Guys,
Are there any States in the USA that require or allow shotguns to be used on Elk with solid slugs?

Interested in links to their legislation as I'm trying to put a proposal together for deer hunting with shotguns in Australia.

I kind of need to know are they effective on that sized game ... but more importantly, how is the legislation worded to prevent grandpa and his 100year old hammer gun from taking a pot shot. This would be a concern to local legislators.
Cheers...
Con

Well, yes shotguns are legal in several western states. I looked at Colorado which simply requires a 20 gauge or bigger firing a single slug (not buckshot). New Mexico requires 28 gauge or bigger with a single slug. I don't think Oregon even worries about gauge.
As to effectiveness, muzzleloader seasons are very popular for elk here in the US. Usually the requirement for elk is 45 or 50 caliber minimum. As a practical matter, most use a 50 caliber with a very few using something with a larger bore. I mention this as modern sabot slug loads are generally comparable to stout muzzleloader loads in range and power. A lot of elk get killed during the muzzleloader seasons. Not many hunters will use a shotgun for elk during the rifle season.
Grandpa's old 12 gauge firing a brenneke load is plenty lethal at short range. I don't think we worry too much about someone using "too little" when it comes to shotguns. I have seen hunters using a 20 gauge once in a blue moon but just almost everyone deerhunting with a shotgun is using a 12 gauge with 2 3/4 or 3 inch slug loads. Big slugs at close range and placed right are sure killers.
As shotguns vary a great deal, you may want to focus on requiring rifle type sights and not less than 20 gauge. If the shotgun has open adjustable iron sights or an optical sight mounted, then you have some reason to believe the shotgun has been set up properly and perhaps even sighted in. Rifled barrel shotguns are plenty capable at extended ranges with the right ammunition. Smoothbores can do better than you might expect but are a shorter range proposition.
I will say that I think worrying about sights is probably working too hard to solve a problem you're unlikely to have. If your hunter is using a smoothbore, has fired it before to check point of impact (made sure that his gun doesn't throw slugs wild or high) and limits his range to around 25 yards (depending on her gun and load combo), he or she will be eating venison.

Idaho has or had a short range only unit that includes shotguns.



Jayco

Never seen an elk with a shotgun. Most I've known are rifle types.

I'm not sure what a 100 year old hammer gun has to do with anything?

Rifle seasons don't limit centerfire rifles to being post world war one for example. Why would a shotgun from 1890 be less effective than a new shotgun? It either meets the bore requirement or it doesn't.

A car must go a minimum speed on the highway. It doesn't say it has to be a car made after 1930 to legally travel on the turnpike, only that it must be tagged and capable of making the appropriate speed.

Not trying to be a smart ass, just asking what is the concern?

Idaho allows shotguns as long as you use either slugs or 00 or larger buckshot. With the exception of a couple short range weapon hunts that Logcutter mentioned, they're not required anywhere in the state.

Not a bad question at all ...

Our current regulations sit as such:
(1) A person must not hunt, take or destroy Red Deer, Rusa Deer or Sambar Deer other than by the use of-
(a) a centre-fire rifle having a calibre of no less than 6�85 mm (0�270") with ammunition which has a cartridge case length of no less than 51mm (2") and a projectile weight of no less than 8�45 grams (130 grains); or
(b) a muzzle-loading rifle having a calibre of no less than 11�45 mm(0�45"), with a projectile of not less than 14�91 grams (230 grains) in weight; or
(c) a long bow having a draw-weight of no less than 22�5 kilograms, using a broad-head arrow having a minimum weight of no less than 25 grams and a minimum of two sharpened cutting blades; or
(d) a recurved bow having a draw-weight of no less than 22�5 kilograms, using a broad-head arrow having a minimum weight of no less than 25 grams and a minimum of two sharpened cutting blades; or
(e) a compound bow having a peak-weight of no less than 22�5 kilograms, using a broad-head arrow having a minimum weight of no less than 25 grams and a minimum of two sharpened cutting blades; or
(f) a cross-bow having a draw-weight of no less than 36�6 kilograms, using a broad-head arrow having a minimum weight of no less than 25 grams and a minimum of two sharpened cutting blades.

