be more brave and powerful than the wolf will continue protecting his human above and beyond what a wolf would or could do.
So for human needs the trade off makes sense...
The dog might not be as great a survivor in the wild but a much more effective guardian and protector for man than the wolf could ever be.

So while man improved on a certain aspect of the K9 species another part inevitably diminished.

I hope I was able to logically convey my experiences in regards to the original question. In closing I want to say one more thing...
I truly hope that this question was not based on someone having the desire to see a dog fight of any kind. People like Michael Vick and any dog fighters like him are mentally ill. It is a fact that every single mass murderer in history started out torturing and killing animals before moving on to the bigger "thrill" of killing humans.
Please...
If any of you ever come across information regarding people who fight dogs then please do the right thing. Report them to the authorities immediately.
Thank you for reading this admittedly long winded response.
Bless you all...

Lionman
Excellent answer!

+1. It is always nice to get answers based on facts.

270 Winchester that dog will hold its own. S.S.S.

Here's a picture of our Irish Wolfhound - the breed that wiped out the wolves in Great Britain.

Ours is a lean 180lbs. He's 35.5 inches at the shoulder. He's fearless. His name is Dunnigan.

Cool dog,Brian...I am a dog fanatic and have two(Lab and Aussie Shepard)..I doubt I would want you chow bill though...

Cool...

Jayco

Will English Shepherd's hunt grouse (Partridge)?

I don't know. But my English Setters sure will!

I had a Shepherd type dog when I was a kid, and I never knew exactly what breed it was. He sure resembles the English Shepherd and had all the traits of this breed. He was the best pal in my life and no dog in our rural area could whip him. He chewed two up so badly they had to be put down, but he weighed only about 40-50 lbs.

Was in LA a year or so ago, walked into an optics shop and saw the biggest pit bull I will ever see. Head like a basketball made round by those huge masseter muscles, this guy had the equipment to out-dual a wolf. I bet he was 150 lbs. I think the question more often for a dog like this is does it have the accompanying temperament to do the job.

My grandpa, was a wolf fer as well as many other things. He used Wolf hounds, grey hounds, and other hound dogs to run wolf. The grey hounds would catch up and bay them, the other dogs would show up and sometime kill the wolf before my grandpa, riding horse, would show up.

You have all missed the dog breed that can best hold a wolf at bay - the Chihuahua. As an inside dog, it will never even meet a wolf.

They also get stuck in a wolf's throat and choke them rather quickly.

Haven't read the whole thread yet but so far I've seen a lot of theories about dogs that could kill "A" wolf.
Now the problem with that is wolves don't normally hunt/live/fight alone. So unless your chosen breed will work with others, just like a wolf pack does, then your chosen breed will be toast in no time.

For me a mixed pack of two or three fox terrier/Aussie cattledog crosses, a mastiff/pitty cross (if you can find one with brains), a couple of greyhound or whippet/collie/airedale crosses and a heeler/collie cross would be the most likely bunch to take on a wolf pack and have a chance of coming out even or ahead of the game.
The foxy/cattledog has brains, guts, agility and stamina.
The mastiff/pitty has brawn and absolutely no quit.
The greyhound or whippet/collie/airedale has brains, speed, agility and guts.
The heeler/collie has brains, agility and a natural inclination to hamstring an opponent.

Even with a pack like that I wouldn't put money on them beating wolves.

Sounds like the last one I had, a solid chocolate pitty with a white stripe on his nose.
We got him at two years old cause his previous owners had allowed him to do what he wanted ( I think they were a bit scared to assert dominance over him) I kept him out of the house till I was sure I had dominance then brought him in on a leash and kept him on a leash for a couple of weeks. Everytime he looked like doing something I wouldn't have liked he got put in his place, at the end of that time I let him off the leash and he was a perfect angel. Our daughter was about 2 at that stage and she used him as a pillow and a stuffed toy. She'd grab him round the neck and drag him round the house.
That same dog I used to run on wild pigs and he was absolute hell, he got all his agression out there and was a real pleasure at home, like I said he was an angel round the house and I could control him round other dogs but god help anyone creeping round or coming to the house other than by the front door.
He grabbed my hand once when I was playing with him and I have a scar from it but as soon as I yelped and he realised what he'd done he released and backed off.
This was him:


This was a Mastfiff/pitty cross I had as well:

Louie licking his chops after his last woof.

SLM, now THAT is a dog to be feared!!

LOL, he thinks he should be feared.

Definitely to be feared!!!


If you're not careful you could trip over that dog and have a nasty fall.

The answer to the original question is ... NONE. Wolves are professional killers and hunt in packs. Their bite force is dramatically higher than any domestic dog. They are very efficient at sizing up any opponents. Here in the Fairbanks area, every few years, a pack of predominantly black wolves - thought to be the pack from the upper Salcha River - cycles through the neighborhood, eating dogs. We've even found the remains of a Grizzly bear that had been eaten by wolves, close by. Wolves don't fight one on one. The only domestic dog that can prevail against wolves are those that have an armed human near by.

Irish Wolfhounds. They were breed in Europe for hunting wolfs.

TFF!! That's how he got his last wolf.

You are absolutely misinformed. I actually have real world experience with that subject. If you read my post you will see why you are incorrect.m

You might believe that. A wild wolf one on one with any dog will win.

You might have seen what you were told was a wolf. You might have seen a wolf raised in captivity in a cage. You might have seen a wild wolf recently captured in a cage. Those are all very different animals than a wild wolf in his element in his territory.

A wild wolf is incredibly stressed in captivity, stressed to the point where they can die from that alone in a surprisingly short time.

We see all the time here where wolves come into yards and kill dogs. We do not see wolves dieing in those attacks. It does not happen.

Miles58
My family uses greater pyrenees to protect the sheep in montana and they are a match for wolves if the numbers are even. I have seen the dead wolves to prove it.

A dog is basically a wolf, modified for certain desirable characteristics by humans.
A wolf is a generalist, but basically strenghts are for those things that promote survival. That means things that help with hunting prey. Wolves rarely fight, and then almost never to more then the lesser animals fleeing, and certainly aren't specialized in it. They survive as packs.

Against an AVERAGE dog the wolf would win, they are heavier and almost certainly smarter. Against a specialized fighting breed they would be savaged. Or would be smart enough to run.

Ummmmmmmmmm lots of speculation as to what would do what to a wolf! Well I have raised a few dogs in my day and seen more than my share of so called "fighting dogs" those being several cross bred dogs and a few of the pure bred "pit-bulls" etc.

The one thing I do know, after being in the wild and seeing wolfs first hand, is that they are a Fighting Unit, they are pack oreinted, not solo like domesticated dogs. The wolfs are much heavier than most of our dog breeds and even most of the cross breeds used for hunting mountain lion and hogs etc.

Now I will speculate that a mature male wolf going up against a mature "Great Pyrennes" would have a tuff battle on his hands in the wild. However, that would never happen as the wolf is a pack killing machine. The Irish Wolf Hound of decades ago may have been able to ward off the wolf 1 on 1 but this again is simply speculation. They were used in packs to run down the wolfs!!! NOT FIGHT THEM, especially one on one.

The only dog like animal that would defeat a wolf in my opinion would be the African animal called the HYENA.

You didn't read my post correctly. I said explicitly that what I said is NOT speculation. Any wolf expert knows that a cornered wolf fights HARDER than it does in the wild. If a wolf met a well bred pitbull in the wild one on one the confrontation would last seconds before the wolf would run. If a wolf is unable to run away because it is caged it will fight H A R D E R than it ever would in the wild. It still has absolutely zero chance of survival. You are a novice in regards to what I am talking about here. I have been personally involved over 1500 dog fighting busts on a global scale. Dog fighting is a HUGE problem which must be wiped out at any cost. The facts I spoke about earlier will always and forever be contested by novices. Just because a pack of wolves killed your neighbors GSD does not mean that they would have a snowball's chance in hell against a top fighting dog in a one on one confrontation. I KNOW this because I have SEEN it. My calling in life is to free man's best friend from the torture of dog fighting rings so it has brought me to the frontline of where it happens.
I will say it again... A single wolf in captivity fights more viciously than it would in the wild because nature allows him to flee... A cage does not.
In fact... I am willing to bet that PEOPLE fight harder if they cannot escape. When there is no chance of running away ALL species fight harder.

You know your stuff. Bravo.

You are wrong and you do not know what you are talking about.

Wolves hunt and kill (and sometimes eat) dogs with regularity where I live. Dogs do not kill wolves here. It does not happen. I have lived around wild wolves since they had a bounty on them and I have neither seen nor heard any stories about dogs here killing wolves. It does not happen.

You are obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer...
I said that my statements are NOT, repeat N O T speculation.
First off... What "KIND" of dogs are we talking about?
Secondly... Wolves in the wild do not fight one on one.
Thirdly... I don't know what I am talking about? How many dog fighting rings have YOU busted where wolves had been beaten up by pitbulls less than half the size of the wolf??? I have been doing this for DECADES!
I am a huge fan of the wolf AND canis familiaris. I have one of the most extensive book collections on the subject in the world... I have dedicated my life to eradicating dog fighting and have learned a great deal about the subject in the process. In study and REAL LIFE. Wolves are SURVIVORS. Pitbulls, Perro De Preses and Tosa Inus are FIGHTERS.
It is like comparing a survival expert with a UFC champion. Surviving and hunting is a different skill than all out combat. If you don't get that I can not explain it to you. You are simply missing the common sense gene.
When wolves are being fought in these horrific spectacles it is not even done for competition. Because every dog man knows that NOBODY would bet a single penny on a wolf going against a fighter. These are simply novelty matches where everyone already knows the outcome. If a wolf would have even the slightest chance to EVER win a match then these monsters would fight wolves instead of fighting dogs.
The reason why NOBODY races any other breed of dog against greyhounds is because NO other breed can run as fast. The wolf cannot run with the greyhound either. Read my original post and try to comprehend it... Remember... The funny looking black things are the letters...
The reason why nobody uses NON fighting K9s in dog fighting events is because NOTHING other than a fighting breed can fight on that level.... N O T H I N G. The proof is in the pudding!
I deal with the atrocity of dog fighting on a regular basis. You are just some person who lives somewhere who's NON fighting breed dogs have been killed by packs of wolves. Which is a completely different issue.
Look... I am not here to try and grow you a brain. I am here to answer the original question which was "which breed of dog can go toe to toe with a wolf?"
I answered the question from REAL life experience.
Being ignorant is not a bad thing. Many people don't know many different things. That does not make someone stupid.
BUT... Insisting on STAYING ignorant even in the face of facts now THAT makes someone stone cold stupid.
Good luck and take care.

Micheal Vick told me he has a dog that will tale on any wolf but he does not do that any more!

Lionman since you just seemed to pop up on this forum, just what is your so called expertise? I have been around dogs for 45 friggin years before most even knew of Dog Fighting understand and in my neck of the woods "Ozarks of Missouri" there are some terrific fighting dogs in those hills you can bet you life on that for a fact.

