140 VLD berger would you use for long range shot 400 yards for elk?

i would just shoot accubonds vld seem a touch soft for elk in that caliber.

No. I do not like the Berger theory/design of fragmentation. I have the opposite idea, that a hunting bullet should expand but hold together. I would go with one of the bonded, partitioned or mono metal bullets. Plain old cup and core bullets would be my choice before the Berger VLD. But some like the Bergers and take elk with the one you are talking about. So-----------?

8mmwapiti

absolutely!

Dober

Put me in the "No, thanks" column.

I have never used Berger bullets for any big game hunting but I have a friend that used them while hunting mule deer and he did not like them for "fragging" up. I myself will continue to use Nosler Partitions, TBBC or Swift A Frame bullets on my big game animals. Nosler Accubond is a great long range bullet! It has stayed together on the wet news print test we have done at the farm. The B.C. and S.D. are very good on this bullet.

I know I'm jumping into a mess by saying this but you should really be thinking of the animal before you shoot long range. 140 grains at that range???
If you don't hit the elk perfectly through the lungs you'll lose him.
Elk are big animals, and 400 yrds is a long way. If he doesn't know you are there, and at 400 yrds how could he unless you where screaming out loud, get closer.
I won't get into a discussion as to what is an adequate caliber for elk but suffice it to say the more elk you kill the more you realize that perfect shots are rare and animals that stand perfectly still while you aim even more rare. Be fair to the animal and get closer. get as close as you can, and if you're too far after trying to get closer avoid the temptation to shoot you'll be a better hunter !!

I like Berger Bullets but don't think I'd go that route with the 6.5-284, and I have one that I like a lot. Elk are big and tough and don't give it up without a fight. I'd want tougher bullets in a 6.5-284. I'd probably want a tougher caliber. From my arsenal, I'd pick my 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag or .338-284 before the 6.5-284. More bullet, more energy, more penetration, more room for error with less chance of messing up. My .375 H&H with 235 gr. bullets would be a good choice and on the other end of the spectrum. Don't know if I would choose it, but it is a valid option.

VLD's in a heavier bullet, heavier caliber would make more sense...

IMHO, of course...

DF

Sectional density is the biggest factor in killing any critter. If the bullets are of similar construction and SD, then caliber shouldn't factor into the discussion about killing elk or deer at 400yds.

The 6.5x284 will kill any deer or elk out at the ranges stated, because the 270 and 30-06 have been doing the same for nearly a century. In all reality, the higher BC values of the 6.5 140gr bullets probably make it a better 400yd gun than cartridges alot of people consider for those ranges.

The 6.5 caliber guns [6.5x55, 260rem, 6.5x47, 6.5Creedmore, 6.5x284, 6.5-06] all kill why beyond their paper ballistics because they carry their energy with high effiency and don't beat up the shooter with recoil. They make it easier to hit the target at longer ranges, and you can't kill what you can't hit. The same reason the 260 and 6.5x284 are so popular at 1000yd matches is the same reason they will work well at 400 yds on critters. They hit what they're pointed at and they don't beat you to death with recoil.

I would have no trouble using a 6.5x284 for elk. That being said, still not a fan of VLD's just because none of my guns really seem to like them...

I think that if I was going elk hunting with 1 of my .264" bore rifles, I'd strongly consider the 140 grain Partition and aim to break bone. I haven't hunted elk much, but have seen them go a long way with a bullet through the lungs, usually dying in a place that makes them a PITA to recover.

I'm not Berger shooter, so can't comment on how good or bad a choice it is, but feels confident that the 140 grain Partition will generally shoot straight and will always break bone.

JEff

In my 6.5-284 the Berger 140 is my bullet of choice for killing elk.

No Idea On The Berger's. But the 120 TSX will Do The Trick.

Will everyone who has actually killed an elk with a Berger and has commented on this thread please raise their hand?

Am expecting some chirps here. Carry on.

To 400 yards, I would want to use a Swift Scirroco. I have done a lot of damage with the 270 130's (at least 25 head) and would expect same results with the 6.5. Those bullets have a very high BC as well.

