I hunt in Utah where shots come any where from 50 feet in the cedars to 400 yards across a canyon. At what distance would you zero your .270? .30-06? Or would you zero your rifle at maximum point blank range?

Thank you for the advice, TJ

Just zero 3 inches high at 100 yards and call it good. That will make you pretty good from 0-300 yards. Just hold over if its past that. Of course that is assuming you know your rifle and have someway to accurately determine range

I typically zero at 200 or just beyond, checking both sides of zero distance to make sure I've got what I want with the load. You often learn things, many times good, when shooting farther than 100. Of course it also helps weed out nasty surprises.

Set it at 3" high for 100, run the equation for distant holdovers and verify at the range. Record in brain and on a cheat sheet. Drink coffee.

I prefer 2 inches high at 100 for all of my rifles.

i use 3" high at 100 yards for both my 270 win and 30-06. works for me.

how about 200yds

Regardless of the load, I like mine zeroed so they don't rise more than 3 inches as they get out there. Even a little less is OK.
I used to do three inches at 100 and call it good. But I've found with some loads/rifles, that put me 5 inches up at the mid to 2/3's point. That's too much when combined with the usual field position group sizes. Particularly when I need to shoot through a hole in screening vegetation or take a fast shot at a coyote.
The longer shots, even with the reduced zero range, haven't been a problem. Especially with the simple duplex reticles and knowing just how wide the opening is.
The only thing I'd add is that, for me, if he looks like 300 yds., I really need to range him at least with a reticle like the duplex. With the standard Leupold and a 9 inch spacing, a 300 yd., 4 yr. old buck fits into all of half of it's thin opening and half of the other half. If he fills the thing, he's at 200 yds. If he fills only one half of it, he's about 400 yds. Really not hard to see and to make. But I need to verify just what the range is. For some reason, in spite of lots of practice in the field, I have days where I'm surprised as to how far off my eye ball estimates are. E

200 yds.

I would zero it for maximum point blank range. That is 3.0" to 3.5" high at 100 yards for most of the rifles I shoot regularly. Then I check them at known ranges and sometimes adjust.

I only have regular access to 100, 200 and 300 yard ranges.

3 inches high at 100 yards has served me well over the years hunting Wyoming. Actually the area I hunt borders Utah so that should do you about right.

Thanks for the advice! Where do I get the balistic info on how high the flight path will be before and after 100 yards? I guess I'm asking, how do you calculate MPBR? I don't have a chronograph nor do I load myself. I'm taking my boys out on a late cow hunt in the East Heber area. We are going to shoot Remington Core-lokts. 150 grain for the .270s. 180 for the .30-06.

TY again, TJ

TJ

Here is where you can put your information in to get the ballistics on the Remington Core-Lokt. You can go back to the ballistics page and get more information if you would like.

Hope you and your boys are able to get on the elk.

270&30-06 Ballistics

Three inches high at 100 yards. With any kind of standard load with either a 270 or 30-06, I don't think you would be five inches above the line of sight. For mule deer and elk 3" should be fine.

I appreciate the logic behind the use of a maximum point blank range but I'm most comfortable sighting most of my hunting rifles (including my 270) for a 200 yard zero. I think consistency is a very important factor - in other words, pick a system and stay with it so you don't have to try to remember what you've done when you're faced with a hunting situation that requires a split second decision.

ttpoz

Amen. Change for the sake of change has fouled up more shooting than anything else.

If you can, zero at 300 yards. A 300 yard zero eliminates more guesswork imo out to 400-450 yards. Estimating a hold under shot is easier than a hold over shot. A 300 yard zero with a good range finder which has a inclinometer for angled shots and you`ll be in good shape.

Baylian,

Here's some nice web based ballistic apps to help you out, JBM Ballistics.

For me, it depends on the actual caliber. For a flat shooting magnum, I like a 250 yard zero. For a standard caliber, I like a 200 yard zero. That usually means a standard caliber is about 2 1/4" high at 100 yards and a mag is 2 1/2" high at 100. I also don't like bullet to go much more than 2.5" above the line of sight.

Azar...I agree. I think 3 to 3 1/2" high at 100 is a bit much. If a guy gets a shot at an animal at say 175 to 200 in poor light with not enough time to range it, it is easy to hold a bit high on it, thus hitting it high or shooting over it.(poor light giving the appearence of farther away) Most misses I've seen on easy within range shots miss high.

Just my 2 cents.....

2 inches high at 100 yds will get you a dead elk as farout as you've probably got any business shooting.Hold dead center out to 300, and lay the horizontal cross hairs on their back further out. If the shot falls low its to damn far anyways.
rangefinders tend to take alot of the nonsense out of how far to shoot.

I thought about this quite a bit while hunting in CO for the second rifle season. Most would agree that 90% of shots on game are at 100yds or less in the US. Elk often are in the thick stuff ie. close ranges.

How many of you would be satisfied with a 3-4 MOA hunting rifle. Not me, but if you are sighted in 3-4 inches high, you are intentionally going to have an bullet impact 3-4 inches from your point of aim for 90% of your shots!

I leave all my guns sighted at 100. Most traditional center fire cartridges will only drop 3-5 inches out to 200 when zeroed at 100. For longer shots you have more time to adjust (click, holdover, ect.) For the close and quick shots I want my bullet going right where I aim. I also like to take a headshot when possible on relaxed close game (deer). A 100 yd zero makes this easy�..that could start a whole new unintentional debate.

Just my thoughts on the subject, but I am not an �expert�.

2" high at 100, every gun I own. that way there's no question on 90% of my shots.

Baylian,
Try this web page. It's really easy to get the figures for where to sight your gun in for a +/- 3" maximum point-blank range - for any bullet in any caliber:

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx

For most 270 and 30-06 loads it'll be somewhere just shy of 3" high at 100.

Reading the tables is fine,but I never bother myself....the only way to accurately answer your question is to actually shoot the distances involved.There really is no substitute,because you don't know the actual speed of the loads,and frequently factory ammo and handloads,too,come in slower than expected.