I have seen the full blooded wolf and half breeds go toe the mark. Along with many various breeds of dogs in all sizes, shapes etc. I been breeding dogs for many years and I know first hand, not from reading books or a college professor telling my his theory's in a class room.

On dry land a wolf is just like a shark!!! He fears no other animal, not even the bear in the woods, he is also much smarter than the bear period. A pack of wolfs will deminish a bear in a heart beat. I personally think your all wet about the wolf and it's abilities to stand and fight.

Now as far as this fellow Vic, he never would come down to Arkansas or Missouri with his stable of dogs. He would have learned a lesson real quick and left a church mouse instead.

As I have stated before...
This is a free country... Well, sort of... So you can believe whatever you want. I came here to tell the truth from the point of view of someone who specializes in locating and busting dog fighting organizations.
Wolves CANNOT be as combative as fighting dogs are because NATURE demands a wild canine to have F E A R. A wolf will fight for food with the HELP of the pack. A wolf will RUN if he is outgunned because even a small wound can cause a wolf to die in the wild. There are NO VETS in the wild my friend. This is WHY nature programmed the wolf to FLEE rather than fight. A wolf that runs away will live to eat another day...
You are misinformed on all accounts...
A grizzly would DEMOLISH not just one wolf but an entire pack if it decided to test its mettle. The grizzly is the single most powerful carnivore on earth... More powerful than the lion and the tiger. Your statements regarding a wolf taking on a grizzly is, pardon my french, retarded.
I am not trying to be argumentative here but the fact that you think in terms of "Arkansas and Missouri" shows me that you have the "local yokel dog man" mentality. You most likely lived there all your life and what you know is what you know...
I have traveled the world over... Seen and got people arrested for dog fighting in Japan, Germany, France, Italy, Greece and so on...
That means I have a perspective on dog fighting you could not have if you spent your entire life in a certain area. The fact that you believe the best fighting dogs are in YOUR neighborhood is a laughable idea...
I will say it again...
I am NOT guessing what happens when a wolf runs into a well bred Pitbull, Tosa Inu, Perro Depresa, Bully Kutta and so on... I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS E V E R Y T I M E.
By the way... It is spelled "diminish" not "deminish"... Good try though...
Good luck in the Arkansas woods... I am off to Japan to speak against dog fighting on national TV.
Tell you what... Whittle me something in the meantime...

Lionman welcome to the fire where speculation trumps actual knowledge. found your post informative and right on the mark.

Bring what ever kind of dog you want. Leave it loose outside in the area from Hinckley Minnesota north to the border and above the north shore of Superior. Wolves hunt dogs you dip [bleep]. A dog in wolf territory, even one chained to the front steps, is at risk. Dogs do not kill and eat wolves. Wolves however do kill and often enough eat any damn dog they can get at, and they go out of their way to do it. Big dogs, little dogs. Tough dogs, soft dogs. Fast dogs, slow dogs. Fighting dogs, chicken dogs. Do you really think there are no pitts, GP, Rotts or Mastiffs here? An adult male wolf does not need help to kill anything. Groups of two or three wolves may specialize in killing moose, but one is enough to manage it.

Wolves can be taught to fear people, particularly people with guns. But... they do not fear other wolves, much less dogs, They hunt infringing wolves, singles or packs, and they most assuredly can and do kill each other.

Thank you my friend... I find it interesting that no amount of common sense will make a difference to those prefer to stay ignorant. Thank you for being the proud owner of a fully functioning brain. We need more people like you...

You are quite the angry little man aren't you...?
I won't stoop to your level and call you names but I will respond...
Your lack of intelligence and common sense is staggering...
A SINGLE dog against a pack of wolves...? That is not what the question was here...
It was a matter of one on one in an uninterrupted match.
This is a completely different issue altogether...
Fact is that in the thousands of matches over hundreds of years of novelty matches where wolves were matched against fighting dogs NOT A SINGLE VICTORY FOR THE WOLF HAS BEEN REPORTED.
Wolves are HUNTERS and SURVIVORS. Pitbulls, Tosa Inus, Perro De Presas, Bully Kuttas are WARRIORS. They lack the overall skill of survival of the wolf but in that one single arena they are VASTLY superior to the wolf.
Greyhounds beat the wolf at speed.
Bloodhounds beat the wolf at tracking.
Fighting dogs beat the wolf at fighting.
I keep repeating it... ONLY and I mean O N L Y novices are convinced that the wolf is superior to all dogs at all things all of the time. Experts simply know better.
A human assassin can kill any UFC champion by jumping at him when he least expects it... Much better yet a bunch of assassins against the MMA specialist... BUT!!! If you take that assassin and put him in a cage with the UFC fighter one on one it will look more like a spanking than an actual fight.
Just like a hunter (wolf) can kill a single Pitbull especially if the wolf has backup and the Pitbull is not the pinnacle of the breed.
My guess is that YOU have never seen a Pitbull that sells for 20,000 dollars and up. THAT is the kind of dog I am talking about. Not some backyard bred country bumpkin pitbull bred to sell for 50 bucks and a bottle of moonshine...
Thank you for sharing your wit... Or at least half of it. LOL

What is it with you?
You are honestly not able to distinguish between a wolf pack HUNTING and killing a dog and one on one mortal combat? Are you really that slow? Either you have the lowest IQ I have ever found in a human being OR you are the world's first dung beetle who is able to play on the Internet. In that case I applaud you for putting the turd down, learning how to type and hence representing your fellow dung beetles in a huge way! BRAVO!
I am starting to realize what your problem is and I am going to try and help you out because I am a giver...
Here are a few other things I bet you are also confused about...
1) The London Underground" is NOT a political movement.
2) The central message of Buddhism is NOT "every man for himself".
3) The Flintstones is NOT a documentary.
And finally...
4) A wolf can NOT beat a top of the line member of a fighting breed one on one EVER.
Dog fighters have a nasty habit of documenting every fight they put on. Wolves lose every time they are matched against fighters.
HUNTING is not FIGHTING. What don't you get about this?
Plus..
If you read and UNDERSTOOD (which I highly doubt) what I do then you would know that I am against setting up dogs to fight. The fact that you are challenging me to basically produce a dog fight for you shows your ignorance, your lack of humanity and quite frankly makes me want to investigate you further to see if I have found a case of an animal abuser in you. THIS is what I do. I find animal abusers and slap them with the law so hard it makes their wife/sister/cousin hurt.
You truly are an amazing specimen. I just hope you didn't breed. Please tell me your line ends with you...? Please?

Once again Lionman, you just don't have the real knowledge of what a wolf-pack can do to a bear! Bud, I know bears almost as well as dogs and I will say their are several other animals on the face of this earth that will make a grizzly bear into a Teddy Bear in a matter of minutes.

You must be some sort of Animal Control guy, who just got enough knowledge to get his ass burnt when standing to close to the fire. Geez!

I have spent a whole lot of time in Canada and up North and know what the hell a wolf can and can NOT do. You need to look up the facts of people in Canada, Alaska, Montanna etc who have in fact been killed by a lone wolf...who is feared of man and who runs away!!!

I have absolutely zero doubt that you believe your bull. Of course you do. I am also aware that a wolf can kill a man. So can even the average working dog by the way. In fact... MORE people get killed by dogs than they do by wolves... Look it up if you can read...
You are someone who lives in the mountains. Granted. You have seen some critters do stuff... OK. I made it my purpose in life to KNOW everything there is to know about dog fighting so I can END it. I am a MMA expert and I have spent my life fighting the illegal "sport" of dog fighting.
Do I believe that a bumpkin like you could kill me in the wild with the help of a bunch of your friends? Of course I do. But if you and I went toe to toe in a cage match I would make you my girlfriend.
Do I believe that a wolf pack can kill any single dog known to man? Of course... But if you take the pinnacle of any fighting breed and have it go one on one with the baddest wolf on the planet the wolf has absolutely no chance.
Nature produces horses... But the horses bred by man outrun any natural horse there is. Because man created a specialist called a RACE HORSE.
Nature produced the wolf... But the greyhound produced by man can out run the wolf to a ridiculous degree. Because man created a specialist called a "racing dog".
Nature produced the wolf (again)... But man created Pitbulls, Perro Depresas, Tosas and so on. These dogs can fight on a level the wolf doesn't even comprehend. Because man created a specialist called a "fighting dog".
Am I going slow enough for you...?
You are confused about what fighting is. No... Let me rephrase that... You are just confused, period.
Look...
I am not here to give you a hard time. You are beaten enough by life itself. I am just trying to be helpful, you know? I figured that maybe... Somewhere in that round thing you call a head is a mass of squishy stuff... I thought that maybe you could find a way to produce a thought. I was wrong... I apologize. I will leave you to your brain farts and wish you well... I will pray to the almighty shamalamadingdong to make sure the big bad wolf won't get you while you're squatting in front of your trailer pushing out I am sure you think is play doh...
Dear God... Please throw brains from heaven...?

Lion man you are probably one of those pathetic individuals who think everything passed off as a wolf is a wolf. Most are not and have no wolf heritage within many generations. A wolf hybrid is not a wolf. If your ferocious fighting dogs were half as adept at killing wolves as you dream, they would have been used to get rid of wolves here, they would be much cheaper than hiring a man with guns and traps and aircraft. It didn't happen and it won't happen no matter how much you'd like to think it might. Like I said, if your fighting dogs are so good take them out and show the world. You could make enough money to retire on by selling them to ranchers.

Whether you like it or not, a pack of wolves hunting may be spread out over a couple of miles. An adult male wolf out in his territory will kill a dog in seconds and he is well conditioned to do just that because if he comes in contact with an adult male from another pack given half an opportunity one will kill the other. That's life in their world coyotes and most domestic canines are but a couple seconds work and killed by single wolves. There is no fighting going on, just killing.

I currently spend a lot of time where three packs territories intersect. I grew up around wolves. I have never seen more than one wolf at a time other than near den sites. Finding wolf tracks from a single wolf is most common. They might be members of a pack, but they don't necessarily spend all that much time together.

Bring your dogs. I can put you into the proximity of wolves in a hurry. It won't take but a couple of days and you'll learn what a wild wolf (singular) will do with a dog. I am sure there are a lot of folks out west that'd think you a hero if you could produce a single dead wild wolf.

Can you show me even one time and place in this country with wild wolves where fighting dogs were of use to control them?

I am done "talking" to you.
I don't know what a wolf is? I am a friggin cynologist you half wit. I spent my entire life researching in theory AND real life experiences anything regarding the canine species. There are 17 books in five languages regarding dog history for which my input was needed.
I tried to give you the benefit of doubt but you have proven to me one thing... You are dumber than the sperm you came from.
I own underwear with a higher IQ. I know sheep that can out wit you. You have not responded to anything I said. You just keep spouting out the same old bull your bumpkin brain can produce.
Those who have an IQ higher than their shoe size already know who is making sense here. You are just an old, sad red neck with zero comprehension past the tip of your moonshine pimple riddled honker.
I will respond to others but I am done here. This is not a conversation...
I will take back my prayers for you... I now hope that the big bad wolf comes to rid this world of something that should have never happened in the first place.
Kick that goat who birthed you in the pooper for me, will you?
I am out.