Note: Fallow deer and Hog deer have a similar regulation except:
(a) a centre-fire rifle having a calibre of no less than 6�17 mm (0�243") with ammunition which has a cartridge case length of no less than 51 mm (2") and a projectile weight of no less than 5�51 grams (85 grains);

These regulations were instigated as people were attempting to hunt Sambar and deer in general with totally inappropriate rifles (22RF, 22Hornet, 30M1) on occasion with unsavoury and public results. There were politics involved but it was finally settled as above and has never really been changed. At the time (mid 70s from memory) the technology wasn't there to push shotguns as viable hunting arms for large game ... despite Cape Guns being used on buffalo in the Northern territory ... just too few people to argue the case for them. Now ... I feel its different with slug technology and gun technology fully upto the task.

There will be another conflict in that we have a Hog deer season that opens on the 1st April and is about 2 weeks after the Duck Season opening ... both occur on public land. Hog deer may be poached in opportunistic manner on the Duck Season opening (rare but thats of no concern to legislators) ... so a more 'range effective' shotgun may be seen as an increased potential for poaching of these deer. Its really a total non-issue as the day of the Duck Opening, most Hog Deer will go nocturnal STRAIGHT AWAY. But a duck shooter moving into place before first light may get the chance to roll one illegally. Duck hunters here by FAR use double guns ... given that we cant be trusted with semi or pump guns ... which our bikie gangs seem to be able to source.

What will be pushed is recognition of the WSSM cartrdiges which fail currently on length, and I'm pushing for recognition of shotguns with the inclusion of this following:

Twelve-gauge shotgun (fitted with a single 12guage barrel) using ammunition with a case length of no less than 69.85mm (2 ��) and using ammunition with a solid projectile of weight no less than 15.88grams (245gr). Shotgun must be fitted with rear and front sights and/or telescopic sights.

On a side note ... be careful what you guys push to legislators ... we've already seen one State of Australia look at my States law that allows 'large game' be hunted with a 270cal and 130gr projectile ... then look at Federal law that requires a 308Win with 150gr projectiles as suitable for culling of large invertebrates (including buffalo) ... then make the recommendation that no private firearms of over 30cal are necessary.

Cheers...
Con

I heard hunting with shotguns is gay.



I think using a slug for elk would be a fun hunt.

I grew up in upstate NY in an area where slugs were the only way to take deer, and not that that makes me an expert, but I do think this is a sound proposal:

"Twelve-gauge shotgun (fitted with a single 12guage barrel) using ammunition with a case length of no less than 69.85mm (2 ��) and using ammunition with a solid projectile of weight no less than 15.88grams (245gr). Shotgun must be fitted with rear and front sights and/or telescopic sights."

I would think that expanding the criteria to include 20 gauge loads would be a good thing (in part b/c Savage has a new awesome 20 gauge bolt gun w/Accutrigger, and that most of the guys I hunted with in NY moved to the 20 gauge b/c the guns and recoil were lighter than a comparable 12 gauge. A decreased effectiveness on game was not noted, FYI). 20 gauge slug loads should meet the 245 grain requirement. I would also recommend looking at what's commercially available in Australia in general and tempering the requirements with that info. It won't do any good to require something that isn't readily available.

I shot 5 deer with slugs before moving out west. Again, I don't pretend to be an expert but I do think they are a very viable way to kill deer and even elk, within the limits of their accuracy (and of course, the shooter's).

My $.02,
JV

Add language specifically allowing rifled barrels and chokes for shotguns to be used for big game. I'd concur on modifying the language to include 20 gauge shotguns. I'd suggest using the 230 grain weight single projectile language as that tracks the muzzleloader requirements. (Do you really want to have to discuss why a muzzleloader projectile must only be 230 grains but a shotgun projectile must weigh 245 grains?)I'd suggest more open language for optical sights so that it will clearly include non-magnifying type sights including aimpoints, holographic sights, non-magnifying telescopic sights etc.

