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All the talk of boning out a Elk in the "Elk Hunting on Public Land" thread got me to thinking about what a hunting buddy of mine once told me. He told me that the meat would be very tough if the meat was not allowed to get to the rigor stage prior to boning it out. Now understand I have slept a few winks since that conversation more than two years ago so I may have not quoted exactly as he said it. But basically he was of the opinion that for best results the meat should be left on the bone.

My questions for those of you with experience boning out Elk / Deer...

Will the quality, taste, tenderness, ect. of the meat be compromised by boning out the meat and does it matter when a critter is boned out?
Boning won't affect flavor but tenderness might be an issue. However, I'm not one to pack full quarters a couple miles to the road with all that heavy bone intact. I often leave the leg bones in, depending on conditions, but the ribs, spine, etc. stay where they are.
That sounds kinda strange to me. Allowing the muscles to go through rigor is not the same chemical process as aging. Debone, then age if it matters to you.
Deboning is intimidating for those who have never done it and I understand the hesitancy, but it's totally worth it. If you don't want to do it at night, gut the elk and at least grab some choice cuts, debone one ham, then come back in the morning. It's certainly easier to do with daylight.
The problem with boning before the whole rigor process is the way some hunters do it.

If individual muscles are take off the bone before going into rigor, or after going into rigor but before leaving it, they can contract or stay contracted. This makes them tougher, and aging won't help. A similar thing happens when meat freezes before or during rigor.

If you do bone out an animal, keep the chunks of meat as big as possible, instead of stripping off individual muscles as is sometimes suggested. For instance, cut the ham into two big chunks from either side of the femur.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Boning won't affect flavor but tenderness might be an issue. However, I'm not one to pack full quarters a couple miles to the road with all that heavy bone intact. I often leave the leg bones in, depending on conditions, but the ribs, spine, etc. stay where they are.


AND, the ribs, spine, and remaining meat feed other critters - they got to eat too.
In all my years hunting elk and moose I have never heard that.

All of the elk and moose I have ever killed or been with people who have killed, we got the hide off them and then deboned ASAP. It's critical to get the meat cooled quickly. My common sense tells me that deboning would only hasten the cooling process. I have never had any issues with meat immediately deboned being tough. I did see the front shoulder of a non deboned moose spoil once. I suspect if it had been deboned the meat would have cooled more quickly and possibly not spoiled.

Don't confuse deboneing with aging. You can debone it immediately and then still age it under controlled conditons and wind up with very palitable meat.

Randy
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
If individual muscles are take off the bone before going into rigor, or after going into rigor but before leaving it, they can contract or stay contracted. This makes them tougher, and aging won't help. A similar thing happens when meat freezes before or during rigor.


Mule Deer, I believe that is exactly what my friend said, that is the part about the muscles contracting and staying that way would make the meat tough. His view was if you were going to bone one out to wait a day or so before doing so.
i took a meat cutting course and dont remember anything like that. personally i say cut em up - they are dead and dont know the differance. i have usually cut them up on the spot, while warm. but not always. sometimes they are left overnight and cut up the next morning. never any issues with meat, taste or tenderness. if you are new to cutting one up dont worry -he cant feel a thing!! just make it look like the picture hanging on the wall in the meat market of the cuts and you will be fine. it dont matter if one is a little bigger or smaller than the other. the single biggest bit of advise i would give is dont gut it- just start to take it apart till a pile of bones are left.
99guy, I do not believe I am confusing deboning with aging.

Aging as I understand it is typically the process of "hanging" the meat for a period of time to allow the natural breakdown of the muscles thus making the meat more tender while deboning is the process of separating the meat from the bone.

rayporter, not new to cutting up critters. I process all my game but have never deboned one prior to processing for the freezer. Living in Indiana the law currently doesn't allow one to quarter or debone in the field (hopefully this will soon change) and all of the Elk and Deer that I or my group have killed out west we quartered and had hauled out by horse. This year I hope to draw a Deer tag in WY and plan to hunt far from the roads but will not have the luxury of horses.
That is good advise rayporter. Don't even bother gutting the thing. Pull the hide off it, quarter it, then debone. No reason to make a bigger mess than you have to.
The places that I have been fortunate enough to kill elk and moose in (and I include moose in the conversation, because their quarters are even bigger than an elk's)...there ain't no way I am carrying them bones x-miles on my back.