I would bet the bullet traveling thru the lungs was some super duper premium bullet instead of a Cup-n-core bullet. Thousands of elk die every year to stick and string hunters and they shoot them thru the lungs.

As long as up close ranges are not in the plan of action, I would think a 140gr Gameking, Hot-Cor, Interlock, SST, or Accubond would work just fine at 400yds on elk.

I realize from a ballistic point of view that B.C. is very important regarding bullet delivery to the target. But for killing power, don't forget the theory about mass, momentum and the Taylor Index. Elmer Keith was big on that side of the equation. Shock effect and tissue damage from the hi vel side of the house with the Weatherby school also has merit and a large following. I guess it's prudent not to take either to the extreme, but have some of both. Light bullets on a big animal pushes the shock effect theory pretty far, but animals seem to drop dead. I guess it's what one if comfortable with and what works in that hunter's hands as a function of individual hunting style and skill. One camp is not likely to convert the other, no more than Keith convinced JOC that he was right and Jack was wrong. The discussion outlived them both and keeps on going like the Energiser Bunny.

IMHO,

DF

[quote=dmsbandit]Sectional density is the biggest factor in killing any critter. If the bullets are of similar construction and SD, then caliber shouldn't factor into the discussion about killing elk or deer at 400yds.

So a 70 grain .224 bullet is a good elk bullet at 400 yards?

Sorry have to call you an that !

Bigger critters, bigger calibers for me. SD, BC, kinetic energy are physics calculations and can be bent to make either side of the argument. Pracical experience says better bullet construction, heavier bullets per caliber, larger caliber for the imperfect "real" hunting world.

As far as the Berger hunting VLD's other have had tremendous success with them. I would stay with the bonded, partitioned, or monolithic expanding bullets for something as big as Elk or larger. Mistakes happen Elk bones are big make arrangements for it.

And, they usually have to wait until the target animal bleeds down before trailing and trying to find him. No bang plop with stick and string unless one happens to hit the spine. I guess I see the draw to that type hunting, but for me, it's gunpowder and a bullet...

Different strokes for different folks...

DF

It was 1979 and I was really fledgling,but I recall the disussion with old John Z out of Durango,on a hunt,while we were horseback....(John had a Grand Slam,trips to Africa,NA game,and extensive elk experience.)His favorite rifle was a M70 in 264 Win Mag that he had used on "everything";used to toss it airborne in to the tent.....I'd wince...

He was in his mid 60's at the time...the conversation was nothing profound,but I never forgot it,either.

I asked John what he thought of the 264 and 270 on elk..."They are good", he said.

How about the 7 mag and the 30/06?

"Better",came the reply....

So how about the 300 magnums?

"Better still...if you can shoot them".

Question - How the hell do you know what the range is when you are loading up ammo?

Are you willing to pass if you get a 10 yard shot and have a C&C bullet in the chamber?

Just curious �

Sorta wondering the same thing....

Never knew in advance..what the distance was gonna be....

If you're watching a ridgeline, meadow, clearing, field, etc you can have an idea if the animal will be shot at distances measured in 100s of yards and not a 100 feet. The OP asked about 400yds, not 40yds. At those ranges C-N-C bullets work fine on any game. You don't need a GMX, TSX,or E-tip to kill at 400yds. Houndreds of thousands of dead elk and moose say so.

Besides, I doubt modern C-N-C bullet would blow up when started at 2800-2900fps no matter what bone they hit. That's about all a 6.5x284 is going to get from a 24" barreled gun when using a 140gr bullet.

I like my rifles, shotguns, etc.

Just a thought about the "Stick and String" crowd.

A well placed, heavy, arrow with the right broadhead that is scary sharp kills incredibly fast. I do not need to worry about changing broadheads for different ranges. One Zwickey Delta, Bear Razor, Woodsman, Snuffer, or Magnus, etc. will kill them all, quickly. Most animals fall within sight. Six to Eight inches of razor blade through the heart and lungs will do that, though.

