30-30 for elk hunt

Posted by: cutNshoot

30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 08:34 AM

Think i will take the Marlin 30as 30-30 on my elk hunt.Y guys have any thoughts?
Posted by: BroncoLope

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 08:52 AM

laughing... are you trying to start a sh)&(^&t storm..

IMHO.. 30-30 will do the job fine used within its limitations..
Posted by: ingwe

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 08:56 AM

Originally Posted By: BroncoLope
laughing... are you trying to start a sh)&(^&t storm..



Kinda what I thought...

That might be what we call a "loaded" question.... wink

Ingwe
Posted by: 700LH

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 09:06 AM

If your a responsible/experienced enough hunter to hunt elk with 30-30, I doubt you'd need to ask.

30-30 could get the job done but it isn't a first choice caliber IMHO.
Posted by: Hemi

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 09:23 AM

If you use the search function I am sure you will be able to find amble discussion on this topic as it has been discussed before serverl times. After that you can search the bullet choice for a 30-30 and then search for range limits of a 30-30. All of this has been covered before.
Sorry for my rant, but gheesh. Every year around this time come the q's about bullet choice, max range, mininum cartridge, and such. Not that they are bad q's, just that the loonies come out and as said before- starts a chit storm.

Hemi
Posted by: guyandarifle

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 09:55 AM

My standardized answer for such queries is:

A 30-30 will absolutely kill an elk. It is not the best choice if others are available to you. If you are stuck with a 30-30 find the best bullets you can in the caliber and become very familiar with the cartridges shortcomings.

If people can kill elk with revolvers and bows you can kill them with a 30-30.
Posted by: VAnimrod

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 10:19 AM

<sniff>

<sniff>

Bad bait.............................

And the motor's running rough.............. Too fast, too.........

Damned hook likely ain't even sharp........
Posted by: bigsqueeze

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 11:23 AM

CutNShoot..............As long as you`re aware of the 30-30`s range limitations, and you are going to hunt in the type of terrain where shorter ranged shots are the majority, you`ll be fine.

People bow hunt elk all the time, so a 30-30 within 125 yards (assuming you have a scope) using a heavier bullet should do just fine.
Posted by: Rock Chuck

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 12:10 PM

You can't compare a bow to a 30-30 or any other caliber. An arrow kills very differently from a bullet. It cuts and causes severe bleeding. A bullet bulls it's way through and blows the hell out of anything in it's way.
Posted by: 1minute

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 12:22 PM

If it was the only rifle available and I had a tag, I'd get out there.
Posted by: CGPAUL

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 12:22 PM

Rock Chuck...so then the bullet hole dosen`t bleed???


LOL I`m sorry...just had to ask the question.
Posted by: olhippie

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 12:25 PM

....It's been proven that a 30/30 can kill any animal on earth if it is properly placed in thier anatomy. In the case of an elephant for example, the gun is shoved down the critter's throat, and thence lodging in the beasts intestinal tract it will bring death within 6 days, to 2 weeks, of the horrible blockage in it's digestive system.*wink* (a new answer to an old question)
Posted by: SUPERDIESEL1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 12:55 PM

That's pretty funny stuff hippie. Even funnier is so has a spear. Now if you can just get the 30-30 to shoot the spears. This is about the equal to taking a .243 after Griz. Sure, it can do it. But why when there is so many other respectful calibers out there. I shoot elk with big stuff (378Wby and a 416 Swift that is a necked down 505 Gibbs case). Sure it's not needed. However is there anything wrong with full coverage insurance and a big drain hole when you can shoot it well?
Posted by: duckster

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 01:33 PM

Will work fine within its limitations, as said above. I hunted moose in Alberta with a old outfitter who, over the last 30 years, had shot 11 grizzly in and around his camps with a beat up old Marlin .30-30. Now, the .30-30 is not really the best grizzly cartridge out there, but used within its limits by someone who knew what they were doing, he is there and 11 bruins are not. FWIW
Posted by: cutNshoot

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 02:39 PM

Uncle and papa killed many elk and moose with the 30-30 and 25-35 . Much better hunters than we have today.
Posted by: Hemi

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 02:51 PM

Originally Posted By: cutNshoot
Uncle and papa killed many elk and moose with the 30-30 and 25-35 . Much better hunters than we have today.


Yeah, but those were the elk of the past. These new modern elk have thicker hide (similar to kevlar) and stronger bigger bones. Plus, back then people really didn't know what dead was. When people of the past use to shoot animals that would fall down (thought to be dead) and then proceed to gut and process these animals they were wrong. New scientific evidence proves that these elk are not actually dead. laugh

Hemi
Posted by: Ranch13

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 04:54 PM

Posted by: mw406

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 08:44 PM

Now that's a good way to end a discussion Ranch13, and we were just getting started.
Posted by: bigsqueeze

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/01/09 11:40 PM

Originally Posted By: Rock Chuck
You can't compare a bow to a 30-30 or any other caliber. An arrow kills very differently from a bullet. It cuts and causes severe bleeding. A bullet bulls it's way through and blows the hell out of anything in it's way.
.............I wasn`t comparing the wound channel differences between an arrow and a bullet. I am well aware of the differences between the two after impact.

My comparison was ONLY in regard to the shooting distance. Meaning; since elk are hunted and killed all the time WITH a bow at shorter distances, then using a 30-30 at 100-125 yards on elk won`t be a problem.
Posted by: IBUY50BMGBRASS

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/02/09 10:30 AM

Hornaday has an FTX bullet for the 30-30 that will give you far better ballistics than standard flat-nose bullets, these are the LeverEvolution series of bullets. 175-200 yards has to be the outer limit for an ethical kill. If you penetrate two lungs with a .30 cal bullet the job should get done just fine, but a sholder-shot may destroy the bullet.

