I am contemplating a medium Mt. rifle for Elk etc. and can't decide between these two. Action of choice would be a Win. 70, I have both a short and a standard length, both lefties.

Are either cartridges going to work out well for a medium weight rifle? What is the lightest I should go for practical purposes. No brakes please.

On either side of this choice I have an 8lb 300 WM and a 9.5 LB 375 H&H so it is a narrow to non existent gap. I might just take some weight off the 375 and call it good.

My Kimber Montana 325WSM spits out 200gr partitions @ 2900fps and the recoil, although fast, is not especially heavy.
The rifle, scoped,slinged(but without ammo.) weighs 6.75 lbs.
It is great for packing in the Idaho elk mountains.

Both will work just fine in a medium weight rifle. The 325WSM will be a little easyer to get light weight. If it was me I would go with a PAC-NOR #1 contour 3 groove 1:10 twist 23" long with a McMillan Edge stock, Talley L/W's mounts and VXIII 2.5-8x36.


My Kimber Montana 325WSM shooting 180gr TSX @ 3100fps is a killing machine..... :GRIN:

Unless you can find a good premium 220 grain bullet for the 325 the advantage goes to the 338.

Otherwise you just have another 300 shooting 200's.

A 220gr Swift A-Frame is a good premium bullet ...
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=125363

The 325WSM will never beat the 338Win in power or in bullet choice.. It (325WSM) will kill any elk that the 338Win will kill but in a lighter weight package with less recoil.....

Right on STA, I just became a fan of the 325 with that bullet.

I here good things (2800fps) about the 220gr A-Frame and IMR 4007 SSC powder in the 325WSM....

2800 out of a 220 in the 325?
I could like that.

I can't give advice on either, but I'll use a 325WSM on my next elk hunt, providing FN ships out the Extreme Weather M70 I ordered. I'll have to look into the 220gr A-Frame. ...Not to steal the thread, but has anyone tried it with Ramshot Hunter?

Boston--
I am in the same boat as you--a lefty who likes Model 70's.

My answer to your question is that the package is more important than the cartridge. There is no functional difference between the two cartridges. If you were RH, I would tell you to get a Kimber in .325. But that is not an option for a lefty, and there is not much difference between a short and long M70. And I like the stocks that I can get for a long M70 more than the ones I can get for the short. In addition, you can find .338 Win ammo more places than .325 WSM, should the need arise.

So I come out voting for the .338 Win. Of course you could take the short action and build a .338 WSM, which is what they should have done to begin with. Why? cuz you can

Exactly, plus you have a greater variety of bullets and load data available for the 338 Win Mag. I've used both, plus a 338WSM, and the advantage clearly goes to the Win Mag.

The 338WM will not make the elk any more dead.

Blasphemy!

I really love my 338 and would never tell anyone not to build one... Wonderful cartridge.

That said, my .325 WSM Montana has unseated it as my elk rifle. It's just such a great package- the rifle itself, chambered in such a potent yet shootable cartridge. Love it.

I killed a buck and two elk with my .325 this year. I totally screwed up on the buck, which was quartering sharply away from me, and shot it right through the hip joint. The bullet ended up under the buck's chin for 39" of penetration WITH heavy bone involvement. Pretty cool.

Then I killed a ginormous cow elk in Colorado at 275 yards. Due to the extreme up- angle, the bullet hit her elbow on the way through the top of her heart. It ended up under the hide in front of her off shoulder in the lower neck area. I didn't measure the inches of penetration after smashing that heavy elbow ( and a rib) but it PLENTY.

Then I killed a bull elk in Oregon. He was more or less broadside at 150 yards or so. The bullet exited and he piled up fast.

Each animal took only one shot. The bullet was the excellent 200- gn Accubond, at a MV of 2925 fps.

There's a few data points for you. Make of it what you will! :-)

Have fun and good luck with your project.

From my perspective, the 325WSM is the better choice for me . The reason, it can be had in a short action and more lightweight rifle with very little difference in performance. I know there's a difference, just not enough to matter to me . Of course, I would be better off owning both; but, the next on my list to buy is the 325WSM (as if anybody cares).

The more the merrier Dakotan! :-)

It's a neat round; you'll like it. Bullet selection isn't spectacular, but it is adequate for any task at hand... Which would be true even if there was only the Partition, I suppose <grin>...

I am mighty impressed with the 8mm Accubond and won't be switching. Fantastic bullet.

I shoot the 338 WM and love it and Ive got a buddy who shoots the 325 WSM which appears to be a common performer,the 338s have good bullet selection where the 8mm bullet selection is a bit on the short side,yet the 325 comes in a short action when the win mag cant,I dont shoot the 325 WSM but maybe that day will come but I am surley impressed with the 338 win mag..............

There's every bullet you NEED in an 8mm (.325), but there might not be every bullet you WANT.

If a guy is building on an M70 action it's pointless to get the Short Action version over the Long Action version... we're talking a couple ounces difference and an M70 isn't very light to begin with.

I'd do the 338 WM... it's got a bit more horsepower than the 325 WSM, holds three down easier than the SA M70 designed for the WSM, feeds better, and 338 WM ammo is available everywhere.

My M70 338 WM's all had 22" bbl's... I'd put one in a McMillan Hunter Edge stock, Talley Lightweight mounts, and a Leupold 6x36 LR on top... will come in around 7.75 lbs all up depending on the barrel contour.

Brad, well you nailed that. The 338 would be a better choice. Ammo selection and availability.

The 338 Winchester Mag. has been provin a winner.
No contest for me. YMMV.

HD

One of the mao reasons to use a WSM is for the rifle wrapped around it- like a Montana or my BLR. When you can get WSM performance from a light short handy rifle, you've got sumptin'.

If you DON'T get the lighter shorter handier rifle you are left with a little less power, and a little less recoil than the 338 WM. I would agree that's probably not enough reason to get me to choose the .325 over the excellent 338wm.

Jeff,
Exactly.
The big reason I own that 325WSM is the Kimber Montana.

Jeff, the point of the thread is the man is going to build on a left-hand Model 70... talk of Kimber Montana's is pointless. I've had WSM's chambered in the M70... they leave a bit to be desired for me.

An M70 338 WM and elk go together like peas and carrots IMO.

Whoops, Brad.
I made the same mistake...
Should have read the original post closer.

Is your SA M70 a WSM action or standard (308 Win) action?

If it's for the 308 Win, it'd be a big mistake trying to adapt it to the WSM. If it's a WSM action I'd recommend building a 350 RM on it rather than a WSM.

They are both great choices. If I didn't have a 338 Win Mag I would have a 325 WSM.

Or of course you could just do a 338 WSM...grin

Dober

I am afraid that I may end up with two projects or even three.
If Kimber made a Left hand action I would be done with it.

Now I am leaning towards a 270/325 WSM switch barrel Edge stocked light weight and a classic wood stocked 338 but not too fancy to hunt with. Also considering two configurations for the 375, a wood stocked African and synthetic Alaskan iterations, guess that makes four projects.

I am still wandering is if the 325 a real step up from a 300 WM? And if there is too much overlap between a 338 and a 375?

I love ballistic onanism.

My personal opinion is that no, a 325 is not much of a step up from a 300 WM. They drive equal- weight bullets to essentially identical speeds. Obviously the 8 mm bullet is a little fatter, but in term of SD and BC, that has it's disadvantages too.

The point of a WSM really is the rifle around it, as Brad points out...