Getting close to your target game animal is a big part of the fun and challenge of bowhunting.

Don't knock it until you try it.

Having �an idea� isn�t a guarantee. I�ve sat where the closest shot expected was 400 yards and turned down a shot at 25 feet. Ended up taking one at around 40 yards a few seconds later.

AT ten yds, you should be able to put the bullet whereever you want and NOT hit a bone you're worried about. A shot in the neck from a 357mag handgun would drop an elk at that range.

2 yrs ago, I shot a whitetail buck at 30yds with a 45cal XTP HP at 2100+ fps. That bullet is only rated for 1600FPS and it shattered the shoulder knuckle, destroyed the lungs, liver, and 1 kidney before becoming lodged in the front of the opposite hindquarter. It went thru 3' of deer AFTER breaking the hardest bone in that deers' body. Do you really think a C-N-C rifle bullet would do less when it's used INSIDE it's velocity rating?

I blew up a .308 165 grain Sierra CNC on a SC deer shoulder knuckle last year at .308 win velocities. Deer was 65 paces from me. I shot at it through a small hole in the cover. It hit the ground hard, then popped right back up a took off. Luckily, it was to the open field side of my stand and I was able to hit it with a second shot and drop it. The first bullet simply flatened on the bone causing a bilateral fracture on the knuckle and a 3/4 fracture of the lower part of the shoulder bone with little to no penetration. So much for CNC bullets on Elk bone up close at high velocity?

.45XTP HP at 2100 fps.

And that was with a low SD, low BC, heavy for caliber, bullet. Interesting.......

I shoot it out of my Savage Muzzleloader for deer. I get most of my shots under 100yds, but they do group well at 200yds too. 1.5-2" groups at 200yds is the norm, but the drop is about 20", so they need alittle "kentucky" elevation if you would be used at that range.

In a word, it �depends�.

I shot my first elk with a 162g Hornady Interlock at about 110 yards. Calculated impact velocity was 2804fps based on an estimated 3000fps MV. The bullet hit a rib going in, missed the off-side ribs and came to rest under the hide on the off side. Retained bullet weight was 47% and change. Impact velocity was well inside its velocity rating.

As far as I was concerned, the challenge to the bullet�s integrity was pretty minimal and I was less than impressed with its penetration performance. The following year I switched to 160g Grand Slams and it took me 20 years to recover one. When I did, also from about 110 yards, it had destroyed both shoulder joints of a 6x6 bull elk before coming to rest under the hide on the off side. Retained weight was over 70%. Much better in my book.

These days I tend to run TTSX, MRX, and North Fork and haven�t made up my mind on Scirocco II and AccuBond bullets, both of which I used last year for antelope along with another 150g AB for elk. With the former three I don�t worry about the bullet holding together or getting good penetration, with actual shots ranging from 10 feet to over 300 yards. I have yet to stop a TTSX or MRX so I can�t tell you what their weight retention is, only that a lengthwise stem to stern shot on a mulie hasn�t been enough.


By the way, I don�t worry about bone and I�ve seen neck shot elk go a long ways and take several people a day to locate. No thanks on that, either.

Close or far that bullet (@3225 FPS in the 264 Win Mag ) has been flawless for me.

Closest was 35yds and furthest was 1102yds.

Disclaimer.

I only expect the bullet to kill the elk, not to produce a perfect mushroom, retain 90% of its weight or penetrate through 3 elk lengthwise.

Theres some experience for the thread-Thanks John.

I'm in the "Hold together for penetration" Club. I think the margin of error is too high with the Bergers, based on Berger's description of what they are designed to do. I know-you have to hit them in the vitals with any bullet to kill them.

I just belive that penetration cant be a bad thing. Having a bullet that penetrates well will give you more opportunity to kill elk-not having to have the perfect, standing, braodside shot that is seldom given. Give me a Hornady SP, Barnes, Speer, Nosler, you get it. I've used Hornady, Barnes, and Noslers to date. The next one will more than likely fall to a Nosler AB or TSX-again.