If you kill one and it drops dead in the road, I guess you have a few more options.

One of the previous posts suggested to keep the meat in as large a sections as possible. I can see the merit of that arguement as that is what we have always done. Once again, I have always deboned immediately and not had any issues. I'm just sharing my personal experiences. That is all I can tell you.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Boning won't affect flavor but tenderness might be an issue. However, I'm not one to pack full quarters a couple miles to the road with all that heavy bone intact. I often leave the leg bones in, depending on conditions, but the ribs, spine, etc. stay where they are.


+1
99guy, your personal experiences is what I am looking for and I appreciate your contribution to this thread.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
If individual muscles are take off the bone before going into rigor, or after going into rigor but before leaving it, they can contract or stay contracted. This makes them tougher, and aging won't help. A similar thing happens when meat freezes before or during rigor.


Based on my own experience, I think there's something to this. Two years ago I shot a 2 1/2 year-old fat mulie buck right before dartk. I dressed it, sliced out the backstraps within the hour, and hung the hams and shoulders bone-in overnight. I boned the rest out the next morning and hauled it all out. At home I tried the backstrap first and it was tough. So I was kind of dreading chewing on the rest, but the rest of it (besides the backstrap) was tender, just like you'd expect. Same thing with the cow elk I shot last year--shot it right before dark, skinned it, cut out the backstraps, and hung the rest bone-in overnight. Tough backstrap and tender chops from the rest.
I am not entirely sure but I am under the impression that the "aging process" is to evaporate moisture from the muscle and to break down the connetive tissue resulting in more tender meat. I am not sure if boning or rigor has any effect on it? I know that all the deer I have ever shot have never been processsed for at least 24 hours and are never tough. In West Virgina we have to take deer to the checking station first, I just cant imagine the looks I would get trying to check in 4 quarters a head and a rib cage. Maybe elk are different?
Well, just imagine the looks you'd get hauling a whole elk out on your back!!!!
Yea, by about 4 times.

Loss of moisture is dessication and the best way to ruin good cuts. "Aging" is a chemical reaction within the muscle and connective tissue cells that breaks down the cell structure.
I took some meat cutting classes in high school. what Mule Deer said is spot on with what learned.

its been a while, but its a form of bacteria? that grows in 34-40 degree's that "tenderizes" the meat by breaking down fibers. boning or even quartering will allow muscle to contract, I have no proof of this, and the theory wasnt made up for wild game, but for the best beef products, try and go into a bucher shop and cut on a prime beef before it is properly aged, and you will have a knife stuck in your back!

all of this is mute, cause if it has to be boned out, it has to be boned out!
I guess I've never worried too much about elk being tough, but I worry about getting it cooled out quickly. In past years we've done several retrievals of whole elk (gutted) with hide on when we could get it hung to skin in a couple hours. Leave that hide on much longer than that and the neck meat really gets warm. There's a lot to be said for being young and strong.

I'm a little older now, and old guys try to figure ways to do things easier. I've done it every way imaginable and won't get into the gut or no gut arguement. But the elk will have to be really close to a vehicle for me to move the bones from where it fell. If I can't eat it, I ain't gonna carry it...
I think Mule Deer has it right.
Keep the pieces as big as possible.
Up here you're not even allowed to bone meat in the field, as there are concerns about wasting meat. And of course leaving it overnight isn't an option either, brown bears and all. If it's too big for two guys to get out in one trip (moose, roosevelt elk) Me and my buddies pack it out in rotation so one dude carries a load while one keeps cuttingand guarding the carcass, and then when the first guy gets back he starts cutting while the other guy packs. plenty of 20 mile days like this, and God knows I'll get smart one day, and float hunt,but for now I like to be stubborn. Like the man said, "Strong like bull, smart like tractor."
Can't bone it out? Wow! People that dreamed up that law couldn't have been hunters.