Hornaday "soft" tip 30/30 bullet, you must call for Ballistics now because some rifles may not be able to handle the added presure from the 2100FPS loads. I would like to use my 30/30 for deer hunting in Indiana but we are limited to Pistol-Caliber rifles or shotgun slugs (some slugs are proving to do well past 100 yards).

.308 30 CAL (FOR 30-30 WIN) 160 GR FTX
http://www.hornady.com/media/ftx_load_data/30-30_win_ftx.pdf
Posted by: IBUY50BMGBRASS

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/02/09 10:36 AM

This Hornaday loading data shows 2400 FPS for 30/30, but the pressure may be too high for your rifle. Call Hornaday and the manufacturer of your rifle. This is getting closer to .308 rifle and would be great for shots under 250 yards on an Elk. I assume this is for a 20"-22" barrel. If you have a shorty carbine then forget about hunting with it anyway.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=ballistics/popup&product_sku=82730

Call Hornaday and your Rifle manufacture prior to loading something like this up.
Posted by: buttstock

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/02/09 05:45 PM

I have never hunted elk.

I have long enjoyed this post: (http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11266) which is about hunting with a 35 Remington. It includes an early paragraph using a 30-30 for elk hunting (it's possible). The article is well-written, and seems very pragmatic to me. Take it for what it's worth, and consider the source (not an elk hunter-but would like to some day).

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=11266
Posted by: MontanaCreekHunter

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/02/09 07:11 PM

You know what is the craziest thing about this topic and most every other on here? Everyone has an opinion. The problem is what is their opinion based on?

Fact #1 a .30-.30 will kill an elk stone dead.

Fact #2 So will a .22

fact #3 More important then the round used is what is your shooting skill level
Posted by: cowkiller

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/02/09 07:45 PM

If you can run that fast go ahead. Just run up to them and stick it in his side and pull the trigger.
For a comparison
a 30-30 170 gr. round nose leaves the muzzle at 2100FPS
a 30-06 165 gr. bullet is traveling pretty much the same speed at 450 yards.
those pudgy little round nose bullets lack sectional density and slow down fast from a pretty slow start.
Not a good choice for ELK
However if you limited your shots to 100yards it would do just OK.
I think it is irresponsible to hunt Elk sized critters with a 30-30.
I hate to see wounded animals.
Posted by: Mossy

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/02/09 08:21 PM

The first couple elk I killed were with a Marlin 30-30. The first one was a spike when I was 10 years old,about 3 months out of hunters safety.

I think my brothers and I killed either 3-4 elk with our 30-30s before anyone told us we didn't have enough gun. wink
Posted by: Ranch13

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/02/09 08:49 PM

Originally Posted By: mw406
Now that's a good way to end a discussion Ranch13, and we were just getting started.

eekNaw it never ends. Don't much matter what cartridge it is that's prooven itself more than adequate, there's always those around that haven't hunted elk, havent used the cartridge in question that have plenty of uninformed opinions.
The grandmother of the young man in that picture probably killed more elk with her 25-20 than the greenhorns that need a 338 or bigger will ever kill in their lives.
It's got more to do with where the bullet goes than howmuch testostrone is splattered about the countryside when ever the mighty hunter yanks the trigger on his mighty flinchmaster.
Posted by: dennisinaz

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/02/09 11:03 PM

I have killed several elk with my old mod 94 top eject carbine. I always used regular Silvertips; both 150s and 170s. I have also killed an elk and a large bear with a 32 Win special which is basically a 30-30.

I much prefer a 30-30 to a 243 when hunting elk. I think it's a great idea. You aren't going to bowl them down at 500 yds, but that's why it's called hunting.

In checking my records, I have never killed an elk more than 100 yds away and most were <80 yds. I have killed a lot of elk. A 30-30 is perfect for this kinda stuff. I have killed more with a 300 WBY than anything else because I planned to whack one at 500 yds. It just never worked out that way.
Posted by: Montanaborn

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/05/09 06:31 AM

We take turns with my brother's 30-30. Whoevers turn it is to go down through the 'black hole' to flush the elk out of our honey-hole carries the 'brush popper' with him in case he needs to get a shot off. Sure can't use a scoped rifle down there.
Posted by: gmsemel

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/05/09 09:38 AM

Its plenty, just put the bullet where it needs to go and make sure you have a sharp knife and a strong back.
Posted by: Flinch

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/05/09 02:24 PM

I find it funny that the .308 is a great 300 yard elk killer, but the .30-30 is a 100 yard round at best. So 300 fps difference makes the .308 a giant killer, but the .30-30 is marginal? Guys, elk just aren't hard to kill. They aren't bullet proof, made of kevlar, nor do you need premium bullets to bring them down....especially in .30-30. I would have no problem whatsover knocking over elk at 250 yards or less for the rest of my life with the .30-30 and a 4x scope. The bullets and loads have moved it up to where the .308 used to be. It is no problem getting a 170 grain bullet safely to 2,200 fps. in the old war horse. That is what the .30-06 is shooting a 180 grain bullet at in the 200-300 yard range, depending on the load and bullet shape. Now who on here would hesitate to shoot an elk with a .30-06 at 200-300 yards? I have seen some big elk on the ground killed by old timers packing .30-30's and shooting 170 grain Winchester Silver Tips. Nearly every bullet was found perfectly mushroomed under the off side hide. Precious few of the elk I have seen killed were under 150 yards. It's a great round, not the best, but certainly capable of bringing home the bacon. The weak link is the dink behind the trigger nearly every time. Flinch
Posted by: cowkiller