For me, a 270 zeroed 3" high at 100 yards impacts about 3.5" high at 200,and about 3-4 low at 300;at 400 yards the load is down about 12-14".

I use the same sight settings in the brush and don't worry or think much about it for shots under 100 yards;I simply hold for cenetr of the chest and kill them.You are only about 1" high at 50 yards;not one guy in 100 can hold that tight,off hand,on the real world of heavy cover hunting.

I agree-shoot! The nice thing about getting this trajectory in your head is there are whole hat full of cartridges that are very similar.

I zero every rifle I have 2'' high at 100. That lays the zero at about 225 with a standard and 235 with a magnum. 4'' low at 300 with the standard and 3'' low with the magnum. They all get zeroed the same so when the time comes I don't have to remember which rifle is zeroed for what.

I sight mine in for 1 inch high at 100 yrds. That way I never get to far above the line of sight. I am more likely to hold up and shoot over so to high is not good for me. Dean

Here's a handy, web-based ballistics calculator that I've frequently used.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

I pretty much zero everything in open country at 3.5 inches high at 100 yds...

at woods ranges, usually about 2 inches high at 100 yds..

regardless of caliber...

200 yards--but then all of my regular hunting rifles/cartridges have similar trajectories, so I don't have to do math in the heat of the battle.

7 inches low at 300, 20 inches low at 400--that's all I gotta' remember.......

Of course, I've killed a lot more elk at less than a 100 yards than at 300+ yards.


Casey

I hunt with a 270 and use to do the 3" high at 100 but stopped that. I found that I didn't really sight it in for an exact spot but at around 3" high so really I didn't know where I was hitting except high at 100. I now sight in for 200 and know exactly where it will hit at 300, 400, and 500.

It workes for me because out to where I don't have to worry about it I don't think of it as a long shot. When I start getting out there I know I need to change my aiming point. I also find that if I sight in for 300 I forget to change my aim point at close distances in the heat of the moment.

That's what works for me.

Me too, whether it is my .223, 243, 308, 270, or the '06. 99% of all my game shots with centerfire, are with those calibers. All trajectories are identical enough for what I shoot em at, under field conditions. Rock Chucks to elk, and 90% of those shots will be 200 yards or less.

I find 3" high at 100 way too high....I shoot mine dead zero at 200 (whatever that puts me at 100) and depending on cartridge I am usually below 2" high at 100 yards.

Yep, then verify drop at 300 and 400.

I also pay attention to point of impact at 25, 50, and 75 yards.

BMT

My 270 & 30-06 are zero'd at 200 Yards. As everyone has said that is 1.5 & 2" at 100 yards. Dead on at 200, and 6.5 -7.3 low at 300 yards respectivly. That covers 99% of most peoples hunting, and 100% of mine.

Certainly seems to be a couple schools of thought and I used to always sight in for dead on at 200 yards. However I found it easier to aim 3 inches low at a 100yards that to guess at what 7 inches low is at 300 yards. There are no wrong answers, but this is why I chose my method.

I have shot deer from powder burn distance to 450 (ranged) out in the soybean and peanut fields of North Carolina. I have a .300 Win and a .300 WSM both of which have range cards taped on the inside of their stocks. I have them zeroed for 100 yards. I have the hold over out to 500 yds and the elevation clicks in case I have lots of time and want to dial them in. I have my scope turrets set to zero and just spin them to where they need to be. I don't use the windage turret. I do Kentucky windage for that. In 18 years, I never missed or wounded a deer with either rifle. I wounded 2 with a Remington Mountain Rifle in .270 which deservedly now rests at my friends place. I haven't been gun hunting since 2001 and miss it a lot, especially when I'm down the range and watching people shoot before going off to camp.

Two and a half inches high at 100 and hold on hair out to 300. Thats my limit.

With 130 Nosler Partitions, I sight in 2 inches high at 100 yards. The bullet again crosses the scope crosshairs at over 200 yards and is 6 inches low at 300 yards.

Thank you for all of the good advice!

TJ

Jack O'Connor invented the "rule of three". Sight in any modern rifle 3" high @100 and your big game point blank range will be 225-350.
Worked for Jack, works for me BUT you must resist the temptation to "add a bit of elevation" as almost all misses are overshoots around here.

Find what works for you. What I've discovered over the years is that when closer shots present themselves <100 yards or so I want it right on the crosshairs. I used to site in 2-3" high at 100 but discovered the hard way that when an opportunity appears at closer ranges it normally requires a VERY quick shot and with everything else to consider (safe back drop, is it the animal I want, any lead if running, etc) the last thing I wanna do is to have to figure in bullet RISE too. I've either shot high or worse - spine shot taking out precious back strap!

With that said, a couple years ago had a confirmed lasered shot @ 495, one shot into the bolier, three four steps and down, no followup needed. My take (and experience) is that IF I'm taking a longer shot at 200-300+ I'm giving myself plenty of time to get prone and VERY steady, allowing extra time to take everything else into consideration such as wind, angle, bullet drop, allowing time for animal to stop broadside, etc, and adding a couple more inches by being sighted in at 100 is NOT a big deal.

I now stick with zero @ 100 for everything, all the time - seems to work better for me and have my stepson (newer hunter) learning to do the same. We practice often, out at least once or twice a month always shooting at 50, 100, 200+, and just yesterday we set up targets at 500!! Regardless of where you sight in, it's important to practice often and at different distances and learn exactly what to expect at each, and memorize your ballistics based on the range you decide to sight in at.

It frustrates me to no end getting to elk camp and hearing all the guys who go out once a year a few weeks before opening day firing a few shots using a sled from the bench at a hundred yards and calling it good because they dont want to practice any more with thier super-duper hard kicking magnums!

ditto on the magnums and also high powered scopes. a'int an Elk that ever lived that can't be killed with a 30-06 and a 4 X scope IF:

you are a hunter, not a wannabe sniper

you have shot the rifle from real world field positions several 100 times at targets at unknown distances.