If you;'re still wrestling with this one I can help you out, no the 325 is not in any way a step up from the 300. What one will do the other will...

And for the most part the same can be said about the 338 vs 375 as well.

Dober

What Mark said. If you want .338 performance, why get a faux .338? Get the real thing.

Though in general I have found the .338 WM itself kills quicker with lighter bullets of around 200 grains, which make it a sort of faux .300 magnum....

Mule Deer

Like you and I have cussed and discussed b4 any of the 338's (338/06thru the 340) with the 200 NBT is one heck of a quick and capable killer!

Dober

Yes, indeed! I also just got word that Nosler is bringing out another plastic-tipped 200-grain .338. Guess what model?

You da man! Me thinks though however tween you and me we most likely have more of them stuck away than they can make...grin

Dober

(unless you mean the Part with a plastic on it...?

MD, some months ago an industry insider told me that Nosler was fast-tracking an 8mm e-tip... Since they chamber their rifle in it... Have you heard any recent news about that?

Not that the 8mm Accubond has given me Reason One to cheat on it <grin>...

Nothing like that has appeared on the radar recently....

Why did Winchester do the 8mm instead of the 338 short mag? I remember reading something about it when the 325 came out but it escapes me.

Pretty darn sure it had to do with an extreme case of cranial anal summersion....isn't this the compact this went boobs up anyway. So much for their thought process...grin

Dober

And course they did the 25 WSSM instead of the WSM modle, oh yeah real smart guyz!

Dober

That's what I thought. I would have bought a 338 WSM as soon as it hit the market,an 8mm not so much. I have been eying the 338RCM if it makes for a couple of years and if others chamber/load for it may pull the trigger on one of those.

And moose and bears and caribou and and and........

I would just do the real deal. My crystal ball says bye bye to the 325 in the next 5 years. Thats purely out my arese though

In my humble opinion, The .338 WM is the ultimate all around rifle cartridge. A bit overkill for small deer, but the perfect round for elk, moose, caribou, bear, etc... Load it up with 250 gr. round nose for close in work, load up 210 gr. Nosler Partitions for a flat shooting, knock em flat at 400 yds. work.

If I had to choose one caliber it would probably be the .338.

I've also felt that 338's don't offer much over a big 300. When I want more I grab my 375 H&H. My best hunting budding claims his 338 with 250 Partitions is the best. When it comes down too it both these cartridges and the 325 plus many others work great. It does make a great campfire discussion. :-)
Doc

I load my 338 with two loads. A 210 gr. Nosler at 3005 FPS, and a 300 gr. Woodleigh at 2500 FPS..I don't see how you can beat that combination with any caliber for elk..It is my favorite caliber for the North American continient..It will do it all..

I would opt for the 338 Win. I believe the new short magnum rounds are a flash in the pan and sales is not good on them and they will not survive the competition IMO...The new Ruger rounds just might make it, they have a lot to offer.

Do a .325 and add your voice to those whining for more bullet options, or do a .338 and have more options than you'll have time to fool with?

Hmmmm.....

Ironically, the "more than you'll have time to fool with" thing is true, and kinda makes it a wash in that regard.

Certainly you have more control over your own time management than you do over what bullets are available for a given caliber.

Maybe 8000 posts in two years has something to do with it?

Self-employment has it's perks <G>.

Anyway add to it that very few guys would want to try to shoot lots of different bullets from magnums for various reasons, and I think what you are talking about in your "whining" post is, well, wrong. Irrelevant at the least.

Afterall, you ARE the expert...

Would you like me to do a search and find all the many times you have expressed your wish for more bullet selection in 8mm here? Should be pretty easy to find them.

Here you go, trying to make this personal and slime another thread in the process. Your disrespectfulness towards the forum is duly noted.

Sure, I wish there were more 8mm bullets. Then again, I shoot much more than anyone I know, including, as we established in PM's, you.

But the reality is just as I described it. 8mm bullet selection is entirely adequate for ANY task at hand, and very few guys are looking at buying a sporter-weight magnum rifle as a bullet testing platform anyway.

Got a challenge for you, C&B. Stay on topic without injecting negativity and personal jousts. From you behavior lately, that seems to be outside your skill set. Prove me wrong.

If I go the 8mm route I would promise not to whine about bullets. But I might be tempted by some of the frightfully expensive German or South African bullets if I did the 8mm. Unless there was a 210-225 grain accubond.

I'm thinking the 325 is better for a lightweight package, but it is hard not to do the classic 338. Doe's anyone use the light weight 160-180 grain bullets in the 338?

Hey Boston, there is a 8mm 200-gn Accubond. That's what I used this year. I killed two elk with two shots with it, very quick kills. The AB exited on one (broadside 150 yards, raghorn bull) and did everything but exit on a tougher angle on a cow that was significantly bigger than the bull. In addition to that, I screwed up a shot on blacktail buck that was quartering sharply away from me and shot it right in the butt, right through the hip joint. Ugh. Anyway after smashing the hip joint the bullet went 39" and ended up under the buck's chin- so a lengthwise shot through a deer AFTER smashing the heaviest joint a deer has.

The 8mm 200-gn Accubond is a heck of a bullet! If for some reason you want potentially more penetration, there's a 200-gn TSX as well as a 180 TSX, which STA has used to great effect in his .325. If you want to go REALLY bonkers there's a 220 Aframe.

Most importantly, there's a 200-gn Partition <g>. It could probably all start and end there- other than cost, which is pretty brutal for those suckers....

GS Custom's makes their very good HV bullets in 180, 200, and 225 g in .338 caliber.

Barnes makes a 185 and 210g TSX bullets in .338. 160g TTSX bullet as well.

Nosler makes a 180 and 200g Accubond bullets and a 210g Partition.

Spin, spin, spin...

OK Jeff_O, I'll concede defeat to you in the biggest A-Hole contest, especially now that I know you are willing to to post PM content publicly. Obviously I won't be opening anymore PM's from you!!!!



You are making my point better than I can. That's not the kind of thing you hear from people who choose the .338 caliber. In the big picture I sure am not going to lose sleep over what somebody else uses. However, you are full of BS when you tell us that magnum shooters don't utilize bullet selection. Before I sold my .338WM I had loads for the 180BT, 200 Speer SP, 200BT, 200AB, 210PT, 225AB, and 250PT. How many bullets do you have loads for in YOUR .338?

If you are really here to debate, why are all your contradictions and inconsistencies off limits? You say you don't have time to try any more bullets, that's nobody's fault but yours. You dream of an 8mm e-tip but you don't have time to try one if they do make it? I'm getting dizzy.....

Grow some skin!!!

There's a big semantic difference between wishing and whining, which you know since you chose the latter simply to be provocative. Typical. Provoke some [bleep], then puff up in self- righteous indignation when you get the responce you were trying for...

Grow some skin, indeed... <grin>

As to PM's, if me mentioning that you and I have already hashed out that I shoot more than you do is some sort of egregious sin, then that's my bad and I apologize. Sure didn't seem like any big thang to me, but whatever.

You must have just sold your 338 in the last few weeks. Good for you. Tough time to sell stuff. I've got a couple things I'm thinking if selling ( for my ski bum money, guilt-free <G>) but I took such a beating on the one high- dollar item I sold this year that I'm holding off.

By the way, I've messed with roughly the same number of bullets in my .325's as you have in your 338... If not more... There's everything we 8mm guys NEED, but having what you need, won't stop a guy from wanting what doesn't exist.

Ya know?

Merry Christmas, C&B.