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/05/09 10:12 PM

Originally Posted By: Flinch
The weak link is the dink behind the trigger nearly every time. Flinch


I find that funny coming from a guy who's handle is "flinch"
You stated getting 2200 fps from a 30-30(which by the way is than max load published in the nosler guide) with a 170 gr.round nose. That is at the muzzle. More like 2150 fps. Which means at 100 yards it is moving roughly 1800 fps which tranlates to 1300 ft pound of energy. Closer to what the 30-06 is doing at 400-450 yards. At 150 yards the 170 gr. round nose is barely carrying 1000 ft lbs of energy and is traveling at around 1600 fps.
Simply put it's not enough stick for a guy who feels he needs to ask.
For every BIG ELK you saw on the ground I wonder how many were wounded and died unrecovered? Not my idea of Sportsmanlike Ideals. AKA coyote food.
Oh and by the way the .308 is closer to 500 fps faster. with a 180 gr. bullet. With a lot sleeker bullet that retains speed much much better. Both will kill Elk and
I would much rather be shooting a .308 over a 30-30.
Since I have my druthers I would not use or recommend either for ELK.
Posted by: Ranch13

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 07:18 AM

So cowkiller what's your stance on the 44 magnum handgun as a hunting gun?
Posted by: CLB

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 07:41 AM

I really do like a good shooting 30-30. Having never shot an Elk, it would not be making the trip on my hunt. If i lived where some of you live, I would hunt with it, in the right conditions.

Where I hunt i see a lot of moose fall to a 30 30 each year, so no doubt it could kill Elk, especially with the 170gr NP which I would and do load currently.

If you hunt Elk in open areas and you feel you might have to "stretch" it a bit, better off leaving it home and opting for your 30-06.

One thing I do agree with is that if the original poster has to ask this question, he is not ready to hunt Elk with the 30-30.

Chris
Posted by: Just_Me

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 11:20 AM

Last month I took a 6x6, 316 5/8 elk in the Bob Marshall Wilderness of Western Montana that was called in & stood broadside to me, 27 feet from the muzzle of my rifle. A premium 160 grain bullet in 7 MM Rem destroyed his lungs. I could have easily shot him with a 30-30, but how many big bulls come in and stand broadside to a shooter, inside of 10 yards? Not very many!

My guide told me to put him on the ground (before he wandered off to where he was hard to recover or broke his antlers) so I put a shot into his shoulder ó which knocked him down but never made it to his chest cavity!!

IF, (big if) you limit yourself to perfect placements at very short range, a 30-30 MAY work, but with as much else as I invest in a elk hunt I would be XXXXXXX if I would hamstring myself by carrying a rifle that might not be enough. After seeing exactly what damage my 7 mag did, and did not do, on a big elk I would never hunt elk with less than a 7 mag & fully understand those picking up a .340 Weatherby.

I recommend you buy, borrow, lease, or some other way get your hands on something MORE than a 30-30 for your elk hunt.

I also wish you luck!

Posted by: Flinch

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 01:58 PM

Typical arm chair hunter paper analysis. And just how many elk have you killed? Energy is NOT what kills. Destruction of organs and arteries is. Hmm...an arrow has about what, 150 foot pounds of energy, if that? I have personally killed 15 elk with archery tackle. Don't even get me started on how many with guns of various calibers and bullet weights. I have a wee bit of experience to back up my post. So please tell me again how marginal the .30-30 is and how much elk killing experience you have? Oh, and the .44 magnum is a fabulous elk killer too, at about half the energy of the .30-30. Don't tell the muzzle loader guys they can't kill elk at 100-200 yards either. It can't be done. I guess I need to start hunting the elk in your area, since they are bullet proof and made of kevlar. I surely bow before your expertise of ballistics and elk hunting. I am truly not worthy of your presents. I am going to go eat worms now. Flinch
Posted by: Flinch

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 02:19 PM

So based on one meager kill, you have come to the conclusion that the 7mm is barely adequate? Your "premium" bullet wasn't so premium after all, perhaps? I have killed 6 bulls with the 7mm mag and not once used a premium bullet. All dropped at the shot....stone dead. I think you need more than one guided hunt and one kill under your belt to give an accurate assessment of a caliber's ability to kill elk.

I talked to some numbnut at the range last year that wanted to hunt elk with something bigger than his .375 HH magnum, because he lost his spike bull. He blamed the gun and the caliber, just like you. The gun wasn't big enough and didn't leave enough blood trail after he hit it 3 times (in his words). Your type crack me up. "GET THE BIGGEST GUN ON THE PLANET!" Flinch
Posted by: Coyote_Hunter

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 05:03 PM

Nothing wrong with a .30-30 and I've taken mine - as wll as my .44 Mag carbine. They are definitely a limiting factor, however, when the land is flat and the sage is low.
Posted by: Klikitarik

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 05:12 PM

Ironically, the same elk shoulder which stopped a very speedy bullet from a 7 Mag at 9 yards, might have had a much more difficult time with a rather ordinary 170 grain bullet traveling at the stately speed which the 30-30 imparts. Speed is not always a hunter's friend.
Posted by: Royce

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 05:39 PM

This is funny...
Posted by: Steelhead

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 05:44 PM

I'd use a bow.
Posted by: RDFinn

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 05:50 PM

Yes, but what would Lee24 use is the unanswered question.
Posted by: Jeff_O

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 06:05 PM

It'd be fun to hunt elk with a 30-30. One of the all-time cool rounds. I've not hunted elk with one, but I have carried a 45/70 elk hunting. Similar limitations, and the days I carried it weren't days I sat and watched saddles 250 yards away, but they were good days.