200 yards.

It's esy to remember the trajectories......



Casey

I use to do all that sight in at so many inches over at 100.In find 99% of the elk I shoot are less than 100yds.For years I have set my .06 at zero at 100 yds. This year,one elk was at about 60 yds,the other was at about 80. Two deer were at about 70 yds.
Of course if you are always in the open country ,things would be different.
I was with a guy who was shooting a 300mag, miss a ram of a life time because he was sighted in at 3" high, shooting uphill, at about 100 yds. He blew one over right it's back and subsequently shot a smaller ram, and almost missed it the same way. Just barely creased it spine.

I'd much rather have my rifle shoot exactly where I am aimimng when I know that realm is 95% of my shots and then compensate for the other 5% than pick a random number and never have the rifle shoot exactly where I aim at any distance

I used to do the 2" high thing, but changed to 3" high for just about everything except for slow moving lever action rounds. The reason I did this is because I found I was actually shooting over with the 2" high sight in. This was pre-rangefinder and I wasn't able to judge exactly 200 or 300 yards and where I hunt it is very open. I had a terrible time with antelope. I started reading Bob Milek and liked the idea of being able to hold on the animal out to 300 or more yards. I started hitting more often than not and I don't bother holding low if the animal is 100 yards or closer. Their lungs are pretty big. (I usually hold for center of lung.) This year my antelope was a lasered 360 yards and I was shooting my 270 with 130 SGK. Held a little high on the shoulder and took off the top of the heart.

Schmidt & Bender has the solution...... AND it's FFP so it works at all "Xs" exactly the same.

I've been doing it like this for so many years I'd be a nervous wreck if handed a rifle that was zeroed much differently.I use the same rifles back here in the east,with the same sight settings,as I do in the west,have shot a lot of deer under 100 yards,and have had no problem holding on the chest and just killing them.

With hyper-velocity rounds and some of todays really slippery bullets(light weight X at very high vel,like 120-7mm at 3500,and 130 at 3600;and some Swift S'co's come to mind)3" high at 100 yards can give mid range that is a bit too high IME;so I hedge things a bit and 2"-2.5" up at 100 generally gives a 300 yard zero with lower mid range.This works ,too.

I should point out I lasered the distance after the shot.

Sight in dead on at 200 and memorize where your load is at 100, 300 and 400. Dead on at 200, my 300 win mag is 3" high at 100, 7" low at 300 and 20" low at 400. Got it committed to memory. It's all small potatoes really if you are shooting at an elks chest.

If you know the approximate range of your target, you'll know exactly where to hold.

First one hit him at 425 yards, second round at 438 yards.

It is easier to adjust 2 or 3 inches low for a 100 yard shot than it is to hold over 13 to 26 inches for a 300 or 400 yard shot.

Set your scope 2 inches high and you don't have to adjust anything from 0 to 225 or 250 yards, depending on the loads.

After 250 yards, you are going to be adjusting, anyway.
Learn your rifle.

A second solution is to have 2 loads or two sight settings.

I have a .270 with an aperture sight and a scope in a quick detachable mount. The iron sight is zeroed at 150 yards.
The scope is zeroed at 250 yards with 130-gr loads.
The rifle shoots 140-gr Hornady loads higher, so the zero is 325 yards.

For years now I have used a MPBR zero calculated for a maximum 3� rise for all my rifles. My philosophy is to be able keep shots in a pie plate sized group. Too much rise makes this more difficult. As E says, combine a 3� rise with shooter error and it�s easy to miss.

Rather than try to expand maximum range by increasing maximum bullet rise, I prefer to use a laser with chrono�d loads, MPBR�s for a 6� diameter target, and a drop compensating reticle (be it mil-dots or something else, my favorite being the Burris Ballistic Plex reticle). Coupled, of course, with verification at the range...

Or just get a BDC reticle like the Leupold Boone and Crokett and you will be good to go.

Well...geeez,someone finally said it........this just seems to make a whole bunch of sense to me.....while many of us worry about shots in brush at close range,what we fail to remember sometimes is that a 3" high zero at 100 with a 30/06 works out to about 1"-1.5" high at 50 yards;it also assumes that the shooter can hold MOA from off hand under hurried conditions while shooting at a buck that has a chest 18" deep, shoulders, vitals, etc.We do well to hit these at all under stress.

All of a sudden, that 3" midrise dissapears....you can prove it to yourself by setting up a 10" black bull at 100;shoot it offhand for awhile with a 3" high zero;the site setting will be buried in your group size...not many are such finely tuned machines that we can group MOA off hand at 100 yards....or 50 for that matter....

As Lee points out, I would rather "worry" about a 2-3" correction at 100 than a 7-10" correction at 300,or much more at 400.

Quoting Bob Jourdan in Precision Shooting,March 1999...."Ballistic Coeeficients for Big Game Hunters"...who in turn quoted O'Connor,who said....."only a sucker would sight in a 30/06 for 200 yards for hunting...."

Hey I didn't say it...O'Connor did....back off!

The Burris BP reticle does the same thing. Although I don't zero it the way they suggest, at 200 or 300 yards, the extra hash marks are plenty useful. In my .300WM with the 180g MRX, the second hash is 500, the third 600 - both right on the money.

Bob, right on.But my argument is why not sight in for dead on at 100 yds if almost all kills are at 100yds or less.
In my tally of about 38 elk, I can only remember five being in excess of that. One was with a .308, two with a 7mag and two with an .06. BTW. The two with the .06 were two cows at 347 yards( lasered the next year)that were standing next to each other and I had two tags. Three shots, from the .06. The load was a 220 gr Sierra RN,sighted in for 100 yards dead on.The first shot was low, I corrected and then dropped the two elk.
For me, it is far easier to compensate for those very few instances than to worry about high/low scenarios. Most of my shots are threading a bullet through blow downs or aspen thickets.