Why again are you seeking to exclude double barrel guns? If someone is going to poach, by definition they are breaking game laws. Why would you restrict a legal hunter from using his double just because someone might poach a deer during the duck season? I have more or less the same question as to why you want to require sights. I suspect that if you have a shotgun only season that before long any person who is hunting the season will have a strong incentive to use a shotgun set up specifically for slug hunting. That has been the case in the US in "shotgun only" areas.

I have tried slugs in a side by side, could hit the requisite pie plate at 30 yards. I didn't use it for elk. I have carried a 12 single when going for grouse during elk season. Loaded a slug, figuring I can change the shell when I see the birds, but have an adequate black timber gun ready. Now my preference is a Savage 24 in 30-30 and 20 for that.

When I am really hunting elk, I use a rifle, you want the longer range if needed.

Are they red deer, related to our elk?

Any of you look at the hole a slug makes? There is no reason to think a shotgun won't work.

Con;
As we are not allowed to hunt elk with shotguns this link may well be less than useful for you.

That said, it does lay out the tools which can be used to kill our varied game species in a rather simple format which might make a decent template for your presentation.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlif...s/Hunting-TrappingSynopsis_1012Part1.pdf

Go to page 16 on the link to find the chart I'm speaking of.

Please note I'm not holding our system up as an example of perfection though, as you will note we can not hunt bison with anything less than a 175gr bullet, but it is legal to hunt an equal sized bull moose with a .17 Rem - or a grizzly which will kill and eat either one for breakfast.

Be that as it may, and it most certainly is, hopefully that was some use to you Con. All the best to you and yours this weekend.

Regards,
Dwayne

Thanks for your comments ... more to think about. I'll add the 20guage and indeed mirror the 45cal muzzle-loader weights, that's a god idea. I feel both guages are 'better' than the muzzle-loaders. Reason I never added rifled barrels/chokes is I've used purpose built smoothbores (Combo guns) and the accuracy is certainly there for 100 yard shots so I wanted to be inclusive of these 'purpose built aimed' shotguns. I suppose that's also why I discounted a straight double gun ... I seriously think it'd be viewed with enough negativity to 'sink the entire ship' so to speak. Over here they'd rather legislate (cheap option) than enforce (man hours/wages/costly) illegal behaviour.

Regarding our seasons ... Hog deer and Red deer have seasons during which any of the legal means may be employed. Sambar are year round during which any legal means may be used. The idea of 'muzzle-loader only', 'shotgun only' etc seasons would never be supported by hunters who are predominantly rifle users. We have about 22,000 licenced deer hunters in a population of about 4 million, we're pretty small fry compared to the United States but issues surrounding safety, animal welfare, land access etc... is rearing its head on a more regular basis. Animal welfare groups are also inceasingly vocal. We have the odd situation were deer (all introduced to Australia) are both looked at as 'game' on the one hand, but also as 'feral' animals to be eradicated on the other.
Cheers...
Con

Thanks for that Dwayne,
Likewise here ... a 32/40 is legal deer medicine ... but a 300Savage is not. Currently, a 243Win is legal, but a 25WSSM is not. Anomolies abound.
Cheers...
Con

Funny thing is, we who lived in the Adirondacks considered the "Shotgun Only" areas of New York the "Southern Tier."

I guess there's up state, and wayyyyy up state.

When I moved into the Southern Tier of NY I had an Ithaca 37 smooth bore that shot Fosters pretty good out to 75 yards or so.

But then one day I bought and tested a H&R 12 ga. with a 24" heavy rifled barrel. 385 grain partitions out of the Winchester Supreme loads shot into 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards easily and crossed the chrony at 1700 fps.

I've not shot an Elk with that load, but i bet they wouldn't like it too much.

Idaho's game caliber law is even worse. Here, we can hunt any big game with any centerfire. That's the only limitation. We can hunt bear or moose with a 40 gr varmint bullet in a .22 Hornet if we want to. Luckily, most hunters I know have a lot more sense and use guns adequate for the job.