Mountain rifle. Elk. 325wsm

List 'em, I'm curious!



Same to you Jeff.

I try not to get involved in many pissin' matches on the forums I frequent. That's not to say I have not been involved in any; but, I feel like I just got hit by lightning. How the hell does what appears to be a friendly discussion of a couple of rifle calibers turn into a "f_ck you" type thread? Holy crap! Their may be history between members on the forum about which I have no knowledge; but, does it need to be interjected into a separate thread? I don't consider myself sensitive. If I've gone somewhere I have no business going, then I apologize. Give me a break.

The BigSky- looks to me like they are sorting it out. Merry Christmas to all.

What's wrong with the 300??? Unless you just want to build another rifle...Course that's always a good thing. Caliber is a highly sujective & personal choice as are women...some like em slow & fat, others like em fast & skinny...I like em fast & skinny (helps me think I'm still young).. ...

Easy - get the 210 gr Nosler Partition...oh, yeah, that means the .338. Incredible penetration, flat tragectory.

If you really need your rifle to weigh less than 8 lbs ready to go, get a 30-06. And BTW, the 165 Nosler in 30-06 is virtually identical in tragectory to the .338/210. And having shot elk with the 165, was very impressed. 2 x exits broadside through the lungs.

Like somebody else said here, the WSMs are a fad (especially the exotics, like the .325, that solve problems that don't exist).

As was said before, if you're building on a M70 build the 338.

What makes the WSMs sing is the rifle wrapped around them, and specifically the Kimbers.

Unless you're willing to sink a bundle into a M70 it won't be very light anyway, so you might as well build the 338.


_

Make the long action into a .257 - .270 Roy or .264 Win mag. at about 7 lbs. & give me the short action for the great advice...<Grin>

I am gonna agree with the guys that say if your going M70 , go 338WM. I had a M70 in 325 WSM and it really seemed pointless alos owning a 338WM. I sold the 325 WSM and kept the 338. The only view in which I see the 325 WSM being a good choice is in the form of a Kimber. But I also agree with the others that have said that there aint a nickles worth of difference between the 300WM/WSM and the 325WSM. Personally I never use my 338WM its a Brown Bear only rifle and it gets trumped by a lighter carrying gun 9.9 out of 10 times for any other critter in Alaska.

JMHO,but get an 8-8.5 lb 375,load a good 250 gr to 2900,and forget everything else above 30 caliber

Bob,
How did I know you were going to say that?

Not a big fan of the 375 H&H, though I have often itched for a 375 Ruger in the last year or so. Just not one of the itches that I really feel I need to scratch!

No likee the ouch and ouch, eh?
I like the medium bores; I have a 325WSM, 338WM, 340WBY, 9.3X62 and a 375 H&H.
I am not a rifle loonie...

I counted 'em up, looks like are tied <g>

175-gn Sierra Pro Hunter. Very accurate

180 TSX per STA, pushing 3100 fps. Gotta think that'd leave a mark!

195 Hornady Interlock. An attempt at a cheap practice alternative to the...

200 Partition. Very accurate in both .325's

200 TSX. My timber elk load for my BLR.

200 Accubond. A great hunting bullet IMHO. Extremely accurate in both rifles.

220 coreLokt. Got these cheap, just as fodder. Recoil a little stout in my light rifles.

Also, have shot some 220-gn factory Powerpoints.

There's a 180-gn Ballistic Tip that I have not tried.

The obvious thing missing is a tipped mono-metal bullet. All 27 of us .325 guys are WISHING <g> that one at least existed. 180-gn would be nice.

Jeff,
I was under the impression that Nosler was going to introduce a 190gr E-tip in the 8mm?

Actually the 375 H&H is a bit milder to me than the 338WM, a good friend had one for years before he sold it. The biggest issue for me is that in order to make the guns enjoyable to carry (hence lighter) then yes they become ouch guns, and unlike many Alaskans, I am not of sound and mind believing that I need to carry a "Bear Stopping" caliber for all my Alaska hunting. Theres lots of calibers that I'd poke a bear with and have that are just plain more enjoyable to shoot than a 7 1/2 lb 338WM or 375. got buddys that will take a 375 on a sheep hunt, its just personal beliefs is all I guess.

A multitude of choices is one of the things that makes this sport enjoyable, IMO.

Yup....and expensive!...grin

oh yeah!

44bucks for the last box of 8 mm Partitions I bought! [bleep]! That's real money right there!

Hopefully with non- ferrous metal prices coming down, loading components will too...

They should come down at some point, IME.

Whiner...I have been paying $65 a box (6 boxes) for the 257 Roy, $72 a box for 225 grain A-Frames for the 338WM and $60 a box for TSX's for my WSM. Its just money!!!!...grin

AC, Are you buying complete cartridges in boxes of 20 or bullets in boxes of 50 or 100? $60 for 50 8mm TSX bullets is a good bit more than I paid a short while back.

Yeah, but that's in Alaskan money...

You don't reload, Cub?!

Someone get a rope...

Yup! Tried reloading for a short period but my ADHD azz couldn't do it, lost interest almost immediately!

I really like the production-line tedium of it. Good for burning off stress. There's been plenty to burn off these last few years... A retreat to the loading bench is a welcome thing...

Besides, reloading is simple you just fill the case with powder and stuff a bullet in there... Don't you? ;-)

Reloading can be almost as much fun as shooting, especially when you develop a good, accurate, fast, load or you kill a nice animal with a handload.
It is a good feeling.

338 WM with 250's! Awesome combo!

Ed

My first deer fell to a factory load. So did the one I killed with my hundred year old .32ws, since I knew it was a one-time deal. That rifle is basically toast <g>.

Everything else has been handloads. You are right Tim- it feels good!

Ed,
My 338WM sure likes the 250gr partition with H4350.
Not killed anything with same, but I bet it hits like a freight train!

Thats what they say, but after loading like a 100 shells and not being able to match factory accuracy it was not fun anymore. I invested near a grand $$ in all the chit I bought too, sold it all and used the money to stock up on that which works well for my guns in factory fodder. Killed lots of criters in my life and not a one has been with a reload. I figure as long as I have the money to buy it and its available I'm good. I am not into shooting near as much as I am hunting though so thats probably why I am not driven to reload.

AC,
That is interesting; most guys I know that get into reloading never look back.
However, it is obvious that your way works(and works well) for you.
Again, each to their own.

BTW, Merry Christmas to you and yours, AlaskaCub.

You too buddy!

I haven't matched the factory TSX 100's yet but I'm close. But the 85 gr. BT's will damn near shoot the teets off a fly.

What was that you said about nobody using magnums as bullet-testing platforms? There at least two here who do.....

Tim: Cause I've long since been through the "try this caliber and that caliber stage" and completed the process years ago, so I don't want a lot of calibers around. Within broad categories,they are pretty much the same,so why have a bunch?Besides, above 30 cal, you need even fewer I DO like the 375 Ruger; but it's identical to a H&H; both are excellent and with the H&H you pull the bolt back 1/4" more. Big Deal.

I would build the short action into a 300 WSM,if I wanted a short action M70 on a WSM caliber for elk. I have killed three good sized bull elk with the 300WSM and it certainly works fine.

The 300 WSM has been a commercial success and rifles are selling well according to some retailers that I know,the 325 is much less likely to be around a decade from now IMHO.

If I wanted a long action elk,moose and big bear rifle,I'd go with the 338 mag. If trips to Africa were in the works,I'd prolly make it 375 Ruger and call it good.

