how many guys have decided not to shoot, at an elk because they were afraid the rifle they were using either did not have the required flat trajectory or required accuracy to get a well placed hit?
EXAMPLE
about 12-14 years ago one of my hunting buddies sent in a 300wby to have the trigger repaired and by the time we were leaving on our hunt he had not gotten in back,he was really upset, but he wanted to go on the hunt he had paid for so he reluctantly borrowed my sako 375 H&H, I had him sight in at 3.5" high at 100 yards with 300 grain hornady boat tails ,about the 4th day of the hunt we were sitting under a large conifer watching the far canyon slope when a group of elk started trotting thru on that far slope at about 330-350 yards,(he said it was easily 400 yards but I had a range finder) he had the elk in his sights, he had a bi-pod and a good rest, but as I waited he didn,t fire, he was going to pass the shot as he was convinced it was too far for the rifle and caliber,he was using. I said shoot! and assured him it was well within effective range ,he said he had no really idea where to hold at that long range, I said just put the horizontal cross hair just barely into the hair in the spine at the shoulder and the vertical cross hair thru the front shoulder and squeeze off! when he fired the elk dropped almost instantly , he acted amazed, he said he always thought that he would have to hold a couple feet high with a slow velocity cartridge like a 375 H&H , as we walked over to the elk he kept telling me that even with his 300 mag and the 180 grain bullets he regularly used he would have held a bit high on a "400 yard shot"
(yes I chronograph the loads at 2589 fps average)

that and several similar events proved to me that most guys can,t judge range in the field and most don,t fully understand the rifles trajectory or why you sight in a bit high at 100 yards, and it proved to me the value of a compact optical range finder

http://www.hornady.com/store/375-Cal-.375-300-gr-BTSP/

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...;type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

Quite a few years ago while guiding a mule deer hunter I had a somewhat similar experience. The client was a guy who'd used magnums most of his life, but was getting tired the recoil. He bought a .30-06 and loaded it with some 180's, then sighted-in 3" high.

This was before laser rangefinders, but I'd been using my scope's reticle estimate ranges for years. We four a little bunch bedded down ont he far side of a draw. He asked how far it was and I said about 250 yards. He shot and the bullet went right over the deer's back, and they all took off, jumping a nearby fence onto a ranch where we couldn't follow.

I asked him where the hell he'd held, and he said just above the back-line. I asked him why he did that, and he said because everybody knows the .30-06 doesn't shoot very flat.

He hadn't shot the rifle at beyond 100 yards, and hadn't bothered to look at a trajectory table (this was also before most computer programs), so I had him shoot at a paper target at 250. He was absolutely astonished when the bullets landed within a couple inches of where he aimed!

I have not passed on shots for those reasons as I don't shoot that far, but I have passed on a lot of shots that I deemed were not practical because of the angle

I have always suspected that the guy that shoots prairie dogs or ground squirrels a few times a year has a tremendous edge in the big game hunting fields. Familiarity with trajectory, confidence in one's ability, all makes a huge difference.
This seems like a good time to bring up the article I read a few years ago by a well respected gun writer that was in Canada on a hunt for trophy elk. The deal was, if you drew blood, you were done hunting. The gun writer imposed a 300 yard limit on himself and if memory serves me well, ended up still killing a magnificent bull. It would be interesting to know what factors figured into his self imposed limit.

Fred

Last year I used a load borrowed from Mule Deer, for the .375 H&H, a 260 gr Nosler Accubond at a modest 2620 fps. The RL-15 made for a very accurate load, and I had it sighted-in at 200 yards.

Stalked to 306 yards (lasers are wonderful) of a feeding black bear, held about 9" high from my intended point of impact, and one shot did the job - about as neat and easy as can be.

In 2009 my .25-06 reached out and took a Wyoming mulie at 400 yards, holding on hair. Used a 300 yard zero with the Berger 115, and no problem at all.

Some folks just need to shoot more. Sight in a good load, and put some rounds downrange. Given an accurate rifle & load, it's just not that tough to handle a 300 - 400 yard shot.

