If the .243 is an Elk killing machine with 95 grain bullets,why wouldn't the .223 with 60-62 grain Nosler and Barnes not be also?

62 grain .223 Federal Fusions penetrate 15" in ballistic gel and I would expect the Nosler and Barnes to go farther.

So why not the .223 for Elk or is the .243 the lowest caliber lethal to Elk without a head shot?

Jayco

Why not. Shoot an elk in the lungs,with a good bullet. It stumbles off 100 yards and dies.

because it is illegal in WY to use a caliber smaller than 243 for big game

I knew guys who would fill cow tags with a .223. Opening morning, head shot at under 100 yards.

Even though I disagree with using a 223 for elk, if the 223 were legal for elk in a state and one wanted that challenge, then I would have no reason not to support it.

Don't stop with elk. Go kill a water buffalo.

I realize in some States it is not legal but the huge advance in bullet technology has upped smaller calibers lethal too,several notches from back when.

If a mediocre .223 bullet will penetrate 15" in ballistic gel and expand to .54 caliber,then a well placed shot with a .223 and premium type bullets,should be an Elk killer,just like a 95 grain .243 bullet...Right?

I don't know how many of you guys have been in on penetration test in ballistic gel,but 15" isn't all that bad compared to even some 45-70 jacketed bullets.....Like 3" shy of the 400 grain Swift A-Frame tested by Rick Jamison!

Jayco

Its illegal.......

But, if it weren't, I still think that its not appropriate regardless of whether it would work or not. I don't know of anyone who drives railroad spikes with framing hammers. I don't know why anyone would insist on using the smallest caliber possible when there are so many other choices that provide a larger margin of error.

I dont see why one would find it necessary, or even ethical to use such a teeny tiny gun/bullet for such a big strong, tough animal. This type of thread comes up quite often, and honestly it kind of lights a fire under me. I truly do not see the point of wanting to shoot the smallest caliber to take one of the strongets animals in North America, or in general.

Okay..The difference between the .243 and .223/.224 is .019 in diameter....

Federal Fusion .243/95 grain Fusion is 2980 fps.

Black Hills .223/62 grain TSX is ......3100 fps.

So why will the .243 kill Elk just fine and the .223 won't?My bet is the 62 grain .223/.224 TSX will penetrate as far as the 95 grain/.243 Fusion..Could be wrong and correct me if you have seen different.

I am curious why some may think the .243 is an Elk killing machine and the .223 isn't or can't be atleast equal with todays bullets and loads other than that huge .019 difference in diameter out of the muzzle.

Jayco

Maybe some of us who think the .223 is lousy for elk. Think the same thing about the .243.

The absolute smallest rifle I would shoot for a elk is a 25-06/257 wby. That is becaue I have seen first hand the 100 TTSX on a elk. It would not be my first choice (first would be my 300wsm).

REFERENCE
reference
1. CEN TERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold a maximum of six rounds in the magazine
and chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh minimum 70 grains for deer,
pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact
energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small-game mammals or furbearers with a
centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons
west of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A
small-game, furbearer or unfilled big-game license is required.
2. FULLY AU TOMATIC

Here's one reason.This is from the Colorado Reg.

I am always interested in other States regs.Thanks,Gravestone,I didn't know that about Colorado...

Not the case in Idaho though, nor am I pushing the .223 for Elk...

Jayco

Your welcome. Not sure but i believe most elk inhabited states have a 243 min. requirement. I guess that's way the question of Elk with a 243 is asked on the forums.

The short bus must be closed today being it is Presidents Day?

Why is it people want to shoot big game with a 223. And the people who have them all want a fast twist barrel so they can shoot 60-70 grain bullets. If you want to play with the big boys grow some stones and get a bigger gun. Would you use a tack hammer to pound in a pole barn spike...The same applies with your firearms. Use the right tool for the job.

Idaho's says on page 67 of the hunting regs:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov
Big Game Rules
67
Weapon Restrictions
Rifle and Shotgun
In any hunt, including any-weapon seasons, it is unlawful to
pursue or kill big game animals:
� By any means other than approved firearms,
muzzleloaders and archery methods.
� With any electronic device attached to, or incorporated
on, the firearm or scope; Except scopes containing
battery powered or tritium lighted reticles are allowed.
� With any firearm that, in combination with a scope, sling
and/or any attachments, weighs more than 16 pounds.
� With any fully automatic firearm.
� With any shotgun using shot smaller than #00 buck.
� With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzleloading
handgun, except for mountain lions.


Jayco

Must be more than that? What's an approved rifle?

You can't even use a .223 on deer here. Let alone elk.

You could legally shoot an elk (or moose) in ID and/or MT with a .17 Hornet. I wouldn't try it, though I solidly believe 22 centerfires are fine for deer. Elk, I'd be on the fence till I saw it happen a few times.

I am pretty sure Scenar killed a big bull with a 220 Swift, but believe it was a target of opportunity for him while predator hunting, not elk hunting.

seems obvious to me ; what is more important to the user ?
your ego or respect for the animal...easy choice for me.

I think that you .223 guys should go hunt Elephants and Cape Buffalo with your little bullets too. Your all nuts!

In the eyes of the IDFG, an "approved" firearms is just what is typed. Under 16 pounds with all attachments and ammo, cannot be fully automatic, must use 'oo' buck or bigger, no muzzleloading pistol or rimfires with the exception of mountain lions.

Believe it or not, that's it. logcutter had no typo's

First mountain lion I killed was with with my 280. They are commonly shot out of trees range best measured in feet, with .22 rimfires to keep the thin pelt damage to a minimal.

I'm sure if it were legal here I could turn live elk into dead elk with a .223. That doesn't mean I consider it an ideal or even wise choice nor is it something I would recommend to anyone else.

The main thing, at least here, is that elk season is short, 3 - 7 days depending on the tag, and while it's possible to find a situation where a .223 will be just fine, you may not encounter that situation as often as times when something like a .338 will do the job w/o apology.

I haven't reached the point in my elk shooting career where I'd rather wait 10 extra years to get one with a .223 than get one right now with a .338.

Tom

Would a .223 work maybe, my minimum is a 270 winchester. Not because of experience of mine though. I just think that is as far as I am willing to go down in caliber.

If the guy behind the trigger can put the animal down with 223 then why not? Who am I to tell them otherwise? If I was in the field with a 223 and an elk presented itself for I shot I wouldn't hesitate to put one through its neck. I'm willing to bet a shot behind the shoulder with a decent bullet would put them down in short order too.

There are videos on YouTube of guys culling redstags and rusa deer with 204's and 223's. Head and neck shots.

I agree wholeheartedly. I want a cartridge and bullet that will reach the vitals of an elk from any angle at reasonable yardage. Perfect shots don't always present themselves, bullets don't always go right where intended and critters have the tendency to move during the shot process.

everyone should be limited to the 22 Hornet for hunting all big game. and nothing smaller than 06 for squirrels.that would teach the impotance if stalking for elk and accurcy for head shots on squirrels or you dont eat.

Montana does not have any caliber restrictions for big game hunting. It would not be illegal to shoot an elk with a .22 rimfire here.

When I hunted Caribou and Musk ox in northern Canada, my Eskimo guide hunted with a .223. He told me he had even killed a Polar bear with his .223, but he had to shoot it 3 times.

The smallest caliber that I have shot elk with is .25, my .257 AI, and it was probably the quickest elk kill that I have made. However, I did kill a black bear with a .223.

I have several friends that have killed a pile of elk and several buffalo with their .22-250s. When Scenearshooter lived here he killed just about everything with his .220 Swift. Critters must be tougher up north, eh Pat?

But these guys are all excellent shooters, have been hunting all of their lives, and don't shoot at animals standing in the next zip code.

If I was in elk and only had a .223 Rem, I'd figure out how to kill one.

I think you meant centerfire...correct?

African lion.

Huh?

Hey Logcutter, if you can't shoot an elk rifle, don't go elk hunting.Simple huh? Magnum Man

To me, the question is not can you, but why would you want to? I mean if a guy was really good, why not run them down, tackle them and then beat them to death with only your fists? I would be sick if I stuck a .223 in a giant and he turned and walked away just to die without being found. I guess I just don't get it. Why flirt with it? It'd be hard to forget about it if you wounded a big elk knowing good and well that you could/should have been shooting something bigger. It's been done, so the answer is yes, you CAN kill one with that caliber, but really? Why?

If all I had was a rock, I'd figure out how to kill an elk with it..

Probably, but no one here who has a .223. Has to kill an elk.

*** You are ignoring this user ***
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Who cares?

Sissy.

Seems like "Why?" keeps coming up...

I haven't hunted elk with a 223, but I have with a bow.

I could sure kill him from further and from more angles with the .223 and a good bullet.

Maybe some guys enjoy the challenge of using something where you have to get closer and pick shots more carefully - kind of a half way point between bow hunting and running a 300WSM and 180 TTSX (which is probably what I'd use rifle hunting elk, FWIW).

I don't hear the outrage about bow hunting, but the .223 sure stirs it up.

Frankly, having lots of children who hunt has given me a greater appreciation of what the little round can do, and I have zero doubt I could kill an elk with one very ethically and without much drama if I needed to.

In fact, I think it would be easy enough that I wouldn't see it as adding much challenge, which is why I liked trying it with a bow - but am not real interested in going the .223 route - but I wouldn't be sore at a guy who wanted to run the .223 or a pistol or a bow if he did it to make the hunt more challenging and conducted his hunt accordingly.

DJ

Nobody bitches about the effectiveness of an arrow - which is behind that of a .223 from a rifle.

Personally I am waiting for the thread to migrate to Elk and the 17 Fireball...or maybe the new 17 Ackley Hornet...

Because Craig Boddington and Jack Atcheson say the .338 is king. Jayco, did you know that Boddington swears by the Hummer H-2 also? That's all I need to know, I'm gonna git one today!!!