As long as a guy is willing to let elk walk that he could have kilt with a more normal elk round... no problem.

(As a general-purpose, public-land, elk rifle I'd give the 30-30 pretty low marks, though. By way of illustration, one of the elk I killed last year would've lived another day if I'd been using one, and the other elk I killed would have been right at the outer limit for a 30-30...)
Posted by: Coyote_Hunter

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 09:00 PM

Originally Posted By: cowkiller
...
You stated getting 2200 fps from a 30-30(which by the way is than max load published in the nosler guide) with a 170 gr.round nose. That is at the muzzle. More like 2150 fps.


My Marlin 336CS pushes 170g Nosler Partition RNís beyond 2200fps with ease.

Quote:

Which means at 100 yards it is moving roughly 1800 fps which tranlates to 1300 ft pound of energy. Closer to what the 30-06 is doing at 400-450 yards. At 150 yards the 170 gr. round nose is barely carrying 1000 ft lbs of energy and is traveling at around 1600 fps.

For the sake of accuracy...
1771fps and 184fpe for the 170g Partition RN @ 2200fps.
1643fps and 1019fpe at 200 yards Ė about what my .44 Mag revolver does at 45 yards with 240g bullets (1378fps and 1031fpe).

Of course with the Hornady LeverEvolution 165g ammo the .30-30 can do 1699fps/1025fpe at 300 yards. Thatís a bit past the 100 yard line...

Quote:

Simply put it's not enough stick for a guy who feels he needs to ask.
For every BIG ELK you saw on the ground I wonder how many were wounded and died unrecovered? Not my idea of Sportsmanlike Ideals. AKA coyote food.
Oh and by the way the .308 is closer to 500 fps faster. with a 180 gr. bullet. With a lot sleeker bullet that retains speed much much better. Both will kill Elk and
I would much rather be shooting a .308 over a 30-30.
Since I have my druthers I would not use or recommend either for ELK.


Simply put the .30-30 is plenty of rifle for elk. Every cartridge has its limits and the 30-30 limits out sooner than most, but I prefer it to a .243 Win which is widely used for elk.
Posted by: Patrick_James

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 09:25 PM

Buttstock,I enjoyed that link on the 35 remington.Sometimes I think I was borned a 100 years to late.
Posted by: Colorado1135

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 10:14 PM

I have used a 30-30 to kill a few elk, one went a total of 6 yards after the first shot, and the second got stiff legged and swayed in one spot so I put a second one into him just for good measure, he piled up and both bullets went through his heart.

that said I had a HUGE 6x6 trotting on flat open ground at 100 yards, who finally stopped at about 130 yards broad side and looked at me. it was an iffy shot as we were next to a canyon and although I knew I could make a good hit on him, I had set my limit to 100 yards for that rifle. looking back I'm sure I could have made the shot and taken the bull, but I had made up my mind before hand, and I wasn't about to make allowances in the heat of the moment just because he was big. I know well enough now I could have killed him easily.
I would put 130 yards my max range, and shot a little at different ranges between point blank and max and enjoy the hunt with the 30-30!
I'll be taking mine deer hunting this year, just because she's old reliable.
Good luck!
Posted by: cowkiller

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: Flinch
Typical arm chair hunter paper analysis. And just how many elk have you killed? Energy is NOT what kills. Destruction of organs and arteries is. Hmm...an arrow has about what, 150 foot pounds of energy, if that? I have personally killed 15 elk with archery tackle. Don't even get me started on how many with guns of various calibers and bullet weights. I have a wee bit of experience to back up my post. So please tell me again how marginal the .30-30 is and how much elk killing experience you have? Oh, and the .44 magnum is a fabulous elk killer too, at about half the energy of the .30-30. Don't tell the muzzle loader guys they can't kill elk at 100-200 yards either. It can't be done. I guess I need to start hunting the elk in your area, since they are bullet proof and made of kevlar. I surely bow before your expertise of ballistics and elk hunting. I am truly not worthy of your presents. I am going to go eat worms now. Flinch


Take your meds. You asked so I will tell you I have killed a total of 15 Elk over a span of the last 30 years. By the way that is pretty good for Oregon where tags are drawn for bulls on the East side of the state. Where I hunt our shots can range from 50 ft to 500 yards within a step or two. This is probably a lot different than where you hunt.maybe not. I also own a .44 magnum but I don't hunt Elk with it. I also hunt with a muzzleloader but again I do not hunt Elk with it as I apply for tags for rifle with my group each year.I would not be tempted to shoot beyond 150 yards with it.
I still believe a 30-30 is not a good choice for Elk for a guy who needs to ask. I never said it would not kill an Elk and The only time I mentioned energy was when comparing the .308 and how far apart the two really are.
I am sure a man with your experience provides you with enough knowlege to realize when you are being an [bleep] and from what I can tell this is one of them. enjoy your worms
Posted by: oldman1942

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/06/09 10:37 PM

Hornady flex tips have changed the 30-30 world. That said, why risk the loss of a fine game animal with a marginal cartridge when there are so many better choices? To put another spin on it why would you hunt a 600 pound Elk with a 30-30 but wouldn't think of tackling a 600 pound Grizzly with a 30-30? Maybe because one (generally) runs away and the other might not?