I have passed on shots when I wasn't stable enough in my shooting position for accurate shooting. Absolutely. If I don't think I can make the shot, I don't send the bullet downrange.

Regards, Guy

while Id prefer my 340wby as an elk rifle I could easily use a 338 win mag,8mm rem mag, 35 whelen 9.3/62 mm 375 ruger or 375 H&H for the rest of my life and never feel I was at any real dis-advantage hunting elk

The only times I've not taken a shot is because I didn't feel I was up to making the shot. Usually a poor shooting position or bad, erratic wind, etc. The simple rifle and loads I use are all capable of making shots well beyond my abilities.
Next time that happens, have him "check his sights" at a rock a time or two out here in the distance. E

Working for an Outfitter, guiding, your more likely to be hunting a fixed area and place your hunters where they are going to be shooting within range elk.
The very last thing you want to do is move elk around on private land or public land honey-holes.

Hunting myself, exploring a new area, I try to find areas that I can cover the most ground and get an understanding of the elk in that area.
My heart does not thump against my rib-cage as much when I have elk in the scope that look like little specks of moving rocks.

I picked up a Ziess Conquest, Z-600* just for this.
The ranging function is fantastic. The post above the cross-hairs is 6" at 100 yards. If the brisket - withers is taller then the post, game on. Smaller, too far, and option time.

I love hunting the fringes of more open areas, and have passed on a lot of shots.

*I have never done better on-line business then dealing with Camera Land, a site sponsor. We all hear it, it's true. Their fantastic to deal with!

Can't say I have ever not fired due to those circumstances.

I have held fire becuase of confidence limitations in my particular rifle. Specifically a shot I passed while carrying my old Sav 99 in 300 Sav. It just isn't very accurate past 200 or so yards. My confidence with it out there is worse than none.

It was a shot I wouldn't have thought twice about had I been carrying my .270 or .340 Wby.

I passed on a 400 yard shot just a month ago in Colorado. There were about 2 dozen elk feeding accros a canyon from me but the crosswind was STIFF! with 20" of drop and 30" of hold in-to....I passed for a better day.

It's not a well-reasoned question. The second part of it--the "required accuracy" is especially puzzling. Why would you even take a rifle hunting if the bullets don't go where you want them to? How did a rifle that lacks the "required accuracy" even make it out of the truck?

As for the "required flat trajectory," all rifles lob them in on some arc. It's just knowing your drop table. It seems strange that someone would wait until they had an elk in their sights to suddenly, for the first time, think that their rifle can't make the shot. If the rifle zeroed and grouped OK when sighted in, then the rifle can make the shot--maybe the shooter can't make the shot, but the rifle is fine.

Other than the "friend borrowing the rifle" scenario described above, I can't think of a situation where anyone would do that. And that's different than when you, the shooter, decide that you can't make a particular shot due to distance, wind, or lack of a steady rest.

I have past on shots because of wind, or cover, or not having a spotter, or the animal was moving, etc... Never because of an inaccurate rifle.

I did have a buddy last year that borrowed my rifle because his was not set up for shooting at a distance. I think if I had not been there he would have passed, on that shot, but then again he might have tried anyways.

I can see your point for ballistics, but the problem with these guys and treestand hunters is actually getting the shot off.

I'm pretty finicky about knowing where my guns shoot. I don't have faith in charts. No matter who made them. I'm lucky to have a local range that has targets out to 500yds. Not that i'd take that long of a shot, but I might be tempted for 400yds if conditions were perfect. I don't borrow guns, and I don't hunt my own guns without lots of testing.

The only thing that will stop me from taking a shot is strong crosswinds.

I think the example in the OP's post is the guy had his gun worked on too close to hunting season. My guns are ready to go months before season starts. The most crowded day at the range is the day before hunting season starts. Ridiculous! That had all year to prepare.