Well if your a local and it is legal, go for it. I personally would not travel for two days, spend a lot of money and have my hunt hinge on a 223.

You could AI it. Turns a mouse gun into a moose gun.

I have no doubt that the 223, coupled with the right bullet could kill an elk cleanly. But like Viking said, if I were to travel out west for an elk hunt, I would bring my 300wm. If I wanted to go light, I'd have my 7mm-08.

You better get off that cactus juice and get realistic if you are going elk hunting. .223 ha!ha!!!!!!!!!!

I find your comments to be very wise and I agree %100.

This thread is a joke....Jayco is playing with you guys..

Now Bob...I already gave reasons why, if the .243 is an Elk gun then the .223 should be also.I gave penetration test in ballistic Gel where a mediocre Federal Fusion out of a .223 penetrated 15" in ballistic Gel. If you know your Gel and how other Elk calibers penetrate in it,15" is about maybe average.

I also stated that if the 95 grain Fusion(type bullet) out of a .243 @ 2980 fps is an Elk slayer,then a 62 grain TSX @ 3100 fps in .224 should atleast be equal with only .019 difference in diameter.

I have personally seen Elk killed with a 22-250 so I stepped it up a notch and acquired not just one,but two .223 rifles..There light weight/easy to carry/hardly any recoil at all and plinking ammo is not worth reloading since it is so inexpensive.

So Bob..Tell me why a .223/.224 is not an Elk rifle if the .243 is,as so many say, and yes,I have seen Elk killed with the mighty .243?

I doubt anyone can say either cannot kill Elk since the .223 is like famous here in Idaho since we heard how well it works on Polar Bears by local tribesmen in AK,not even our Idaho elk are that tough.

Jayco

Five Federal Fusions picked out of ballistic gel out of the .223 measured at 15" penetration depth at "100 yards" not in someones basement...The 45-70 400 grain Swift A-Frame only did 18".

Not a bad looking bullet with some very nice cutting edges.



Jayco

Good deal if you're hunting ballistic gel.

Any bones in that gel?

Richard Mann,one of the NRA's contracted experts, helped develop the Bullet Test tube. (It�s slightly harder material than the gelatin used in Federal�s test.) Mann tested Federal�s loads in it and on deer, and here�s what he found:

When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.�

We all know the 30-30 Winchester has killed a boat load of Elk and most other game and when the .223 penetrates equally with a well constructed bullet,within it's range and a well placed shot,I see no problem using it on Elk,just like the famed .243.

Jayco

I would wager that your little fed. fusions may not even make it through a rib bone or at least be deflected. I just have always liked to use the correct tool for any job that I do. I also bet that your little bullets don't provide much of a blood trail. I hope your a good tracker. Daryl.

You remind me of some fly fisherman I know. They insist on using the lightest tippets (end of leader) for very big fish. What happens is they can't put any real pressure on the fish, or the tippet will break. They also use very light fly rods, and again they can't put any pressure on the fish. So, all they can do is slowly play the fish until it's exhausted.
Now, keep in mind these are catch and release fisherman who claim to care for the fish. They're also fishing Gold Medal waters that are always catch and release. The point being to not kill the fish.
They finally land the exhausted trout on their tiny .223 size fishing gear, and hold up their prize bragging how they did it on small gear. Then they finally put the trout back in the water trying to revive it. It may slowly swim away, but it's dead. It went off by itself to die.
I ask them why they do it. They say because it fun and a challenge. The truth is they just want to brag about it, and could care less about killing the fish.

I feel someone who shoots a small caliber for big game is doing the same thing. Just something to brag about with no regard for the animal.

As was already said. You want to hunt elk? Buy an elk gun. Surely you can handle more than 3 lbs of recoil?

So, are you trying to make the case that a 60-grain .223 bullet penetrating 15 inches in a ballistic medium is the same as a .50 caliber 450 grain bullet penetrating 15 inches in the same medium?

Don't take me wrong,I am far from saying the .223 is an Elk caliber.Just saying like the .243 thread,it is capable of getting the job done if all the marbles lined up correctly and you use a top of the line bullet for the job.

What I am saying is,when the .243 is touted as being an Elk slayer then the .223/.224 is one also.It is on par in penetration and only lacking .019 in diameter before expansion and carries a higher velocity.

Out of all the rifles I have used on Elk,the .300 Win Mag continues to be my personal favorite with the .270 and '06 right on it's heals.

Jayco

A .243 is the bottom of the barrel for elk for most of us. You want to go below that? Makes no sense.

I would never consider a .243 for elk. A .223 is laughable for me. I don't care how many polar bears it's killed.

Yes,if the 450 grain is unexpanded because the 62 grain Federal Fusion expanded to .54 caliber.If your 450 grain expands,then of course not and remember,that expansion and penetration was at 100 yards not 25.

The case I am trying to make is when using a bullet like the TSX out of the .223 at 3100 fps(factory ammo) it is capable of taking Elk,certainly not my first choice,but like the 243 and 30-30 that it is on par with in penetration on game,certainly enough if the nut behind the wheel does his part.

Jayco

Bottom line Logcutter. Would you use a .223 for elk?

That's cheating.

If I was wolf hunting and elk season was open and all I had was my .223,yes if it was a short(within 100 yards) broadside shot with the elk not spooked and I had either Nosler or TSX's in the tube.

Would I go Elk hunting with a .223..Not in this lifetime unless were invaded by a foreign country.

Jayco

That's cheating too.

Why would you be carrying a .223, and hunting wolves in elk season?

I guess I am missing the point.

Jayco, your logic is irrefutable....no doubt it "can be done".......but......

You ain't suckin' me into this one....

You can tell we are between big game hunting season

+1

No, I didn't.

To quote from the 2011 Montana Deer, Elk, Antelope regulations, page 7:

"Methods of Hunting
Firearms
General Season
There is no rifle or handgun caliber limitation for the taking of big game animals."

The same exact wording in also written on page 10 of the 2011 Montana Moose, Sheep, Goat Regulations.

I'm not advocating it, I'm just reporting what is written.

Damn, I never would have guessed that. Page 10 specifies no caliber limitations, but says nothing about centerfire vs rimfire.

I read the entire regs though to see if any more info was available concerning CF and RF. You're right: a 22 rimfire is legal. Crazy.

Indian, not the arrow. Good enough statement for me.

Just think, years and years ago, there were no rules, folks used what worked and within its parameters and did just fine. Somewhere someone decided we needed more and more rules and regs, evidently for idiots that came along somewhere along the line...

Along those lines I"d bet that more than a few elk were tipped wtih 32-20 and 25-20 over the years.

Since I know my limitations and the limitations of the given cartridge I choose, I think its no one elses business. But then again I do have ethics...

So Mauser, where do you draw the line caliber wise and WHY?

Colorado says nothing smaller than a .243. I guess i'll go along with that, but personally. A .270.

Sure, a .223 could kill an Elk with a perfect shot, but in the field it is seldom perfect shot. To use a small caliber creates the potienial to wound if the shot is marginal, such as if the animal moved as the trigger is pulled... Sure, the same could happen with a larger caliber, but when it comes down to it, there is a reason why highly experienced Elk hunters use larger calibers because they have seen and trailed an animal that was wounded or couldn't be recovered and dies a slow death. Yea, the placement is more important than than the size, but no one, and I MEAN NO ONE, will always make a perfect shot in the field.

Interesting. A 243 of years ago, with modern propellants and projectiles, a 223 easily will do anything an old 243 would.

That being said if I am headed on a hunt where I don't want to have to pass a shot, IE any elk hunt I go on since I'm still elkless, my minimum is 300 mag and prefer a 338 mag. MZ wise nothing less than a 54 running 545 grain conicals.

Still, all in all, if you are willing to hunt and choose a light gun, I don't at all see it like a light tippet. You simply don't "fish" if you can't "get it in right now" Its not like the animal will suffer or the bullet will bounce off, just that you have to have tighter parameters. Just like MZ and Archery hunters take on everytime they go out.

Come on Mauser, chootem twixt the damned ribs man.

Word to the wise.

I have killed 4 elk with 22 centerfires and in my experience elk shoulders will stop 80gr VLDs every time.

Rib shot elk are dead as fast as rib shot elk die but I would highly recommend using arrow type shot placement as other posters have suggested with the .22s.

On the same line of thought I have never seen the 105gr .243 VLD fail on an elks shoulder but I have only seen a dozen or so elk killed with that bullet. In my personal experience that is the difference between the calibers.

Lil Logcutter,
While you are stirring the pot here somewhat I also suspect you are liking your new machine gun and are playing with the thought of popping an elk with said black rifle?

Keep it on the ribs close to the heart and you will have no problems and as others have said it might be kinda fun like any other limited range type of hunt.

Killing an elk with the .223 would certainly be easier than taking said elk with a bow. I am amazed that anyone could be so uncertain of their shooting ability to think quickly killing an elk at 200yds with a .223 would somehow be impossible for all but the superhuman.

I dunno logcutter, performance of premium bullets aside.....

I spose' if an elk was to walk out in my shooting range, no farther than 100 yds, completely broadside, in elk season, WHILE I was shooting my .223, bullet construction almost besides the point by now, hell under those conditions I would be stupid not to put one behind or in the ear....

None of that has happened, not that it can't but I'm not really looking to hold out for that kind opportunity to kill an elk.... Elk hunting already has enough hurtles in it.

If thats ALL the rifle I had was my one hole shoot'n, fast, nimble .223, I would hunt like I was bow hunting to close the range and kill elk.

I shouldn't really talk. This year i'm using a flintlock and round ball for muley's and elk.

I understand it's limits though, and will only take close perfect shots. I may never get those shots, but i'll have fun trying.

Of course the bullet would expand, so your "comeback" makes no sense. Just like the orignal post.

You then understand my contention RE the 223. Thats all.

Same in Colorado.....