I'll stick with my 300 H&H, 9.3x62 or 400 Whelen, thanks, (of course we DO have Mr Griz in the neighborhood)

350 gr X + 400 Whelen =s dead Elk

Posted by: SUPERDIESEL1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 08:30 AM

[quote=oldman1942] one (generally) runs away and the other might not?

I'll stick with my 300 H&H, 9.3x62 or 400 Whelen, thanks, (of course we DO have Mr Griz in the neighborhood)

350 gr X + 400 Whelen =s dead Elk



First Elk I killed was with an 06. First 2 shots right in the boiler from 20 yards and they both went in the same hole but on different angles (just so happens), and I stepped out from my hide and he saw me. He put his head down let out a loud snort and charged!!! I put one more in his chest and it still took a few mins for him to expire (this CAN BE a tough animal)! Pretty spooky when they want you and are only a couple of yards away. I never heard of one charging before this point in my life. If any of them ever make though a round from my .378Wby they will be sick enough that they won't want any thing to do with me (I do neck shots still under 150-200yds or when able). This is the only place I would use a rifle of this low of power (30-30) myself for a humane non-suffering dispatch. But then again, I'm fortunate to not have to try to use one for this. I have difficulty with suffering animals.
Posted by: Iraklion

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 11:50 AM

Load the 170 Nosler partition or get the Federal factory load and limit your shots to 120 yards or so in the vitals. Done deal.
Posted by: btb375

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 12:30 PM

Oldman, please tell about your 400 whelen, looks cool
Posted by: taylorce1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 03:39 PM

I say go for it, me I'm hunting elk this year with a 1896 Springfield Krag shortened to 20" full stock carbine. Bullet of choice 180 grain Hornady RN, should be the ticket for elk in timber. Besides there are guys who still kill them with a patched round ball, the .30-30 should be able to do a little better than that!

Probably wouldn't hunt this way if I couldn't go elk hunting every year sometimes twice a year. Sure makes a difference when elk hunting isn't a once in a lifetime or every 4-5 year thing. I've got plenty of elk rifles better than the one I'm choosing this year but they aren't nearly as fun.
Posted by: SUPERDIESEL1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 04:08 PM

Yes tell us more. I know this was actually the only cartridge that the late Col. Whelen actually developed out of all the Whelen line. They've had good results here (US), CAN. and Africa. However head spacing can be a problem when necking the 06 case up above the 375 Whelen. Never the less, they were successful. It's on line with a 45-70 with slightly flatter trajectory. It has some womp to it. Sorry Oldman. Didn't mean to take any thing here. Please let us know what you think of it.
Posted by: oldman1942

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 04:22 PM

R.F Sedgley Deluxe Sporting Springfield built special order for a well known author. Originally had a Noske 2.5X in G&H mount as well as Lyman 48 in trap butt. Replaced that with Leupold 2.5X Alaskan in Jager mount (still has 48 too) when I had it restored by (now retired) chief stockmaker for Turnbull. Has the correct G&H/Whelen chamber and will shoot 300-400 grainers into 1.5" or better. 400 Whelens were damned because of incorrect chambers. See book Wildcat Cartridges (shameless plug as I published it) for Petrov's complete story of the 400 Whelen.
Pics of rifle and book (rifle on cover, publisher perk!)








Posted by: oldman1942

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 04:33 PM

The 35 Whelen debate may never end but the latest sources do say Whelen invented it and Howe built it. This rifle is a NRA sporter built at Springfield Armory in not 30-06 but 35 Whelen for the Col.
(Another great debate but the previous owner who i got it from had a step-father who was a barrel make at S.A. and that's his story)



A correct 400 Whelen is NOT just a necked up 30-06, it is actually "improved" with less body taper. The 411 Hawk is a newer
40 cal based on an 06 with a shorter neck hence more powder.
A correct 400 W and a 411 Hawk have the same body diameters, hence no, none, nada headspacing issues. Just another story one gunwriter wrote when confronted with an improperly chambered
400 W and repeated (as are no many) without fact checking by generations thereafter. Petrov tells the whole story including having 2 built on M70s that are tack drivers.
Posted by: Flinch

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 04:41 PM

Nice back peddling there "cow killer". And you make fun of my handle. Leave old Bessy alone, will ya!! It appears my numbers are right on the money based on other posters experience with the .30-30. Maybe you should stick with tipping cows and beers and leave the hunting to hunters. Take the pink pill, then the blue pill, pink then blue. You got it? Flinch
Posted by: kraky111

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 05:02 PM

I wouldn't be afraid to push the barnes 150 xfb made for 30-30 at an elk up to 150 yds. I load them for a buddies 30-30 and he's probably shot 7 deer with that bullet and never had a recovery.
When doing load developement we dug a bunch out of the sand at the shooting range at 100 yds. All had the picture perfect "x" and all had 95% plus wt still pushing that "x". I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of that bullet to 150 yds.
Posted by: peepsight3006

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 05:22 PM

Phooey! I hope the next guy that goes trolling hooks a hungry, man eating croc. Wouldn't touch that bait with a 10 foot pole.

Wayne
Posted by: SUPERDIESEL1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 05:50 PM

Thanks for the info Oldman. Yes,things are always subject to others interpretations and not always fact (220 Swift for example). Nice rifle. Your a lucky man. I'll stop beating around the bush here. I noticed there was room to move in a humane kill even with the 06 (which I love). In all honesty I would NOT carry a 30-30 my self for any elk hunt. This is based on my experiences and what I've witnessed.

Try this. Walk into a good gunsmithing school or a DOW in any state that has elk and tell them that your planning a hunt on them with your 30-30. Post back what your told.