I noticed that even though I thought I made myself perfectly clear in my first post many... How do I say this... Not so smart people still didn't get the point.
I will revise my original post and add some more detail for those who think that the mind is a terrible thing...

Before I get into this I want to express that NONE of what I am about to say are speculations.
I have been active in the fight against organized dog fighting for 30 years hands on. I have lead countless investigations which lead to convictions of dog fighters all over the world.
I have participated in busting these so called "tournaments" which are nothing more than sick games for psychopaths. Anyone who takes pleasure in animals of any kind suffering is one step away from being a human murderer.
I don't mean to include hunters which are important to the survival of many species. I am talking about the sick pleasure of torturing and killing animals for [bleep] and giggles.

What I have seen in my many years of busting dog fighting rings is that for the most part only so called fighting breeds are used. I said for the most part because there are also many "novelty" matches where a fighting breed such as a pitbull, Tosa Inu or Perro De Presa is matched against all kinds of other species...
Most often the wolf is used for these spectacles. The motivation of course is the age old question about who would win in a one on one fight.

I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty and without any speculation on my part that the wolf NEVER wins under these circumstances.
Novices are surprised when they hear what true dog men have known all along. Now please don't get me wrong. Being an animal lover and activist I am not here to diminish the wolf nor the dog... I am just here to share my real life discoveries with those of you who are speculating and are interested in finding out the truth to the question posted.
Indulge me if you will...

Dog fighting is first and foremost about winning money. People who fight dogs are not "breed fanatics" who love one breed more than another just because it is Sunday. People who fight dogs would show up with a Chihuahua if it could win a fight and make them some cash. With that in mind the question arises... "Why do people who fight dogs ONLY use fighting breeds in these barbaric spectacles?"
The answer is cut and dry: "Because no other canine other than a well bred fighting dog can go toe to toe with another fighting dog".
Over hundreds of years people have attempted countless times to find dogs of non fighting breeds and even wolves who could win a match. People went as far as trying to fight wolfdogs, pure wolves and even went into the wild to capture the most aggressive wild wolves but the results remained the same.
No wolf in history, fresh from the wild or otherwise has ever won a match against a true fighter. The fact is that these men also document all of the fight results... So there is literally hundreds of years of evidence showing us the same result...
NO WOLF CAN GO ONE ON ONE WITH A CHAMPION FIGHTER, PERIOD.

Some people "think" that wolves fight harder if they are not cornered like they are in a dog fighting pit. This of course is a ridiculous notion because everyone knows that a cornered animal that has no chance of running fights HARDER than it would in the wild.
Some people also "think" that reports of dogs getting killed by wolves is some kind of proof that wolves are superior fighters. Again this is ridiculous.
Wolves don't fight one on one in the wild. They fight in a pack. Saying that a wolf is tougher because a wolf pack killed a dog is like saying that a group of ten average men are tougher than a UFC champion because they killed him in a mad mob killing frenzy.

Novices believe that anything nature created will beat anything man created at any task, any time and anywhere.
That is completely false of course...

Nature made wild horses... Man made race horses... Which ones do you believe are faster? If nature produced faster horses than controlled breeding does then people would just catch a horse and throw it into a race. There is a reason why people don't do that. The reason is simple... Because the man made "specialist" at running, the race horse, will win every time.

Nature made the wolf... Man made the Bloodhound... Which one do you think has a more powerful sense of smell?

Again... Nature made the wolf... Man made fighting dogs...
Does it not make sense that just like the race horse and the Bloodhound, the fighting breed has but one talent the wolf can not compete with?

When you look at the wolf you will see that he has NONE of the shortcomings man made breeds suffer from. Nature knows best when it comes to creating a perfectly functioning member of the wild. The wolf is completely independent while canis familiaris is not.
In order to create the perfect survivor there has to be balance. A survivor has to be well rounded and needs many different skills so nature endowed the wolf with a good amount of all of them rather than making the wolf a "specialist" with one giant talent...

A Warrior dog does not need many different skills... It needs but ONE.
A warrior is not a survivor like the wolf. It is a different talent altogether.
A survivor K9 has to be a good hunter with a keen sense of smell in order to find food. He has to be able to run fast enough to catch prey so he can eat and has to be SCARED enough to run from ANY confrontation not crucial to survival.
Since there are no vets in the wild a wolf could die even from a small wound which will go untreated...

A warrior K9 is a SPECIALIST at combat. It matters not if the warrior is a good hunter because his human will feed him. It matters not that the warrior has the best nose in the world because he does not need to find or hunt prey. It matters not if the warrior dog gets injured during a fight because vet care is available if his human cares to give it... The ONLY thing that matters is that the warrior is superior at ONE task... Fighting.

It is like comparing a trained human survival specialist to a UFC fighting champion...
Drop off the UFC champion in the jungle with no food or help and he will die a certain death. Because fighting is his only skill he simply does not have the tools to make it in that environment.
The survival specialist has all the skills needed to survive... Tough enough to fight for his life, knows what animals to run from, what animals to eat, how to kill them and how to find a way to maintain.
But...
If you put that survival specialist up against a UFC champion in a cage match then he is going to be beaten to a pulp.
I believe that both talents deserve equal respect...

I know that novices believe that the wolf is superior to all breeds of dog at every single task but... This is simply not true.

Canis familiaris has been specialized by man in order to make a particular breed superior to the wolf at a particular and SINGULAR task.
The greyhound is faster than the wolf...
The bloodhound has a better nose than the wolf...
The mastiff is more powerful than the wolf and so on...
But the all around best survivor is the wolf because he lives or dies based on his all around skills... Not just a singular one.
The warrior dog survives on ONE single skill... The ability to either kill all comers in one on one combat or perish.
So...
While nature programmed flight into the wolf as the most logical and effective means of survival, the pitbulls survival depends on his ability to KILL at any cost even at the cost of it's own health. PERIOD.
A fighting breed does not retreat... EVER. This is a trait nature would weed out because even a small wound can and often means death. The pitbull has the advantage to get fixed up after he wins the fight no matter how much damage was done as long as his owner is pleased.
Common sense will tell anyone with an IQ higher than the average horse fly that this kind of "survival of the fittest" will inevitably produce the ultimate warrior canine.

When man decided to "improve" on nature he did the following...
Let's say that we want to produce a dog that is a better fighter than the wolf then this is an easy task...
We start breeding for courage, skill and power above anything else... If we don't have to worry about creating an all around survivor then one single and extremely magnified skill will be our focus.
We eventually end up with a dog that will defeat the wolf in one on one combat but this warrior dog will not be on par with the wolf when it comes to surviving. It will beat the wolf at this one singular task but will be inferior in many other aspects.

If a well bred Tosa Inu was dropped off in the wild the dog would have almost zero chance of survival. Because man created a dog unafraid of anything. A dog that doesn't retreat will get injured even if he wins the fight. In the wild even a small injury that goes untreated will cause death.
The Tosa is NOT a survivor and cannot compete with the wolf on wolf territory.

If you put the wolf in a cage with the Tosa Inu the wolf has almost zero chance of survival because now the wolf is on Tosa territory.
Again... This is no guess on my part. In all of my years of trying to wipe out the inhumane atrocity called dog fighting I have never seen a wolf that survived against a true member of a fighting breed one on one.

The very nature of man breeding dogs was to magnify a certain and singular wolf trait in order to make that particular breed superior to the wolf at that singular task. This is why each breed, while inferior to the wolf in many different ways, has one skill which has been magnified to the utmost and to the point where even the wolf cannot compete.

A wolf NEEDS to have a certain amount of fear in order to avoid fights which are not important for survival. Most fights wolves engage in are more show than go. Because the wolf depends on his living and healthy pack mates to survive himself. The warrior dog fights with a single mindedness and quiet resolve that scares the living [bleep] out of any opponent, including the wolf right out of the gate. But... A dog which has been bred to be more brave, aggressive and powerful than a wolf will engage in fights which are not important for survival because the dog does not have the fear (survival instinct) to make it run when it should.

The reason why man would want such a dog is also simple...

A wolf would not make a great guardian for man because he would only protect to a point. As soon as the wolf realizes that he could get seriously hurt then his survival instinct (fear) will kick in and he will run away leaving his human to fend for himself.
This is no guess on my part either. Being a complete K9oholic I have many friends who live with, protect and some even breed wolves. These people love and understand the wolf for what it is rather than what novices THINK the wolf is...

A dog which has been bred to be more brave and powerful than the wolf will continue protecting his human above and beyond what a wolf would or could do.
So for human needs the trade off makes sense...
The dog might not be as great a survivor in the wild but a much more effective guardian and protector for man than the wolf could ever be.

So while man improved on a certain aspect of the K9 species another part inevitably diminished.

Finally...
I often hear people tell tales of wolves who killed Pitbulls, GSDs who killed Perro De Presas and son on...
These people "think" this is proof of a wolf or GSD being superior to the Pitbull let's say...
What these people don't realize is the fact that MOST "pitbulls" are not what I am talking about here. Not all Pitbulls are created equal.
I am not saying that it is impossible to find an extra powerful and aggressive wolf which might be able to kill some 1500 or less USD inferior specimen Pitbull someone bought from a backyard breeder...
What I am saying is that if you take care to find the best of the best of the fighting breeds and pay a fee of 15,000, 20,000 or more USD for the finest stock available... Then there is absolutely NO CONTEST.

I hope I was able to logically convey my experiences in regards to the original question. In closing I want to say one more thing...
I truly hope that this question was not based on someone having the desire to see a dog fight of any kind. People like Michael Vick and any dog fighters like him are mentally ill. It is a fact that every single mass murderer in history started out torturing and killing animals before moving on to the bigger "thrill" of killing humans.
Please...
If any of you ever come across information regarding people who fight dogs then please do the right thing. Report them to the authorities immediately.
Thank you for reading this admittedly long winded response.
Bless you all...

I have no dog in this fight (pun intended) but I would have to agree with Lionman. A true blue game fighting dog would kill a wolf in the pit and probably on open ground in a match one on one. If wolves were that good of fighters they would be in the pits instead of pit bulls and the like. There is not much that can take a well conditioned fighting dog (speaking of the dog, wolf family). Just my opinion though, I don't condone fighting dogs but I do know what they are. Pound for pound they will kill a wolf.

You are absolutely correct. But trying to convey that to someone who watches little red riding hood as if it were a documentary is pointless... You know? LOL

I have never seen what you have seen, but I have seen fighting dogs. Pit bulls only, as a matter of fact. A game bulldog is a whole different animal than the ones you see running the street in some neighborhood. They could not be let loose like that in most cases, they would be killing every hound, rot, german shepard and the like they seen.