Casey

I think everyone knows how tough wild boar hide is and Winchester has come up with a new .223 and .308 bullet to deal with just that.Thick hide and bone...If a Berger VLD fails in an Elk shoulder would that mean a Barnes or Nosler would also?I don't think so.

As someone said earlier..Is a new .223 bullet of today equal to the old bullets in a .243..Yup...

With todays bullets, I see no reason if used accordingly that the .223 which tested equal in penetration on Deer by an NRA contractor, to the .243 and 30-30 in penetration, cannot cleanly kill Elk.

Why is it some say the .243 is an Elk killin' machine but the .224 isn't with only .019 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally.



Jayco

LOL "wild" boar arent that tough, most people just dont understand their anatomy or make poor shots. Despite what you've read on the internet, there are no bulletproof hogs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm-QM1nxjPk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m2vaJCBQTs

Looks like the 30-30 packs a bit more power, and in case of using a barnes bullet probably expands to a much larger diameter than a .223 would. Yes i've seen what a barnes tsx .223 bullet will do when used on deer, it works and expands nicely but nowhere near what a .30cal would expand to.

Going off your signature, you're just stirring the pot with your "why not a .223 for elk?". If you want to use it, and its legal go for it.

And there's still another month of winter.....

Q: Why is it that some say the .338 is the ultimate elk round, but the .308 isn't with only .030 difference in unexpanded diameter with them penetrating equally?

A: Because Craig Boddington didn't write it in a book.

Elk are not bullet proof neither. But like hogs, can be coated in mud and sport heavy bones within them self's, and live in the thickest patch of brush you can find. A perfect storm for bullet problems with high velocity, hard angled shots.

I tend to hunt where animals live, not from the next drainage over, with match hollow point bullets and while getting everything on video. I use bullets more suited to my mode of hunting. I have sniped a few from ridge top to ridge top, It just not how I choose to hunt.

Yep, any .22 centerfire will kill elk. Just gotta point'em in the right direction. Just like anything elts

I'm not so foolish to say a .223 won't kill an elk. That's already been proven. My problem is admitting it's a good elk round.

Not to toot my own horn, but I there's one thing I do well in my hunting. It's being very disciplined on the shots I take. My dad drove that into me, and it stuck. I pass up a lot of shots.

So, I worry about guys using small calibers for big game, and an elk is big game. Especially, if we're talking about a mature bull. There's not a lot of hunters who can turn down angled shots. To always wait for a side double lung shot because you have a minimal gun is not something everybody can do.

That's my problem with the .223.

I don't think I would ever hunt elk with a 223 or a 243, but I am just happy that I live in a free state that allows me to decide for myself what cartridge I want to use. None of this 1000fpe BS, or caliber restrictions.

I know a guy who used an Encore pistol in 223 with a silencer to kill an elk. He was at close range and made a good shot right in the head. He is a very good shot and an even better hunter. In a most states what he did would have been illegal. In Idaho, it was legal and effective.

I have bigger rifles that I prefer to use, and I am happy that I am allowed to make that choice on my own, without the government telling me!

well stated! if you can,t handle at least a 270 win or 308 win, recoil levels take up ping pong, you have zero chance of packing out elk if thats your physical limits

I enjoy the hunt, but not so much the kill anymore..i have great respect for bowhunters, but could personally not mentally deal with the time elapse from when the arrow finds its mark to the time the gutting begans...when i shoot an animal i am always hopefull the end result will be instantanious, but it rarely is and i dont like dealing with that.
So as pointed out earlier, a .223 would quite likely dispatch an elk quicker then the bow but i would just pass altogether if those were my only options...

Well in my case it is because I have personally used both and am not guessing.

I have killed A LOT of feral hogs and I havn't seen anything to make me believe that they are any tougher than other game animals. The boars sometimes have a lot of dried mud on their shoulders, but that does not seem to make a difference to a bullet.

The 223 partions and solid coppers do penetrate well and I would not be surprised if they penetrated an elk shoulder adaquaetly. John's 90gr VLD failed while a 105 VLD did penetrate. The two bullet's SD should be pretty close and so is their weight. Thats a very fine line there, so again, I would guess that a stouter 223 bullet would have no problem penetrating a shoulder.

Are you going to go test this for us?

It's been said that 1500 ft. pounds of energy is a good starting place for an elk round.The 243 give you 1500+ ft. pounds @ 100yds.,the 223 doesn't give you that at the muzzle no matter what bullet you use.

I don't think either the 243 or the 223 are good elk rounds but if i had to choose one it would be the 243.

So small women and children who don't care for the recoil of a 270 shouldn't go elk hunting?

A vast number of elk shot every year are backed up to and loaded into a pickup, and I know several very successful elk hunters who have never packed out an elk.

Are there small women and children on this thread saying a .223 is ok for elk.

I see grown men saying it's ok, and that's who i'm talking about.

I was 10 years old on my first elk hunt. I shot a 30-30. I don't think any women are as small as I was.

um, some folks need help packing out anyway due to health and age.... I help whenever I am around someone that needs it. I think your statement is kinda chicken [bleep]... you are not taking into account older and disabled folks...

So what? I could pack a 458 Lott for elk. Doesn't make me tougher than the guy carrying the 223.

LOL This forum is funny.

In case you haven't noticed. I'm not the only one who thinks a .223 is too small for elk.

You also know I wasn't talking about women, kids, the old(me), and the disabled. Read my damn post again. Would any of those brag about the gun they use? Of course they wouldn't.

Use your freaking head, and stop looking for arguments.

Ohhh! I see the problem here. You couldn't figure out who I was talking to in my first post. Please figure out how to use the internet, and get back to me. Also, questions are normally followed by question marks. Just sayin'.

As for the 223 on elk. If I had them eating off my hay meadows, where my shots were <200 yards, I wouldn't feel a damned bit bad about using a 223. Plenty of elk are shot every year under just such circumstances. Would I take one on a pack in hunt into lodgepole blowdown hell? Nope.

Lay off the ass shots, and put a TSX into the heart/lungs. Dead elk. This killing thing really isn't too complicated, despite our best efforts to make it so.

when HUNTING sometimes shots are not ideal and neither is a 223 to go elk hunting, ideal conditons are just as prairie_goat said then maybe a 223 , but even then i like bigger bullets for bigger critters

i shot an elk once in the head with a 338 and 210 partions at about 200 yards +/- 15 , of course it dropped dead , yes a 243 would have done the same but when i left 2 hours before daylight i did not know what the situation would be

I figured you and rost were talking to me. Since you both quoted me. Isn't that how the internet works? Even without a question mark.

Your turn.

AI you gotta be kidding he asked about elk not elephants, AI too much gun...

Some guy Elmer Something once took an elk with a 32 WCF (32-20) Colt SAA if I remember correctly...

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should?

Main reason not to is that it increases your odds of taking a beautiful creature and making it suffer a long slow death when you could have used something appropriate and reduced it to possession and fed your family and friends with it for a good part of a year. Yes a .223 can kill an elk if everything goes right. So can a .22 long rifle. But why take that chance? Just to show off? Bragging rights? It doesn't seem wise or ethical to me, legalities aside.

Not gonna get caught in this web of gack, but will say I have not taken or used a 223 on elk.

I will say that for some reason or another I'm quite certain that under certain circumstances the 22/250 and the Swift have done elk for us quite handily. Place it in the arm pit and they can't go far sans pumper or lungs. Or so I'm told....grin

That's it, so don't try to debate on this.

Dober

my sentiments exactly!

I wanna see someone take a week to 10 days off from work,pay for tags, transportation,and the million other DIY expenses;or shell out a few grand (today in some cases 5 figures),on an outfitted hunt,and depend on a 223 on an elk hunt.

Such tricks are fine to talk about, or for someone who lives in elk country, sees them constantly, and wants to pull off a stunt that won't impress anyone with any experience,except maybe himself.

I think any post promoting these micro-calibers for elk should be required to state how many wounded elk have escaped. Seems that that detail is always left out.

not sure if its a case of a typo or two or just lack of experience...huh, go figure ?

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6087470/1

I wouldn't choose a 223 for killing elk, but I do believe a 223 loaded up with something like 75gr Swift, 70gr TSX would be at least as good or better than stuff used in days gone by.

Had to be a lot of elk killed with old round ball charcoal burners, 44-40s, etc.

Still are.

It's all about understanding the limitations, and working within them.

That's right MM, and sooner or later all rounds reach their limits and usually as we all know the shooter reaches the limits well b4 the rounds do...

On a side note but sort of the same take timber hunting. I'm very comfy using smaller rounds in the timber (meaning sub magums or big bores) reason being I'll take the shot if alls right. If'n it's not I'll not drop the hammer. Some I know will drop the hammer at the sight of elk, not really knowing where they're gonna place the slug. The old get a slug into an elk and hope to sort it out.

In the timber I'm in predator mode, and know I'll get one shot. If I take it, the critters gonna hit the turf. If I can't get that shot then I don't drop the hammer.

Just my way.

Dober

I guess my question would be Why shoot an elk with a .223?
My progression through guns growing up was first a pellet/BB gun to learn with and shoot squirrels and targets with, then a 22LR to replace the BB gun and about the same time a 20 Ga shotgun for bird/rabbit hunting. Then when I was old enough for big game I moved onto a 30-30 then a 30-06. I didn't own a .223 until later on when I bought it as a dedicated varmint gun. I'm thinking this is a typical progression with most hunters and I'm thinking most who own a .223 or similar varmint rifle also have a real big game rifle in their battery so why bother using a varmint rifle on elk when you most likely have a rifle better suited for the task at hand.

I've never shot an elk but have killed a bunch of deer with .490 round balls and a .223. The .223 consistently inflicts more damage upon a deers innards than the .490 balls.

Once again on penetration and those that know what it is supposed to mean in ballistic Gel in different calibers..

There can't be anyone here that can say the 30-30 is not an Elk gun within it's limitations of yardage for effectiveness.