That means if I ever get to AK, guess I'll be shooting out the window of the truck! Ooops, probably can't do that either!
Dry aging will result in loss of moisture wich will result in a weight loss of the meat but will not ruin it see link

http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/meat_quality/aging_meat.html

I dont know if you could say it is a chemical reaction or not but it has more to do with time and temperature than any thing else.
Smoke, I think if you could carry a whole elk on your back, most folks wouldnt even look at you and would problably say "yes sir"
175rltw: My interpretation of the Alaska rules was that with moose etc the long bones were to remain in the legs (or portions of legs) while the back bone and ribs could stay in the field. Even the non-gutting technique video that non-residents are required to watch makes that implication.

The regulations were going though a shake up back when we made our first trip up. With some obvious cases of wanton waste at the time, a regulation requiring bone in transport was proposed. Transporters resisted the bone in deal for obvious reasons (excess weight), and the compromise came down to long bones only. My moose was checked in the field with all the bags being weighed. All the legs carried their long bones and I passed muster. Antlers or horns will not come to camp though until all meat has made it in.

My only resistence to boning in the field is the long term storage and added surface area issue. If I'm truck hunting and will make it to a cooler at the end of the day, boning is fine.

That is typically not the case though as I usually get away and will not return for 12 to 15 days. If the meat will be hanging in camp for another 10 days, I want to minimize exposed surface area and will bring out full quarters. A couple of years ago I lucked out with snow and a 1-mile down hill pull, and got a raghorn bull into camp and on the meat pole in one piece. My goal was to have it up before anyone returned. I almost made it, but a buddy walked in just as I was hooking the carcass to the pickup to hoist it up. Likely that will never happen again.

With our chronic wasting issues down here, interstate transport in at least the Pacific northwest is mandating that spines and brains will not cross state lines. That being, I now wait until the last evening, remove those components and head out in the morning.

Again, boning probably cuts ones pack weight by about 30%. While there are likely some educated individuals on this site, I'd suggest the majority of hunters lack the skills needed to dismember an animal in the field and deliver a clean and palatable product to the table. The job is a cinch if one is in 2 feet of snow, but some planning and preparation are needed if one is going to single handedly roll a moose or elk around in pine needles on a 80% slope and bring a good clean cut back to camp. Time and patience will certainly help. 1Minute
Originally Posted by 270LightningBLR
Smoke, I think if you could carry a whole elk on your back, most folks wouldnt even look at you and would problably say "yes sir"


I did carry a whole elk on my back - Once

They had two calfs down about two miles in on rolling sage hills. We had 5 guys and were trying to drag both elk through the sage with no snow. It was turning out to just be a pushing pulling tripping tug-o-war match. So I said screw it and took the smallest one with a log between her rear hocks bent down pressed the log over my head leaned forward and took off.

Bad thing is it was the night before my season started and I was out there past midnight helping them.

TRUE STORY, done the same with a few deer I have shot in the sage, did the same with my doe last year. The elk was the heaviest I ever did that with. But the doe last year was the hardest - I think becuase I am not as young as I used to be. COL
muscles will still relax after rigor whether they're on the bone or not... doesn't seem to make a difference in my experience. The real difference in flavor and texture of the meat comes in aging. Of course the absolute biggest difference it the tenderness of the meat has to do with the animal itself.

The only non-edible portions of the animal I'll pack out of the backcountry on my back are the thin fascial membranes separating muscle groups.
1Minute- yeah you are correct on that, lower leg bones spine etc are all ok to remove. BUT- that still leaves WAY more bone in than it seems aome people are willing to deal with. And yeah, it is all do to wanton waste. Bottom line when fish and game flies over your carcass and cant see the ground under it your in trouble. Meat salvage is such a big deal, and then after all that probably 85 perent of guys leave the meat withthe outfitter or transporter to donate, or do it straight up themselves to the village.