Again you are correct sir.
Most people simply have no idea what a REAL "game" bulldog (real dog men call the pitbull simply bulldog as you just did) is nor what it is capable of.
The wolf is a magnificent survivor and is tough enough. But true fighters have such ability that even a 45 pound game bred bulldog literally demolishes a 150 pound "fresh from the wild" wolf. Now imagine what a 180 pound Tosa would do to an equal size wolf. It is literally not a fight... It is an execution.
In one of the cases where I helped the local police in paris France I even witnessed a 65 pound pitbull kill a 170 pound mountain lion. The pitbull was battered but nonetheless defeated the very much larger cat. The amazing thing was, which by the way is a typical pitbull trait, that even after this ferocious fight the dog went back to being a friendly lover as soon as the battle was over. People have no idea what canine DNA can create once you focus on one singular talent.

I had a couple of ex fighters once, left behind by someone. One was a brinnel color (Seager was his name) and the other a red nose (Booger his name). Seager was a 50-55 pound dog and Booger was a 65 or so pound dog. Seager was the lover of the two, he would actually play with other dogs, pups especially so. Booger was a different kind of dog, good with the family but that was all. I found them new homes (good ones) later on but enjoyed them while I had them.

I know what you mean... They are GREAT dogs. If only people were smart enough to be worthy of the existence of these special guys. All power and love... Cannot beat it.

As you admit, your dogs out in wolf territory will end up wolf [bleep]. One wolf or ten, it will make no difference. That's why there are no examples of dogs wiping out wild wolves in North America.

If they were of any utility even in the least, they'd be used and they'd be widely dispersed across wolf range. As far as dogs keeping wolves at bay goes, a chihuahua is about as useful as anything because it advertises the presence of people, which most wolves avoid.

You have no point. you know well a dog, any dog, loose in wolf territory is a target to die in a hurry. You do have a lot of mouth, I'll give you that though.

Your ability to ignore what I am REALLY saying and replacing it with your own retarded idea of what you "THINK" I am saying is staggering.
You simply lack intelligence. Your comments reek of stupidity. You are unable to read, digest and respond logically. You represent everything this world doesn't need. You are as weak as your arguments.
While I found you mildly amusing in the beginning I am tiring of responding to your pointless brain farts.
How can I have a conversation with someone who is not even able to read and digest what I am trying to convey?
My 5 year old neighbors daughter Cindy would destroy you in a battle of wits.
You are simply, pardon my French, stone cold [bleep] stupid.
Do the world a favor and take a bath holding a plugged in blow dryer, will ya?

No dog in this fight.Just wondering. Why do we keep going back to what a pack of wolves would do when the question seems to be a one on one fight.
Like I said just wondering?

Cynology (pronounced /s&#616;&#712;n&#594;l&#601;d&#658;i/) is the study of matters related to canines or domestic dogs.

In English it may be a term sometimes used by dog trainers[1][2] and enthusiasts who informally study the dog,[3] or, in a pedantic manner, to refer to the study of dogs.[4] It is not a field of science, although the use of the Classical construction (linking of two Greek or Latin based words) in English is used to imply that it is a discipline or scientific. The word does not appear in standard English dictionaries.

IOW A bullshit term used to impress the uneducated.

The only wolf killin breed Ive heard of is highly specialized extremely fast, with a champion's pedigree, called the [Red Whistler], better known a the 208gn.-AMAX

Gunner

Fila Brasileiro would prolly hold his own


Google them.

Damn thats a brute, prolly knockout 50 lbs of feed in a week.

Gunner

I owned three til daughter was born didn't want to risk it the males were 200lbs plus and female was 150lbs no since in risking it with child, I will have another one soon less worries bout wife and daughter when i amnot home.

Cynology is a fairly new term and just like many other new "words" that does not make it less credible just because you don't find it in your out dated dictionary. It is not my fault that you are behind the times. Read something new fool. Learn something. That way you might be able to teach the fruit of your unsavory loins more than how to beat a wife, OK?
Ten years ago a "smart phone" made no sense... 4 years ago an "android phone" made no sense... How long ago did the word "Iphone" make no sense.
You are an idiot. You are barely able to google something.
The only amazing thing you ever accomplished is getting the "Internet" (another term that didn't exist not too long ago) in your trailer.
You are pathetic in ways you will never understand.

The reason why I keep going back is because of this nit wit who insists that if 10 wolves steal his poodle while he is squatting behind his trailer, that means that the wolf can kill ANY canine even a 180 pound Tosa Inu.
You should read some of that guys posts... If stupid where people... This guy would be China.

A good Fila will DEFINITELY more than hold his own. The Fila is not the most powerful breed by any means but they are up there and more than a match to the wolf.

I was thinkin' more like the 6.5x55 140gr sp.

No such breed but there are plenty of others that kill wolves with regularity in the illegal dog fighting rings in what is called novelty matches. They are called novelty matches because everyone already knows the outcome. It is purely done for sick entertainment.
Within any given breed there is a huge variation of quality. But if you consider only best going against best then the results are inevitably the same.
The breeds which are better fighters than the wolf are...

Pitbull
Perro De Presa
Tosa Inu
Bully Kutta
Kangal
Caucasian Ovtcharka

Fila Brasiliero

Beautiful dog

Figures you'd come up with Iphone. you're probably a teenage girl and I bet you think you have credentials in that as well.

Making up a bullshit name for liking dogs to pass yourself off as something you are not doesn't begin to make you an expert. You keep running your mouth, but nothing comes out about where in North America any dogs have been used successfully to kill wild wolves. The would not seem to be any more to you than your bullshit trying to make yourself look professional.

A South African Boerbel is a tough customer. Maybe a Tibetian Mastiff or Anatolian Shepard too. How about a Dogo Argentino? I would have to say that the Kangal is the toughest dog in the world overall.

Again you expose yourself for the moron that you are. You don't know me at all and your assumptions are based on nothing. Do you think that the people on here cannot see that?
You know nothing about me. If you met me I could make you clean my bathroom with your spit bubbling lips just by looking at you sideways boy.
I am your superior intellectually, financially, physically and any other "allys" you can think of. I am not hiding at all. Anyone who cares to do so can find out who I am. I am a public figure and use this to help others canine and human alike. I made my first million before I turned 18 and have since given 50 percent of every single dollar I have made to help the homeless, to fund no kill animal shelters, put up big money to bust dog fighting rings and so on.
What are YOU doing to help make this world a better place you ignorant ass hat?
Again you didn't get the point of my post. I was "trying" to explain to you that NEW things and developments have happened since the big flood. Just because backwards losers like you think it is OK to go to family reunions to meet "chicks" and are still exited about the invention of the wheel does not mean nothing new has happened.
Out of everything I said to you the ONLY think you retained is the word "Iphone". You didn't get my meaning... You couldn't get what I was trying to say. You are a joke.
Here is what I am willing to do... You asked me at some point to bring my dogs to fight your wolves. That shows me you are a loser pussy like Michael Vick. I hate animal abusers who get off on dogs and or wolves fighting. This is why I have dedicated my life to eradicate this evil. I do my own fighting boy. I won't put my dogs in the ring because they are my family but I will go there myself especially with a wanna be dog fighter like yourself...
Other than being a twit who wants to see animals fight you seem to have a real hard on for me. I am almost flattered by your man crush so here is what I will do for you... Because of my job I travel a lot. I am sure at some point I will be in your area. Just tell me what state you are in and the next time I am there I will post here to let you know.
Then you and I can go a few rounds at your local dojo.
Does that sound exiting for a little rump ranger like yourself? I will video tape the whole "session" and put it up on youtube with links for all to see.
Forget about dog fighting wolves for a second and lets talk about YOU manning up.
You have a big mouth hiding behind your computer. Let's see what happens when you have to back up that big smelly trap.
Let me show you just real I am boy. I promise I won't spank you too hard.
Let's have a little training session and see who is the girl here.
I was looking forward to good conversation with some good people. For the most part that has happened. Almost everyone on here is a gentleman. You are nothing but a skitmark on this interesting site.
I am done talking dogs fighting wolves with you. Lets talk you and me finding out who the better man is since that is where you are headed with me.
How about it boy? Do your own fighting wimp!

You are right indeed. I forgot to mention those.
I would not say that the Kangal is the toughest dog in the world though. If a 150 pound Kangal could defeat (barely) a 50 pound pitbull then one has to give credit to a dog much smaller holding his own against a behemoth.
The kangal is magnificent. I have owned a few ten years ago. Had them while I lived in Turkey. They are one of my favorite breeds.
You will notice that most fanciers of certain breeds insist that THEIR breed is the toughest of them all. That is just not true. There are too many factors involved in that statement. Not all Kangals are equal, you know?
The Tosa, I can tell you from personal experience as well, can be even bigger and is much more powerful than the Kangal. I am not saying the Tosa is better... They are different breeds. The Kangal is more aloof while the Tosa is more intense about combat as well as loving his person.
When it comes to power a good Mastino is probably the end of all things. Unfortunately trying to find a REAL Mastino is very hard these days because showdog breeders have started to ruin this breed. But let me tell you... A good Mastino is an absolute monster.
The Mastin Espanol is another breed that actually is used to fight off wolves and is awarded a special collar after his first wolf kill.
There are many dogs that can hold their own with a wolf. And just about all of the fighting breeds can literally execute one.
In fact.. There are many historical accounts of Alexander The Great sending his molossian hounds to battle much more fearsome animals than the wolf because he knew the wolf was not a proper challenge for a combat specialist.

That'll get You some wolf hides to there Wyogal, when the time comes, bust there butts.

Gunner

Thanks for you're informational and well informed posts Lionman. I appreciate what you have brought to the table. I've a question for you if you've the time. Based on your experience, and knowing there are innumerable variables involved, and each dog being an individual, is there a breed that consistently wins in the fights you've seen? I've no interest in owning any of the fighting breeds, but given the size difference between some of these top breeds you've mentioned, I curious as to how they played out in the ring. Also, are there different styles of dogfighting, or are they all pretty much the same, i.e. a pit with high walls. One last question, are there certain breeds in your experience that don't loan themselves to any other type of life than fighting?

Hey take it a little easy on Michael Vick would ya? He's our QB here.