Contrary to this,my pronghorn rifle, a 6.5 Swded is sighted in at dead on at 200 as this is where most of my goats are shot.Usually at about 150 yds.

I also have a load of 180 gr Sierras that shoot dead on at 200 when my .06 is sighted in at 100 with the 220's. I shot that bull this year with that load at about 60 yds and it went a little high,still putting the bull down immediately. It could have gone wrong as I had usually loaded with the 220's and did a neck/spine shot. Guess 2" didn't make much difference at that distance though.

My theory is sight in for the distance on which your most likely shots will occur and compensate for all others. Long shots seem to all have the common theme of having a a lot more time to correct for distance than short snap shooting.

I've hunted and shot metallic silouettes with a .270 for many years. I sight them dead on at 200 yards. I tried the "2" or 3" high at 100 yards" thing and found it wasn't dead on at any useful range. I sight at 200 yards and shoot at ranges from 25 to 600 yards, 600 meters in sillouettes, and learn the trajectory. I work up handloads so they have as near as possible the same trajectory.
Sure saves me a lot of hassle when I shoot.
I've found that a laser rangefinder sure stops a lot of "I shot it at 400 yards" stories. We tend to over- or under-estimate ranges wildly with many variables like weather, light, air pressure, etc. thrown in the mix.

Know your game, hunting terrain, and likely range.

Sight the rifle in for a round number of that range: 100, 150, 200, 250

Practice enough to know how your rifle and loads shoot at any all all ranges where you may get a shot, using the zero range you have chosen.

Know your limit for hitting the vital zone, whether it is 3 inches, or 8 inches, from a field shooting position, and with a breeze.

Be able to estimate the range in all sorts of light.
Mark landmarks in advance when you are able, use a rangefinder when you can.

If you have target knobs on your aperture sight or scope, learn how to use them so you can avoid Kentucky holdover and windage.

saddlesore: I understand the way you do it and why...you know your country, the game,and where you're going,what you're doing...

me,OTOH,I have to travel for the best hunting.I'm in Central Wyoming this week,Maine or NH the next,Alberta or Manitoba looking over big swamps or pea fields,or down in some thicket one minute,and on a power line the next. I never know what a season will hold...I need to be ready for a lot of different stuff.....so I need a flexble, fast sighting system that serves in a lot of different places,under different conditions.

besides, I spend so much time and energy shooting year round on the range back here, that I'm accustomed to that way of doing things

If sighting in at some arbitrary fixed range works for you, go for it. I find it more useful to sight in for a maximum rise of 3�, so my zero points are rarely at some increment of 50 or 100.

Sighting in for the range where you normally shoot 90% of your game is not arbitrary.

Setting sights for a maximum 3 inch rise is a good method for
having a flat shooting rifle out to X yards. After that, you are back to holding over. I do like the Burris BP reticle, which have on 2 rifles, with zero set at 200 yards.

There are several different right ways for different people and hunting situations. And there are several wrong ways that people read about in a magazine article or an Internet forum, that will not work for them at all.

A sight setting for a .30-30 and one load is easy.

A single sight setting that will work for a .270 or .30-06 at 25 to 400 yards with a wide range of bullet is a bit more complicated.

If you intend to take shots at 300 yards or more, but might have one at 100 yards or less, the surest thing to do is mount a fixed 6x or 10x power scope with target knobs, sight it in for 200 yards, and learn how many clicks to move it to hit dead on at any range.

200 yards

Sighting in at 100, 150, 200, etc. is very arbitrary. I�ve never shot any game at an increment of 50 or 100 yards. Such sight-ins work very well at the range, though, when shooting at the chosen zero range. No problem though � whatever range one sights in at is equally arbitrary.



No, it really isn�t that tough if one works up the loads � my premium hunting loads all have at least one and often two practice loads that use inexpensive bullets and shoot to the same point of impact (or close enough). No matter, though � when I go hunting I only take one load per rifle and the rifle is MPBR zeroed for a 6� diameter target for that load.



Once again I disagree. This year I hunted with my .300WM and a .30-06. Both were MPBR zeroed for a max rise of 3� (6� diameter target). Both sat on 4.5x although the scopes were a Burris 3-9x BP (.300WM) and a Burris 4.5-15x BP (.30-06). I have no use for a fixed 10x for close range work (0-200 yards).

Nor, with a max bullet rise of 3� and a Ballistic Plex reticle, do I have any need to twiddle and fiddle with knobs. I know where the first crossover point and point of maximum rise are for every hunting load I use, plus I carry a small printout of the ballistics when hunting (mostly for windage at longer ranges). The last trip to the range I checked the .300 at 100 yards and 300 yards, then got first round hits at 500 and 600 yards. The .30-06 also gave me a first round hit at 500 and I didn�t try 600. No twiddle and fiddle, just Burris Ballistic Plex reticles and knowing the loads. Fast and easy.

The Ballistic Plex Reticle is calibrated for 9x on the 3-9x scope.

What ranges did the hash marks end up as zero ranges for you at 4.5x?

Why would you set the scope on 4.5x, especially if you are going to shoot at game at extreme ranges like 450 yards?

I have no use for a 10x scope inside 200 yards, either, (open sight range). That is why I suggested a 6x set at 200 yards.

But I said, if you plan to shoot at 300 or 400 yards (I have no need, but the thread is about 300 to 400 yards), that 10x is better. 10x works out well with Mil-Dot and target knobs incremented in radians to match. That is the reason US military snipers use that.

Turning the knobs on a 10x tactical scope is just as fast as using the BP reticle, faster than if you have to stop and use note cards or a separate range finder.

As several other posters have noted, it is easy to set up your .270 or .30-06 so you don't have to do anything more than hold on hair and shoot out to 300 yards, which covers 95% of ethical shots, anyway. Use a ballistic reticle or knobs for the other 5%.