Out of the AR-15...223/5.56

Cartridge : Barnes 62gr Triple-Shock (handloaded).223

Firearm : Gas-operated rifle with 16" barrel length and 1/9 inch rifling twist.

Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 9.5cm @ 578 ft/sec (primary block) and 8.3cm @ 585 ft/sec (stopper block))

Penetration = 17.4"
Average expanded diameter = 0.408"
Impact velocity = 2752 ft/sec

The 30-30 Winchester with 20" barrel....

Cartridge : 160 grain Hornady Evolution bullet (part # 82730).

Firearm : Lever-actuated rifle with 20" barrel length.

Calibration : All depths corrected (From 9.8cm @ 616ft/sec)

Bullet impacted at 2216 � 0.500 ft/sec

Penetration was 17.5"

Jayco

If all you have is a .223 I would say check your game laws, load it properly and properly place your shots. Theoretically it should kill an elk under IDEAL conditions. However, with other rifles to choose from in a battery of larger more powerful cartridges which is usually the case it would be one of the last ones I would choose.

Then there are Polar Bears with the AR-15...

While Herbert waited at one end of the island, Cadzow, on foot, went into the brush tracking the bear.

Suddenly, the bear came out from under a brush pile about 10 yards away. It charged straight at Cadzow, who was carrying an AR-15, a rifle similar to the U.S. Army�s M-16.

The encounter was so close, Cadzow said, he didn�t have time to lift and sight the rifle.

�I shot from the hip, seven or eight times,� he said. �If I had gotten it to my shoulder, it (bear) would have been on top of me. It happened so quick, by the time it was down, it was about 10 feet from my feet.�

Or a charging Black Bear.

The officers tried scaring the bear toward a nonresidential area by yelling at it and throwing sticks at it, Weiser said. He said the entire incident lasted about an hour.

The bear eventually turned around, but came directly toward the officers. One of them fired a single shot with an AR-15 rifle, killing the bear, Weiser said.

I should be wolf hunting instead of playing on the net..Thanx gas prices..

Jayco

I am actually pretty comfortable with an AR in Grizzly country. I would not shoot an elk in the shoulder and expect good results.

Bear noggins and elk shoulders are very different and ballistic gel ain't either.

FWIW, I was on a caribou hunt years ago in the NWT. The Eskimo guide I hunted with had with him an old Remington 700 in .222. There wasn't one bit of bluing on the steel or varnish left on the stock. It had a 4X Leupold with tapered crosshair. He told me that he had killed over 30 Polar Bears and that many grizzly bears with it along with thousands of caribou, moose and muskox....I had no doubt he was telling me the truth. He was a hell of an outdoorsman and ran a skinning knife better than anyone I've ever seen.

'Lil John

Nice AR and I agree with you on most things other than Berger bullets,especially in an AR aka .223 where penetration is not a given.

I haven't had time to get a good picture of mine but I did go outside and snap one on my cell phone..Nothing like yours but it is a Smith and Wesson with less than $700 the way it sits.



I am not 100% sure yet,but I just might go black this year and never look back!

Jayco

Only wimps use the 223, personally I use my 222. I can knock a wart off a gnat with that gun. And we all know accuracy is really the only thing you need to kill an animal

There 'ya go TX..Accuracy is everything...

The .223 is just a 222 AI.

Jayco

Accuracy is the main thing but it isn't everything. Further, there is sometimes a discrepancy between desired and actual placement.

If accuracy was everything we could all hunt with .22 rimfires and save a lot of money.

Did he also tell you how many he shot and didn't recover? Not likely and I'll bet the number was high.

I wouldn't even hesitate to kill an elk with a .223...

I've seen what a 223/TSX does to a cow buffalo, and seen the exit hole, rib in, rib out... Elk ain't any more bullet proof.

The repetitive theme seems to be marginal shots and trying to make up for that with bullet mass. Quit making schitty shots.

Ok Buffalo Bill.

Do ya drive a Moped on the Interstate

It'll get you there but if things go wrong it won't be a nice thing.

Back in the 50s a sports writer ran a series of tests on the best cartridge for shooting through brush. and he did it in a way to prove wich ones would give the best group. the .270 150 grain cartridge did the best the worst were the large 45 calibers and the high speed .224 calibers.and I believe he did an excellant job at it.he used wooden dowls arranged in the same pattern for all the shots.

Huh, I'm not following...?

Dober

IMO:
The title..."Elk and the .223.Why not?"
Answer..In several states it is not even legal and it is a small bore designed for varmints or wimmpy creatures like humans.
The body of the post..if a .243 is an elk killing machine why not the .223 etc.etc..
Answer..if the .243 was an elk killing machine then you could make that argument..if a 22-250 is a coyote killing machine, then why not a .223, then why not a .222, then why not a .22 hornet, then why not a 22mag, then why not a 22 lr and i'll skip the 22 long and just get right to the short !
No SERIOUS elk hunters think a .243 is a elk killing machine.
If a .243 was and elk killing machine then yes, why not the .223 ? Let me know when we get down to the .22 short cause it will kill and elk also, likely even fronm a 2" snub nose pistol..go right through the orbitable socket just so the odds will make it better for a clean kill if thats a consideration..

Chuck Norris hunts elk with a .223rem.

I thought Chuck just gave them a flying kick?

chuck told me theres no difference between doctor Kavorkian and the taliban w/a knife and a video camera..either way you end up dead so whats the big deal ?
Hard to argue with that logic....

TOTALLY AGREE

Good Job

The funny thing about most guys in the 223 killing crowd, all use other cartridges also. If the 223 was such a great killing machine then why would they use anything else? Why not sell all their other firearms that are not chambered in 223?

I am pretty sure everyone who said the .223 would work also said it was a limited range affair and compared it to other limited range types of hunting, ie bow hunting or muzzle loaded hunting.

I have heard rumors that most western states are now considering having special AR-15 elk seasons for the use of rifles like Jayco�s. These hunts would be during the rut and most likely overlap existing bow and muzzle loaded season to offer all the new owners of such guns a chance to use them.

From what I have read barrel lengths will be a max of 16 inches and magazines must be able to hold a minimum of 20 rounds to be legal.

Contact your local game and fish to show your support.

"It's not about headstamps, it's placement", "It's all about the type of bullet, use Barnes TSX", I haven't read the entire thread but have heard these types of statements many times on the campfire. I've not heard the word "limitations" by the hardcore 223 advocates. I guess that if a guy wanted to limit his shots you could take that to the 22LR but I'll take every advantage the law allows within reason.

Comparing the 223 to a 22LR is ridiculous.

A 223 is what it is, but I cannot equate a 40gr lead bullet at 1200 fps, with a 70gr TSX at 2900 fps.


If you can, well, I believe you.

Mr Burns brought up the "limitations" issue. You can take that to any extreme you want to. Would you not consider a 22LR a limiting factor when elk hunting?

Bottom line a .223 will kill an elk but the difference is more than 0.019 diameter.

Using the previous example provided

.223/ 62 gr - at 3100 fps carries a kinetic energy of 1323 ft/lbs
.243/ 95 gr - at 2980 fps carries a kinetic energy of 1873 ft/lbs

There's 42% more energy being imparted on the elk between a 243 and a 223.

I am always amazed at someone who admits they don�t have any interest in other opinions but feel everyone needs to hear theirs.

OK John, I'll read the thread and see if it changes my mind. For the record, no one is compelled to read my opinion. It's an open forum. OK, I wasted my time reading the entire thread and it did nothing to change my mind.

I can't compare the 22LR with the 223, any more seriously than I would compare a 25ACP with a 25-06.

I'm just funny like that.

I've killed a pretty big pile of deer with a .22LR. Somehow I doubt Elk with a .223 would be any more difficult. Course if you're one who needs to shoot 700 yds. I can see it being a different story.

What HAVE you killed with a 223, and how many times have you been in on the blood spillin when it comes to wapiti?

I've been killing elk since the early 60's with real guns Bill.

What Wyatt Earp said............

And somehow you STILL think they're bullet proof...

Learn how to get closer or how to shoot, cause if you've been doing it for 50 years and couldn't do it with a 223 you suck and need a new hobby.

Buffalo didn't make it 50 yards, and was shot by an autistic 12 year old, BTW.

For the long time Elk hunters here,how many have seen the 25-35 used on Elk and even more controversial in it's day,the .250-3000.. The .250-3000,maybe the first high velocity .25 caliber hit 3000 fps with an 87 grain bullet..WOW!!!!!

Yup,times have changed and bullets have got alot better and yes,the 25-35 and .250 Savage of old,killed Elk as does the 30-30 and other rounds not known for penetration but in the hands of experienced hunters,knocked em' dead with the bullets of old.

With todays bullets known for penetration, like the TSX makes in my opinion,them equal to in a smaller caliber with equal penetration of the old warhorses of years ago.

Jayco

Lil' John

We can use them now so why would we need a special hunt?Any weapon means any weapon including the .223..

Besides I like your idea,who would pass up an opportunity to get all dressed up in our GI Joe costumes in full camo or even better,black and hit the hills with multiple 30-round mags going after Elk in the rut...

I think I still have E-3 patches from the Army and AF and I could loan you one if you wished to participate in Idaho's first GI Joe hunt.

I do like your brand of humor though!

Jayco

Last year I killed one at 50 yds with a Hawken and round ball. I'm a still hunter and I know how to get close. It's the only way I hunt.

I never said they're bullet proof. I do find it fun to rag on guys who shoot .223's though. You're all so sensitive, and have no sense of humor. Shoot a gun with more than 3 lbs of recoil, and you won't have to defend it all the time.

Haven't read what everybody is yaking about. A .223 is MORE than adequate to cleanly take an elk. But when they are on a dead run, straight away, at 400 yards, better hope you don't have a 223, not even with a 20round magazine. Thankfully I had a big can of whoopass here.. What's that saying? 3 in the ass is better than one in the grass..