Petey

Very nice to speak to you...
These are very good question you asked.
Before I get into the other questions I want to answer the most important one first.
ALL fighting breeds make for GREAT dogs to someone who understands them. In my experience with dogs I have to tell you that not only are these fighters more capable when it comes to combat but they are more affectionate, loving and loyal than the average breed.
The reason for this is because "intensity" is the single most important trait of a true fighter. This intensity does not just show in the dog fighting pits but also in the way the dog loves his person. In all my many years in studying and living with dogs I have noticed a trend...
I always hear people say that they "used to have GSDs, Rottweilers or any other kind of breed" but once they somehow end up with a member of a fighting breed they are hooked for life. I have NEVER met a person who said that they used to have Perro De Presas but now they will only have GSDs.
The average person has no need for the immense power of a fighter but they are struck by the incredible devotion and love only such an intense animal can provide.
Just make sure you understand how to control them and never underestimate what they can do... But all things considered they are for all intends and purposes dogs... They have everything we love about dogs... They just have more of it.
You are right... If we have any kind of discussion in regards to which breed wins consistently we can and should only consider the best of the best. Most people will never have access to the best of any breed though. This is why you have reports of "pitbulls" getting killed by GSDs for example. Just because something looks like a pitbull and is sold as one does not make it one.
Now to your question...
Yes, there are breeds which will win consistently under certain circumstances.
Which breed will win is going to depend on where the dogs are fought. Under American rules a well bred pitbull will win more often than not against just about any other fighting breed. Because when it comes to American rules endurance is crucial. Even a dog that is dominated for an hour by a stronger dog might end up getting the upper hand later in the fight due to his superior cardio under American rules.
This is why in American pits only pitbulls are used.
Now...
If you had a pitbull fight a Tosa under Japanese rules then more often than not the Tosa wins. Because the Japanese dog fighting style is more Sumo like. It is more about power and immediate domination than it is about being able to fight up to 5 hours like the pitbull often does...
The rules of dog fighting change from one country to another. This is why each country has developed the kind of warrior that best suits their idea of combat. The Turks have the Kangal. In Japan they have the Tosa Inu. In America we have the pitbull or bulldog as dog men call it.
There is no real all around champion here. It is like comparing Karate to Judo. A Judo master will always win under Judo rules and a Karate master will always win under Karate rules.
Now...
If we remove ALL the rules and just had dogs fighting with no interruptions then we are looking at something different. In that case the best of the best of a smaller fighting breed will lose against the best of the best of a bigger fighting breed.
I know that many people think cardio is the most important thing when it comes to fighting but in a no rules fight it is not. The leopard is pound for pound the most athletic cat on earth but if that leopard had to do battle with the much bigger Lion or Tiger it would be lunch. All of the biggest carnivores have bad cardio. The Lion, the Tiger nor the Grizzly are endurance animals. But their incredible strength is due to their incredible size. Endurance comes into play if we artificially lengthen a battle by injecting rules. In a no rules non sporting battle it is all about maximum damage in minimum time. This is where "the bigger the better" comes into play. Size means power... This is why even in a sport fighting situation people are matched within a few pounds.
Now... A middle weight boxer will be able to beat up a heavy weight bar brawler without a doubt but if he goes up against a heavy weight UFC champion his ass is grass.
This is why the athletic pitbull can and will always dominate the wolf regardless of size.
So... ALL things being equal size matters.
While the pitbull is more "game" than any other breed the superior power of a huge breed of fighting dog will kill the pitbull before his superior cardio and "game" becomes an issue.
Very much like human boxing... Human boxing has many rules. The rules are set in place to make for a longer fight to enhance the entertainment value of a fight. Human boxers are supreme athletes just like pitbulls are in regards to dogs. While a boxing champion will beat anyone, including a UFC champion under boxing rules, you will find that the boxing champion would be destroyed by the UFC champion under UFC rules.
Most of the giant fighting breeds can be likened to a heavy weight UFC champion because bigger breeds are generally fought with much less rules in the countries they are used.
The pitbull can be likened to the human boxer because it has to fight under strict rules and regulations under which the superior cardio of an athlete becomes a huge advantage.
The wolf can be likened to a bar brawler. It doesn't have the skill of a true fighter but is tough in comparison to other non warrior animals...
While the UFC and the boxing champion lose or win depending on what rules the fight is under, the bar brawler doesn't have a chance against either under any circumstance.
In conclusion to this part of your question...
In a no rules confrontation without interruptions the best of a smaller fighting breed will lose against the best of a bigger fighting breed more often than not. But that does not diminish the smaller warrior especially if he makes a good showing against a dog double or triple its size.

You asked which dogs do not make good fighters...
Generally any and all non fighting breeds. While a well bred Rottweiler, Boerboel or a good Ovcharka have the ability to demolish a wolf they would never stand a chance in an all out confrontation with a true fighter.

I want to add something else as well...
For anyone who believes that certain breeds cannot hold their own against wolves...
Why has man, for eons, been using dogs to protect their life stock against wolves? Before there were guns the only weapon man had to protect their sheep against wolves were dogs. If certain breeds had not been capable of warding off wolves then how and why were they employed? Because the truth is that THEY CAN.
Just because some guy somewhere sold you a pup telling you that it is a Tosa or a Pitbull does not mean the dog is the pinnacle of the breed. That is like saying that all American men are weaker than all Russian men. Just because someone bests up a 6 foot 2 wimp with no heart does not mean that you cannot find a true warrior within that same race. Granted... Within these certain breeds one finds warriors more often than not but the best of the best is a completely different issue...
I hope this answers some of your questions?

Lionman, Now just so you and some others know the facts! My father was a Canadian Hockey player and my Uncle was the Canadian middle weight boxing champion for 3 years. I spent a hell of a lot of time up North In the woods.

I been around dogs most of my life and raised some of the best Labs and German Shorthair Pointers in the USA. I also seen more friggin dog fights and various fighting dogs, than you could ever immagine. Those being all breeds, half breeds and small to large sizes.

I have hunted bear in Alaska, Canada many times and have several mounts and rugs to prove so. One of my best friends worked for the St.Louis zoo and was in charge of all the bears. I have been inside that establishment where they care for bears, lab and holding quarters several times. I do certainly know what bears can do and what they can not do and they sure as hell don't go looking for wolf packs. Perhaps you need to spend some time in the woods and learn about bears Pal. Your so called blanket statements are just that, covering up the true facts.

Now when a wolf pack decides to take on a grizzly bear, there will no doubt be some damage done by the bear but he sure is not going to kill every wolf on his backside and those wolfs are not going to hightail it running away. They will bide their time and work as a team to cripple and kill that bear. I doubt very much if you have ever seen a live grizzly in the woods, other than a zoo for starters. I have hunted and killed bears!!!

So some people in your family actually accomplished something... Good for them. Why are you telling me this? I am impressed by people doing something themselves. FYI... Just because your father was a winner does not automatically translate to you...
You are a novice when it comes to dog fighting. The reason why I know this is because NO non fighting breeds are fought other than as a novelty match. Novices think that a backyard brawl where a bunch of drunken rednecks let their mutts go for a round or two is dog fighting. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Organized dog fighting is done for money... A lot of money at the higher levels of the game. NO real expert would put a penny on any canine other than a fighting breed.
You have, without realizing it, announced yourself to every true dog man as a novice. Being around a bunch of curs does not make you an expert in dog fighting. You are just a guy who thinks he knows more than he does. That is OK though. I don't fault you for that. In fact you are not anything out of the ordinary. Most novices think exactly like you because they simply don't have all of the information needed. YOU have never seen the kind of dogs I am talking about. You would not have the connection nor the cash to spend on a tournament winning top of the line pitbull which would cost more than you make in a year or two...
Unless you have seen THAT kind of a dog in action then you have not seen anything.
The fact is that you don't even have enough knowledge on the subject of organized dog fighting for me to be able to explain to you how clueless you are about it. It would be like trying to explain quantum physics to five year old.

As far as you being a bear killer...
A downs syndrome midget hiding in the bushes with shingles and a rifle can kill a bear. So you should be proud of that "accomplishment".
I am for hunting if people do it to preserve species. But there are half wits out there who think they are tough because they shot a bear in the back while he was scratching his ass on a tree all the while hiding like a scared little girl. Lat time I checked bears need not get killed. So you did it for [bleep] and giggles... Man against beast, right? If that is a fair fight then you won't mind me shooting you in the back from another building while you are on the crapper masturbating to your family album, right? I mean... It is like man against man, right??
I am not impressed. You still haven't lived up to daddy or your uncle...

Wolves killing a bear...
Well, ALL leading wolf EXPERTS (not beer guzzling forest dwellers like yourself) agree that the "big bad wolf" cliche is ridiculous.
You need to try and find more credible sources than "little red riding hood" my friend.
Like I said before...
I made it my calling in life to combat TRUE organized dog fighting. I didn't say that I am trying to bust people like you who let dachshunds argue over snausages and think that makes them like Michael Vick, OK?
One more bit of information for you which I am sure you are also not aware of...
Even though you probably watched King Kong as if it were a documentary, the "killer gorilla" myth is just as false as the big bad wolf myth.
The wolf HAS to shy away from senseless confrontation because there are no vets in the wild. Wolves kill what they eat. We all know that "Grizzly" is not listed on the wolf menu unless you also think that "fragile" is an Italian word...
I would say that when a wolf (or wolves) decide to take on a Grizzly then nature is trying to get rid of a dumb animal for Darwin's sakes...
Unfortunately nature does not do this with humans... Hence you and the other brainiac I have been having words with are doing relatively well.
Anyhow...
Believe what you will... Those people on this board who have a higher IQ than their shoe size can distinguish between miller lite induced pseudo testosterone driven dribble and stone cold facts / common sense.

Fact... We call race horses race horses because they beat any other kind of horse in a race.
Fact... We call racing greyhounds racing greyhounds because they will beat any other breed in a race.
Fact... We call fighting breeds fighting breeds because they will beat any other canine in one on one combat.
Fact... NO OTHER BREED OF DOG OTHER THAN GENUINE FIGHTING BREEDS ARE USED IN ORGANIZED HIGH LEVEL DOG FIGHTING.
Fact... Two mutts "fighting" is NOT, I repeat N O T dog fighting. Just like 2 rednecks getting into a brawl doesn't equal UFC championship even when the drunkards think it does.

A very wise man once said" There are very few people in this world who know enough to know how little they know".
Without pointing fingers I will say this... Just because someone is a breathing meat sack with a heart beat does not mean a brain is included in that mess...

Have a nice day and remember not to run with scissors.

He is a punk. So he throws a ball well. Of all possible talents I can think of this is the least impressive one. In fact... If you compare that to "seeing eye" dogs who help blind people, "search and rescue" dogs who save lives on a regular basis, the average family dog who will alert his family and often saves them from burglars, fires and so on... Police dogs who protect the public and drug and bomb sniffing dogs who save lives as well... Then a grown man with the ability to throw a ball well appears downright pathetic in comparison...
But that is just my opinion...

Thanks for you're insight Lionman, appreciated. Don't mind the retards.

Thank you my friend. I am honestly just having ab bit of fun with them. I enjoy a good dullard every now and then.
Do you have dogs right now? If so what kind?

If my JRT were the size of a wolf...

Going back to the Wolverine vs Wolf. In the book "Alaska's Wolfman", he recounts watching these two animals going at it. Frank Glaser say's one on one the Wolf has an easy time, and if two Wolves are on one Wolverine they just grab the head and tail and pull it apart. I don't believe any dog can handle a grown Wolf, The dogs around our area haven't won yet.

This is an interesting vid about bite force among dogs, by National Geographic.

Which dog has the highest bite force in the world.