Disclaimer: I have never hunted, shot, attempted to hunt or shoot a Berger bullet.

Oh, I guess I could add that my 6.5-284 elk load consists of the 130 Nosler AB.

Joseph

Why bother John? Its way easier for some to flap yaps without actually ever using a Berger. But they know how it operates, correct?

From 30 to 300, all elk that I have put Bergers into became freezer meat without any tracking.

A perfect scenario for a VX-3 3.5-10x40 CDS Leupold with the ballistic turret calibrated for that load. I did my primitive weapons 45-70 that way and with a turn of the turret, it's a 325 yd rifle. That rig should go 250-275 yds, maybe more, I would think.

I have a Savage Muzzle loader, SS with laminated stock, that I haven't used since the new primitive weapon regs were issued in LA. If I was still shooting it, I would use a CDS set up.

DF

'farmer,
I have the same gun. SS action with the brown laminated stock. Heavy as hell, but just as accurate and reliable as my centerfire rifles. I've only shot smokeless powder out of it, and it has never failed to kill anything it's pointed at.

Thousands of deer and elk killed by archers every year are not recovered. Most game management agencies use a recovery loss rate for archery hunters of 25-30% in other words that many run off wounded and die without recovery. I have killed 6 deer with a bow and lost one that was hit hard due to dry conditions and oak leaves for tracking. Never did find her, she was hit at close range just a little far back.
The purpose of sport hunting is to kill the animal cleanly and ethecially, and to recover and utilize the meat. Not just kill it, many calibers suitable for killing may not kill immediately or create a blood trail. Most hunters lack the skill sets to kill animals cleanly at longer ranges with any weapon. Even more so with samll caliber rifles at long range. They also lack the patience to wait until the perfect shot at long range, (as well as short range) how many of us have heard the 600 yard, offhand one shot in the neck stories. I have as well as many of you. I had a hunter tell me last year that he only took neck shots. I polietely tried to tell him that he was follish and that other shot opportunities are much better. For those highly skilled that can and will take "only" the standing boadside shot then almost any legal caliber will meet the clean and ethecial test. For those (the vast majority) that will take the shot presented no matter how presented or at whatever range a larger more powerfull caliber is a requirement. Someone once said regarding elk, use as much gun as you can shoot accurately, I believe that is true to this day.

Elkmen,
First welcome to "the Fire". Always nice to hear new opinions.

That 25-30% figure seems very high to me. I hunted in an archery only club on 6800 acres in the low country of South Carolina. We had 38 bowhunters of all levels that took between 125 to 200 deer a year in the swamps. In my five years at that club we lost a total of 18 deer. If you have not hunted down there it is thick and about 60% water with small islands and ridges to hunt from. A more difficult place to trail a bow shot deer is hard to imagine. Yet our recovery rate was somewhere around 98%. We got pretty good at tracking but we were just regular bowhunters, nothing special. Just saying that number seems very high. There can't be that much difference from western bowhunters to eastern bowhunters.

fyshbum,

I have only killed one bull elk with a bow and he traveled about 50 yards after the shot and fell over dead, so I don't have a lot of personnel history on recovery rates for elk with archery equipment, but it wouldn't surprise me if the recovery loss rate that Elkmen speaks of is true. One of my hunting partners bowhunted north of Kemmerer, WY last September with a group of three guys and they found three dead bulls during their week long bowhunt, all having appeared to have been lost archery kills. My buddy, who has probably killed 75 whitetails (we do a lot of doe culling) even missed a bull at 30 yards. I don't think elk and whitetail recovery/success rates can be compared, apples to oranges.

Tally Ho

Wyoelk,


I was unaware that a compete resume was required before replying to a question on the campfire.

just a little yap flapping
8mmwapiti

Dmsbandit...just curious how many elk you have killed? White tail dear are fragile compared to elk. Sectional density has NOTHING to do with the killing power of a bullet. If your theory was correct, a muzzle loader bullet, nor a pistol bullet would ever kill an elk. Neither would ballistic tips, which I have killed several truck loads with. Flinch

SD is the measure of the bullets ability to penetrate it's target. It is THE most important factor if all other things are equal. A 30 cal 130gr bullet at 2700fps will never penetrate as deeply as a 180gr bullet at the same velocity. That's why certain bullets thru the ages are noted for killing way beyond their paper ballistics. A 175gr 7mm, 200gr 30cal, 140-160gr 6.5mm, all kill anything they hit.