In the final analysis,I don't see the 325 doing anything better than the more commonly available 300 mags.They have proven to be perfect elk rifles for me,don't see why you need anything bigger on an elk.

I killed my first bull elk with a 270 with a 130 grain bullet,it hit the ground so hard it practically bounced,the 300 mags are a big step up in power from a 270 and you surely don't need anything bigger on any bull elk that walks.


RD

Bob,
Frankly I am, and have been, intrigued by your idea for a while. I've got a .338 WM, but is a heavier rifle than a Ruger African. Anyone heard if Ruger is considering offering their 250 grain X as a TSX or TTSX? The 235 TSX probably makes my idea a moot point, but I would like a bit more BC than the 235. Sorry for this temporary thread hi-jacking.

Expat

I recently got another 375 H&H, Bob( a Remington XCR) and am looking forward to putting it though its paces come this Spring.

BTW, Merry Christmas, Bob!

I agree the 300 WSM, especially in the Kimber MT, is a dandy round for elk. Thing I like is with the Kimber platform, the over-all length of the rifle is still relatively short yet it has a 24" barrel... and it's light! The 300 WSM is less caustic to shoot and is quieter than the bigger 300's and 338's. I've taken good care of my hearing and plan to do whatever it takes to keep it intact.

I plan on getting away from TSX's and am going to try 200 grainers in my 300 WSM... 2,800 fps for a 200 Accubond or Partition is going to be a great elk, moose, whatever load, near or far.

I sure like the 200gr partition in my 300RUM, Brad.
It is a excellent Muley thumper(ok,big time overkill)

Tim, i didn't even know you had a 300 RUM you loony you!

What sort of speed you running the 200 NP at? 3,100-ish?

Brad, yeah, I certainly am a loony!


I am getting around 3180 with 95 grains Retumbo(Noslers book max) over my Oehler 35.

It kicks, but boy does it shoot nice(usually well under an inch.)

Jeff-O, What load are you using with the 175 Sierra Pro Hunters? I have several boxes of them but have had a hard time finding data.

Brad - Tim and I have been sharing info on the 300RUM for awhile now. I also use the 200gr. NP's and have had great results on many bulls from close up to way out there........all DRT's.

3,189 fps with RL25, Fed. 215M's, Rem. brass out of a M700 LSS.

Without a doubt! There's nothing on the planet that's gonna shake of a 200 gr NP at those speeds.

Because of my hunt style I wouldn't want to pack the platform to handle that round, but I can certainly see where in some situations it'd be a heck of a choice.

.....which is exactly why I've recently gone to a T3 laminated 300WSM and I've had a T3 300WSM in synthetic stock for a few years, as my preferred elk set-ups. My very able son can carry the 1/2lb. heavier laminated version while I pack along the synthetic version. The Rem. LSS is one heavy laminated set-up, but given the cartridge and load....there's a good reason for the heavier package as well. However, for most of my elk hunting these days, I don't miss the extra 2 inches forward nor the heavier weight of the package. Recoil, never a consideration and not as much as people might believe in regards to this cartridge (Limbsaver's help a bunch as well). If one can't put up with that for one shot on an animal........me thinks he's in the wrong business.....grin.

My recent 2nd back surgery has made me reconfigure things a bit. I'm not down and out by a looooong ways, but there are issues that I need to address now whereas never before.

I've decided to reserve the 300RUM for those areas where I know I'm goin' long, cross canyon with my shots and will carry the 300WSM's (my son and I) at all other times. With the 300WSM's, I never feel undergunned nor that that longer shot isn't doable, but the lighter package doesn't become a real burden at about 9am.

Circumstances change and I've gotta go with it.....such is life. But again, the 300WSM has yet to let me down so I don't really feel that I've compromised so much. T3's are not for everybody, but for me and mine, so far so good. I must admit that the laminated offerings are a much more attractive package. I also purchased a new 270WSM laminated within the last couple of weeks. The word is that the laminated versions will not be offered this coming year (at $160ish more than the synthetics, they don't sell near as well.........to close to the new Sako A7 perhaps.....?).

My best to you and yours during these Holidays..............

Notropis, 64 grains of H4350, F215 primer, Winchester brass. It's a mild load, fairly mild, and shoots well in both .325's.

To put it in perspective, my 180 TSX load is 69 grains H4350 for about 3075 fps. That is not a mild load.

Point taken, though I didn't say "nobody", I said "most guys" or something similar.

Ironically, even as much as I love the beast, I can only think of two loads EVER that I've run through my .338! The now-defunct and much lamented 200 NBT, and the excellent 225 NAB. Along with a box of some factory [bleep] they threw in with the rifle.

I'm for thinking that's fairly typical in sporter weight magnums; most guys settle on a load or two and ride it. With my FIRST .325, I bought it when they first came out and there was literally NO loading data out there for them yet. My local gunshop (S-M) was very well stocked with bullets and the easy availability locally on the shelf, of various 8 mm bullets, combined with the fact that I flat needed to burn some powder in order to figure out this brand-new cartridge with no load data out yet, led me to try a bunch of stuff.

I don't think that's typical, but you are 100% correct that IF a guy really really wants to shoot all kinds of different stuff, he should skip the 325. On the other hand, I am correct in saying that there's everything a guy needs, to hunt anything you'd hunt with a .325 WSM.

Thanks for the info. I will have to load some to see how they do. I have been using a mild load of 58gr IMR 4320 behing 180 TSX to get about 2,750 out of an A-Bolt. Your 180 TSX load sounds a little stiffer.

STA gets 3100 fps with one of the RL's, RL15 I believe, and the 180 TSX. But his load didn't perk in my rifle, so I messed with H4350 instead and that's what I got...

Jeff it was RL19 I am not at home but thinken it was 72grs of it.....

Mgnumb, sorry to hear about the back surgery... you sound like you have the POV to deal with it well.

I've used the 300 WSM on and off for seven years now and like it a lot. It's a good compromise in a light rifle like the Tikka or Kimber and I don't find its recoil bothersome at all in the light Kimber. Given the right situation, I'd be fully confident on any elk out to 600 yards with my Kimber setup, and a 200 grain loading will only boost that confidence.

Merry Christmas to you and yours!

Brad

After losing months of sleep over worrying about calibers, bullet weights and powder charges, I'm just shooting .308 165 IB's and .338 225 IB's, and sleeping alot better these days...

Nothing I can't kill with these combo's, from coyotes to moose...

I haven't fired a .338 without earplugs, but I fired my .325 three times that way this fall and didn't notice it being particularly loud (within the context of firing a high-powered rifle w/o earplugs, of course!)...

Just a data point...

I have 2 buddies with .325 WSMs and I have shot them quite a bit as well as reload for them. I actually like the round quite a bit. The load that we use in their rifles is a 200 gr. Partition at just over 2900 fps. Shoots plenty flat, not too much recoil. Hits hard, short action for a lighter rifle. Nothing wrong with the .338 but I can't say its significantly better either.

I have a new like for the 375 H&H. I've not killed a head of NA game with it but took it to Africa where it was pure pleasure for me and pure poison on seven antelope all of which dropped where they were hit. But it's not just that; it's the balance of power and velocity with a very reasonable trajectory with the right bullet and not too much recoil. I shot a lot befoe I went and it's just a very pleasurable "big" round to shoot. I've also shot a .340 Wby for years and the H&H and it weigh the same (8.5 lbs.) but the latter is easier on me than the Bee which I also like.