[/quote]

Thank you my friend. I am honestly just having ab bit of fun with them. I enjoy a good dullard every now and then.
Do you have dogs right now? If so what kind? [/quote]

Yes, I've two german shephards, an aussie, and an aussie cross. I got the aussie cross from the pound as pup 11 years ago, he's fading fast and will be missed. Irreplaceable that one, acted as a dishrag for the kids faces, a pillow, jungle gym, and his hair made for some great handholds when the kids were learning to walk. Only time he ever snapped at the kids was when my boy bit his ear hard enough to leave little tooth marks. The tooth marks were seen after the fact, and no contact was made, just scared the kid. Still glad I wasn't home at the time. I got the male shephard when we lived in AZ, to watch the house and family when I wasn't home. A buddy had his full brother from a previous litter, and I liked the looks of him, his sire was reputededly a dog killing machine. No papers, but the vets and neighbors who knew a lot about the breed said his conformation was excellent, so I left him uncut hoping to get a couple more out of him. He really bonded with my wife, and was tolerant of me. I didn't want a lapdog, he had a job, so I let it go. He growled at me one time though, and looking in is eyes I didn't like what I saw. I'd had him since he was just off the tit, and so I gave him a chance and had him castrated. New dog. Not the protector he once was, pretty much a big dumb loyal pup, but he still keeps folks in their car when they show up. Lay hands on the wife and he'd eat still you're lunch I'd be willin to bet. He's 100 lbs or so. The other aussie is just a furry little pet, no real use, too timid, but a nice companion and a heck of an alarm. Dang dog barks at anything. The other shepherd is a female I got a few years ago, a lot smaller than the male, and a real sweetheart. She's my son's dog. I picked her up and drover her 3 hours home as a little pup, and she's been a man's dog ever since. She likes the girls well enough, but she'll follow me or the boy to hell and back. Always at your heels, gunshots, engine noise, nothing fazes her. When the dogs get to playing and carrying on in the yard she's always at the center defending herself from multiple attackers, pretty neat to watch. Hackles up, head and tail down spinning and biting whirlwind. As the kids get older and the dogs I've got now die off, I'll probably keep replacing them large german shephards. I've found I really like the breed, and while I like the idea of a really big mean and tough as hell fighting type dog around the homestead, I don't have the experience (or the time to gain such experience) with that type of dog to be comfortable with it around at this point.

Its too bad that you had to show your lack of knowledge here in this statement, as you had a lot of the windowlickers enthralled with your "experience". I'm curious as to your age though, as you make a lot of rather broad generalizations that are pretty much impossible to back up, and I'm surprised that no one has called you out on them yet. Mind you, most here probably just breeze over all of your rhetoric as most of it is fairly boring, and unsubstantiated.

However, be that as it may, I would like to call you out on a couple of your statements above: if wolves "have to shy away from senseless confrontation" then could you please explain to us the many documented cases of individual wolves or pairs of wolves coming to the sound of cougar hounds baying at treed cats or bears? Could you explain the many cases where individuals or pairs have killed entire packs of hounds and left them where they lay? Seems pretty senseless to me to actively seek out stationary groups of MANY dogs to attack them unprovoked, no?

Can you explain the documented cases of many moose being killed in a few short kilometers of river bank by wolf packs, and not a single pound of meat taken from many of them? After all, you state wolves only kill for food.

And can you explain documented cases of adult grizzlies being chased off of kills, or outright killed and not eaten by wolves?

I trust that as you portray yourself as an expert and consulted canine expert you are likely already aware of many of these cases.

Thanks for your input and time.

A wolf only kills for food...Good one!

I don't know jack about dogfights, or much about the dogs that are bred for it. Always been curious about it though. Lionman claims to be knowledgable on the subject, and so far I'm inclined to take him at his word, his posts seem to back that assertion up.

A pack of wolves slipping in and eating fluffy out of the back yard, or ambushing a pack of hounds in the woods is an entirely different situation than has been presented as being favorable to the dog. The question as I understood it, or as it has evolved, is in a 1 on 1 situation, who would win? I fail to see the flaw in Lionman's logic that a wolf (survivor by nature) would flee a contest it could not win. Why wouldn't it? That a dog who has been bred to stand and fight, consequences be damned, would stay makes sense to me. So by changing the venue, and not allowing the wolf to flee but to make it fight and do so in a way it's not been designed to (unlike the breeds man has manipulated through breeding over the centuries) why is it so hard to believe the wolf would loose?

Saying that wolves kill everything they eat is different than saying wolves eat everything they kill. The order of the words changes the meaning by quite a bit. BTW I'd like nothing more than to see varmint status imposed on the wolves in the lower 48. Just so I'm clear, I'd not like to be misconstrued.

Next you'll probably say something stupid about Ben Roethlisberger.

This is the hunters equivalent to Superman vs Batman. Just painful to read through.

I've read a lot of dumb arguments on the internet, but this is in the top 5 for sure.

The flaw in his logic is that wolves have been on the ESL for 40 years and aside from Minnesota there have been none for almost all of that time in the lower 48. With an isolated, studied and well protected population do you really think a meat ball like him interested in obtaining a wild wolf for fighting would be capable of pulling it off? Just about as much chance of getting a real wild wolf across the border from Canada.

I knew some of the local dog fighters and there were to a man what you would expect, meatballs. They wouldn't know a woild wolf from any of half a dozen similar looking dog breeds, much less hybrids.

So, even if these meat balls had a non-hybridized wolf, it would still be generations away from wild.

Lion man is all bullshit like his claim of expertise. A made up claim trying to buy some cred which only works with others of his ilk.

Problem is, is that isn't what he meant. And if it is, then it simply shows ignorance. Trying to pass off the notion that wolves only eat their own kills merely shows a lack of knowledge in yet another aspect of his arguement. Many of us here that have actually hunted and killed wolves, that live in wolf country, that have actual first hand knowledge of wolf behaviour are having a pretty good giggle reading about his "experience".

And if lionman actually does mean to indicate that wolves merely eat their own kills, I've got a fair jag trapping buddies and personal experience that stems from killing an awful lot of wolves off of long dead rotten carcasses that are placed in spots to be optimal for the killing of wolves that would contradict that....And I'm pretty sure real experience trumps theory, although here at the 'Fire.............

Example, one of the last documented cases of a human killed by wolves, was a student who was killed by a few very healthy wolves who had made a pretty good living eating garbage from the dump at an industrial camp.......

The bigger problem with the arguements is the "fear" of injury. Wolves don't "fear" anything at all. Not dogs, not grizzly bears, and not men. Once you've looked into the eyes of a wild wolf from mere feet away, that will be hammered home quite quickly.

I've witnessed singles and pairs of wolves killing moose, to the exclusion of eating other animals. In my local area we have an abundance of moose, and mule and whitetail deer, and elk, and bears.....I've watched wolves bypass deer to kill moose. If an animal had a fear of injury, a deer makes a MUCH easier target than a moose. Injuries in wolves are not uncommon.

In fact, I shot a wolf a few years back at a range of about 7 or 8 yards that was sneaking in behind me while I was watching a little bull moose. Due to hitting a limb in front of the big male I only managed to break his front leg. He took off on a three legged run, past the little bull I was watching. The rest of the pack hard on his heels when he hit the cutblock beside the little bull. I took a quick poke at the bull when he was running straightaway from me but missed. Now, when the rest of the pack caught up to the one I'd clipped (less than 20 seconds after firing a second shot out of my 300 Ultra) the leader of the pack reached out and caught the leg of the wounded male. The rest of the pack caught and literally ripped the wounded wolf into pieces. Pieces. One of his front legs was severed off above the elbow, a rear leg was pulled completely out with a piece of the pelvis attached, and was laying several feet away. His testicles were torn free and laying on the ground. His skull was crushed at the back. And believe me, he didn't go down without a fight. And this happened less than 2 hundred yards from me, where I'd JUST fired 2 rounds from a big rifle.....If they were scared of confrontation, why take the time to kill another wolf? Because thats what wolves do....They kill things. For fun, for sport, for food, just for the hell of it.

But, hey, if you want to try to assign a human trait (logic) to an animal to make your arguements or theories work in your world, by all means fly at it. You wouldn't be the first guy to do it....I think Walt Disney did it too didn't he?

I missed the part where Lionman stated he saw the wolf - dog fights in the U.S. There are other parts of the world where wolves still live are there not?

That must have been a hell of a sight KodiakHntr!

I wasn't assigning logic to the animals, but the poster. I've no arguments or theories to prove/disprove or argue. I really don't care. It's merely an interesting topic I'm enjoying seeing fleshed out. I've not seen wolves closer than a quarter mile or so, so I won't claim any kind of expertise there either. Points well made, otherwise, but still, a fighting breed dog has been bred and trained to do one thing, kill other dogs. Wolves, while clearly killing machines, are less specialized. Given a situation strongly favoring the dog, i.e. a pit/arena with no escape and no backup, I still fail to see why the dog couldn't win.

Yes, I've two german shephards, an aussie, and an aussie cross. I got the aussie cross from the pound as pup 11 years ago, he's fading fast and will be missed. Irreplaceable that one, acted as a dishrag for the kids faces, a pillow, jungle gym, and his hair made for some great handholds when the kids were learning to walk. Only time he ever snapped at the kids was when my boy bit his ear hard enough to leave little tooth marks. The tooth marks were seen after the fact, and no contact was made, just scared the kid. Still glad I wasn't home at the time. I got the male shephard when we lived in AZ, to watch the house and family when I wasn't home. A buddy had his full brother from a previous litter, and I liked the looks of him, his sire was reputededly a dog killing machine. No papers, but the vets and neighbors who knew a lot about the breed said his conformation was excellent, so I left him uncut hoping to get a couple more out of him. He really bonded with my wife, and was tolerant of me. I didn't want a lapdog, he had a job, so I let it go. He growled at me one time though, and looking in is eyes I didn't like what I saw. I'd had him since he was just off the tit, and so I gave him a chance and had him castrated. New dog. Not the protector he once was, pretty much a big dumb loyal pup, but he still keeps folks in their car when they show up. Lay hands on the wife and he'd eat still you're lunch I'd be willin to bet. He's 100 lbs or so. The other aussie is just a furry little pet, no real use, too timid, but a nice companion and a heck of an alarm. Dang dog barks at anything. The other shepherd is a female I got a few years ago, a lot smaller than the male, and a real sweetheart. She's my son's dog. I picked her up and drover her 3 hours home as a little pup, and she's been a man's dog ever since. She likes the girls well enough, but she'll follow me or the boy to hell and back. Always at your heels, gunshots, engine noise, nothing fazes her. When the dogs get to playing and carrying on in the yard she's always at the center defending herself from multiple attackers, pretty neat to watch. Hackles up, head and tail down spinning and biting whirlwind. As the kids get older and the dogs I've got now die off, I'll probably keep replacing them large german shephards. I've found I really like the breed, and while I like the idea of a really big mean and tough as hell fighting type dog around the homestead, I don't have the experience (or the time to gain such experience) with that type of dog to be comfortable with it around at this point. [/quote]

A good GSD is a great dog indeed. Unfortunately the AKC has all but ruined them. The slanted back causes a plethora of issues all inn the name of "beauty".
Sad...
Thank you for sharing.
By the way... Have you noticed how all of these novices jjust keep spouting out the same phrases without even truly reading my posts?
Nature doesn't allow for fighting machines. Logic will tell you that even a small wound without getting treated can cause death. The wolf is about surviving not championships.