No, it is simply the ratio of a bullet�s maximum cross sectional area to its mass.


By definition, if the sectional densities are net equal, all other things CANNOT be equal. Either the bullet mass or diameter must change.



Ah, so you choose to vary the mass as the only permissible other variable, but varying diameter is equally valid.

For myself, I�d rather hunt elk with a 180g .338� slug at SD .225 and 2900fps MV than an 80g .224� bullet with a higher SD of .228 and the same MV.

One has 3363fpe at the muzzle, the other only 1494. One has more energy at 265 yards than the other has at the muzzle. One drops below 1000fpe at 140 yards, while the other has 2235fpe at that range and doesn�t drop to 1000fpe until the 385 yard line.

Regardless of SD, a bullet cannot perform work with energy it doesn�t have. In the case of elk, the �work� is the rapid and inelastic deformation of bone and flesh. Energy isn�t everything, but I�ll take the larger diameter bullet and the extra energy anyway.

SD does NOT equal momentum. Momentum is what pushes bullets through objects, not Sectional density.

Throw in frangibility of the bullet in question and you get to the point of the argument. According to the SD argument a 165 grain .308 BT will out penetrate a 150 gain .308 TTSX. This is paper ballistics, not real world experience.

VLD's act differently than other expanding hunting bullets in that they penetrate a few inches before they come apart to disintegrate vital tissue. Those that have used them on elk like them a lot, those that have not seem to veiw them as just another frangible bullet.

None needed big guy. You would be just a little more credible if you have actually used a Berger on an elk and came back to tell why you didnt like it. At best, you are guessing right now.

Or have you shot one and can give us some reasons why you didnt like its performance?

I agree that there are plenty of good quality bullets available for thumping elk, Berger included. The OP asked about using a Berger for elk. Do you not think you should have actually used one before flapping your mouth in this thread? Did I miss where the OP asked for best guesses?

One does not need to actually use a product to have an fact-based opinion. One of the great things about the human mind is it can learn from the experiences of others through various forms of communication � a fact that is responsible for getting us out of the caves and away from primitive lifestyles.

Berger explains very clearly how their bullets work on their web site and there are plenty of 1st person reports of how they actually work in the field. For someone to choose not to use them because of those explanations and reports is a perfectly reasonable decision. To further communicate that decision and/or the reasons for it is also perfectly reasonable.

Have I ever shot a Berger at game? No. Am I likely to give up using products that either have or are expected to perform as desired in all situations I am likely to encounter to use a product whose manufacturer claims performance that may be marginal or worse in situations I have actually encountered? No.

Here is what Berger says:




13-15� penetration???

In 2007 I had a quartering away shot go bad when the buck stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke. The 7mm 140g North Fork entered low on the right rear ham and was recovered from up against the sternum. A 140g Berger would like have killed the buck as well with the same placement, but meat damage would likely have been considerably greater and the buck would have been dead no faster. Had the buck been a bull , based on Berger�s claims of 15� or so penetration, the results might well have been a lot of additional meat loss with a good possibility or probability that nothing would reach the vitals. I�ve seen a bull shot in the hind quarter easily outdistance the shooter and eventually be lost.

Do I think a Berger would have worked for most every shot I�ve ever taken. Undoubtedly, because I try hard for broadside shots and have routinely turned down less than satisfactory opportunities. Still, one never knows when things will go wrong, as with that buck � which was a first and 25 years into my big game hunting career.

Berger VLD bullets? Thanks, but �NO, thanks�.

By the way, the OP asked


Nothing in there about actual experience, just a simple �would you�.

If actual experience was required by the OP, as opposed to reasonable choices made on readily available facts, the only possible and truthful answer is �Yes�.