I passed on a 175 yard shot this year witha muzzle loader. I knew when I started the hunt that 100 yards was pretty much the limitation of the gun I was shooting. I have also passed on shots when I was carrying a Model 94 in 30-03 and Model 94 in 44 mag.
Kind of a rediculus question. Waders pointed out accuracy wise,but any gun has some distance limitations whether it be handgun or some rifle equipped to take game out to a 1000 yards. Sooner or later one has to say the animal is too far.

There have been many times I decided not to shoot. sometimes the reason was the rifle in hand, most times there were other reasons including my own limitations. More than a few times it was simply because I didn't want to ruin an otherwise perfectly good hunt with a lot of hard work.

yeah! as I got older and a bit smarter (now past 60) I tend to think a good deal more about how I,m going to get a dead elk OUT of some canyon BEFORE I shoot rather than after I shoot, Like I usually did in my 20s-30s I,ve spend many years hunting this and surrounding drainage s
become rather used to hunting canyons like this and resigned to the fact that once you shoot your going to spend several days packing out meat in 66-75 lb loads (about the max I know from long experience I can reasonably transport in a back pack)

The only way i'd shoot an elk there is if my Jeep was parked at the bottom. Otherwise, I wouldn't even be hunting there.

Been there, done that. No more for this old man.

I'm with Mauser Hunter - I hate packing uphill.

Last year was my first elk hunt. Having spent my entire adult life in Virgina, in an area where the sea level is 28 feet. I was about 7300 feet up on a mountain opening day of first rifle, on my knees coughing up a lung when my guide asked me if I could hit an elk at 700 yards. It didn't get any better as the week wore on. I had the shots, but my pulse just would'nt let me pull the trigger at extended range with no wind. I had practiced all year on long shots, the rifle could do it, but I hadn't prepared. I've read countless articles of clients who couldn't run those last 100 yards and make the shot on a monster bull. In my 20's and 30's I just shook my head. Then it happened to me in my 50's. Then I understood. This year I prepared. It wasn't needed.

You found elk at a low 7300 ft? What time of the year was that?

Mid October I believe. 13-17th?

I wish they'd do that where I live. I live next to the winter range, and it's 8000ft. They aren't here until Dec at the earliest.

That's the problem right there......

One memorable time,I passed on a big bull elk at 550-600 yards not because of distance, but because of a very strong full value wind. I "knew" the bullet would be drifted but was unwilling to gamble on how much.I also knew, comparing the bull with reticle subtension of the scope, that I was dealing with 550-600 yards.

Funny thing is this all occured back in the pre LRF days,and the scope was a lowly 4x28 Leupold;the rifle a long throat 300 Win Mag that started a 180 NPT at 3140 fps.

I "knew" through extensive range time,that,zeroed exactly 3" high @100 yards, the rifle struck POA at 300 yards.And the load was down 48" at 600,which coincidentally, was exactly where the bottom point of the Duplex reticle rested at 600 yards.

I also knew the load was down about 10" at 400 yards,and about 25" at 500. I had used this "knowledge" to kill a couple of bulls at the 450-500 yard mark previously.

By the time I made my first western hunt many years ago,I had shot a hundreds of eastern woodchucks with everything from a 222 and 220 Swift to a 7 Rem Mag;not to mention a few thousand rounds at our local range at 200 to 600 yards.So,on my first antelope,after we made a very educated guess as to distance,again using the scope reticle,a sliver of daylight resulted in a center chest hit with the 270 that dropped him where he stood.No I wasn't "guessing"....

My 375H&H is zeroed 3" high with a 250 Sierra and 250 BBC @2900+fps;it is 5" low and 300 and 14" low at 400.This is about what you get with a 270 Winchester and 150 gr bullet, or a 30/06 with 165's, the reason I scratch my head when people tell me the 375H&H has a trajectory like lobbing watermelons underhanded.Fact of the matter is that load will stay with a 338 or 340 Weatherby to 400-500 yards...we know because we have shot them side by side.