CH, Actually you are saying the same thing,just in a differnt way. Using your MPBR, at some distance you are dead on,you just don't know what that distance is and you are satisfied that as long as your bullet strikes anywhere in the pie plate range you are satisfied.

You could do the same thing by knowing that particular distance that it is dead on, sight the rifle in and then know it will be within the pie plate at any range.As long as you can put all the bullets in a single hole, this is fine,but if one has a rifle that will only do 1 minute of accuracy,and the average hunting rifle will most likley do 1&1/2 minutes, things get dicey, as that 3" can float to 4-4.5 inches. Fine on paper, but goes out the window on the range or while hunting. However, from many of you past post, I understand that most if not all of your firearms do better than theaverage .

At some point in time,you have to select what range you shoot at to zero your rifle/ load combo to achieve MPBR.

I do the same thing,only I select 100yds and I am satisfied that my rifle/load combo will put the bullet in the kill zone from say 25 yds to 150 yds, only in a area smaller than a pie plate. Then I check my setting at 50, 100, 200, and 300 yds at the range. I tape those figures to my stock for reference should I ever need them, but so far I can't remember that I did. It's not arbitrary at all,just what is suitable for conditions that each person hunts in.

Not being argumentive here,just saying that maybe what we all are saying is the samething,only in differnt words.Obviously whatever setting we chose,an elk or deer is not going to run out to that particular distance and stop so one can shoot it.
I think it is more correct to say I sight dead on at 100,200 300yds etc than to say I sight in 3" high at 100 yds or? Which is what the original poster asked anyway.

fter decades of hunting Ive came to the conclusion that the easiest way to set mine up is to put her 2" high at 100 which is about dead on at 200 and at 300 Ill have right at 6" of holdover and to me it just dont get much simpler than that and be as I graduated from the School of KISS {keep it simple stupid}and with this simple theory anything I want to take out to 300 yards will be DRT and I seldom find myself in a position of shooting game over 300 anyway...........

A 270 Win firing a 130 grain bullet 3100 fps with a three inch maximum arc over line of sight will cross plane of sight at somewhere between 250 and 260 yards.

This will be dead on at around 35 yards, 3" high at roughly 145 yards, and 3" low around 305 yards.

At 500 and 600 yards I crank the scope up to 9x.


Because I often and in fact usually shoot at ranges under 200 yards. 4.5x allows a wider field of view for faster target acquisition and I can still hit game out to 400 without a problem. (Clay pigeons on the 400 yard berm are my favorite targets with my bolt guns, regardless of which one I�m using.)


So lasering and twiddling knobs is faster than lasering and using the integral BP hash marks? For me it is not. I�ve done both and use the BP for a reason.

When I get my 6.5-06AI humming I plan to get a scope with knobs � but I also plan to be taking shots (targets) at range to and hopefully past 1000. For those unknown and longer ranges I�ll also have to get a much better laser as mine isn�t much good past 750.



Hmmm, �hold on hair and shoot out to 300 yards�? With my .300 WM and a 180g MRX @ 2950fps MPBR zeroed for a max 3� rise, using a standard reticle with a high �hold on hair� keeps me in an elk�s kill zone out past 450 yards (at only -24�). With my .30-06 and a 168g TTSX @ 2901fps, the range is over 445 yards. Over 410 yards for my .308 Win with the same bullet running 2682fps. And right at 500 yards with my 7mm RM and a 140g TTSX running 3358fps. MPBRs (-3�) are 294 yards for the .300 WM, 290 yards for the .30-06, 268 yards for the .308 Win and 327 yards for the 7mm RM. 300 yards really isn�t very far for any of them.

My concern is not so much with the shots under 200 yards, which are easily handled with a maximum 3� rise, but with the longer shots. Using the Burris BP reticle and MPBR zeros for a max 3� bullet rise, I have no need to twiddle and fiddle at ranges out to 500 yards (.308 Win and .30-06s) or 600 yards (7mm RM and .300 WM). I don�t shoot beyond those ranges so except for prairie poodles and my .22-250, knobs are of little interest for my hunting purposes.

It depends...

My M7 in .358 is a dedicated, purpose-built rifle. It is zeroed at 100 yards. It would SUCK to zero that one 3.5" high at 100- for what I use it for.

My rifles with BDC reticles are zeroed such that the reticle works right. This is a nominal 200-yard zero, but it doesn't always work out exactly that way.

My rifles with turrets are zeroed at 100 yards for simplicity in terms of what my reference hash mark zeroes at. However, it's simple to click them up to a 200-yard zero in the field and I typically do just that.

Many ways to skin this particular cat...

Coyote Hunter, I just have to say it.

This thread is about setting a .270 or .30-06 for elk hunting with 300 to 400 yard shots possible.

Not a 450, 500, or 600 yard shots, not with a 7mm Rem Mag, or .300 Win Mag or anything else.

I don't mind saying that nobody has any business shooting AT big game at 500 and 600 yards, any more than do sky busting AT ducks at 80 yards. Not only would the conditions have to be perfect, the rifle would have to shoot better than 1 MOA, and the shooter would have to have almost a bench rest. Even then, in the 0.5 to .75 seconds it takes the bullet to arrive there, the animal could take one step and you've gut shot him.

500 and 600 yard shots are mostly, I hope, Internet BS.
Because it's a stunt. It's not hunting, it's a Hail Mary shot. It's slob hunting.

Please don't come back with how you are a better shot than I am, or better than everyone else here who doesn't pull such stunts, because that would just be more delusional BS.

Dead center 25 yards. Check it out. Practice.

You are right, at some distance I�m dead on with a MPBR zero for max 3� rise. That range is actually known, as I get it when I run the ballistics to determine how high to zero at 100 and 200 yards.


Again you are correct � my Marlins are reasonably accurate for leverguns but I�m happy if they keep things under 2�. My Remington M700 .30-06 has been something of a disappointment and groups of 1-1/4� are pretty typical. My Rugers tend to shoot much better (under 1� typical, often considerably less). I�ve posted various targets often enough that I won�t do so here. In fairness, I�m running the same loads through the Remington that I do my Ruger � the only load development was enough work-up to determine that doing so was safe. Working up specific loads for the Remington would probably help it.