If �Yes� is the only possible answer, why bother with the question at all???

The only correct answer?

Your answer to the "would you" is just a guess. Remember, you have no actual experience in sending a VLD into wapati.

Funny that you and a few others are always the first to jump on a Berger thread and say yucky, dont use. Yet you have no actual field experience with the bullet. I am still waiting for a Berger basher like you to jump on here and say that you put one right into the shoulder and the sob ran away. Thus, you shouldnt use them.

If you wanted a question answered on a subject, would you prefer the replies come from a person who has been there and done that or someone who is guessing?

Carry on girls... I have yet to see a living elk who had both lungs deflated and I have yet to see an elk get away that has his shoulder bones repositioned into little pieces. Lots and lots of bullets will do the above just fine from a proper indian in control of the trigger.

Dont think that I am pimping Bergers. I killed my bull last year with..... oh no, a SGK. How did that ever happen?

Another great thing is the ability to detect bullshit and until you tell me about your personal experience using said bullets, well.. let me go get my waders.

None needed big guy. You would be just a little more credible if you have actually used a Berger on an elk and came back to tell why you didnt like it. At best, you are guessing right now.

Or have you shot one and can give us some reasons why you didnt like its performance?

I agree that there are plenty of good quality bullets available for thumping elk, Berger included. The OP asked about using a Berger for elk. Do you not think you should have actually used one before flapping your mouth in this thread? Did I miss where the OP asked for best guesses? [/quote]


The OP ask "would you use"

140 VLD berger would you use for long range shot 400 yards for elk?

And I answered

No. I do not like the Berger theory/design of fragmentation. I have the opposite idea, that a hunting bullet should expand but hold together. I would go with one of the bonded, partitioned or mono metal bullets. Plain old cup and core bullets would be my choice before the Berger VLD. But some like the Bergers and take elk with the one you are talking about. So-----------?

8mmwapiti

You say I do not need a resume but have little credibility if not. You come off as if you think you are the one and only authority on elk and Berger bullets. And a judge of all others here on the fire.



Are you as pompous as you come off?


8mmwapiti

Pompous? Thats your call.

Authority on Bergers? Hell no. Used them, they work. As do many other bullets.

Reading comprehension? Go slap whatever teacher failed you.

Questions? Did your father fill the family freezer with game meat? What bullet did he use?

I have a friend that has the same stamp on his barrel and the same bullet loaded in his brass as the OP. Should I call him up and tell him to empty his freezer and sell it?

Some internet experts say it wont work.

I wouldn't pay much attention to anyone who killed one elk with anything...especially if was an easy set-up shot through the slats. Or even 5-6...that isn't "experience"...


Which is why I'll grab cues from John Burns or John B when it comes to Bergers or anything else.Years back,I listened to people around me who had real experience,and guys like Hagel, Page, O'Conner, Bowman,Bill Steigers...and then confirmed for myself.They did not steer me wrong.Which is why, I think, I've had very few bullet "problems",or difficulty killing things(nothing hard here).

These guys get to see a lot more,shoot a lot more, than most Internet dwellers who jump on a bandwagon and proclaim some bullet as the Second Coming after one elk.

I figure after 10-20 animals, you're starting to get the hang of things....more is better.

What part of "all other things being equal" did you miss? In a 30 caliber, A 165gr TSX will out penetrate a 150gr TSX. A 180gr Hot-cor will out penetrate a 165gr Hot- Cor, 180gr VLD will out penetrate a 165gr VLD, etc, etc, etc. It isn't complicated, all you have to do is read and understand.

My 6.5x284 seems to love 130ABs. I would not hesitat to shoot an elk with that combo, but have only shot deer and antelop with it so far.
I much prefer 284Win with 160NPs. I know they work on elk.
jmho
Tim

Part of my day job is to evaluate complex systems costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and give a thumbs up or thumbs down for production usage. Some of these systems get evaluated personally, in some cases I rely on a combination of information provided by the manufacturer and reliable but 2nd hand information and some get evaluated based solely on information provided by the manufacturer. It is not possible, desirable or even necessary to personally perform a �hands on� evaluation of each system.