I would have no difficulty omitting all I have above .30 cal except the H&H.

For my own "time management" reasons - I didn't read more than a page of this diatribe.

If I owned a .300 maggie and a good .375, I'd probably go for a Kimber 84 (or like) in .338Fed or the newer .338RCM....

Either will do 99%+ of what needs to be done on any elk hunt. IMHO

That advise is free and worth every penny of it

Goodnews/Expat: Lots of people have more experience with the 338-375's than me personally,but I've been around the big 338/340's loaded and shot them,and seen friends use them.Saw them in actionin the days when I was doing a LOT of elk hunting(for an Easterner ) I also built a wildcat 35 on a blown out H&H case before the 358 STA became a popular wildcat.On those hunts I mostly killed elk with my 300's,but did carry a couple 338's;just never got to use them myself.

Bill Steigers turned me on to the 250 gr 375 and as I worked up loads with 235's and 250's and saw results on game,I noticed the following:

First, I could pretty easily load the 250 to app 2900 fps.

Second,trajectory was easily as flat to 400 yards or so,as anything I could load in a 338 WM,or 340 Weatherby,meaning 210's to 250's;I know this cause my buddy has a 340,and I've had several 338's,and we shot them a lot.I know this is not supposed to be the case, but it was.Things may change today(slightly) with the newer lighter plastic tip bullets,but we used Noslers and Sierra's at the time.The 375 with 235-250's behaved like a great,big 270 Winchester with 150 gr bullets,and shot as flat.

Third,my general impressions were that 375's,at least with Bitterroots(SWift Aframes?)seemed to make bigger holes in animals than 338's,which to me behaved like 300magnums with good bullets.I could never really see much difference between big 30's and 338's although I know it should be there.

Fourth, my rifle, a pre 64 M70 with a 24" Kreiger, Brown Precision stock,and 4X Leup aboard,weighed about 8.5 lbs, was very shootable and beat me up less than a 340, or the blown out 35.

Last,the 375 could be used in Africa if ,as,and when the time came.I don't need a lot of riflesabove 30 caliber, and all the 338's were sold off.I have not had one since the late 80's.Not saying they are not good, just that I have no need for one,not while I have a light 375.

I'm just not into filling every single nitch in the caliber lineup.

Might add that the big 35 was wonderful ballistically,moving a 250 at over 3000,and showed only 9" of drop at 400 yards;but took over 90 gr of RL19 to get there and kicked like a mule. Ditto a 375 AI.The 375 took only 77-78 grains of powder.So, as a combination, the 375H&H-250 won by default on a number of fronts.

This is anectdotal but my buddy from Long Island was in SA in November,and shot a big eland with his left-hand M70 375H&H;load was 235 gr TSX at over 2900,and distance was a lazed 326 yards, he relates.The eland was floored DRT,and the pro's were impressed.Another good bullet for a grand cartridge.

I would expect a 375 Ruger to easily do the same things,maybe a skosh more JMHO :)Sorry to hijack;wanted to explain.

Bob, News,
Many thanks for the responses. I think the .375 Ruger in the African Hawkeye rifle is an opportunity to have a powerful cartridge in a portable package that more of us in the US should take advantage of. I think most of pass it up because we perceive we don't need a .375 in North America. However, at 8.5 pounds scoped shooting a 235-250 grain bullet, it is not an unreasonably powerful rifle when we have a .338 or .340 in the safe. The .33 is usually a pound or 2 heavier too.

Expat

Expat, I'm with Bob in that I am a big fan of the 375's. I happen to run a 375 Wby on an old M70 and it's just a plain kick to shoot and hunt with.

It'll really pound hell on lopes with the 270 Power Point (man I wish I could find another 1K of those to run thru). As well with the 300 Sierra it makes for one heck of a long range chuck rifle.

Bottom line, if I had to begin all over and wanted one gun bigger than my .270 I'd build a 8 lb all up 375 Rugger and rock on.

I have a 3-10 Leo with M1 turrets on my present 375 Wby and it's hella fun to take to long range!

Dober

You .375 guys have done invaded our 8mm/.388 thread... Bastiges... <grin>

Jeff O,
You don't have yourself a .375 of some persuasion??

It's a plot...grin

Why don't you nut up and build a 375 WSM...grin

Dober

Thinkin a 375 Ruger would trip my trigger.

That 375 Ruger does look nice( as well as those two rifles Ruger chambers it in)

The 25-06 still needs to come first before any others.Can see some 100 TSX and a couple of deer tags for fall.

Can't forget the quarter-bore!

Yup might have to sell the 7?

ha!
I will believe that when I see it...

I have had two 375 Imp's, one 375 Wby, and a few 375 H&H's. After having those I gave up on the 338 Win/340 Wby of which I have had several (4 or 5). With 4895 or Varget or RL15 and 250 grain bullets, the 375's were much easier to handle than a heavy load of slow burning powder in the 338 bores. In addition the 375's flat crush game compared to the 338's. I sold all of the 338's. If you are going to get kicked more than a 277/284 class of rifle then the get some performance gain and go 375.

Mike: I think the 375 Ruger is the best new big game cartridge to come along in quite some time.With todays really good premiums running in the 235-250 gr weights(TSX/Aframe/Woodleighs, etc)moderate rifle weight and manageable recoil(for what you get),it would be a flexible,portable, powerful combination. Can't imagine anything better on a moose hunt in grizzly country.

With that and your STW,you can hunt the world!

Matter of fact,IIRC a guy named Warren Page did exactly that with a Mashburn and a 375 Weatherby(older versions of the same thing).Old Warren knew whereof he spoke.....

Have not tried .325WSM but have hunted elk for 30 years with .338. Have friends that use .340's and 375's. I will not hunt elk with anything but the .338 but this has more to do with the rifle - a Sako Finnbear. It, and a 210 gr Nosler Partition, has taken every elk I have shot. Performance is on a par with anything for elk. Plus, I am a traditionalist. If it works, I do not change. I do have a .300WSM and would not hesitate to use it for elk of i had to.

But, pick the caliber and rifle that you feel good about. Based on what I know about the .325, it should be more than adequate.

Wonder if Kimber will chamber a Montana in the .375 Ruger....

If I had a 338 Winchester, I'd keep it. If I was going to buy a new rifle, I'd probably go for the 325 WSM. Of course, the 338 is well established and will survive; the 325 is still relatively new and might not make the long-term line-up.

I already had a great .338, but I bought a .325 just to cement my position of King of Redundant Gunsafe Overlap.

Appearances and all that

I doubt .325 is a long term blockbuster hit. But 300 WSM seems to be. Come the Apocalypse, I'll just resize 300 WSM brass and rock on!

Ahem,
How about 325WSM, 338WM, and 340Wby??

Tim: You are bad.......

Thanks for the responses. Just put the 375 on a diet plan, with the help of a synthetic stock. Will keep the 325 lightweight project in mind for future gun safe overlap and redundancy.

Absolutely.

Thats my rig too except for bullet brand. I have found (for me anyway) the ideal rough country elk killer.

lodgepole, I forget, what bullet are you using?

My particular .325 Montana is brutally ruthless on steel plates out to 600 yards. Surprising to me that it holds up so well out that far, given how light it is- but it does really well.

Point being, I guess, that I see it as more than just a rough-country rifle. No flies on it, even for (say) a sedate stand hunt over a park with long shots possible.