A 444 is a step up and the 45-70 is even a FAR better choice than the 30-30 if keeping the range short. These are cool and fun to shoot calibers if a lever rifle is what you require.
Posted by: Jeff_O

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 05:51 PM

7mm Waters vs. 30-30.... grin...
Posted by: peepsight3006

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 07:37 PM

I guess the 30-30 on elk is not much different than me using a M 70 Bull Rifle in 300 Win Mag for competitive rock chuck shooting at a half mile in the southern Montana foothills. Kinda crazy, but both have been know to be effective. $$$ smile

Wayne
Posted by: Dave93

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/07/09 08:05 PM

Oldman, thanks for the pictures and info. Maybe you could start a fresh thread on this. In my opinion it is VERY interesting.
Posted by: btb375

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 04:07 AM

Oldman, thanks for responding.
I have, for a long time, been considering a 375 whelen, think it would be a cool rifle.
I have this FN mauser action loitering about---
Posted by: taylorce1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 06:36 AM

Originally Posted By: SUPERDIESEL1
Try this. Walk into a good gunsmithing school or a DOW in any state that has elk and tell them that your planning a hunt on them with your 30-30. Post back what your told.


They will tell you the same thing that is being said here, it is an adequate chambering but there are better choices. The CO DOW will not say anything as it is totally legal and meets the minimum ft-lb, bore, and grain requirements to hunt elk in this State. Remember all CO DOW requires to hunt elk is a 6mm or larger bullet 85 grains or heavier, and it must produce 1000 ft-lbs at 100 yards.

Really all it boils down to is the OP the type of hunter who can hunt responsibly and use the .30-30 within its limitations. Common sense must prevail when using a .30-30 for elk and you must know when to pass up a shot. I look at it this way; hunting isn't about getting an animal to me. It is about spending time outside, learning about the animal I'm hunting, and spending time with family and friends. If I measured the success of a hunt by the size of antlers and meat in the freezer I'd probably give up the sport
Posted by: ChipM

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 07:46 AM

Look if you have one, limit your range and can live with results good or bad, then its your decision. Wayne Van Zwoll recently wrote an article about losing an elk shot with a 30-30 and was chastised for it but again, he has to live with it, to me I have recurring nightmares when I miss an animal let alone if I shot one and didn't recover. Thankfully this hasn't happened.

More interesting then this arguement is Oldman's .400 whelan. I would love to see a seperate thread and more info
Posted by: SUPERDIESEL1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 07:56 AM

Yea they will say it's legal at the DOW but they will also tell you, they wish you wouldn't (already checked). Over at the Colorado school of trades you will probably get advised on the frailness of that choice and get recommended to a more decent choice (I know alot of the folks over there). I to am addicted to the great outdoors and love every minute I get to spend out there. However I also have respect for the great Wapiti and use a responsible and justifiable caliber for a humane dispatch when the event arises. This is common sense. I built a .25-300Wby for my daughter that she shoots (not in her teens yet), and will be using it on deer in a few years. She wants to get use to my .300Wby (braked) so shes ready for the elk when she gets old enough and the opportunity graces her. However, if she doesn't shoot it accurate she will be going back down. I have confidence though. I just don't get why a .444 Marlin or .45-70 isn't more desirable for some of the lever folks (good deer medicine too). But then again, that's my though process.

It is what it is.
Posted by: Klikitarik

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 08:14 AM

I'm sure DOW might wish that a lot of "average Joes" didn't shoot at elk with anything. I'm thinking there is a decent percentage of the hunting population which would be better off hunting with 30-30s at 100 yards or less instead of the 7 and 300 mags they're more likely to be carrying and using at 300 yards, give or take. The 30-30 and other "lesser" cartridges didn't lose power or anything else other than market share with the advent of magnums. Their potential has nothing to do with democratic ideas either.
Posted by: heavywalker

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 08:36 AM

A 30-30 on elk is good as long as it is used within its limitations. The problem is, a beginning hunter resisting temptation to push pass the limits of the rifle when there is an elk at 300yds.
Posted by: idnative1948

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 08:44 AM

Mine is never used unless I am going to be in heavy timber and brush. Just not worth it to me to take a shot that is marginal with it.
Posted by: taylorce1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 09:13 AM

I really doubt most DOW employees would even have a clue as to what calibers are adequate for elk, and I imagine there are a few Officers that share your opinion however. As far as Gunsmiths go of course they are going to try to talk you into something different, when was the last time one built a custom .30-30 elk rifle? Sure they might repair them from time to time, but they are not their bread and butter. So I'm pretty sure that the .30-30 in a lever is little more than a sidenote in your schools.

The fact is the .30-30 still works as well as it did over 100 years ago when it was the most powerful smokeless cartridge available to the general population. The Marlin and Winchester lever guns in .30-30 have earned a well deserved reputation as hunting rifles. When someone can scientificly prove that a .30-30 is incapable of taking an elk when used within reason then maybe I'll agree with you.

Why aren't the .444 and .45-70 more popular. The numbers of people owing a lever in either caliber can't compare to the number of .30-30 Winchester and Marlin owneres. Are they more powerful cartridges? Sure, but it is hard to argue effectiveness when dead is dead.