The same is true with bullets. I fully trust the vids put out by John Burns and believe him when he says the Berger bullets have worked well for him. Same with you. I also believe, as I have stated before, a Berger bullet would have worked fine for most if not all shots I�ve taken over the years and �all� is probably the correct answer but something we can never know for sure.

I also trust the manufacturer when they claim 40-85% fragmentation and up to 15� of penetration. Berger claims the VLD is the best �long range� hunting bullet available and they may be right. Most of my shots at elk and deer are fairly close range, however, the longest to date being 350 yards and most under 200 � I want a bullet that will perform well from the muzzle to 600 yards, the limit of my practice, and don�t really care about ranges over 600. The Grand Slam, North Fork, TTSX, and MRX bullets have yet to disappoint at any range with most animals going straight down or taking no more than a few steps. For a Berger to provide reliably faster kills than these bullets have provided the animals would have to drop before the shot.

What concerns me is what happens when things go wrong. Based on Berger�s own claims and various reports by actual Berger users, I simply don�t trust a Berger to provide the same penetration as a North Fork, TTSX or MRX when a quartering away shot becomes a shot to the ham because the animal moved, as happened to me in 2007.

And yes, if actual experience was required, the only correct answer to �would you� would be �yes�. At this time I would not use Berger bullets and my response of �no� is therefore appropriate. Might I change my mind in the future? Possibly, but I think it not likely as I see no real advantage over the bullets I currently use at the ranges I�m willing to take a shot � and indeed feel the Bergers may not measure up in some situations that are reasonably likely to occur, again based on the manufacturer�s own performance claims and a belief that yes, they will perform exactly as so claimed. If the OP wanted to limit the respondents to those with actual experience the operative phrase would not have been �would you� but rather �have you�.

BTW, I�m glad the Bergers work to your satisfaction and hope they continue to do so. I�m not pimping Speer Grand Slam, North Fork SS or Barnes TTSX/MRX either, but they have all worked flawlessly and I intend to keep using them and/or bullets like them. (Well, not the Grand Slam any more, but not because they didn�t work.)

Still looking for the resume that YOU say I do not need?

8mmwapiti

Did not say they do not work. I said that I would not use them, and said why. Also said that others do use them and like them.

So my conclusion is that by your assessment is that anyone who does not want to use Berger bullets for elk is inexperienced and uneducated. The question if you will take time to read it did not ask if they will work or even how well they will work. The question was would you use them. I would not. Obviously you would.

I do not like the design/theory of fragmentation. That is not to say that it does not work nor does it say that no one likes it.


So you take what I said and conclude that I have little or no experience and that I was failed by teachers.

You say, and I quote (cut and paste)

"Your answer to the "would you" is just a guess. Remember, you have no actual experience in sending a VLD into wapati."

My answer is not a guess, it is a short and direct "no" I am not guessing I would not use them for the reasons stated in my first answer. But the statement that I have "no actual experience" is a guess on your part and it is also wrong.


I do not like your favorite bullet. Get over it!

8mmwapiti

I have never used those Bergers on elk, so can not comment on them. I have used several others though over the years. The Nosler Partitions always gave me good service and no problems, both in the .270, 30-06 the short time I used one and then the .300 Win mag for over 20 years.

I like them still today but also like the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and the Swift A Frames ever since they came out on the market. I never really had any success with those Barnes bullets and heaven knows I tried a bunch of them in several calibers. I shot some Bitter Roots years ago and those too were a very fine bullet for staying together and breaking bone on large animals like bears.

Now that's a quote everyone should remember!!!If everyone liked my favorite bullet the cost would double so I prefer everyone does not like it.

Jayco

Momentum, S.D., B.C., K.E. are all different and represent but pieces of the puzzle.

Monentum is Velocity times Mass (MV) and is an important part of the heavy bullet theory pushed by Elmer Keith and measured by the Taylor Index. Taylor and company used bullet mass, velocity and diameter to calulate the "killing power" of a bullet. This was a reaction to the high velocity crowd who were pushing Kinetic Energy as the ultimate measure of a round.