I see very little except package to choose from. The Kimber 8400 with synthetic stock and 24 inch barrel weighs about 6 lb 3 oz. Add 13 ounces for scope and rings and you have a 7 lb rifle.
I have a .338 Win Mag in a Remington 700 KS Mountain rifle at 7.5 lbs, with scope and rings. The first load is a 200 grain Accubond at 2900 fps, BC of .477. I'm assuming a powder charge of 65 grains, using RL-15 at 2897 fps nominal for the 325 WSM. My choice of .338 Win Mags is a 225 grain AccuBond CT. I'll assume a load of 69.0 grains of 4350. Crunching the numbers the recoil is nearly identical at 39 ft-lbs for the Kimber and 40 ft-lb for the half pound heavier Remington. Recoil velocity is 19 fps and 18 fps respectively. If zeroed at 200 yards, the 325 WSM drops 39.9" at 500 yards and the 338 Win Mag drops 42.6", a difference of 2.7 inches. Some sources say five foot pounds is detectable to most shooters. If a person can pick their spot on a target within 2.7 inches, at 500 yards, then the difference could be significant. I keep my expectations more reasonable, 1.5 inches per hundred yards is super accuracy, over a back pack in a hurry. If a half pound of weight, one ft lb of recoil or 2.7 inches of drop are issues then the 325 WSM is the answer. Oh, by the way, velocity at 500 yards is within 20 fps, in favor of the 325 WSM and the energy difference is less than 200 ft-lb, in favor of the 338 Win Mag. The sectional density of a 200 grain .323 matches a 219 grain .338, so I chose a 225 grain as the most appropriate match, as the bullets are of the same construction. If you like the 325 Win Mag, buy a couple of hundred brass and some good bullets and shoot happily ever after. The inexpensive 8mm Mauser bullets are obviously the best choice for everyday shooting, saving the good stuff for the occasional hunting trip. I shoot 200 grain cup and core bullets for practice in .338, saving the Barnes TSX bullets for flesh and blood. A matched pair of .300 WSM and .338 WSM rifles would have possibilities. I'd go with a .300 Ruger (custom of course) and a .375 Ruger as my pair of anywhere rifles.

Carson, subjectively, recoil generated by my .325 Montana is noticeably less than my .338 Win M700 XCR. 200's in the former, 225's in the latter.

However, it is a sharper feeling recoil in the Kimber.

Both are very shootable once your numb yourself...err, get used to them. :-)

I finally had a chance to shoot my new 325wsm X-Bolt this weekend with factory Winchester 200gr Accubonds
So far so good.

She barks loud enough, but the bite was no worse than my 300 Win Mag.
Very accurate. After sighting in, she consistanly put them with in 2" groups at 200 yards.
Then after that we did some shooting off of sticks, knees, free hand, etc.
She performed just as I hoped.

In a couple weeks, we will stretch the yardages out a bit more and see how she does.

The 175-gn Sierra Pro Hunters are extremely accurate from both my Kimber and Browning .325's, and you can load them down to a pleasant 30-06 level of recoil too. My favorite practice bullet at shorter ranges in the .325 FWIW.

We built a number of fabulously nice 338's on pre 64 M70 actions and lighter than standard Kreigers cut to 23".Stocked them in Brown Precisions and they worked, and shot, great.

IIRC none weighed much more than 8# scoped,and were pretty easy to shoot. Last time in Alaska my back=up rifle was a similar rifle on a Classic action.

I have no experience with the 325.

Without wading through all these posts and taking my time, I would say neither.
I would much rather do a .338 WSM based soley on the fact that there are much better .33 cal bullet selection than a .32 cal bullet selection.

I would say without a doubt

FLIP A COIN!

I shot my first elk with a 338 Win Mag. I have a pretty darn nice M-70 338 Win Mag custom rifle. I'm using a 325 WSM on my next elk hunt.

My 325 Montana is just such a sweet rifle. Powerful yet controllable. Easy to get to shoot well. My old M-70's are lovely rifles to look at but some of them flat suck to tote up steep hills. You can lighten them up some but by the time you get an M-70 to weigh within a pound and a half of a Montana you'll probably have spent twice as much to get there.


There are plenty of good bullet choices for the 325, yes the 338 has more but to me that's a bit of a red herring since the 325 has more than enough. I really don't think people try 20 different bullets in a cartridge they usually only try 2 or 3 maybe 3 or 4 at the most (obviously some of the loony's here will be closer to the 20).

The WSM's are going to be around for a long time. The 7 WSM does seem to be fading but the 300, 270 and 325 have far exceeded sales expectations. They are great rounds and will be with us for our hunting lifetimes. Anyone who says the WSM's are going away has their head in a hole and doesn't check sales figures.

I talked to Jeff-o and 340boy before they got their Kimbers. I think you can tell by their posts they are pretty glad they did. Move away from the M-70 and just buy a Kimber Montana in 325 and I think you'll be darn glad you did........................DJ

Nah... 300 WSM

Watching elk collapse like dynamited smokestacks from properly-applied 30 caliber bullets,I see no need for improvement;and if I could be convinced to go WSM again in an elk rifle,the 300 gets my vote (if I didn't just shrug and get a 7mm . Elk are just not that tough IMHO.....

I have both 300 WSM and 325 WSM in the Kimber Montana I like both I see no real deferece in recoil (BUT) the 325 WSM dose make a little bigger hole in the animal <G> and thats a good thing IMO....... Go for the 325 WSM :GRIN:

STA: I am admittedly too old and curmudgeonly to excrutiate over .015 in bullet diameter ...and the elk are too dead from either to care......

The difference between a 300 WSM and 325 WSM is nowhere near the difference between a Kimber Montana and a heavier older rifle. Point being try a Kimber in either caliber and I think you'll like it.................................DJ

DJ: That part I get completely; if rifle weight is paramount ,it is tough to beat a Montana,and having the performance level in the light rifle is part of the attraction of the "package". I'm going to the range shortly to shoot mine.....

The pertinant point to me is that if you want the most powerful Montana, it's the .325 WSM, and the "package" is completely manageable if not FUN to shoot. I also feel that the .325 is at least knocking on the door of the .338 WM while the 300 WSM is more of a 30-06 +P.

Does that matter? I don't know. It will to some, not to others.

I don't see a downside to the .325. Bullet selection isn't what it is for the .30's or even 33's, but then again as DJ says there's everything you need and then some.

And it fits right in with a .358 and 10mm Auto <G>.

Since I have a .338 that is 8# 12 oz all up [I am working towards 8# even] I guess I will say .338 Win Mag.

I still believe Winchester would have sold a ton of 338 WSM's

I would like to have a Montana but for elk I believe it would be a 300 WSM with 180 or 200 grain bullets.

If'n logic matters, a 300 WSM is the better choice... grin...

Jeff, the 300 WSM is a slolid 150+ fps faster in equal length barrels over the 30-06 using the old "standard" powders. With the new RL17 it's a solid 200 - 300 fps ahead of the 30-06.

Those speeds make it a fair bit more than +P!

Would add, I personally can see no reason for using a 180 in the 8mm WSM. Seems to me the point of an 8mm is to do something a 30 cal is less suited to, and that would mean a 200 - 220 grainer.

Right now my 300 WSM is pushing 200 partitions at 2,850 and I'm running 180's a 3,020 and 165's at 3,150... again, that's certainly far more than +P...

Just the way I see it.

Brad, what's your load for the 180's? If you don't mind me asking. If you're using RL-17, how much faster is it than your "old" loads?"

