Asking for a friend while I am at work....no time to research all the AZ regs. He has a Savage ML and will be shooting Hornady 300 gr SST's. We did not know if AZ had regs that allowed only black powder and substitutes, or not.

Thanks in advance.

He's GTG.

6. To take elk:
a. Centerfire rifles;
b. Muzzleloading rifles;
c. All other rifles using black powder or synthetic
black powder;
d. Centerfire handguns;
e. Handguns using black powder or synthetic black
powder;
f. Shotguns shooting slugs;
g. Bows with a standard pull of 40 or more
pounds, using arrows with broadheads no less
than 7/8 inch in width with metal cutting edges;
and
h. For individuals holding a crossbow permit
issued under R12-4-216, crossbows with a minimum
draw weight of 125 pounds, using bolts
with a minimum length of 16 inches and broadheads
no less than

Not so fast, Tom. On a muzzleloader-only elk hunt here are the requirements from R12-4-101 of the Regulations:
"Muzzle-loading rifle" means a firearm intended to be fired from the shoulder, incapable of firing fixed ammunition, having a single barrel and single chamber, and loaded through the muzzle with black powder or synthetic black powder and a single projectile.

I don't think you can use smokeless powder in a muzzle only hunt, best to call the G&F to find out for sure.

Kent

If thats the case we had better not tell an older acquaintance of mine....2 yrs ago he got a decent bull with his Savage smokeless and he is a "by the book" type of guy.

No need to bring it up now! I'm sure the powder he used was black powder, or at least dark gray.

and this...

1. An individual participating in a �muzzleloader� season
shall not use or possess any firearm other than
muzzle-loading rifles or muzzle-loading handguns,
as defined in R12-4-101

Mums the word...

As I read it, must use blackpowder, now I'm a newbe at BP and have decided to put in just this year for deer muzzleloader season, doesn't mean I know everything about it... not like it was archery or rifle and such...

Kent

It is kinda vague.

Exactly....someone hep us out...

I've googled as much as I can and cannot find a list of states or a clarification, the ones I've found say no smokeless powder in Az but you need to call and make sure it is prohibited... I feel it is in the language but don't go by that.

Good luck,

Kent

I do have the query out on a local site with many outfitters and guides, they will probably know.

Kent

Have to use black or synthetic like pyrodex, not smokeless. You also cannot use a revolver pistol or rifle, even a muzzleloading revolver, since they have more than one chamber.



Can't have a centerfire or rimfire in your possession while hunting. This means you can't have a 45 auto on your hip, or a 243 in your pack.


I don't see where the confusion lies.

OK, you will be getting a citation if it's not Blackpowder or Synthetic, smokeless is a 'NO-GO'.

Kent

Another question.....purely hypothetical of course....how would the officer know if you have bp or 4759 in your rifle? Naturally he could look in your pack or possibles bag and take a peek at your powder kept for 2nd and 3rd shots so to speak. If I were a criminal, which I am not, I could put 4759 in my rifle and make sure I have some bp containers in my bag...and 4759 hidden somewhere. Just thinking off the top of my head that's all....how in the world do they enforce that law, except to make you pull the bullet and pour out your powder?

By the way, thanks for your help...I will be sure to forward to my buddy. Y'all have been a big help. Very much apprecated!

I suspect many have accidentally made this mistake and I don't feel it's a big deal but to answer your question.

The officers know what guns shoot smokeless and if you are carrying one of those models they may investigate, during migratory bird season they will see if your pump or semi takes more than 2 down.

Kent

Here's the exact answer I received from a guide acquaintance of mine who is big in ML hunting. I should have posted this also.

Kent

I put that same question to several Game and fish guys several years ago and got the same answer all the way around,

Smokless powder Is not black powder nor is it snythic black powder, so it would not be leagle to use.
If caught using it there would be a tickent issued,


R L

Kent

Glad my Remmy dont use the smokeless stuff.

They wouldn't have to empty your gun. The lack of smoke and difference in sound when you fire WILL be a dead giveaway... and all they have to do is sit back and watch. Once you pull the trigger, you're in violation and you're likely to be cited. Having smokeless AND dummy powder on your person would show knowledge and intent to violate. It all goes downhill from there.

They may even take your elk and invite you not to come back for five years...

Seems like a huge risk, but you pays your money and makes your choice. I'd lean toward finding a decent load with a legal powder before coming out, and enjoying the hunt with no worries.

MattMan,

That's good advice. If you get caught and loose your animal or rifle or pay fines, it will ruin the good time you were there to have in the first place.

One time, just one time, I decided to play games and do something illegal. I put someone elses tag on one of two nice bucks I shot on opening day so my season would not end. After all, a lot of people do it and they don't get caught. Wouldn't you know, I got caught. The game warden took both bucks and both tags. I was hunting on my BIL's place and he got pissed so I lost a friend (temporarily) and lost the best hunting spot I ever had (permanently). I also paid a hefty fine, and I was in a deep funk for a month. What I did was stupid, and I paid a heavy price for my own stupidity.

Our time spent hunting is too precious to risk turning it into something aweful. Black powder and substitutes will kill deer as dead as smokeless. I hope someone here learns from my stupid mistake, but I won't say it was worth it.

I wouldnt do anything illegal, I'm just glad my ML dont have the smokeless capability so as to not have any questions at all.

Yeah, I lean toward that theory also. Haven't gone outlaw yet, and don't intend to.

Having been born and raised in AZ, I've also been checked twice (and been perfectly legal), once with quail and once with dove, when I had no idea anyone was even watching... I've even had a unit manager ask how many times I shot and to see my empties. If you have a limit of birds and no empties to show for it, you just earned a fine for littering.

Once had a BIL that thought it was real neat and sneaky to shoot lead and carry steel 'for show' when jump shooting ducks, the first few years lead was banned. The look on his face was priceless when I asked if he'd ever heard of a magnet...

Oh yeah, I agree Matt....it was just a hypothetical question. I shoot a TC Hawken 54 caliber and a TC Seneca in 45 caliber.....Pyrodex select and No Excuses bullets.

Regarding the steel/lead duck hunting issues, the outlaws here shoot their ducks on the ground with steel shot after their hunt is over with so the magnet trick won't bust 'em. Folks find a way around everything these days. I can't afford to get busted on something like that because my job would be terminated immediately (Federal boy).

Those NoExcuses do leave a gaping freakin' hole, don't they?

What hunt/unit did you friend draw?

Its like shooting a stinkin' brick through an animal.....they usually go about three feet to the ground and stay there!