Oh dear...
Look...
You can believe in little red riding hood. Do I care that you are slow? Not at all. Do I care you insist on non truth? Nope. You seem harmless so go forth and be stupid my friend. More power to you.
Just one more thing... Where are all these reports of wolves eating Grizzly bears?
Thank you for the laugh and make sure your sister uses the pill.
Take care

Nature programmed the wolf for survival. Man created the fighting dog for championships. If you had any sense at all you would get that.
This here has been an interesting case in seeing how low the American IQ has dropped on the whole.
While you guys are afraid of the biiig baaad wolf I am afraid of your offspring ruining the country even further. How could they not?

I promise you that you are on the right track my friend.
These nit wits here cannot get a hold of a wolf because most of them think of a change of tires as home improvement.
Dog fighting on a high level involves many people with lots of money.
How difficult do you think it would be for Donald Trump to get a hold of a wild wolf? About as difficult as it is for these people to buy a happy meal.
Being that I make a great living I know what kind of power that holds. If you are willing to pay the prize ANYTHING is at your disposal.
People like the few who watched little red riding hood as if it were a documentary are too clueless to even get that.
If you have money you can have a friggin polar bear delivered to your house.
The bottom line is that IF wolves could kill a top of the line fighter then wolves would be fought on a regular basis.
Only idiots cannot wrap their minds around that simple concept.
Glad you are one who is able to think and has the back bone to say it even in the face of a mob of idiots.

You cowardly moron!
You cannot even read. I DO NOT CONDONE FIGHTING ANY ANIMAL.
So I am not in the market of getting wolves involved in slaughter.
If you weren't so stupid and broke then you could wrap your mind around the fact that money makes anything happen. Just because you are a helpless, clueless broke little bitch boy does not mean other people don't have power.
How difficult do you think it would be for Donald Trump to have a wolf delivered to him fresh from the wild?
Just because you cannot do it doesn't men that a winner can't get it done.
My God you are one dumb mofo.

It is very much easier to get a hold of a wolf from the wild than these morons think it is. MONEY is what it takes. If you have money and are willing to spend it you can have ANYTHING you want.
In fact... If you have enough money you get to kill your wife and play golf...

Lionman,
Got a bud that has a breed of dog he raises for holdin' wild hogs, IIRC he stated it was an american bulldog, Georgia blue, pit bull cross.
I know nothing about dogs, but I have never witnessed a more determined ferocious animal of any kind in my life.
When ACE, his big male hung on and held a 400+ lb. russian boar hog by the throat while my bud calmly walked over and slit the boars throat, thats how he hunts em' no rifle, bow, or anything, just a blade.
Some kind of un-godly bond between this man and his dogs, I dont want to repeat what he sells the pups for, but its bordering on unbelievable.
He said something about isolated bloodlines going back 30 yrs. IIRC.
Question is he wants to give me a pup this october, and he swears these dogs wont harm anything on 2 legs, says there hunting dogs, whats Your take on his offer?

Thanks
Gunner

LionMan, so the fact that I have family relations that did do something in their lifetime impressed you hey! Well BUD this one is for YOU understand.

I was once upon a time the only white boxer on the US Army team years ago. The only man, who ever won over me was James Wellington, who won the Bronze medal in the 68 Olympics, with a broken right hand mind you in all of his fights. He broke it on my TMJ and my rib cage!

My professonal fight name was "Irish Mike Flannigan" my record was 46-5-1 Mr. Actor Charles Bronson made a Hollywood movie about us, who dabbled in the "bare knuckle" fight scene prior. Yes, it was all illegal back (big time gambling) in those days and the money was well spent. Those fights ended in a lot of blood and broken bones, which the crowd loved a bunch. Not like todays so called martial arts cage matches, where the fighters lay on top of each other for half the damn fight.

I still don't believe you know a wolf from a bear in the woods!
Further more I would being willing to bet you don't know crap about dogs and breeding them period. I do know you have never been around bears in the wild!

Now lets get one more thing cleared up shall we! A race horse is called either a Quarter Horse or a Througbred and they run at a prescribed distance form 220 yards to 440 for Quarter Horses and Througbreds run from 5 furlongs to 3.5 miles.

Sounds like your friend has some amazing dogs. Would not mind seeing them for myself since I am an admitted k9oholic.

I would say that your friends statement is on the money.
When you read this board here it is a great representation of what people all over are like. Uninformed masses who perpetuate propaganda with no evidence other than their own fantasies.
Just like the wolf is NOT what some would have you believe (the big bad wolf syndrome creates by the little red riding hood club), neither are bulldogs and pits.

You asked a very good question so I will try my best to answer in detail.
First I will make a statement which won't make sense to you... YET.
I could make a similar statement about a dog that has to take on an animal that is 4 times it's size (boar). I will use the pitbull as an example but to a slightly lesser degree you can apply this to your friends dogs since his dogs need to have a very similar mindset to the pit fighter.

"The reason why pitbulls are the absolute safest dog around people is BECAUSE they have been bred for fighting."

Sounds completely insane doesn't it...?
Let me explain...
First you have to understand what dog fighting is and what these dogs have to be able to deal with in order to be able to make their "masters" ( I should say pieces of excrement) money.

When pitbulls are fought there are 3 people in the pit along with the dogs... The referee and 2 handlers... That means that there are 2 strangers to each dog in the ring with them when this atrocity is happening... The dogs fight until one dog gets a hold of the other and causes enough pain for the other dog to back up where it could be seen like he might want to stop fighting.
At that point the dogs are separated. Then the dog which acted like he might want to stop fighting is let go first...
He now has to "scratch"... Here is what that means...
If he is let go and attacks the other dog in a straight line again the fight continues if he does not then the fight is over.
This spectacle could take up to 4 or more hours... In which these poor dogs are separated hundreds of times...

Now...
Everyone who has had dogs in their life knows that even poodles get into a brawl with another dog at some point in their life over food, space, a toy or whatever... The average redneck thinks that this is dog fighting as well. Nothing could be further from the truth of course.
A responsible dog owner will separate the 2 dogs immediately... AND everyone knows that even when it is 2 poodles fighting you have to be very careful when you are separating them. Because your own dog might bite you by accident while you are trying to separate them... Not because the dog is mean but because the dog is under stress while doing battle...

Here is what you need to know...
If a pitbull during a dogfight bites anyone while they are being separated literally hundreds of times during a single match, the dog is disqualified and usually immediately killed because the owner just lost all the money they put up.
This horrific spectacle is a betting man's (scum bag's) game and therefore the pitbull is the ONLY breed on this earth which is specifically bred against biting man EVEN under extreme stress... NO OTHER BREED IS SAFE TO TOUCH WHILE THEY ARE DOING BATTLE... ONLY THE PITBULL IS SAFE EVEN UNDER THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES.

So what I am telling you here is this...
Even though people think that a pitbull which has been used to fight is a dangerous dog to people the opposite is the actual truth...
The pitbull is the only breed that has ever been bred specifically AGAINST biting man even under stress and while engaging in mortal combat.
A rescue pit which had previously been fought would be MUCH safer than the average neighborhood pitbull which never had to prove under fire that he would never put his teeth on a human being. But either kind of pitbull would be a million times safer than any Labrador, GSD, golden and so on from your local show dog breeder...
In fact... One of the single most important traits of a pitbull is his reluctance to bite a human second only to his desire to dismantle all comers of the canine kind...
But remember that while a pitbull is one of the world's most people loving dogs he or she will not back down from a fight if another dog chooses to start something. You can raise a pitbull with lots of social interaction so he will not start something with another dog but he will never be a coward either...
So, do everyone, including your own dog a favor and keep him on a leash when other dogs are around, OK?
I am not talking about the so called ghetto pits which people hear about in the news.
If you choose to make a dog aggressive towards people you will succeed with ANY breed.
Look at the people who own pitbulls who show aggression towards people...
They are usually mentally weak men or boys who wear their pants so low you can see the skit marks on their undies and need a macho dog to substitute their own lack of manhood. THESE are the people who WORK HARD on making their pitbulls people aggressive.
If you want a dog that bites people you can and will succeed with any breed but...
If you want a friendly pitbull you don't need to work hard. Just raise the dog with love and he will naturally be nice and friendly... More friendly and affectionate than you are used to by the average so called family dog I assure you...�
If you raise a pitbull and let him be what he is by nature he or she is going to be the absolute safest dog around people while dominating every K9 that wishes to test it.
If that is still not safe enough for you then a rescue pitbull which has already been used for fighting will be the ONLY dog you could find which is even more safe.
If you have trouble believing me remember that dog fighting is about money...
If a dog that bites a man when he is under stress and in pain will not make money and a dog that does not bite a human under ANY circumstance DOES make money... Guess which dog is being bred...?
It is through selective breeding over hundreds of years that we now have the pitbull be the most reluctant biter of humans and most eager to fight other K9s...
Those out there with the ability to think will understand the logic behind my statement now... Those who do not are unfortunately beyond help and I will not respond any further.
What I stated here is common knowledge amongst people who know dogs and pitbulls in particular. Not people who "think" they know dogs but those of us who have done enough research and spent enough time on the subject of dogs.
Unfortunately newspapers, neighbors and TV is not interested in truth... What they want is a sensation... What they want is a story about that one pitbull in a million which has been trained to be aggressive towards human beings and has been forced, against his true nature, to attack someone...
They do not want to hear about the millions of pitbulls who live with families, playing with kids, romping and being silly... I mean... Who wants to read about that...?

So this long winded story in the end means one thing...
A dog that can fight with and hold a boar while your friend does battle along with him is a dog that is VERY safe around humans even under stress. while in pain and while engaging in mortal combat.
I hope this helps?

You didn't read my post correctly... I said I was NOT impressed by what your father and uncle did in regards to you.
I never heard of you or your accomplishments so I am not going to comment on that. I applaud anyone who does something with their lives. Especially if that something includes helping others. Because THAT is what life is about. It is not about how much you do for yourself but rather how much you do for others.

Anyway...
The reason why I categorized "race horse" rather than using the actual breed is the same reason I use "fighting dogs" as an all inclusive group of ALL of the breeds involved in organized dog fighting on a global basis.
The fact that I have to explain the obvious speaks for itself I think.
The point, which you missed I am not surprised to see, was that ONLY certain kind of horses are used for racing. NONE of them being a "natural" horse.
The "natural" horse is no match in a race against the man made specialist.
Just like the natural canine is no match against the man made combat specialist which are represented in the so called "fighting" breeds of this world.