SP, my 180 load is 64.0 gr's RL17/WW Brass/Fed 210 primer/3016 fps

I've gone as high as 65.0 for 3,067... that load seemed fine pressure-wise, I just prefer to keep things a bit more mellow.

In my first (of five) 300 WSM's I tired most powders including, H414, RL19, RL22, H4831, H4350 and Ramshot Hunter. After running a lot of rounds with the above powders and both Magnum and Standard primers, I settled on H4350 and a standard primer as "the best" all-around 300 WSM combo. 2,950 fps is the average in most rifles with a low ES and H4350 is "temp insensitive." Only RL19 gave slightly more speed (maybe 15 fps), but since it's not temp insensitive like H4350 I passed it by.

With a top load of H4350 and a 200 grain Partition I'm getting 2,800... 2,850 with RL17. 50 fps increase.

With a top load of H4350 and a 180 Partition I'm getting 2,950... 3020 with RL17. 70 fps increase (though if I wanted I could easily get 100 fps more).

My top 165 loads with H4350 were right at 3,060. 3,150 fps is no problem with RL17. That's a solid 90 fps more.

Some guys will see greater increases than what I'm posting because they push the 300 WSM more. I tend to load a bit conservatively to keep everything easy on the rifle.

Here's a link to the subject:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...Board/11/page/1/fpart/all/gonew/1#UNREAD

Brad,

Have you chronographd your RL-17 load at cold temperatures?

I'm surprised that you haven't tried Ramshot Hunter. Any particular reasom why not ? E

John, no.

As you know the temps have been pretty moderate lately. I have shot the H4350 loads over the choronograph in temps well below 20*F and they chron'd the same the other day when I was testing the RL17 loads at around 45*F. Alliant obviously makes the claim that RL17 maintains "Consistent maximum velocity in extreme weather conditions."

That's the last big unknown for me with RL17.

RL17 has also shown a very slight edge accuracy-wise over H4350.

IIRC, the only other powder Alliant makes the same temp claim for is RL15 and I certainly found the claim to be true.

All-in-all, so far I think the hype about RL17, and at least the 300 WSM cartridge, is absolutely true and is one of those rare things in the gun world (and the world in general) IME.

E, I mis-printed "Ramshot Big Game" in the above... meant to say Ramshot Hunter and editied to reflect that.

Used Ramshot Big Game in the 270 WSM.

Yes, been there done that. Not a fan.

Brad, thanks for the info.

I was promised some RL-17 by Alliant back in late September and it never showed. Guess I'll have to look again locally. RL-15 is pretty good in cold weather--or at least it has been since they tweaked it for military use a few years back. In general RL-19 doesn lose all that much either, not like RL-22 can.

I have had good luck with Hunter in the .300 WSM. Am working with it right now in a new M70 and will see what eventually develops.

There are some great velocities claimed from Hybrid 100V in various applications, but I tried some a couple of weeks ago in cold weather (just above zero) after working up a load at 70 last fall, and it lost concerable velocity. Of course, Hodgdon doesn't list it as a Extreme either.

John, RL17 just showed here. YGS has some, as does Rob down at Shedhorn. I was in Ennis yesterday. Likely it's showed at Capital Sports too.

I know you like Ramshot Hunter, but I really didn't find it did anything the more widely available H4350 already did. I just don't like how fine Hunter is... but that's likely a personal quirk, and others love it for the reason I dislike it.

I quit RL22 about eight years ago after I started seeing big velocity swings from winter time to summer time range sessions. Probably mostly in my head, but I didn't like it. Never spent enough time with RL19 to see how it acted summer to winter.

I'll be interested to hear your take on RL17.

Couldn't stand it any longer. I've never hunted with either so take it for whats it's worth.

I've only shot a 338wm once. Not interested in shootin one twice.

I would however be interested in shooting a 325 in a Kimber Montana. Montanas are so sweet on shoulders!!

Ramshot Hunter was very fast in my 300wsm but due to time or should I say lack there of and a load was never developed. W760 showed the same type of increase in velocity as Brads described difference in his loads with H4350 vs. R17. But for me H4350 was just a hair more accurte than the W760. I, like Brad just want an accurate load as possible even if it means less velocity. I'm looking forward to trying RL17.


I watched a bull elk hit good three times with a 300wm and never flinch. And even though I've seen my pards 300wsm launch 200gr Accubonds at 2900fps and group an inch and a half at 300 yds, after seeing three solid hits with a 300wm on an elk that didn't even flinch I'd say bigger might definately be a better choice for a dedicated elk rifle. As long as a guy can comfortly shoot one.

The bull I'm talking about was a big Rosevelt 6x6. I watched through my bino's as that bull took three soild hits with a 300wm and never flinch. It died about 5 yds later. All three were good shots and maybe it never flinched because it was dead after the first shot. I thought the guy completely missed. I was watching less than 100yds away from the bull.

Still I believe a Kimber Montana in a 325wsm would be a great elk round with less recoil than a 338wm and Kimbers short mag is a great carry in steep and deep country. JMO

Actually, part of the reason I like Hunter so much is it's very fine grains, because they meter so easily. I have also gotten excellent accuracy with it in several cartridges. In the .30-06, for instance, it is consistently more accurate with 180's than any other powder I've tried, and with top velocities too. Which is one reason I tried it in the .330 WSM.

I also don't use much RL-22 anymore for the very reason you state. I noticed it over and over again as well. In more consistent climates than Montana, of course, it works very well.

If none of the stores in Helena get RL-17 soon (and my order with Alliant doesn't come through) I'll have to come to Bozeman. Thanks for the tip on where to get it.

Brad, with your good results with R17 and the 300WSM, are you going to move the .308 Montana to the back of the gun safe?
What factors are you going to use you when you reach for either the 300WSM or .308?

By the way, I see you used Fed210 with R17. Any thoughts on using the Fed215?

Gonna have to try me some of that RL17, I guess, though when good ol' H4350 is working it's hard to manufacture a reason to mess with anything else...

The penetration I got with my .325 and the "tourist bullet" 200-gn Accubond left me zero desire to even consider a 220 in that cartridge. Maybe for giant bears or in a dedicated close-cover elk rifle or some other very specific circumstance...

The PROBLEM with owning a .325 Montana, or I suppose even a lowly 300WSM Montana <G>, is that it pretty much obsoletes everything else in the gunsafe!

I personaly like the idea of 140's in my 270wsm 165's in my 300wsm and 180's in the 325wsm. Thats just my combo that fits me.

I have done more killing with the 180's in the 325wsm than the other wsm's. It works good! One of the killes with the 325wsm (MY BUDDY's KILL MY RIFLE) was at about 200yds shooting 180gr TSX at a nice bull caribou. The shot was in the right front shoulder and pass threw the left hind quarter. DRT.... Its good stuff.......

Perfect. One butt shot and it's love.

Toggled toltec's post to see if was actually contributing something for a change, or just continuing his essentially parasitic behavior... It's the latter, no surprise. Guy has never posted a hunting STORY, that I've seen, much less a picture, but he sure seems to think he's entitled around here.

To keep the record factually correct, something Toltec and his band of poo-flinging monkees don't care about but I do...

What has given me the warm fuzzies with respect to the 8mm AB is a butt shot on deer where the bullet smashed the hip, then went 39" and ended up under the bucks chin. 70% weight retention. This at nearly point-blank range. Fuggin' perfection.