Killing with such outfits to 400 or so yards should be easy for anyone who has put in the range time to figure out this very simple stuff....and "no" you aren't holding in "thin air", and "guessing" as the turret boys like to tell you.On any Leupold fixed 4X or 6X,or any variable with a Duplex reticle,with a flat shooting rifle, you have the tool to kill even to 500 yards, if you know how to use it.

These days, dotz make it even easier.Using the 6x36 Leupold and LR reticle at 600 yards,I notice the horizontal crosshair is kinda hangin exactly where it did for me in relation to the bottom post, years back......nothing is really "new",and gravity is constant.

But you do have to shoot to figure this stuff out,and many simply do not do the range time and round count required to make this intuitive in the field.

Bob
What seems odd to me is how many people buy the latest rifle, scope, bullet and laser range finder, then never shoot them past 100 yards, where they measure the groups to the nearest 0.001 inch.
Shooting at 300 yards will tell you lots more about how the trajectory of a load matches up to the theoretical drop, and whether or not that rifle/load combo holds it's accuracy at longer range. Some rifle are very accurate at 100 yards but the groups go to hell at 300 yards. Could be a scope issue, bullet issue, who knows why, but I darn sure want to know "if".
I am a little less than overwhelmed by the scopes with the dots and gee-jaws because on the two I have, the parallax at 300 yards is about half the distance between the 200 and the 300 yard dots.
Fred

Another great post. I love your writing style Bob....Keep up the good work..

I just got back from eastern Idaho and hit over 7,000 feet on foot several times. The elk were still above me. Snow was hard packed so very difficult to hike uphill in! I did not connect.

I have passed up numerous shots because of presentation and distance probably distance more than presentation.

I shoot a 300 win mag and consider 300 yards in good conditions a slam dunk, and 400 starting to stretch it a bit. A BDC reticle scope is going to fix this problem. Bob very nice post

I'll pass up on elk because of the shot, or because of the yardage. But anymore, I pass up on elk at times because I'm not sure how I'll be able to get it out... due to the time I have available, because I am by myself, or because I don't want to deal with or rent mules or horses.

Everyone talks about these 300-400yard shots. I must hunt in some darn different country. I can only remember three times where I have shot anywhere near that distance. Even on pronghorn hunts. I admit my memory isn't all that good,but it is not completely gone either.

I have never sighted in any rifle other than dead on at 100yards. I do carry some 180 gr Sierras that print about 2" higher than my 220gr RN though, but have ony used them but once in many years and that ended up a 60 yard shot.

I do find myself putting the safety back on a bit more often nowdays, but if I see an elk at 600 yards and cannot get to it, I usually go find another one.

saddlesore]Everyone talks about these 300-400yard shots. I must hunt in some darn different country. I can only remember three times where I have shot anywhere near that distance. Even on pronghorn hunts. I admit my memory isn't all that good,but it is not completely gone either.
The last few elk I have killed have been GPS verified at 300, 320, 420, 150, 410, farther back is fairly similar. Closest ever was 17 and farthest has been 420. I hunt in Wyoming, Idaho, and Eastern Oregon. Mostly mountainous with lots of side drainages and openings.

Been still hunting timber all my life. 200yds is a long long shot for me. Few enough of them for me to count on one hand.

Getting close is my challenge.

OK I passed on a elk this year at right around 400 yards. I normaly bowhunt elk and rifle hunt deer. I live in Oregon and have only shot I think one deer at 200 yards. I can live with passing that shot better than screwing up. I am not used to those distances and been spending time at the 300 yard range and some shooting in the woods at that distance. I will say this if I ever go back to CO I will spend time shooting at 400 yards but its not something that I normaly do. If lived out there you bet I would be more familiar with those kind of ranges. Does that make me a bad I have no guilt problems passing up that bull. Plus he was walking.

You don't need to take long shots here. I never do, and my percentage of kills is way above average.

Elk are in timber way longer than in the open.