I lived in southern Wisconsin most of life where slugs only were allowed.
My lessons learned after 50 years of deer hunting with slugs:

Out of a recoiling barrel (i.e. Browning Auto 5 type) accuracy for was awful, including their Buck Special model.
Finally bought a Remington 11-87 with cantilevered barrel (rifled) with a shotgun scope and using Saboted slugs groups were 2" at 100 yards.
I think any shotgun (auto or pump) so equipped would be adequate. Slugs are killers. I would go with 3' sabots.
V

Good luck with your project!

The state I live in (Oregon) has "No Centerfire Rifle" hunts for both elk and deer. They may also have shotgun only but I have never hunted in one. In these hunts shotguns, pistols and muzzleloading firearms are allowed. The muzzle loaders tend to be darn new.

www.dfw.state.or.us/

Above is the internet address for our Fish and Wildlife folks. It has the big game regulations and the firearms restrictions, definitions, etc. If you have trouble finding what you want in there PM me what you would like to read.

http://www.sos.state.or.us/archives/banners/rules.htm

-This site has the Administrative rules and some guidelines on how they are prepared.

http://www.oregonhunters.org/
- This is a state hunting organization that is active in developing legislation. They may be able to give you some help as well.

As to slugs effectiveness on elk sized game I do not know by personal experience. I have killed deer and bear with both 20 and 12 gauge Foster slugs and they worked fine for that. I have only recovered one slug and it had penetrated a small bear, come out and lodged in the rear paw pad after breaking the bones.

Based on reports from others for elk I would likely use Brenneke's or another hardened slug in a smoothbore. Without those reports to influence me I would have just used regular slugs as they penetrate very well. I suspect they would work.

In my rifled barrel there are many choices but I believe I would use the Winchester, Hornady Federal or Remington Sabots that use a bullet shaped projectile with an 1800+ muzzle velocity. The Winchesters performed best in my Ithaca. They extend the usable range to around 200 yards.

The places here where they require shotguns tend to offer extremely short range shots so I have always used my smooth bore Deerslayer barrels with Scout scopes.

I'm not sure how to limit Grandpa.

Con,
Ouch, pumps and semi auto shotguns are banned there, aren't they? Are bolt action shotguns legal or are you limited to break action shotguns? That really does leave you with combo guns or single shots, doesn't it? You couldn't very well use a combo gun in a shotgun only area or season either. That is quite a limitation.
I suggested specifically including rifled barrels and chokes to avoid the problem of perhaps inadvertently excluding rifled shotguns from use. Many modern slugs must be fired from a rifled barrel to be stable. Before rifled barrels became popular for deer hunting, rifled screw in chokes were a bridge that allowed a regular shotgun to achieve a significant upgrade in accuracy at ranges beyond 50 yards. It was sort of chicken or the egg. You didn't see many sabot type slug loads on shelves because you needed rifled barrels to get the results and you didn't see many rifled barrels because the ammo available didn't benefit greatly from then expensive rifled barrels. Rifled chokes are cheaper than barrels and allow the shotgun to be used with birdshot when it's not deer season.
You will want to review your firearms laws to ensure that rifled shotguns are permissible and maintain their legal status as shotguns. Oh, and make the point that rifling a shotgun barrel does not increase the range of the projectile (ie the potential impact area). Rifling only extends the range at which the projectile can be accurately placed.

Minnesota and Iowa also have slug only zones for deer and you could steal some language from their regs.

I use 2 3/4 sabot slugs and that is all that is needed. 3" are usually not as accurate, produce more recoil and have little value-added engergy in my viewpoint.

Aussies can also use the Chinese copy of the 1887 Winchester leveraction shotgun, although perhaps not for wildfowl. You see, that's so obscure that the legislators didn't know about it, although they DID know about pumps and autoloaders. I've read about some very wild things done to those implements, too. Aimpoints, rifle sights, etc, action jobs.....
Aussies are pretty good at making silk purses out of sow's ears, but it's a real struggle, which is why Con's work is valuable to his fellow hunters. They often operate under conditions that would make us throw up our hands and say "[bleep] it".

Amen to the 2 3/4 inchers.