MH

How do you like the penetration you get with a round ball out of your Hawken..I only have a Thompson 50 cal and the penetration a round ball gives is not good,in my opinion.I would bet the .223/30-30 would way out penetrate the soft old round ball.

Some are so soft that when sticking one, my bullet puller pulled out of the soft lead round ball.Idaho quit letting us use sabots leaving us with either the round ball or conical..Boo.

If you have a bullet that will penetrate decently and you put that bullet where it belongs,you have dead animals.

Jayco

To be honest. This year will be the first year I try a .50 cal flintlock for elk. I've used a .54 in the past. Up to 50 yds it has enough penetration to get through both lungs. That's a big hole, and they don't go far.
My guns have slow twist barrels, and i'm committed to a PRB. Yours has a 1-48 twist, and will shoot conicals. If you have doubts about a PRB. Shoot a 400gr conical, and you'll knock an elk on it's butt.

I didn't see your post or I wouldn't have posted...I think that saying you was after is:(referring to rifles only)

Once you go black there's no going back

Jayco

That was last fall's MT elk, 3 in the ass, none in the grass. That's how I roll.

Ass man eh?

A guy's got to have his fetishes

NIce elk GH.


Travis

If the ass is all I've got, I'm going to take it. That's why I don't hunt with a .223 since I have a choice.

I guess the 223 would work if using the TSX Bullet. If i was hungry enough i would wait until it snowed, then shoot one in the lungs and sit down and wait for a while to give it time to stop and fall over . Track it in the snow and then have supper. Elk are big animals and varmint rifles just aren't the best choice, period.

Not every thing that can be done is necessarily a good idea.

Good policy, and not just limited to the hunting of wildlife.

Looking forward to your bear pics this spring so I can hate you further.


Travis

If one has to shoot em' in the azz where all the meat is,that's where the .223 shines..Green Tip steel penetrating non-expanding rounds.

Eyes never shootz anythang in the beast eating part!

Spray and pray...

Jayco

Logsplitter, That elk might have lived another day had I been toting a .223 as there's no way I'd have taken a shot. No hesitation with the old meat in the pot, AKA "The Azzhole" laying in that photo. You should take a close look & learn to recognize greatness.

By the way, I've a sweet .223.

What can I say to a comment like that other than,you fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee...Your the greatest of all time and shame your elders in greatness and anyone else that walks in your tracks...

Did I leave anything out?


Jayco

I've never killed anything bigger than a whitetail with my 22-250 pushing 80gr A-Maxes......But those Elk...I think I'd use a bit more calibre. Maybe one day I'll get a chance to try.

Anyone who is such a wimp that they can't handle anything bigger than a 223 has no business hunting Elk. Where we hunt, other animals also live, that a 223 would just pizz off.

I think he needs to see his dentist....

It's got blueberry tongue.

Across the country .223 is the BARE minimum caliber for whitetail. In some states it's .243. The average deer weighs 150-175 pounds, the average elk around 600-650 pounds.

Yes of course it will kill them, but who knows how long it could take. It could be instant or the elk may run off and die from infection even worse... coyotes, wolves or bears catch up to it since it is too weak to run off.

Simply put, you need to respect the animal your after.

Case in point, humans aren't as tough as big game animals when shot. The 5.56 has been used in the military since Vietnam, BUT ask most combat vets if they wish they had more killing power, frontal area, etc. and the answer would be a resounding YES. Think about it... the 6.8 SPC was designed from the ground up to compete with and beat ballistically the 7.62x39 cartridge because of the lack of knockdown power the 5.56 had.

I'm elk hunting for the first time this year and nothing smaller than a 260 will go with me. More than likely it'll be my 350 Rem Mag.

Larry,

you guys just surround him. Whichever one he grips, is just not there...

Like you do it here.

They are using the wrong bullets.

The .223 has a lot of momentum around here. It seems to be against the rules to comdemn the use of it regardless of what you are hunting. If you want to stay flame free just applaud the use of the .223 on anything out there. White Rhino at 600 yards? No problem! Go use a .223 on something with a Barnes solid and you will be part of the club.

I'd like to ask a serious question. Not trolling. Just curious.

Why use a .223 on big game?

Indeed.

Been sitting this one out...will continue to do so...

Thanks for not quoting mouser...

Your welcome...

And the latter would be a great choice.

Jayco

How about the .243 for Grizz?Phil Shoemaker thinks it would work with quality bullets.

All the years I guided both sheep and grizzly hunters in the =hugach, Talkeetna and Brooks ranges I never ran across a grizzly that I would have been hesitant to shoot with a .243 Win. with quality bullets. I'm not saying it is what I would choose or recommend but have no doubt I would have been 100% safe from any grizzly in open country.

Then the lowly .223 should kill Elk just dandy,they don't bite back.

Jayco

I can see the cattle rancher, waiting on top of his haystack for the elk to come into feed and then popping one in the head while they mill around below making a valid scenario.
I suspect that the majority of guys on here havent used a .223 on elk or even plan to do so, but are just making the point that it is legal in some areas and it will kill elk.

Like I said, there's more than a few of us around here, that if the requiremnet presented itself, we'd figure out how to get it done.

I like the idea of having to harvest a grizzly with your .243, before you can take an elk with a .223 !!
Keep 'em coming logcutter ! (smile) You must be even more bored then I !!!

I'd have no worries about taking a griz with a 243 on decent terms.

They're not that wide, and plenty of them have been taken with a bow. Stick a decent bullet in behind the front shoulder and it'll run a short bit and topple over.

Once again this stuff is rocket science only if one chooses to make it such.

Dober

If you can't kill an elk with a .223 there is somthing wrong with you, not the cartridge... Just sayin...

His welcome what?

Understand...and if your cartridge of choice would be the .223, then there would be something wrong with you..Just sayin (smiley face also !)

. I use a 338 win mag...

my rifle of choice for years was a .340 using a bipod...the third time it opened me up from a prone position, I decided it "was to heavy" ! (smile) settle for the wimpy .300's and 7mm's now !

Well actually they are now starting to use the right bullets.

When "Brown Tip" is said that means 70gr X bullets.

When MK318 or SOST is said that means the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw without the bonding.

When MK262 is said that means the Sierra Match King 77gr HPBT.

The US Military most likely has more experienced gun fighters serving now than at any time in history and the overwhelming satisfaction with the 5.56/.223 as a fighting round in the units that have the most gun fighting experience is well known.

When UBL got his door kicked down the fellows that kicked the door and subsequently gave him one to the chest and one to the head had a lot of latitude in selecting the cartridge they were going to use and the 5.56/.223 was the choice. The resulting case of "canoe head" was the cause of much controversy and was the excuse used to not show the world pictures of his dead body.



I guess I missed the part where anybody in the entire thread recommended the .223 as a great elk cartridge. Seems I read a lot of �limited range�, �stay off the shoulder�, �place it in the armpit�, and also a lot of comparison to muzzle loaders and �stuff used in days gone by�.

No one here has ever said the .223 was a good choice for a general elk hunt but most of the experienced elk hunters have said it would not be a daunting task to go fill an elk tag with a .223 and a proper bullet. Nobody has said it would be their first choice except as a way to add some challenge to a hunt in the same way a muzzle loader or archery equipment adds challenge.



Why use a bow? Why use a muzzle loaded? Why use a revolver?

I think Logcutter got himself a new black gun and it has all these crazy ideas swirling in his noggin.

I must admit I almost got a cow tag in NM this year to go get one with a 16 inch AR. I may have to make it happen this year.

Make it happen John. I'd like to see the video of you using it with a 30 round mag, tracers, and fmj's.....Sounds great

I was more thinking 75gr SSII, a ten round mag and 1 or 2 shots.

John Nosler said once that a 225 winchester, while capable of taking a deer, was not the right choice. It's great stuff, can you kill with the 22 cal, sure, but I believe it is a question of ethics. We owe it to the animal to insure an ethical kill. Also, while one may be able to do it, Fifty others cant. Common sense tells you not to, at least it does for me. As for a lion with the 22 rimfire, with five dogs surrounding the tree, great, but if you are the lone ranger doing the shooting with no backup, I sure want something bigger than a 22 rimfire for lions. Finally, I strongly suspect the ones who do use 22 cal for big game have all lost game before, they just wont tell you about it.

You could use a spoon to dig a grave but a back hoe works better.

I've lost game with a .30-06..

What was your point again?

I've never lost a critter with a 223AI. Not saying I'd use it for elk, just saying.

Was that before, or after, Nosler introduced the 60gr Partition?

I was reading up on the .223 on Deer and saw where a guy wrote Federal Cartridges and asked which one of it's line of .223 ammunition did they recommend for Deer sized animals...

They wrote back 60 grain Nosler Partition..

I really expected one of the Barnes or maybe the Fusion to be in it..Not..Just the 60 grain Partition.


Jayco

I strongly suspect the ones who do use .30 cal for big game have all lost game before, they just wont tell you about it.

"Indian - not the arrow."

Big holes work better:

Wow Larry, your latest butt plug?

You just had to do it, didn't you?

Ive been squirming in my seat, resisting the urge....

Larry loves going big in Key West..

Yep, no "small bores" there...

Glad to see my appeal to act like adults has been so successful and all the name calling, foul mouthing and acting like Chuck Norris wannabes has stopped.

My I wish you one and all, the blessings of our Lord on this sabbath day.

Let's ALL stay on the same track to redemption come tomorrow !

Welcome to Wyoming !

It was in version 4 or 5, I dont have either here at my house, but I am sure someone could check. But even better than the partition, I would think the x bullet would be a game changer. I still personally, out west, am not interested in packing one as I want long range knockdown, and some wind resistance.

My biggest objection to 22 cal being used for deer is pretty simple. most poachers love them, and if you had land that poachers had literally anialated the black tail deer herd, you might gain that opinion also.