I passed up a shot at a herd bull in NM due to shot presentation. He was behind his cows, turned and walkedstraight away as the cows split and I has his tail in the cross hairs. First day of the hunt, 60-70yrds in the timber, 300wm 180grn interlock. It haunts me, but I've realized that I've shot a lot of game and if I was comfortable with the shot, the trigger would have been tripped. I ended up skunked on the trip.

I wasn't mentally prepared to shoot a herd bull #1 in the head as he was walking in or #2 in the butt as he was going away. Looking back either would have worked more than likely.

Where is "here"?

Unit 481 and 55. Sometimes 49.

Nice...but I didn't mean for you to be even that specific. I grew up hunting 70, 71 and 61. It's probably the same in your units, but there are a lot of animals to be had at all elevations and in all sorts of terrain. However, I sort of took a liking to the meat from elk harvested in the later seasons, a bit after the rut. That means that I'm hunting country that is either in the junipers or open toward the wintering grounds, unless I wanted to hunt on snowmobiles, which I do not. There are a lot more opportunities for longer shots in those areas. And hey, those animals need to be thinned out too, right?

Later

I've been hunting the muzzleloader season. Which meant up at treeline. I'm going to go for 1st rifle elk next year, and see if I can hunt a bit lower. Hopefully, the weather won't beat me up too bad.

Then I hunt 2nd season for muley's. Sometimes private property in late season if I didn't get an elk yet.

I wouldn't want to hunting this week. Wind chill was -30 yesterday. A bit chilly for me.

I hear ya there. My brother shot a 4th season cow elk once. I hung my sweaty coat in a tree to help him with it. When I put it back on, it was frozen stiff. That was invigoratin'.

Those early seasons are a blast. The prettiest bull I ever took was with a muzzle loader back before the in-line stuff. But, I really hate dealing with the meat that time of year. Between the flies, warm weather and such, it can be a real headache. Plus, I like to process the meat myself. So, that adds to the headache without a real cool place to hang it for awhile.

I still really like to hunt during archery season. I say hunt...it's more like I just like to play with the elk, enjoy the nose bleed country and see the views. The last 2 years, I haven't been able to let an arrow fly at an elk just because of that. Honestly, it was a bit of a questionable shot because I wasn't sure I could snake an arrow below a branch about mid-way on a nice 6 broadside at about 45 yds....a bit silly, they say I am. It's not like I can't shoot my bow a little, because I did score a turkey and ptarmigan.

Later.

I passed on a shot at a White Tail last Saturday. I spotted him walking in to my stand and all I could see was the tail and a little bit of the flank. I had the scope on him and I though I could do this with out making a mess, just hold above the tail and send a bullet into his neck. The only problem was I couldn't see the neck part. So I held off. The distance would have been a long shot for my neck of the woods. About 180 yards give or take some. This week so far has been terrible. temps in the 60's and its been raining steady for two days. The upside is that I had some venison burgers with my neighbors on Saturday. Good Eats!

I can't say it was the rifle.

I have some personally imposed limits but it ain't the rifles fault.

I have gotten over waiting for bull elk to give me a clear shot...and if I can do anything but shoot them in the guts or rump I go for it assuming I am within range, have good position, etc.

Bearclaws and Partitions have made some of those changes possible.

I passed up a shot that I never expected I would.

That year my shooting club had set up a target at 450 yds and I practiced until I was confident at hitting it.
As fate would have it that season I had a shot opportunity on a cow at just about that distance.

I had conflicting thoughts. The overriding one being �Don�t do it!� while another voice in my head said �What about all the time you spent practicing that exact shot?�

I tried to get closer but I was too slow and they escaped.

No regrets.
To my way of thinking you never lose by passing on a shot, but if you cripple something then you carry that weight forever.

Never. At least for that reason.

"He was absolutely astonished when the bullets landed within a couple inches of where he aimed!" Mule Deer...