As to the road hunting, no issue most places, as in step out of your vehicle and off the road and blast away, that's a real popular way of dealing with moose, and everytime I start to pickup a 200lb pack which I know I'll get to carry at least 3 of... Well I can see the appeal at that moment, but damn I like to get off the beaten path a little. But then I guess that's what sheep hunting is for.
I've done the gutless method on 2 elk and 1 moose, leaving the bones in the hills. Never had a problem with toughness...course we aged em right and they were as tender as any that had bone left in. Not much of a study, but that's how it ended up with these 3 critters. We did leave the meat in as big of pieces as we could.
Ever heard the old saying "Ask 100 different people a question, you'll get 100 different answers"?
Yeah, but a lot of scientific research has been done on how various things affect meat at various stages. We often discover them inadvertently as we hunt for a long time, but what I've mentioned here is stuff that's been confirmed by experimentation at various places, especially the U. of Wyoming, which has a very fine meat science program.

My wife and I have confirmed a lot of this science in years of processing big game of almost every type. In a shameless bit of promotion, I would suggest thast anybody who wants to read about the details of how and why should buy her latest cookbook, which goes into all this (along with including well over 100 recipes for strictly big game, and other stuff). It's available through our website, www.riflesandrecipes.com
A few years ago, a guy on another forum drew a moose tag in ME. He said the law in ME at that time was that a moose could be gutted but otherwise had to come out whole. Needless to say, most moose hunting was done from the road. Only an idiot got any farther from the road than his winch cable could reach. They've since changed the law, thank goodness.
Another fine example of people who don't hunt writing and voting on hunting laws.
Just find shade, lay out your painters ground tarp and start chopping into pieces. Better to get it out of the sun. Rarely is it cold enough to let it lay around and age or close enough to get it out whole. I clean it where it lays and get on it as soon as the high fiving is over.

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How far did you drag him to get to that nice open flat place? Mine always hit the dirt on a 45 degree slope in the sagebrush.
That's where I popped him.

The one before was on a 45 degree scree slope and I had to drag him 25 yards down to a few pines and tie him off to keep him from sliding 250 more yards.
This ones about 11,000 feet in the middle of a huge bowl. He brought his herd through about 10am.
Originally Posted by 1minute
175rltw:
Again, boning probably cuts ones pack weight by about 30%. While there are likely some educated individuals on this site, I'd suggest the majority of hunters lack the skills needed to dismember an animal in the field and deliver a clean and palatable product to the table. ... 1Minute


The DOW of Colorado puts out a DVD called 'down to the bone' which teaches you how to do this. It's their way of getting people to get deeper in to hunt. Lighter pack out = you can pack further.
Newbie question here buy hom many knifes does this take to get accomplished? Do you use one or two and keep sharping them or have for or five in the pack?
One good four inch blade and a field sharpener is all you need.
Try a Havalon Piranta pro for $30 or $40. It's a very nice folder with detachable scalpel blades. Super light and works great. I was given mine as a gift. Everyone who has seen me use it buys one.
I second the Havalon knives, surgical sharp but I wouldn't go to the woods with just the Havalon alone. I use mine mainly for skinning.
I agree with that. I have a nice 4 inch Case with small sharpening stone and a 8 inch saw. Throw in a painter's ground cloth from home depot and 4 game bags which I vacuum pack and you are ready to roll.
Originally Posted by mohave_mauler1
Newbie question here buy hom many knifes does this take to get accomplished? Do you use one or two and keep sharping them or have for or five in the pack?