The 75gr Swift is a pretty impressive .224" hunting bullet too, considering weight, construction, and BC.

Aggie-I'd be all about blaming the shooter not the round if it were me...

Dober

Yup!

Radical concept...

Yes indeed.

yep, you are probably right Mark.

Hey, the 223 is better than an arrow, but, in all seriousness, are you going to buy your 16 year old boy his only deer rifle, in 223?

My question is WHY?

Are you bored with a 30-06 that it can do the job just about in every condition?

Seriously?

yep, you are probably right Mark.

Hey, the 223 is better than an arrow, but, in all seriousness, are you going to buy your 16 year old boy his only deer rifle, in 223?

For elk hunting I mean? I mean come on, sure I could kill an elk with a 223, but I sure would not recommend it.

Once again, show up in elk camp, on a trophy bull elk hunt, and see how impressed your guide will probably be. Especially in rough terrain.

Interesting concept there dober....

If all there was, was .223's and elk, why I'd be eaten' elk.

Partly 'cause .223 would break my teeth!

Why not, it's been plenty good for a 40+ year old.

Not me, I'd blame the guy who started this thread.......

Didn't know about that one..Just the name Swift speaks volumes in reputation.

(Requires 1-in-8 twist)

100 bullets per box Caliber .224 Diameter .224" Grain 75 Profile BTS Length 1.085" Sectional Density .214 Ballistic Coefficient .419

Have you shot them or worked up loads for them yet?

Jayco

So, it seems you have to use premium bullets for the .223 to be effective. You also need to shoot at closer ranges. You also need to take safe shots. Lung shots.

Kind of sounds like what you'd do with a good old 30-30 with cheap core-lokts.

The 30-30 will destroy less meat, and i'd feel more comfortable shooting a bear with the 30-30 too. Just in case you run in to a grumpy mama with cubs.

I still don't get the .223 except for varmints.

It's just something to argue about.

Not everyone takes two weapons for Elk.I know around here some are taking two now,but one is for Wolves.So the Elk caliber goes down and all you have with you is a .223 that you use for Wolves.

Now we know the modern .223 shoots and penetrates equal to the 30-30 and .243 on game(Deer) from test from the NRA contractors.

So if you put the good bullet in the good place,your going to have just as dead Elk as shot with the 30-30/243.

Jayco

Die where?

Is this really still going on?

If you punch the lungs of an Elk with a 45-70 hard cast,you have punched the lungs with a ..459/.460 bullet for the most part..If you punch the lungs with a .223 Federal Fusion,you punched the lungs with a .54 caliber expanded bullet.

Which is better?

Jayco

Cabin fever boredom...

Awe Yeah,,Cabin fever and it snowing sideways...

2-3 more weeks till' Stealhead on the river where I like to be/want to be and need to be.Just alittle more time for things to warm up and the fish will be jumping into the nets.



Jayco

Will a .223 that expands to 2x caliber really penetrate like a 45/70 hardcast?

Not sure I buy that.

I didn't say that,did I?I said a 45-70 hard cast through the lungs is about .458/.459 in diameter and a .223 through the same lungs,has expanded to over that...

If either penetrates through the lungs,which is better?

Jayco

buffybr: I cut into that by getting slapped around with a 375H&H yesterday......only another week or two to bass fishing...Hooorraahh!

Oh, gotcha. I haven't been following the thread and really don't care as I can say categorically I will not be hunting elk with a .223.

That said I'd certainly shoot an elk with one in some sort of zombie apocalypse where it was just elk & .223's. Head shot or in the armpit as others have said.

The elk hunting I've done doesn't lead me to believe that I'll see many "shooters" in .223 range holding still for those perfect shot angles. I'm sure that means I'm a chitty elk hunter more than anything.

Bob, I'm almost healed up to where recoil is imaginable again. Actually sitting in the neurologists office right now- will ask his opinion.

I MISS recoil therapy!

I've seen game lost, but never to a .223... usually but not always shot with something containing magnum in the name, by a guy who could neither hunt, shoot, nor track worth a damn.

The worst crippler if game I have ever seen was a 6mm shooter..he usually crippled at least two head every fall..his last even, he shot a big bull and chased it to the boundry of his unit...the bull crossed out of the unit into another...and just out of his sight fell dead...a spike stood up looking around at all the noise...since the big bull escaped, he took a crack at the spike..killed it dead..fortunately the game warden was watching and he was arrested and lost his license for 5 years...most of the game wasting cripplers I know shoot small bore rifles for the game...

So with bigger cartridges you are all for taking JO ass shots, [bleep] the vitals? I've never not punch bone with the 223AI. Put you experience is akin to JO's on the matter.

You read funny. I never said anything about taking bad shots.

Then again. You're Steelhead, and I expect nothing less from you.

223= JUNK

I'm horney and in WY

Ya, and as a Vietnam era vet, I can tell you , we all were just so really impressed with the 223........why do you think the military is rethinking that one. Multiple bursts from an automatic is required.

clueless 15 year olds = clueless 15 year olds.

Exactly AggieDog, they designed the 6.8 SPC to replace it... at least for the Special Forces for now. Glad someone has my back. LOL

Of course head shots are the best, but when your clearing room to room your not exactly focused on making perfect head shots... surviving is WAY more important.

Question... would you rather clear rooms with a .223 diameter bullet or a 30 cal? No brainer. Same concept, of course it will kill them, but a 30 cal hitting the exact same spots would kill faster. Why else would they invent the 6.8 SPC to compete with the 7.62x39?

That's one reason why special forces use the AK-47 over the M4 in a lot of situations.

What the [bleep] do clearing rooms, Vietnam, or special forces have to do with the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of the 223 on elk?

Never had an elk shoot back, toss a grenade, or detonate an IED yet.... it's not like they have an offensive agenda.

[bleep], next chance I get to legally do it, I'm whackin an elk with a 223. Even though I know a 12 year old rainman who already whacked tatonka with one...

The 5.56mm round is fine for combat. Its the damn ball ammo that needs to be changed. Not to mention the amount of ammo a guy can carry, and the fact that elk are not hopped up on opium. Same thing with the 9mm vs the 45 ACP.

Back to elk hunting...

Dog Hunter - you got give up those nasty MT habits! We are already trying to deport oldmanweirdo/interthem. You don't want your name added to the list of undesirables!

I don't have any experience shooting people, but quite a bit shooting deer sized game and I can't tell any difference provided vitals are punched.

I figured Special Forces wanted a different cartridge because for the most part they think they are Special better than some lowly grunt...

Pretty clear where he got that idea. You might want to read what you write sometime.

Sorry, old habits die hard.

No, I don't see it at all. maybe you should read my complete post. Not just what he quoted.

I said safe shots need to be taken with the .223 and the 30-30.

I made no mention at all of being able to take bad shots with any bullet. I wouldn't, because that goes against everything I stand for in my hunting.

The 45 was my personal side arm in the 82nd, and opinions are just that, opinions, and for me, I d rather pop someone charging me with a 45 than the 9mm. I'll get that followup shot for sure with a 45 because his but t s going to be down on the first shot.

I'll buy the 223 on elk if Im the shooter, but I wont recommend it to inexperienced shooters.

Clueless adult= clueless adults

Keep practicing. It'll come in handy for you..

Any thread that goes this long for no apparent reason other than boredom should have some girly pics...

The whole topic is clueless. Illegal in some places, foolish anywhere.

You gotta watch the whole video, especially the part with the "flying camera" near the end. Imagine you had shot him with your 22 caliber toy and he was really pizzed off ?

Stupid is as stupid does !

http://www.nps.gov/yell/photosmultimedia/safetyvideos.htm

I tried to divert the topic with my sheep [bleep] pic but nobody followed suit.

LOL

.


Sorry but it is too much fun poking the guys who can't imagine an elk could actually be killed with anything but a mega magnum.

I mean an elk is simply a magic creature that actually knows what it has been shot with. Wrecked hearts and lungs are not the point, it will not die until a minimum cartridge has been used.

Magic is cool.

I used to be in the camp that thought a 30-06 was marginal for elk... and used a 300 Win Mag on everything, including Coues. After a few years of THAT, I've seen a 223 and various 260s flatten more critters, and flatten them faster faster, than I ever saw with that 300.

I guess I'm just a quick learner and obviously of above average anti-wizardry skills. Like a [bleep] ninja or something.

A goat [bleep], however, I will never be... LOL.

More fun poking fun at those who can't handle more than a .223.

This whole thing is still going nowhere. By the way, I killed a bull last year with a 375 H&H, and the rifle kill before that with a 340 Wby.

I wish I was tough enough to shoot a "real" gun, like a 30-30. Unfortunately my frail little bones break under the recoil of anything more than a 223. I should probably just give up hunting all together, since I don't hunt with a 30 caliber anything.

I know that when women see a "real man" packing a Uber Extreme Magnum their panties automatically drop from the sheer manliness exuded by said hunter. Any elk hunter not packing a big gun just as well turn in his man card, as well as his balls.

Laffin....

Ive been shooting the vastly more powerful .223AI...

Does that get me inclusion in the " Real Man" column...?


On second thought, if you are in that column, I'd just as soon stay out....

See what I mean? Three fast posts with their panties in a knot.

laffin 2.

I'm not wearing any panties...


"Commando" today...feelin' pretty macho after handling the mighty .223AI...

At your age you probably just tuck the "boys" in your boot top right?

would you guys please stop quoting her?

What a baffon. Who rags on someone when they have them on ignore?

Man up you sissy.


Someone please quote me.

How does one "man up" on the internet? I'm dying to know.


Travis

Face them instead of hiding behind the ignore button.

So, if I were to read your post and reply thats you are a lifeless, [bleep], douche bag, I would be "manning up"?

Hypothetically speaking of course...


Travis

Yeah, and if I said you were worthless, lowlife, loser.

I'd be doing the same...so to speak.