Next up was a huge cow elk at 275 yds at a sharp up-hill angle. Bullet hit her "elbow" first, right on the heavy joint, smashing it then traversed on a slight diagonal through the upper heart and ended up under the hide forward of the opposite shoulder. Mrs. Elkie went DOWN and currently resides in my freezer.

Next up was a raghorn bull at a trot at around 150 yds. Through the ribs and exited. The bulls momentum carried him maybe 60 yards before he crashed.

In addition to that, I've seen two DRT kills on elk with the 225-gn 33, and killed a large blacktail buck with the 180-gn .30 cal. All perfection, again.

There. Now people can decide for themselves, based on the facts, not on some idiot's misrepresentations.

Well.....I guess if your aim is only good 1/3 of the time, I can see why you like them bigger for critter rifles. Seems like the old theory of " I use a big enough gun so even if my shot aint good, it'll still hurt em bad enough to kill em"!....grin


Dont get all hot and bothered JO , I just couldn't resist.

In what way is shooting an elk through the top of the heart at 275 yards "bad aim", 'Cub? The elbow was between me and the heart and was incidental, that's why we use good bullets.

Or are you referring to shooting a trotting bull through the lungs, with about 1.5 seconds to get on target and shoot? Yep, THAT'S some bad shooting <g>.

Don't join the poo-flingers, Cub. You are better than that. Misrepresenting facts is just flat-out wrong. Play fair.

I forget the original poster but the other day someone wrote the best thing I've heard in a while. To Paraphrase "You can't kill them too dead, but you CAN kill them slowly enough to make tracking tough". Or as Robert Ruark said "Use Enough Gun".

Not too many critters the 325 isn't enough for...........................DJ

i doubt any elk could tell the difference

Momentum carried him 60 yards? Must have fallen off a cliff. GMAB. Same old stuff. Enough said.

That about sums it up.Best post of the whole thread!

Yep,

I already have a 300 WSM and a 338 so I don't need a 325 WSM,but if I were gonna get a new rifle in a short mag it would most likely be a 338 Ruger short mag.

Exactly which imperceptable gap in my rifle battery it would fill,I am at a loss to say considering that I already have a Ruger in 350Rem Mag.

It is a sad day when you conclude that you already have enough(way too many) rifles,but it's a burden I must bear.The worst part is that I now must agree with my wife about the lack of need for another gun.

Britt: These days, I'm happy to just grab a rifle and go hunting without concern about whether I have exactly the RIGHT one

I'm more concerned with using great bullets,and making sure the damn thing stays zeroed,and works like it should

Hey, keep it clean! There could be kids reading this.

That IS the truth......

Even if we never "upgraded" again, with either existing cartridges that we may not own or any newer ones that will inevitably come out, I'm sure that most of us already have from mice to elephants well covered.

It is now, for me anyway, more about, "did it maintain the same POI and can I still put it where I want to given several different scenarios".

I fully expect that the majority of us more "senior" guys haven't made such a off base or mismatched "cartridge to animal choice" in the last many years as to have such a combination fail miserably, IF we do what we need to on all other fronts. Even our choices of bullets a few decades back would and often still suffice quite nicely, but trying different bullets/powders in an 'ole tried and true rifle keeps us "familiar" with that firearm and then just maybe, we might chance upon a new diamond in the rough.

If my 'ole and new timers shoot and work as expected and I can get my azz to do the same, then I have no doubt as my cheek comes to rest on the stock as to the expected outcome at the shot.

I'd agree.......I don't expect that there's "exactly the RIGHT one" for any BGA that a poll would place so far ahead of the next 3 choices as to make it the definitive answer. I think it's more about what I do or have done many days prior to the "actual" hunt that gives me much more confidence than any cartridge that I might be packin' along on that particular day...............

YMMV..........

magnumb: "Truer words...."....you know the rest

That may or may not be true; I dunno. I tend to agree though.

What I DO know is that I can tell the difference! My .325 comes in noticeably faster, lighter, shorter rifles than my .338, or any other .338 I've been around.

That's sort of the whole point of the WSM's, for me at least. The rifle that comes wrapped around it <G>...

[/quot]

What I DO know is that I can tell the difference! My .325 comes in noticeably faster, lighter, shorter rifles than my .338, or any other .338 <G>...[/quote]


jeff, what do you mean, comes in noticeably faster? are you talking velocity cause i dont think so?shorter, well maybe 1/2 at action all else being equal.lighter maybe, but isnt kimber making 338s now?

Kimber is making 338 Win Mags now. If you get a chance go pick one up and handle it and then pick up and handle the 325 WSM Montana. They are distinctly different rifles. If you are a larger person with long arms you might prefer the larger and heavier 338 Montana. Most Average sized people I beleive will prefer the WSM sized rifle, Ladies would probably prefer a 84M in 338 Federal!.........................DJ

DJ, the only way the 338 WM Montana would work for me would be to shorten the barrel to 23" and shorten the forearm by an inch. That could be accomplished without much problem but the stock would need to be repainted.

The WSM Montana's are good to go as they are.

I think of the Kimbers as "Goldilocks" rifles, they come in too small, too large and just right .......................DJ

Hmmm... the 84's, for me, are "just right"... the WSM's don't quite satisfy the inner rifle looney, but since I put a smaller, lighter 6x36 on mine the handling characteristics and balance changed to make it more than acceptable.

I went 9.3x62 instead of WSM last year

Whoop, have tried Magnum Primers with the 300 WSM and various powders and it never did anything more than the standard primers, but gave bigger ES's.

As to the 300 WSM over the 308... I never quite liked the 300 with the 3-9x40LR on top... when I changed it out for the 6x36LR the handling/balance really changed the entire rifle for me. I kinda fell back in love with it.

When I change out the bolt handle for the Ti version from Schmaltz, the 300 WSM will come in just under 7lbs 2oz's all-up. That's about 14oz's more than the 308, but it's a lot more rifle beyond 300 yards than the 308, no getting around that.

So yeah... the 308 will get relegated to backup status most likely. Where I hunt woods ranges are the norm but the possibility of a 400 - 600 yard shot is always there and I've more confidence in the 300 WSM at those ranges.

Also, since I found out I'll not be using the monolithic-expanding type bullets anymore (like the TTSX/etip/blah, blah), I'll be using a 165 cup and core of some sort in the 308. Likely a 165 Partition or Speer Hotcore. They go 2,750 in my rifle and shoot plenty flat, but a 180 at 3,000+ is all that and more.

338RCM, by "faster" I meant faster-handling. I wasn't clear...

Brad, having that 300 WSM barrel bored out to 8mm REALLY makes 'em handle perfect... Heh heh...

The WSM Montanas are just... wonderful. They fit me perzactly and the "perch belly" stock doesn't bug me in the least. The LA Kimbers make me feel like a little kid holding dad's rifle; they are looong. And I'm 6-4"!!

It's really too bad they didn't make a minimum-scaled action for the 30-06 family of cartridges, the way they did the .308 and WSM's... That woulda rocked...

338WM all the way!

I am going 35 Whelen instead of WSM this year.

325WSM all the way! It shoots flater than the 7mm Ultra Mag loaded up with VLD's and hits harder that a 458 Lott..... :GRIN:

8 Rem mag

Of the 2 the 338.

trader......grin....

Hey,
What's this 8mm rem mag stuff?

Tim,
I think Mike like the belt... :GRIN:

Either will do the job, but it is easier to find 338 Win. Mag. cartridges on the shelves of smaller stores than it is 325 WSM cartridges. All else being equal, I'd go with the the 338.