I've been carrying one of these for many years. Skinning an elk really takes the edge off a knife. A little touchup every now and again really speeds things up.
This particular one is $8 from Cabelas and it works well on broadheads, too.
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Thanks for the info. Getting a new knife soon will look into the Havalons
Just a personal preference on cutlery for myself:
Cabela's Outfitter Series fixed blade knife. I'm on my third because I do dumb stuff like try to pry things I shouldn't or lose them. But I like a good quality largish (4-5") fixed blade for elk. Also carry a sharpener and a backup knife in case I get stupid with my main knife.
Only other thing I like is a small hatchet rather than a bone saw. I use a Gerber. Heck of a lot faster and less fragile than most saws, but not as clean if you know what you're doing with a saw. I split the pelvis and brisket with my hatchet and/or remove lower leg bones if a horse is available. Last year my buddie's horse freaked with the lower leg bones attached to the quarters so we had to hack them off of everybody's elk and I was the only one with a hatchet. It can be done with a knife, but it's easier with a hatchet.
This guy was on just enough of a slope that those ropes are there partly because he was sliding down the hill a bit... Camera doesn't really catch it though.

I shot him in the morning, and had him on the meatpole by dark. I left the bones in the quarters; as 1minute says, to completly bone him out would have been too messy for this noob.

It was hot enough that I got the hinds pulled off and hanging in the shade before I hiked out to get my quarter bags and pack frame. Seemed to work, there's a LOT of heat stored in those rear quarters and getting them cooling is job #1!

I did the whole thing with a Gerber hunting folder that has a bone saw blade. It worked, but the bone saw was more appropriate for a deer than an elk IMHO. a little bit of cussin' getting through the leg bones etc. The other elk I killed last year, I mostly used a Buck Vanguard, the rubber-handled one. That's a good knife too.

I do like a tiny little Gerber ultralight folder for parts of the gutting. Big knife = more potential for mayhem- for me anyways.

Top pic is roped-off elk, bottom shows the Gerber, folded up unfortunatly.

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I boned 4 bucks last year in the field. I like an Ingram for the job.

Biggest thing about boning in the field is to get set up with a good system to keep your meat clean. A lightweight plastic tarp works ok.

I find the meat is best if I leave it for 4 days in the refrigerator before freezing. I ate some backstrap about 30 hours after killing it, and it was super tough.
+1 on the tarp.

4 days in the fridge, eh?
I will have to try that-I have only killed 3 mule deer(yes, I am a Noob!) but I froze the meat within 6-8 hrs after popping the critters.
Most of the meat was not all that nice to eat, honestly.
frown
Originally Posted by 175rltw
Up here you're not even allowed to bone meat in the field, as there are concerns about wasting meat.


To clarify, don't take this a general regulation. It applies only in certain places and at certain times of the year. It is intended to give a bit more strength to the wanton waste laws. (And who wants to go to the trouble of hunting, killing, cutting, and hauling out their animal only to find that it is inedible afterwards anyway?)


Originally Posted by 99guy
Can't bone it out? Wow! People that dreamed up that law couldn't have been hunters.

That means if I ever get to AK, guess I'll be shooting out the window of the truck! Ooops, probably can't do that either!


Actually it is a good law for hunters - though it may not appear that way on the front side. (See above.)

If anything, Alaska itself is not a very friendly place in many ways, for hunters. Even with modern helps, a lot of hunts are anything but easy/simple. Then again, that part of what people expect.
I've quartered even some deer here in Oklahoma when it was hot and the check stations act like you are a freak.
rnr has a great suggestion. The Colorado DOW video is excellent. They show you A to Z how to bone it out and what they use for knives, tarps, leaving evidence of sex on the carcass, etc. An excellent DVD and well worth it. I can't speak to the aging process of bone in vs. bone out. I do know that the meat will also age in the freezer as well. There was an article on it in the American Hunter a few years back on the subject.

Here's the link to the DVD:
http://wildlife.state.co.us/wildlifeStore/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=D07

There's also a preview of the DVD on the DOW website. Enjoy.
Elk
I use a Cutco with the Double D edge. I've field dressed and home butchered 3-4 elk and 3-4 deer before it needed factory sharpening again. We've used our thin, disposable space blankets for laying out meat during the boning process; that way you get potentially double function from a piece of gear (something I always like), though we toss them after the boning. Cutting the legs off through the joints with a knife also dispenses with the need for carrying a saw, if you are in deep. Quartering with the gutless method also removes the quarters in super fast time to start the cooling process faster.
Sure cuts down on the "bloody" mess.
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