You can "believe" what you want. People are free to have their own thoughts. If you want to subscribe to the riding hood way of thinking then more power to you.
I can only speak from my own personal experience of decades of hands on battle against dog fighting. During which time I have seen many wolf / pitbull, wolf / tosa, wolf / perro de presa and so on matches. In ALL of those matches the wolf lost... BADLY.
As a typical redneck you DON'T know the SCIENCE of MMA. You are talking about brawlers. I am talking about SCIENTISTS.
What you call "lying on top of each other" is actually a huge part of fighting. In fact... If you were not so COMPLETELY incompetent you would see that a lot is happening while they are "lying on top of each other".
If you knew what you are looking at you would not have made yourself sound like a Jewish granny watching an MMA fight asking... "Why are they lying on top of each other?"
You are priceless in ways you will never understand my friend. LOL!
If you don't have a ground game you will get your ass handed to you faster than you can scream for your mom to save you.
Boxers are great in regards to their stand up game. But get them on the ground and they are as helpless as a turtle on it's back.
That statement you made there REEKS of ignorance.
If you, or even your champion boxer father would venture into a MMA cage you would learn REALLY quick that all that "lying on top of each other" can hurt REAL bad.
Unless you have a good close up stand up, distance stand up and a good ground game then you are simply an incomplete fighter and anyone who knows what they are doing will have your number in no time.
That "lying on top of each other" thing you mentioned has names... Jiu Jitsu, Judo, wrestling... Ya know?
Oh well... Thank God there is a show called Joes versus Pros I think. People like you get owned on that show so other people can laugh at them. I remember some idiots (maybe your kin?) going on like you did about MMA and Randy Couture in particular. They said some similar and equally ignorant things you just did in regards to cage fighting.
The idiots were a pro football player, a navi seal and something else. They all thought they could show Randy a thing or two. They all said that MMA cage fighting is overrated bullshit. Well... That is where the comedy started...
They ended up getting their asses handed to them with VERY little effort on Randy's part and two of them actually cried... LOL
My guess is that you would [bleep] yourself to the point where an MMA fighter might give you the win just so he doesn't have to be near you.
"Lying on top of each other"
LOLOLOLOL!!
I know I cannot convince you. You are ignorant. Stay that way for all I care. Thank you for the good laugh.
The thing you don't realize is that what you said here has KILLED your credibility with anyone who understands the science of fighting. Anyone who can be as ignorant and misinformed as you are about a subject and still run their mouth about it will do it in regards to other subjects as well... Like wolves... Like bears... You are simply put FULL OF CRAP.

Thanks for the information LionMan,

You brought up an interesting point, On day @ my friends place 2 of his females got into it, I believe he called them Harley and Bella, anyway, as we hurried to the pen to break them up I was askin some damn quick question's;
Again my friend reminded me, they wont bite YOU, I thought BULLSHIT, but went in anyway and grabbed a dog, they were locked together and already bleeding,
And those 2 bitche's were way past pissed, after some serious scuffling around we were able to seperate the female's.
Here's where it got interesting for me, upon seperation I fell back and tripped on something, landed on my back still reverse bearhuggin this 125lb pissed off bulldog.
On the way down I thought about my life and family right quick fully knowing I was gonna get smoked, when we landed the dog did an immediate 180 and was in my face lookin a bit surprised, she had me dead to rights if she wanted, not another growl or any signs of agression, she just kinda looked like, get up goofy LOL
I was even holding both dogs while my friend doctored both w/ antibiotics, I mean he was runnin needles in them while they were still bleedin, and still pissed at each other, zero agression towards either man there.
It was a hell of an experience for me, and I was damn glad to get out of thet iron pen w/ all of my god given parts and pieces.

Gunner

You lieing sack of dog [bleep] I just got off the phone with the Donald and he told me he never bought any wolves anywhere in the world and e didn't do no dog fighting with them. He did say he wasn't so sure about Ivana though, she got a lot of his money in the divorce and her lawyer was a nasty type.

Please oh Cynologist explain to me how you know that you "observed" a real wolf in a dog fight and how you knew it was from the wild and how it was conditioned.

Enlighten us the great unwashed heathens who live amongst what to preach about.

I can imagine how you must have felt. But having been around these kind of breeds all my life I know their traits, capabilities, problems and so on.
There are always exceptions to the rule... Meaning the kind of bulldogs or pitbulls most people see. To the novice anything that looks like a pitbull MUST be a pitbull. To the true dog man the traits that make a "game" dog are not visible to the eye.
I actually understand how someone who really has no clue what to look for gets fooled into thinking that these kind of dogs can be beaten by other breeds if they only have seen bad examples of either show dog or backyard breeders.
What they don't know is that a TRUE game dog is a COMPLETELY different animal.
I adore the fact that while they have the capability to to to "work" like no other canine but then turn around and lick your face.
Amazing animals to say the least.
Maybe that is why some people don't get the greatness and superiority of these breeds... You know the old saying... Pearls before swine...

Hey Miles....After reading the last few posts of lionboy here, I've come to realize that its likely a teenaged kid somewhere posting.

Too many pop culture references, and stuff that comes up on google if you copy and search text from his posts. Was mildly entertaining though while it lasted.

The Trump reference was the kicker for me. Anyone who actually has as much knowledge of animal behaviour as he professes to, would understand the effect of travel on animal stress levels. And to even toss out the idea that someone could throw enough money to aquire a live, fighting shape, wild wolf is pretty laughable.

Its too bad though, as some of his statements almost had some logic to them at first glance. Don't hold up under scrutiny though.

If I had to guess further to the point, I'd say that lionboy is reasonably intelligent, but fails to make defensible arguments and resorts to insults to try to make his point work, as he knows that the arguments aren't based on fact.

You people kill me...
If someone states FACTS of course you can google them you half wit.
Just because some of you guys are a bunch of behind the times bumpkins does not mean that there isn't info out there.
I am not insulting you guys either. Calling someone ignorant for being ignorant is not an insult it is just a matter of speaking the truth.
I am the one who is trying to teach you something logically... Something I know to be true. YOU are the ones who insist on non fact based bullshit.
I brought up Trump to make a point using an example everyone knows. It was not about Trump... It was a statement about money. If you have it you can get stuff done.
Honestly...
There is nothing I could say or do to you two that life hasn't already done yet.
You are beaten... Defeated by life. The last time you succeeded at anything was that race you won to fertilize the egg...
If any of you showed me ANY signs of respect or common sense I would be respectful. As you can see by all of the other posters I am conversing with I am polite as can be because they are having a conversation with me. You two attacked me out of the gate and when someone doesn't buy into your redneck tall tales you get your panties in a bunch. Address me with respect and I will give it.
Respect is not something you get unless your conduct demands it.
Read my first post...
I was doing NOTHING other than respectfully sharing my first hand experience with the subject at hand. For that I was attacked by a couple of inbred nit wits so I responded in kind.
This is fun for me. You amuse me almost as much as the other know nothing on here.
Everyone who can read sees that you guys are unable to respond to direct and logical statements. Everyone can see that YOU guys opened up on me just because I posted some facts as I know them. Act like a gentleman and I will be the man in the mirror. You are the ones who argue like teenage girls spouting out your "stories" of werewolves eating Grizzlys.
Men deal in facts and common sense... You know... Stuff that is backed up by something...
Men don't believe in fairy tales like little red riding hood... Unless of course you guys come out of the closet one day singing show tunes.
As YOU stated yourself... You are "GUESSING" stuff about me with no evidence... While MY statements CAN be googled, read up on and proven. But I guess THIS statement is too logical for you as well...
Oh well... Pearls before swine again... \
Anyway...
If either one of you had the slightest idea how to act like a man, much less a gentleman, we would be having an interesting conversation about this subject rather than exposing yourselves for the half wits you truly are...
Thank you for continuing to tickle my funny bone.

LionMan I am well known in my community and around the various skilled trades people! I and my wife have help over a bakers dozen in the last 20 years, get through highschool and graduate. I am currently helping a your man, who the school system abanneded. I and the wife tutored this young man to get his GED and now his highschool dipolma. He has 5 months under my oversee to become and Air Born Ranger for the US Army.

I also raise some of the very finest performance German Shorthair Pointer dogs in the entire USA and Canada!!! YOU can check the AKC records for that fact. This is my hobby by the way. Nonetheless, I still don't think you know "CRAP from SHINOLA BUD!!!

Now you can look my old man up too if you like, he in fact played defenseman for the New Rangers and the Montreal Canadians back around 1936 to 41 I believe, until world war-2 came to be. I personally believe you are a person (Yound KID) who likes to just ramble on and on just for the sake of typing on your keyboard. I am done with your BullSheet Pal.

Yeah well, whatever kid....

You keep flogging the same "facts", like "Red Riding Hood", and all of the major "dog fighting rings" you have seen, why don't you back some of this up with something verifiable? Why don't you put forward a valid theorem, as opposed to googled info about dog breeds? You offer very little to the forum, other than entertainment.

Kind of funny that you keep bringing up the mma fantasy's though. That makes me giggle.

If you could back up ANY of your theories to this point, you would have. Tough to back up make believe though, so you resort to insults, which is the only move you had.

Any rate, you don't rate much more of my time, as some of us have actual things to do other than play on the internet with our ipads......

Have yourself a great day with your buddies out on your little bmx bicycles!

The "common sense" answer to the original question is - without a single doubt - the ONE breed that was created for the purpose of running wolves - and then killing them - is the Irish Wolfhound.

They (unlike the other "wolfhound" - the Russian Wolfhound or Borzoi, which is part Collie - and was created for show) - actually have a long a documented history of doing exactly what they were designed for - killing wolves.

If you doubt me - read Alfred DeQuoy's book "The Irish Wolfhound". They are fast enough to run them down - and they generally kill them by breaking their neck. They cleaned all the wolves out of Scotland, Ireland and England. The Romans couldn't believe what they could do in the Colosseum - and that too is well documented.

Every other breeds suitability for killing wolves is nothing more than old wives tales and arm-chair conjecture.

This argument reminds me of debates between paper-punchers and hunters concerning the killing-ability of various rifles. No breed of dog - other than the Irish Wolfhound has a documented record for killing wolves - and doing it well - so let's end all this theoretical nonsense and stick to facts.

Here's another picture of mine - the ONLY breed ever created to kill wolves - and with a long history of doing so.



By the way, I'm six feet tall and have longer than average arms - when I hold a bone straight up - this dog can reach the bone by standing up with his paws over my shoulders - and then reaching for it - without jumping!

I have yet to see one of his ilk that would be able to tell a wolf from a sled dog. Much less comprehend that you can kill a wolf just by capture without doing physical harm.

He is not intelligent. Intelligence requires comprehension. Something obviously lacking here. Not his frothing response that we cannot comprehend his nonsense. He falls into inarticulate blather because he has not the experience with wolves to begin to comprehend them.

This is just your run of the mill dog fighting piece of trash that thinks he can pass himself off as something else. Nothing more, nothing less.

If I were a rancher and wolfs were eating into my profits, I would certainly seek to start a "Pack" of Irish Wolf Hounds on my ranch.