So what are your thoughts on Archery or ML hunting elk if the .30-30 is such a terrible cartridge choice? Is it unethical to hunt either of these more primitave methods when there are better choices in rifles and handguns? Everyone is different in their methods of hunting, and hunting with a .30-30 doesn't show any less respect for an elk when used within its limitations, than using a .30-06 at 400. I'd rather hunt with a guy trying to get within range of a .30-30 than any of the long range hunters as seen on "Best of the West."
Posted by: guyandarifle

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 09:43 AM

Originally Posted By: taylorce1
I really doubt most DOW employees would even have a clue as to what calibers are adequate for elk, and I imagine there are a few Officers that share your opinion however. As far as Gunsmiths go of course they are going to try to talk you into something different, when was the last time one built a custom .30-30 elk rifle? Sure they might repair them from time to time, but they are not their bread and butter. So I'm pretty sure that the .30-30 in a lever is little more than a sidenote in your schools.

The fact is the .30-30 still works as well as it did over 100 years ago when it was the most powerful smokeless cartridge available to the general population. The Marlin and Winchester lever guns in .30-30 have earned a well deserved reputation as hunting rifles. When someone can scientificly prove that a .30-30 is incapable of taking an elk when used within reason then maybe I'll agree with you.

Why aren't the .444 and .45-70 more popular. The numbers of people owing a lever in either caliber can't compare to the number of .30-30 Winchester and Marlin owneres. Are they more powerful cartridges? Sure, but it is hard to argue effectiveness when dead is dead.

So what are your thoughts on Archery or ML hunting elk if the .30-30 is such a terrible cartridge choice? Is it unethical to hunt either of these more primitave methods when there are better choices in rifles and handguns? Everyone is different in their methods of hunting, and hunting with a .30-30 doesn't show any less respect for an elk when used within its limitations, than using a .30-06 at 400. I'd rather hunt with a guy trying to get within range of a .30-30 than any of the long range hunters as seen on "Best of the West."


I think the part in bold is the angle most of us (including myself) are pushing here.
Posted by: SUPERDIESEL1

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 11:19 AM

I do shoot archery an MLs. Archery Cuts which is much different. MLs just put big ol holes in your quarry, but arn't always the most effective either (Love em both though and are alot of fun). Were talking hydrostatic shock values here. The .47-70 was more powerful when converted to smokeless back in the late 1800s. I have no problem with it being used for deer as it was back then. I've just seen to many failure from more powerful calibers with well placed shots to think about going with something as frail. No scientific data, just in the field experience and witnessing.

As far as hand guns go, there pretty wimpy too. I use to carry a .454 Casull but have now moved to my .500SD which is a BFR that use to be a .500 S&W. I re-chambered it deeper to shoot a case that is exactly the same as the .500 S&W but is 5/8" longer and propels a 700gr lead at 1450fps (500gr jacketed really move out). It's between a .45-70 and .458Win in power out of a 10" hand gun which is way more than what most want to deal with but a better performer for me on bigger critters. It will also still shoot the (littler) .500 S&W still very well. So as you see, I'm a big gun kind of guy. Some think I'm nuts, but I don't have any critters running off (not since I was younger and had a steep learning curve anyway) writhing in mortal pain thank god. But it still may take place again one day with misfortune. But I try to do what I can to keep that from happening. This is just my opinions and experiences.

It is what it is.
Posted by: Jeff_O

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 12:00 PM

I have a .325 WSM lever gun. 22" barrel, accurate as hell, nice and light, handles good (not as good as a 30-30, granted), and I shoot it effectively out to 450 yards...

Now THERE'S an elk lever gun! smile

Elk come hard for most folks. A once every few hunts proposition, at best. A guy willing to accept the limitations of a 30-30 on elk, hey, have at it and more power to ya!

It's a mystery to me WHY said hunter would accept those limitations, though. With my 45/70 I accepted the range limitation, but at least I knew I was gonna thwack one but good...
Posted by: Rogue

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 12:03 PM

I haven't seen any dramic failures with well placed shots. I have tracked, finished off, gutted, boned out and skinned many animals wounded by others. I don't recall a single instance of a well placed shot not working. I don't have accurate records but would guess I been in on more than a hundered deer, elk and bear kills combined. Busting shoulders or shooting stem to stern on a big bull or bear is a different story. But just punching through the lungs almost anything will work.
Posted by: Klikitarik

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 12:21 PM

I've killed three Alaskan moose with 45-70, one with 30-30. The 30-30 was the third longest shot out of the four. It was also the quickest one down. Shot placement matters more than anything else. Know your own limitations, as well as those of the gun and your ammo. That's the bottom line.
Posted by: ChipM

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 01:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Klikitarik
I've killed three Alaskan moose with 45-70, one with 30-30. The 30-30 was the third longest shot out of the four. It was also the quickest one down. Shot placement matters more than anything else. Know your own limitations, as well as those of the gun and your ammo. That's the bottom line.


I think thats the jest of this whole thread.

And being a fan of leverguns I would use a 444 or 45-70 instead. Problem being you are in a different realm of recoil. I have 2 30-30's in the gun cabinet a 336 given to me at age 12 and an 1893 which is 95 yrs old. I love both on deer and maybe if I lived in Elk Country would use one within its limits but again you have to know its limits and if the elk was 300 yds away know I would be able to get back the next day.
Posted by: Klikitarik

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 03:43 PM

And it's a whole different thing to consider an elk hunt hunt out in Montana if you're from New England than it is to make the same hunt when Montana is your own "backyard", and you know the area like the back of your hand. But, of course, there are some few folks who have the discipline to to wait, and the hunt and tools of the hunt matter as much or more than actually "scoring".
Posted by: ChipM

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 04:21 PM

You are absolutley correct. Someday I hope to get there and do it, the gun I would bring, my 338-06 and shoot it as much as I could before arrival.
Posted by: oldman1942