Kinetic Energy is mass times the square of velocity (MV2). This formula gives velocity a geometric gain and was the basis for lot of the hyper velocity ctgs of the day.

Both are true formulas and both are "right".

Sectional Density is a weight to diameter relationship and important factor in bullet penetration.

Ballistic Coefficient is the slickness in flight or the aerodynamic ability to resist deceleration from drag.

No one value has a corner on the market, as all play roles in bullet performance. It's when the right combination of factors comes together that a great bullet is born. And each set of hunting circumstances may well favor a different combination of factors. That's what makes ballistics such an interesting field of study and something for hunters to discuss and argue about, which is a healthy enterprise. Most of the time, that is...

DF

IMO, the point of whether or not the 6.5 CM is up to the task is a moot point. Wayne and John proved that.

I believe, by what I read here and personal experience/preference is, it's up to the individual shooter/hunter. Does the shooter have the experience to shoot that far? Does the shooter/hunter have the sense/experience, as Wayne said later in his interview (?), to not shoot unless the conditions were up to his ability? I paraphrased what Wayne said.

Also, if a hunter wants to keep it within 300, 200 or 100 yds, that's his choice. I love up close and personal! If he wants to reach out, more power to him. With that power though, comes the maturity to make sure his equipment, ability and weather conditions are able to make the shot. Years ago, like decades, I took a long, 450 yds shot at an antelope, and killed it, by holding over using the duplex reticle in a flat shooting 7mm Roy. That was the extent of my ability and equipment. Today, that same shot would be a chip shot for "some" of my equipment and ability.

I say, each to his/her own.

Alan

Whoops! Meant to post this under the 6.5CM link. Oh well. Same same!

I am still in the "getting to know you" section of using my 6.5/06 model 70 Winchester I put together awhile back. I am pretty sure it is capable of taking elk or moose with the proper presentation of the animal.

I know it would not be like having my .338 Win mag in my hand with a 250 grain bullet but nonetheless it certainly has ability to get the job done with the proper shot taken. I just have not had the opportunity yet to use that rifle like I want to in the field.

What bullets have you tried or are planning to use?

DF

I recently built a 6.5x284 and have not completed load work up but from the groups so far with the 140 Bergers placing the bullet in the correct spot should not be an issue.

I shot a hog last year with my 7WSM at 300 yards, the bullet entered as the hog was quartering to me right about the third or fourth rib. It launched the hog off the trail he was on and into a creek bed about 20 feet below. I have a brake on the rifle so I was able to see most of it. Berger 162 gr. The lungs and heart were a jellied mess.

Also shot a nice 5x6 elk in Colorado with a Berger bullet. Same basic shot as the hog. Devastating damage to the internal working parts. 300 win mag 185 gr.

All that being said I am sure that I would not grab my 6.5 to go elk hunting. They are big critters and I want the most horsepower I can get. If I had a 338 I would use that. Bullet placement and type only goes so far. The bigger the critter the bigger the bullet. Bullet brand and type doesn't matter as much as weight and placement. Everyone has their favorite type but if you don't place it correctly you are in for some serious trouble.

Start with your first grade teacher and work up until you find the one that failed you.

Show me where I said Berger is my favorite please. I have used them on elk and they work just fine. Like Coyote Hunter, I have also used X, XLC, TSX, Ballistic Tips, Partitions, Grand Slams, SGK and others. They work just fine too...

Again, not pimping Berger. Based on "experience" with them, they work. Still waiting for a hater to show me a bad experience with one on an elk. Guess I will keep waiting.

Have a good day.

My favorite comes in a green box, is pretty damn cheap and pretty accurate out of most guns. JeffO says it is a poor choice for elk but I carry on anyway.

Dirt-Farmer, I am going to try some of those TSX bullets and those Nosler Accubonds first off when I get a chance and the weather gets back down into the 80's instead of near 100 degrees. This old man can not take that heat anymore.