I've passed on many shots carrying my 30-30 but had a similiar experience when I started using the LeverEvolution round. I knew my point blank range was in the neighborhood of 250 yards but had a memory lapse on a 3x3. He ranged 187 yards so I held on his spine as if I were shooting regular 170 grain flatpoints. Stupid me! The buck dropped where he stood and when I got to him I realized the round hit right where I aimed. Broke his spine. Poor guy was bawling and I had to put one behind the ear to dispatch him. Learned my lesson about knowing ones trajectory!

yep- happened this yr . 06 180 grain corelok- new t/c venture sighted in for 3 in high at 100 so pbr like 325 huge 6x6 /350 classs bull in open meadow - at 500 + yrds = I say + because my rangefinder wouldn't pick him up accurately - scope 4x nikon - just could not squeese the trigger -- guess'n hold over never an option for me -

I do not think even a solid rest or tripod would have changed my mind -

Sorry to butt in with a deer hunt instead of an elk hunt but it is the same subject.

On October 1, 2012 I was up on the hill at dark thirty to poke a hole in some poor defenseless creature with antlers. I had been glassing with my wonderful Nikon 7-15X35 when I found something. I turned the setting from 7X up to 15X and tried to get a stable platform from which to really scope out what I thought was deer. Finally I made them but they were heading back into the woods.

Right then I decided to get some fixed power binoculars so I had to verify with the rifle scope and save some valueable time. Finally I did switche to the Savage .223 which had been rebarreled and chambered to .257 Weatherby (I just can�t seem to leave anything alone.) when I realized I was waisting killing time. I got behind the Bushnell 4200 4-16X and turned it up to 16X. I could see quite easily that one was a buck. The horns were somewhat odd forks. On one side the fork was about ear high while the other side was about twice as high as the ears. I had no idea how far they were, but guessed at least a quarter mile away. I didn�t bring the Leica 1200 because I figured I would be in the woods all the time. That won�t happen again.

The rifle came back from the funsmith on Thursday two days prior to opening day. There was only enough time to get a near maximum load that would work through the action freely on Thursday. On Friday I sighted it in about 2� high at 100 yards before I had to get back to the house for other chores. Normally I sight in at 300 yards. Then I fire at rocks clear out to 500 yards. But this time it didn�t happen. I had no idea where the Barnes 100 TTSXes would hit past about 300 with the near 3,700 feet per second load.

I decided to try to get closer. When I was within a couple hundred yards I had to get out in the opening and slide down the hill to get around some bushes to get a shot. The buck was already in the forest, but a doe was extremely curious what I was or was doing and started to take a couple steps my way before the absence of the other deer convinced it to leave also.

All this is to say I didn�t take a shot I would take in a moment if I knew the trajectory of the bullet like I now do with it zeroed at 300 yards.

Awesome. Glassing with your scope.. in 2012 of all years.

You, seriously, are the most bent individual on this site, and there's some real loons here.

That extra 1X the scope offered over the binos allowed him to tell it was a buck. And that was after this:

Rancho_Loco,

Tell us you have never scoped a game animal without shooting at it. Go ahead. We're waiting.

pointer,

Maybe you can kill something with your 15X binos but I need a firearm to kill something. I finally decided I didn't know the trajectory at that range and moved closer. I guess you didn't get that from the post.

Now I use a fixed 8X bino and switch to the scope as soon as I know it is game.

Gentlemen, let's not continue to hijack this thread.

I have NEVER glassed with my riflescope.

I have looked at plenty of critters with my spotter, binos and/or RF without going to the rifle.

I've also put my crosshairs on critters without shooting, but not because I needed what I thought was a better look. I knew what my target was, and was ready to kill it. I've never put my scope on a critter because I didn't know what it was.

Only idiots do that.

And you are a huge idiot, and the craziest assclown on this website.

Tell us which was safer: You looking at something through your scope and not shooting or me looking at something through my scope and not shooting?

Your inability to understand the difference is not surprising.

Seek help.

DFTFT

Please help.
What is the difference in you looking at a animal through your scope and not shooting and me looking at an animal through my scope and not shooting? I am curious, no extremely curious.