One reason I stick with a max 3� rise is for the reason you mention � circular error on the part of the rifle and shooter, especially in field conditions. A 3� max rise with a 2� group size can result in over 4� of actual rise. Still, if the goal is to keep things in a 9� target area, life is good and windage is the major bugaboo.



Correct again. After chronoing the loads I calculate MPBR for a 6� diameter target. Those calculations also give me standard ballistic trajectory data, from which I note the +/- factor at ranges from 100 to 600 yards. From there I zero at 100 (+2.5�-2.8� is common) and check at greater.



There is no �right way� to zero in my opinion. Different people have different needs and different equipment can make a difference in what works best for them. I could say my Rem .30-06 is sighted 2.7" high at 100 or dead-on at 247 yards with my 168g TTSX loads. Either way describes the same trajectory.

Every rifle � regardless of how it has been zeroed - has a MPBR. That MPBR varies based on what the maximum acceptable drop is. In fact, MPBR zeroing is just a different way of looking at things.

My preference is to assume that for MPBR purposes, the maximum acceptable rise and maximum acceptable drop should be the same. For purposes of example, let�s use my .30-06/168g TTSX/2901fps load. We will also assume a 1.5� sight height, which is about right. If we assume maximum acceptable rise=maximum acceptable drop:

200yd zero: max rise=1.7� @ 120yds, -1.7� @ 233yds (MPBR)
247yd zero: max rise=3.0� @ 140yds, -3.0� @ 290yds (MPBR)

Some people, however, prefer to sight in at a fixed range and feel they are good to go for a drop of �X� inches, which is usually greater than the maximum rise. If we use my load again and assume a maximum acceptable drop of 3� and a zero at 200 yards:
200yd zero: max rise=1.7� @ 120yds, -3.0� @ 255yds (MPBR)

For zeroing purposes, I use a maximum acceptable rise and drop of 3� on both my leverguns and my bolt guns. I don�t worry about the actual zero range (although I am not unaware of what it is). Instead I am more concerned with the range at which the bullet drop is 3�, which is my MPBR range, as circular error combined with the +/-3� can result in an impact outside the desired target area (the proverbial pie plate). Inside MPBR range I just put the crosshairs on the target and squeeze. Even if I didn�t use MPBR�s where max rise=max drop=3�, I would still be concerned about the -3� range for the reason just cited. The difference is that if max rise equals the max drop I�m willing to put up with, I�ve also maximized the -3� MPBR range.

As shown above, the 247 yard zero, where max rise=max drop=3�, adds 45 yards to the usable range when compared to a 200 yard zero (290yds vs. 255yds). While this doesn�t sound like much, it is equivalent to an area greater than 11 football fields. Considering that I often hunt areas much smaller than a single football helps put that difference in perspective for me. That�s a pretty good gain considering the only �down side� is that the maximum acceptable rise equals the maximum acceptable drop rather than something less. I personally don�t consider that to be a �down side� at all.

As you noted above, if we add in shooter and rifle error, we still need to be concerned about the range at which the bullet is down 3� as anything greater and the bullet can drop out the bottom of the intended target area (the proverbial pie plate again). Assuming a 8-9� diameter target and a 2� circular error for the shooter/rifle/load, a 200 yard zero would result in all hits occurring on the bottom 3/4 of the target while using a zero where max rise=max drop would also allow hits on the upper 1/4 of the target area as well.

Again, individual needs vary. If I was hunting primarily in areas where visibility and rangers were extremely limited I�d probably use a low-mounted scope or peep and zero for a max rise of 1� or less. With my .30-06/168g TTSX load, Since my hunting usually involves sage country at some point in each hunt - and often a lot of it - I go for the longer MPBRs allowed by using max rise=max drop zero calculations.

Like you, I am not trying to be argumentative, just trying to explain why I do what I do.

I zero my mulie and elk rifles at 200 yards dead on target! My 2 big bores are zeroed in at 75 yards center, on target. My long range rifle is zeroed in dead on target at 300 yards......7mm mag using a 160 grn. Accubond bullet.

Full size trajectory chart.

What application is that a screen shot of?

One I wrote myself.
Its an Excel app

me too

That's an excellent solution. Simple and elegant.

Huh? My 3� max rise zeroing give me -3� MPBRs past 300 yards with several rifles and loads. Even with my Ballistic Plex reticles I don�t use the extra hashes until about 400 yards.




BDC reticles give you more than two sight settings. Having two loads and trying to switch between them is way more hassle than I want to deal with.



With the highest BC Hornady 140g bullet (the SST @ .495) at 3000fps, a 325 yard zero will give you a mid-range trajectory of about +5.6� at 180 yards. Thanks, but no thanks.

When I first got out of the military in 1970 I was all caught up in the 3" high at 100 yds theory, after a few years I figured out that I was always either shooting over big game or hitting them in the spine. I think a 3" high zero is fine if you are shooting antelope or some other animal on flat ground, the problem here in the west is, you're almost always shooting at a steep uphill or downhill angle. Very seldom does anyone miss low, they always shoot over, at least thats been my experience in 50 years of shooting game.
I call it the old 30/30 syndrome, that is, hold center & then elevate a few inches for drop (not needed) & slip one over the top, happens everytime!

Dick

I have a a 270 loaded with 130g Hornady's, 58.0g of R#22 with a WLR primer that shoots 1/2" at 200 yards(3 shot groups).

I zero at 200 yards. On my Leupold 3.5-10, where the thick part of the reticle goes to thin, looks like a pointer which the tip of the pointer is dead nuts at 300. I put the tip of the pointer just over the top of a deer's back for a 400 yard shot.

Deer at 300 have no prayer if I place my shot correctly, dang sorry ruger is a death ray...