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 06:52 PM

Think we might all move along. I recall reading some stats from WY on popular Elk cartridges around 1900 and the 32-20 was way up on the list. Of course those guys were hunters and probably had enough free time to pick a "double lung side shot" rather like an archer today.
The dude from back east with 5 days to kill an Elk is probably better off with a 300 yard cartridge that he can shoot well.
Those of us living among them, sucking off the Social Security teat and can hunt every day the whole season could probably fill the freezer with a 30-30.
I use the "bucket mouth" Barnes TSX in my 303 Savage (a 30-30 plus a hair) and I'm sure it would kill an Elk under 150 with a broadside heart/lung shot.
"dance with who you came with"

Posted by: cowkiller

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 11:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Flinch
Nice back peddling there "cow killer". And you make fun of my handle. Leave old Bessy alone, will ya!! It appears my numbers are right on the money based on other posters experience with the .30-30. Maybe you should stick with tipping cows and beers and leave the hunting to hunters. Take the pink pill, then the blue pill, pink then blue. You got it? Flinch


Not backpedaling at all. You were making a statement about the "dink behind the trigger" and it struck me funny your handle is "flinch". Then you get all worked up and "bowing in your presence" thats just kind of weird.
I repeatedly stated that a 30-30 will kill elk, Just not a choice I would recommend from my experience. Apperently Not as much experience as much as you claim to have but still MY experience. You just kept coming so.... the "take your meds" comment.

I really do not feel the need to take any crap from you.
I don't care if you shot 100 Elk and really do not care if you shoot yourself.
I still would not say a 30-30 is a good Elk rifle. Not past 150 yards and for me not at all.
When I was an active US Marine my Job as an 0844 was Fire Direction Controlman. I calculated Ballistic Data for towed 105mm howitzers in the field. Effective range was 7 miles. We used a map and pins instead of a reticle. No computer assistance (FADAC)in those days. All data but we did have calculator's
So the numbers may interest me a bit more than they do you. If fact I know they do. That tends to bother some people but so do a lot of things. The numbers do work(bigger numbers are better by the way) and they do have value whether or not you are smart enough to see it.
You see It really has nothing at all to do with an armchair.
As far as Your "leaving Hunting to hunters" comment goes, it deserves no response. Despite your obvious arrogance you show a great deal of hostile ignorance as well.
I also think you are an insecure weird little man that is not capable of having a discussion if someone's experience may differ from your own.
It must be a small world you got goin there. Worms and all.
Posted by: Jeff_O

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/08/09 11:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Klikitarik
I've killed three Alaskan moose with 45-70, one with 30-30. The 30-30 was the third longest shot out of the four. It was also the quickest one down. Shot placement matters more than anything else. Know your own limitations, as well as those of the gun and your ammo. That's the bottom line.


Yeah, but did it thwack 'em... grin...
Posted by: Ranch13

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/09/09 06:58 AM

CowKiller likes numbers. Soooo
1 year ago he wrote this right here on 24hr.
I have shot 8 and most have been close I had a 325 or so downhill a couple of years ago. He did'nt know I was there, he ate good..340 wby he died after spinning 180.
Most shots under 100 and most running or at least moving.
I did pop the antlers off of one a few years back with a close up head shot. 340 at maybe 5 yards. One of the antlers came totally detatched from the skull after skinning.

Couple of days ago he said he's killed 15 over 30 years. Well that means in less than 2 hunting seasons he's killed 7 additional elk if his numbers a few posts back in this thread are correct.
Anybody got that bullshit meter handy?
_________________________
Posted by: heavywalker

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/09/09 02:00 PM

I wouldn't talk like that about people on here. You know that from behind there computer they are 6'10" tall and 260 lean lbs.

smile
Posted by: 444Matt

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/11/09 09:10 AM

I have no actual experience hunting elk, but common sense seems to point that with proper bullet selection, proper range limitation and proper bullet placement the 30-30 is a fine elk killer.

For me it'd be shooting either the barnes 150gr load, the 170gr partition or maybe, maybe the 160gr leverelution gummy tip from hornady- that load has way more energy and FPS, but I'm not convinced the bullet is tough enough yet. I'd limit myself to 150yds, inside of 100 if I could and try to stay away from heavy bone, going for double lung shots.

That doesn't seem like that much of a limitation. I'd say we could all agree most big game animals are killed within 150yds, now getting a double lung shot may be a different story.
Posted by: atkinsonhunting

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/11/09 10:59 AM

Having used it on elk considerably in my youth, and having seen it used by many folks back then, I can testify the 30-30 is an excellent elk round at up to about 200 yards but only if you put the bullet in the heart lung area and only take broadside shots or shots with very little angle to the heart and lungs..

You, however, are limiting yourself to "success" by those specs, so your better off with the larger rifle if you can shoot it...those that do not abide by the specs I list are the ones that wound elk.

Remember, even the 300 RUM is a 30-30 at some point out there..Some folks that claim the 30-30 is not a worthy elk rifle seem to thing their 300 RUM and its counterparts are excellent elk rifles at 500 to a 1000 yards, where is the thinking in this? at those ranges they are shooting a 30-30 or maybe less.

I think I would personally limit myself to a 7x57 or larger for elk, and I prefer my .338 these days. It really hammers them down.
Posted by: 378Canuck

Re: 30-30 for elk hunt - 10/11/09 11:11 AM

On one elk we skinned out and had butchered. The butcher gave me 2x 30-30 slugs that were in the chest area of a bull elk. They had healed over but the butcher found them.

It easy to distinguish because they are flat nose bullets.

Years later we found one in the rump of an elk and it had also healed over. Not saying 30-30m is a bad choice but like Ray's comment goes.I agree.