Ok. Thanks for teaching me how to "man up". I feel really tough now. If I bump into Rancho I'll try and teach him how to "man up".


Travis

Well, we are on a forum. It's just the written word. So, we can only man up with the written word.

Face to face things would be different.

Giving someone little snipes when you can't read what they say back to you is something little girls do. If he wants to ignore me that's fine. Just stop whining when I continue to post, and someone quotes me. I never post to him until he says something about me. It's an obligation. Rag on me. I rag on you. I like to keep things in balance.

I think my chest hairs grow a smidge every time I read your posts. Please tell me more about being manly.



Travis

Any person whom puts someone on ignore then pops them off(ignore) to stab them in the back,then returns to ignore so they can't see the response...

Is What?

But then again,that is just my opinion without naming names.


Jayco

I'm still learning how to be a man on the internet. But I'm pretty sure we have to name names in order to meet the defintion of "man up".

Hopefully Mauser Hunter chimes in. He's the expert.


Travis

Been one all my life. What do you need to know?

I'm not sure drinking milk qualifies though.

I'm sure somewhere a Grizzly has been killed with a BB gun, and a .223 is certainly capable of killing an elephant if you're shooting it out of a SAW at 700 rounds/min. Why take a chance on wounding an awesome animal? If you have the patience to wait for that perfect shot, and it's legal, I guess. For me, I like the margin of error provided by my .300 Win Mag or my .30-06 depending on the anticipated range. There's a lot of fine calibers available, it's just nice to have one that let's you take that longer range or through light brush or in the wind shot ethically and with a high probability of success.

"Milk was a bad choice!"


Travis

Hell, I never stopped liking milk. I drink 3-4 gallons a week.

So, i'm just busting your chops on that one.

But you weren't recently fired for telling San Diego to go [bleep] themselves, plus it was a hot day.

When you factor those in, it makes more sense...

I'm sitting here trying to figure out exactly what you're talking about, but i'm failing. Eh?

Let's just say that if you throw a burrito out your car window and it hits a biker in the face causing him to crash, don't stop! Keep on going and don't look back...

Jack Black! That's how I roll!!!

Jesus! You must be a fart machine. That's why you can shoot all those big scary cartridges. You just let one fly at the moment of truth and it counters the recoil.

Again. "Milk was a bad choice!"


Travis

Oh ok.

He could not have stated it any more plainly. You sure it's 3-4 gallons of MILK?


Travis

Brick, why are you holding a hand gernade?

I killed a guy with a trident.


Travis

Dirty pirate whore...

It's "pirate hooker"...

And you look like a blueberry!


Travis

You figured out he threw a burrito out the window and hit a biker from what he said?

You sure that's milk? I want some.

Duly noted.

Who's Duly?

He's kind of a big deal around here...

He has many leather bound books, and an apartment that smells of rich mahogany.

Sounds like a blueberry.

It's boring, but it's part of my life.


Travis

Well, you have bad hair.


Travis

You remind me of what the German's named San Diego.

I don't have enough hair to have bad hair.

KC just called you a "whale's vagina", he's just too polite to say it.

You're welcome for the translation.


Travis

They call San Diego...The Stud?

They call my town Dingleberry. He can have that one.

Time to take the pooch for a run.

Laters.

Good for you for accepting who you are.

Don't let the bad man kick him off of the bridge.


Travis

Looks like it worked. Didn't even need to coordinate. We should be promoted to squad leaders.


Travis

Absolutely. Couldn't of done it without Ron Burgundy though.

Don't forget the channel five news team.

My work is done here. Got more 9.3 to test.

It's my gopher gun this spring. Kind of ironic considering the thread title.

Travis

You stay classy San Diego...

There 'ya go right there and said very well 'lil John,wrecked heart and lungs mean nothing..I have seen the 22-250/223 and 243 used on Elk and in what I have seen,the .22-250 and 223 killed better than the 243..Just because of the user putting the bullet where it belonged..

It isn't the caliber but the shooter being able to make the shot needed without stressing out....The differeence between the 243 and 223 is so small,how could it matter if they both penetrate the same?

Jayco

Lil Logcutter,

Well are going to commit to using your shiny new black gun to kill an elk this year or are you just stirring the pot?

I would again like to reiterate that I would avoid shoulders if you are doing more here than just talking.

'lil John

I'm not just talking.I am considering using it this year but it all depends on what I see prior to hunting season and if there still there..And I have chose pretty much to use the 62 grain TSX,a bullet I am really not fond of but penetration and integrity is more important in the .223 than most if I do my job.

I never take shoulder shots intentionally..I am a meat hunter.

Notice I said intentionally.Chit happens...

Jayco

AMEN!

My nephew's son Grant got to go on an elk hunt provided by the Trinity Oaks Foundation (he is a two-time survivor of gliobastoma, a very malignant brain cancer). I thought that this photo would be appropriate in this thread. The AR 15 that he used is one that he built while in quarantine with parts donated by the men and women over on the AR website.

great picture, mudhen!

I will take the 45-70 and leave the 223 where it belongs. With the prairie dogs.

It wasn't a prayer nitwit.

That is nothing short of just cool...Any story that goes with it.

Thanks for the photo and the fine young hunter.

Jayco

That is a great story of the kid and the elk. I hope there are MANY more elk in his future!!!! As for the .223, I guess we will all wake up one day and that is the only cartridge that we will use. It does everythig so well. I can't wait.

the future isn't here yet...for now, the .223AI fills that bill....

Must be an out west thing. I only know of one guy that has one of those. I guess we are still in the dark ages down here. Heck, I still hunt with a 30.30!

Funniest thing is absolutely no one in this thread has recommended the .223 as a general purpose elk round.

Some here have found the idea of using a .223 to kill an elk as akin to scaling Mount Everest and some have found the idea interesting in a limited range added challenge method of hunting.

Interesting also that those who seem to have the most actual elk killing real world experience seem to also be the least daunted in the concept of actually killing an elk with said .223. Is there a lesson hiding in the responses??

If they want a challenge. Use an elk gun, and take the scope off.

Why? there are much better cartridges for elk. I suppose one could kill an Elephant with a 22LR if life was perfect. For myself I'll use something else. I was "given" a .223 as part of my daily outfit for over 20 years, and yes they do and will work for what they were designed to do. For Elk why?

I would dislike to be hit by one but hit right whould I now?

Lil John

We know it can or anyone that has hunted very long,should know that.My only problem using the .223 exclusively for Elk this year is the possibility of having to pass on a non typical shot we get thrown at us at times like you mentioned,the dreaded shoulder shot..I have seen it where that was the only shot in thick timber and I would probably pass with the .223.

I'm a go and it's time to start working up loads.Passing is easy for old guys because if you pass,you don't have to pack 'em out.

Elk hunting doesn't mean to me what it once did..I just enjoy getting out with my kids and family.

Jayco

Well gee Logcutter, As long as you are setting the stage for the creation of a monument to your elk hunting and killing ability. I for one don't want to see it unless it's got 375 minimum bone on its head. Yeah and make sure your left arm is broken but casted as well as your right leg and that you are recovering from a nasty case of the clap at the same time caused by hero worship from the local b girls. Geez cain't believe dis sh*t.

Mudhen, that has to be the best pic I've seen in a long time. Sure hope that young man gets to have many a great hunt in his future.

He looks like a real trooper and a great hunting buddy.

Now that's cool! Good for him!

This is a heck of a testimonial of the .223 on Elk.To bad it was a poacher....

JACKSON MAN CHARGED WITH FELONY AND 11 MISDEMEANORS FOR POACHING 11 ELK

JACKSON &#65533; One felony and 11 misdemeanor charges have been filed against a Jackson man for allegedly killing 11 elk Nov. 24, 2003 in the Gros Ventre River drainage northeast of Jackson. Elliot Hudson, 20, could serve up to 21 years in prison and jail if given the maximum combined sentence for the 12 charges.

This poaching incident that unfolded near the Red Hills campground is one of the most egregious Jackson Game and Fish Department officers have ever experienced. At noon that day, a nearby witness heard several rifle shots and saw 13 elk, three of which were wounded, running from an area where he had seen a dark green Jeep Cherokee. The individual reported the incident to G&F officials who found Hudson and his Jeep Cherokee at the scene.

Jackson Game Warden Bill Long found several .223 caliber shells on the ground and 11 dead elk within 35 to 150 yards of the road.


Jayco

Three that were wounded says it all. Thanks for posting that.

My gawd..What rifle "Won't" wound an Elk?

Jayco

Some do it easier than others.

I think everyone focus's on .22,not the expanded width after impact...You show me penetration for your .50 round ball into ballistic gel that exceeds 16"...Show me....

This is 5 Federal Fusions(.223) shot into ballistic gel and penetrated 15" with an expansion to .54 caliber.The .458(out of a 450 Marlin) 400 grain Swift A-frame only penetrated 17".



Show me some data on muzzleloader penetration depth with a .490 ish round ball.

Jayco

So, your little bullet expands to where my bullet starts?

I'm not impressed. My round ball reaches the far side hide. Enough penetration for me. Dead elk without destroying meat.

I used a 30-30 most of my hunting career, because my dad gave me the gun when I was 10 years old. It worked, and I saw no reason to change.

Awhile back I got into muzzleloaders. I find them a lot of fun to shoot, and I like the idea of hunting as our forefathers did. Plus the ML season is during the rut. Not a bad time to hunt.

Those are my reasons for using the guns I use. What are yours for handicapping yourself with such a small bullet?

So if you hunted most of your life with the 30-30,you must appreciate the penetration it gives....

By an NRA contractor...

When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.�

Nuff said.

Jayco

I never get an answer to my question. Why do you restrict yourself with a small bullet?

My reason is i'm not restricting myself through my gun. I restrict myself with only still hunting in deep timber. My shots are close and always double lung shots. The guns I use are all I need.

Do you hunt the same way? Why not use a bigger bullet that would give you more range, and the option to take angled shots?