I have learned the hard way that a couple of high misses, and one lucky spine shot, show that the 3 inch high school doesnt work for me. I just can't remember to aim low at the closer shots. On the other hand, since rangefinders came out, you can take your time and calculate whatever drop you need if you're out past 300 yards. So, to sum up, carry your gun with the scope set at 2 1/2 or 3 power, and zeroed either at 200 or about 1 to 1 1/2 inches high at 100, and aim dead on. If the shot is past 300, take a deep breath, roll your scope up to 8 or 9 power, hit the rangefinder to confirm distance, calculate the drop based on your cartridge, and lie down or hold against a tree. If you don't have time to do all that, don't take the shot.

Yep, if you are unable to remember, it won't work. Of course its all mindset, if you can manage to remember to use a rangefinder and click etc.... then you COULD remember if you really wanted to. I have a buddy I got his wife to order him a new scope with mil dots in it... Those mess with his head.. to the point one day I'll buy a scope without and swap him.

Zero every thing for 200m or 220yds. The gong at the range is at 200m and this gives a dead on hold for offhand practice. At 100m most loads are between 2.5 and 3" high off the bullseye.

'06 zeroed at 200yd. I only use it on pronghorn.

A range finder and a 6X Leupold with dots gets it done for me out to 400yds or so, much past that and I need to think things over.

I use a Burris 3X-10X-40mm Signature Select with Ballistic Plex reticle on my 30-06. It is zeroed at 100 yards with a Hornady 165 gr Spire Point Interlock at 2900 fps. The BP reticle works out to 500 yards.

You're foot-slogging at 8500 feet above the oak brush jungles near Cortez,glance across a canyon and discover an outlandish MD buck that already has you "made",staring down your throat at 400 yards (the distance at which you're "supposed" to have plenty of "time"); he hangs around just long enough so that you(having zeroed at 100 yards, intending to rely on your turrets for anything over 200) have lazed him and twisted up for the shot.

He,being a finely tuned survivalist,ducks pronto into a stringer of spruce or aspen,and starts hightailing through the trees,angling slightly toward you,cutting distance,headed for a draw where he's gone forever...but hesitates at about 200...meantime you're twisted up for 400,trying to figure WTF to do and how to hold.But you really don't know,guess,and ....miss...cause all you had was a couple of seconds,which was not exactly cricket of the buck for failing to allow you time to click down(or similarly in reverse,"up")before he scooted off,knowing your intentions(remember he is not a 2.5 year old juvenile,but a seasoned survivor,why he is "big").

The whole situation was easily solved with a 270 or 7 mag zeroed 3" up at 100,providing only 8-12" of drop at 400.(And "no", the shooter would not be "guessing". Because he knows precisely how much drop he gets at 400 yards,having fired several thousand rounds with the rifle and load on varmints and at the range.)He was dead in seconds if you were trained and practiced with the rifle and load;he was also "dead" at 200,if you could live with an inch more mid range at that distance.No you would not miss high if you knew what you were doing....all without touching your sights; in seconds....

The genius of O'Connor,Page,and Keith with the 3" high zero was that they understood "hunting",game, and what it took to kill it under real field conditions.They kept it "simple";yet managed to kill even at extended range,and understood that what works like a charm at the range is not always the way to go in the hunting field.

Bob.How did you know the buck was at 400yds? Guesstimate,lasered?

If lasered, then that took time.I have a drop table on my stock.. I sight in dead on at 100,and know how high to hold at 300. At 200, it would have ben dead with no hold over. At 300 he would have been dead by not holding ove rhairlne. At 400,he does not get shot at with me. Been there, done that,have the Tee Shirt.
There are a lot of ways to accomplish the same thing. Just whatever works for each individaul.

saddlesore:You could know 400 if you lazed it and had time to do so.Some are pretty good at estimating distance if they have shot a lot.And there is always your reticle as well.Sometimes all in combination.

Distance is not as big an issue as flexibility in a sighting system that takes into consideration that animals are not static targets that come at predetermined distances.

Whatever system you use,be familiar with it.Not included in my repetoire is any system requiring me to alter zero while in the presence of game.That is one of my points that I am trying to make.And yes I would rather rely on gravity to 400-500 yards than a scope manufacturer's promise that a turret does not have slack,will not wear out,and will give reliable adjustments.On an expensive, or difficult hunt,or self-guided where I have waited years for a permit,I won't trust a scope manufacturer's word that a scope will adjust accordingly, with my hunt.I'll rely on me, and a flat shooting rifle,zeroed for the task at hand.

Like you, I have the Tshirt,too!

I can certainly attest to the mishaps of equiptment such as range finders and rifle scopes. Also being out in that Western high country over 3 dozen times, still it gets hard to estimate range for the first couple days with me anyway.

I zero my .270 Win & the 30-06 I owned at 200 yards! However, my .300 Win mag and 7mm Rem mag are both zeroed at 300 yards.
I never tried to kill elk further than 250 yards with my 06. I lost my first elk with a .270 cal years ago. A lesson well learned in bullets and bullet weight.

However, I was told by a wise old greybeard hunter to take that magnum of mine and zero it DEAD ON at 300 yards! I did so and also have laminated card on the stock to let me know what to do at 400, 450 and 500 yards with a 180 grain bullet. It has worked very well all these years.

400 yards is easy to tell--it is the distance from the crosshair to the bottom post on a Leupie fixed 6x (18", or chest depth on a deer). Instant range finding.

Same works for a fixed Leupie 4x, only that makes it about 275 yards.

Keep it simple.

I always look at my sierra handloading manual in the ballistic section and set my zero for maximum point blank range. Most calibers I shoot usually have a maximum point blank range of around 300 yards.

if you set a target at 25 yards away and hit bulls eye your 3-4" high at 100 (this is from memory so numbers are a littel off but close)at 200yds 6-7 1/2" high at 300yds your zero and 400yrds 12-14" low 500yrds 32-36" low but alot of this has to due with bullet wieght,what kind of bullet and so on the back of reloading books have this info in it.but what i said is a good rule of thumb. this info is for the 30-06

I shoot pretty boring stuff, 7X57 150's, 30-06 180's, 8X57 195's, .350RM 225's and they all pretty much use the 209 (like the primer) rule. 2" high at 100 = 0 at 200 = 9 low at 300. Beyond that it's time for this guy to do a little more hunting. The gap in the duplex is instant and works fine for ranging.
YMMV....

If you will zero .270 at 25 yards dead on with 130 grain bullets it will be about 3 inches high at 100 yds. This makes it much easier on you and less expensive. I like to use Federal trophy bonded bear claw 140 grain for elk. Remember the bigger the caliber the heavier the gun needs to be to absorb recoil! Shoot the rifle that you are most comfortable with. recoil on 270 is 14 recoil on 30-06 is 21 big difference. Forget about Holding over or taking bad angle shots. There is nothing worse than wounding an animal and no recovery! Above all be safe!

Exactly well done. Why do people buy flat shooting rifles then sight them in for 100 yd zero. Remember shoot zero at 25 yds then double check at 100 yds then if you are hunting from a tree stand and a deer walks out at 25 yds which is usually the case guess what? Check the point blank range for the caliber and grain you are shooting. You do not have to hold under or over from zero yards to max point blank range which is based on where the bullet is hitting at 100yds. Example .270 130grain zero 25 yds 3.1 inches high 100yds point blank range roughly 270yards

30-06 zero @ 200 yds 180 Core-lokts

Both my 270's and 30-06 are sighted in 3" high at 100.I even have my Nosler 300 grain in the 45-70 sighted the same way.

Jayco

DD,yes agreed...but to my eyeballs it looked like the 6X was subtending 5" at 100,so that is what I used as a guide...really close enough but you are likely right.

With anything doing 3200 fps,and zeroed for 300 yards,the bottom post of the 6X is my aiming point at 500 yards.It works good!

I sight most rifles to be spot on at 200 yards. That is the longest range I have access to and it has worked well for me.

Same, for elk and mule deer shooting 150g Noslers out of my 270 at 3000 fps I sight in at 3" at 100.

Chuck

I wouldn't zero a .30-06 'cause I dislike them. They kick too hard for what they are. For the .270 I would zero "at maximum point blank range".

Hadn�t noticed. Wish all my rifles were as gentle as my .30-06�s. You realize there is little difference and even that can be diminished by shooting lighter bullets in the 30-06???



That is like someone asking �What time is it� and you respond �January�. There is no such thing as a generic MPBR � you have to specify a target diameter, and even then it varies by load.

a 270 zeroed at 200 yds. is sufficient for any sane shot on elk you need to be taking. i've never hunted elk, but i think 300 yds. would probably be about the limit i would be taking a shot with a 270. maybe someone that has BTDT could respond? -keith

Well said!!!!

I'd say that's pretty close if you're comfortable with adjusting your elevation on your own out to 300 yards.

With a 130gr pill, zeroed at 200 yards, you are going to get roughly 5.5 inches of drop at 300 with a spitball of 1600 ft lbs of energy left.

For me, it depends. On smaller big game such as antelope, I prefer 2 to 2 1/2" high at 100 (reduces potential to overshoot at mid ranges). For elk, 3" high at 100.

I didn't read this entire thread but have we considered steep up/downhill shots? If you're zero'd at 300 yds, you're depending on gravity for that zero. If you're shooting at a steep angle at that distance, it seems to me you could be a foot or more high. Even higher for a longer shot.

Good point Jester, I had not considered that aspect of triangulating a steep shot.

To me it is easier to keep up with a 200 yard zero and remembering drop -7" @300 and -20" @400.
This also works well for the rifles that have Boone & Crockett reticled scopes.

All I can say is that many a time those bull elk are going to be just a tad further out than any 200 yards hunting out on public land. I always zero my elk (.338 win mag) rifle's at 300 yards dead on target. Now at 400 yards just aim top of the shoulder and behind and your in business.

I can certainly see by reading some of these posts, that we have a whole lot of experienced elk hunters commenting on zeroing a rifle for elk out West! Shooting at an elk on a 45-degree incline or decline is no different at 300 yards than it is a 200 yards, you still must compensate for the angle of the frigging shot.

The killing area on a bull elk is around the 20 x 16 inches at least! So if you can hit a 12 x 12 inch target, at 300 yards, your good to go. Now if you can't hit that 12 x 12 inch target, then you best practice up some more or rub your rabbits foot for that elk to come in to you under 200 yards perhaps. Now any guide worth his salt will tell you at camp to make sure your zeroed in with your rifle at 300 yards.

If he or she sees you can NOT hit squat with your gun, they will try to get you closer for the kill shot. I wonder if some of the people here have ever shot at a target past 200 yards. It certainly does seem so by reading these posts. I also believe the .270 Winchester is a little light for bull elk, unless you load your own with Nosler Partiton bullets in the 160 grain weight. I lean towards a 30-06 caliber rifle, with 180 grainers in the magazine much better suited for those big animals out West.

likewise, 270 is legal minimum for Sambar deer in oz which are very similar to elk in size and toughness.Most hunters shoot 3006 338 300 mag etc as they are often in very thick brush so you want them down pronto.

I shoot the Hornady Light Mags in 180 gr BTSP in my '06. I zero it at 200 yards. This puts me 2" high at 100 yards and at 300 I am 7 inches low and 21 inches low at 400.

"Suficient", yes.

"Optimum"? Depends on the shooter, but not for many.

I sight in my 06 dead on at 50yds, with rem 165gr CL's. It's about 2" or so ( a litte higher) at 100yds.

Shoot it at the ranges you want the info at. All the computer programs in the world won't make up for bench time.

I used to set her at 3" high at 100, but then at 25-50yds, which is more typical of what I shoot...it was way high.