I'm not busting your chops now, or anybody else who uses a .223. I'm really interested. Is it the challenge? The light recoil? The only gun you own? What?

Restricting yourself to a small bullet is like shooting a solid or a hardcast that does not expand..A .223 expands to a caliber size larger than all pistol calibers and 99% of rifle calibers using a non expanding bullet.

I have Elk hunted since I was 2 years old and started shooting at 10 with my first Elk at 11(memory)..Elk hunting does not mean what it used to to me..I enjoy getting out/teaching my kids and seeing game but lately it is just me and the wife and I don't get down and dirty after them like I used to,not because I can't, but because I really don't want to anymore.

Yeah,I am going to hunt with the .223 next year as a stunt maybe or a "challenge" mostly.We had a 6X6 walk right through camp last year in my sons unit(not mine) and watched it broadside for maybe 90 seconds,time enough I could have grabbed a rifle and blasted it as it stood there less than 100 yards away broadside.

I know where there hanging out but I couldn't go in after them out of my legal unit.

In answer to your question,the smallest caliber I have used on Elk is the .270 and between myself/my grandpa and my dad,I have seen an easy 100 fall to the mighty .270 Win..I started out as a packers son never missing a season and never being skunked.Times have changed since the old days...But life goes on and I love a challenge,a real challenge..Keeps my blood moving.

Jayco

Ok, good enough. Good luck with your hunt.

Every living creature will die: It is unavoidable.It is the process of dieing that is the issue here..Do you prefer to die in your sleep or go through 6 months of chemo on a respirator..some marksman are proficent enough to make a clean kill with whatever is at hand, but if you try to gain approval from the general populous with a method that is not the norm, you are obviosly trying to get support for something that you havent total confidence in and are seeking the approval of others before following through..I suspect you could make a clean, swift, humane kill..but it IS WRONG TO ADVOCATE the use of this caliber to the general populous as a legimate choice for the intended purpose..

I live in Florida so if I ever get the opportunity to go elk hunting I'm not going to be carrying .223. However, I always ask this question when I see the .223 for (insert species here) argument come up. If an arrow fired from a compound traveling 280 fps is so dang deadly, why would a 65-75 grain bonded or mono-metal .224 bullet moving at 3000+ fps not be just as deadly? Do they not both disrupt the supply of oxygen to brain by disabling the lungs thus causing death to visit quickly?

I have helped pack out a fat cow that was dispatched with a .223.
My friend was out looking for a couple coyotes and came across a cow bedded down in a snow squall. He put one through her ears at 80 yards or so, turned off the switch instantly.
Not what I would carry looking for elk, but an effective ear hole caliber.

You never heard of someone wounding an elk with a larger caliber. I witnessed a fellow hit a cow elk with a .30-30 at least five times before it fell. If it had been in timber and moving out do you think it would have made a difference to that cow with what it was wounded?

How far did the wounded elk go in the article? We don't know if they were part of the 11. Apparently several dropped soon after the shot.

thats the whole point !!! .
.223, .243, 30-30 etc..........
if thats what you got, thats what you got... but do not advocate that as an "elk killing machine" BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT and we dont need a bunch of newbies out there thinking they are doing the right thing because , we, on this forum,who are all knowing, say its a good option, so i'm gonna save my pennies and go get an AR and then i can use it on prarie dogs this spring after elk season !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't know anyone that considers a .243 an elk-killing machine. When that .223, 62 grain bullet hits bone, it disentegrates and leaves and injued animal that will likely not be found unless you make a perfect shot. In the real world of elk hunting, you don't always get a 75-yard shot like you do hunting whitetails in your back 40.

Elk hunting is a man's sport and needs a man's gun... LOL

For those who say they've seen bigger calibers wound animals, or it 3-4 shots with a bigger caliber.

Do you think they would have done better if they were using a .223?

The question is....why not use a .223? I say....why not use something bigger?

The only answer i've gotten to why use a .223 was it was a challenge.

the upside of being naive is that one receives the full experience...

Because the arrow likely weighs between 400-500grains with most of it's weight forward of center which increases penetration. the .224 bullet doesn't. The arrow causes massive hemmorage through blood loss and cuts it's way through the animal. The bullet relies on force to penetrate and cause tissue disruption and hemmoraging.
I don't question that someone with a .223 and a TSX/NPT could kill an Elk, it's more of a question of whether or not you should.

I know I am a little late to the party on this one and Elk have no doubt been killed/wounded by calibers from the .223 up through the .458 Win Mag. If someone has no other option and they are hunting for food, I don't take issue with that. I think that under ideal conditions in the hands of an expert it could be done,and has been done.

However, I don't think it is responsible to promote the use of the smallest caliber possible as a gimmick which may encorage other less experianced hunters to think they can do the same under less ideal conditions. I don't care if it is an AR or a heavy barrel bolt gun. I understand the need to challenge yourself, I use a recurve bow for all my archery hunting, and have for all of my life. I would say, if you want a challenge, use a .44 Mag open sight handgun, bow, etc.

I understand also that a lot of Elk are wounded each fall by guys banging away with .300 Ultras and 7mm's that watch too much outdoor channel and think they can kill Elk to 1000 because they shoot X caliber and saw it done on TV. Heck I saw a guy sighting in for Antelope with a .338 Lapua with a 1500 yard range card taped to the gun that couldnt hit a snuff can at 200 yards.
I guess it breaks down to is it legal to do so? Yep, in your state it is. In mine and most others it is not. Can it be used effectively with a bullet like the TSX? Yes. Is it as effective as a .30-06, .300 Win or other "Elk gun" using a TSX? Absolutely not.

Another case of it's not fair to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Let me ask you this..How many different calibers have you seen cleanly take Elk/By that I mean, that you were there and part of the party/crew.Have you ever seen the .222/.22-250 or.223 used on Elk to have an opinion?

I have and they work in the right hands.I am not saying there the all around Elk caliber,I am saying they killed Elk each and every time I saw them used.

Jayco

Do you have any pictures of a 62 grain TSX or any solid copper bullet that disintegrated on bone or even a rock pile?I have shot alot of bullets into semi solid rock and the only two that did not disintegrate was the Barnes solid copper and the North Fork with a solid copper base.

Neither will disintegrate on bone..Guaranteed!!!!



Jayco

I don't understand this "should". If it's legal and one wants to one should. We have too many laws already. If you don't want to don't even if it's legal.

Don’t know as I would use a .223 for elk, but I knew an old man in my youth with an entire garage wall full of deer skulls, each with a hole from a .22 rimfire through the temple. Which was the impetus for my several whitetail kills with a rimfire. Ruger 77/22. All less than 25 yards and all dropped at the shot. Knew several old men who learned to shoot in the Depression by getting an ass whipping if they brought home fewer carcasses than they left with shells for. They would laugh at a lot of the posters here. Would I hunt elk with a .223? Not if I could help it. But if that is what I had and I was hungry, elk would be supper. Likely via headshot from close range. Meat tastes better when you just flip the light switch.

I notice some folks talking down to folks who are saying it can be done have the word magnum or something indicating their preference for the magnums in their handle. Figures. I base my opinion of a hunter on his ability to put game in the truck reliably and with a minimum of fuss. What he uses to do that is his choice, and I could care less. We end up tracking game more than seldom, there is a problem. With the hunter, not the equipment.

If we had elk around here I'd not hesitate to hunt them with a .223. I've killed a bunch of deer wth .22LR with no problem.. pretty sure I could dump elk with my .22 mag. just as easy.

Yep just as well as an Elephant, they also have been killed by a 22LR. would not be my choice. Yes I have used a 5.56 for 20+ years.

Legal is always about regulation and regulation is what is necessary for people that can’t abide responsibility. Although a 223 may be legal I don’t think it is responsible, yet I don’t want to see it legislated.

Laws alway result as a necessity to combat lack of common sense and discipline. It is simple, don’t hunt elk with a 223, there are way too many better choices...

So a .223 is no good for elk but a .25-35 is good grizzly medicine ?

You are a horse’s ass...

You did kill a grizzly with a .25-35 didn't you ? No better choices for grizzlies or are you just above the whole lack of common sense and discipline thing ?

Wow,seems I missed the party..

Shrap....You might want to check the other .223 on elk thread just below....It seems prarie goat had used the.223 on elk more than once and with Mule Deers blessing,as he posted...

How's your head this morning....hahaha

>> this is a very well said and i agree . i also know my 300 or 338 will always do well on elk !

The question posed by the OP is "Why not?"

That is a big difference than "Can it be done?", the proven answer to which is "Of course it can."

For years I hunted elk one day each season using the buckhorn-sighted .44 Mag carbine Dad had given me. In doing so I knew I was giving up opportunities at ranges much over 100 yards, partly because of the iron sights, which I found hard to use, especially when not in bright sunlight, and partly because of external ballistics - trajectory, retained velocity and energy.

It turns out that a .223 and the .44 Mag are not that much different in terms of retained energy, although the .223 has a definite advantage in trajectory and retained velocity.

My .44 load at the time was a Speer 240g JSP launched at 1881fps. Using 1500fpe as a rule of thumb for elk (you have to start somewhere) and 1000fpe for deer, the .44 carbine was a 50-yard 'elk' rife and a 125-yard 'deer' rifle. In the field I limited myself to 100 yards on elk, ignoring the 1500fpe rule of thumb. Years later, using a ballistic calculator, I found that at 7000 feet that load had about 1300fpe at 100 yards. Never did shoot an elk with it as I elected to pass on the one opportunity I had, a big bull face on, right at 100. My hunting buddy had just dropped another bull using my 7mm RM and I figured we had enough work cut out for us.

My Ruger .223 is a MKII with a 1-12 twist. It is a tack driver with 40g bullets but quickly loses interest as weight gets above 50g. A 55g Hornady SP launched at 3300fps starts out with 1330fpe (equal to the .44 Mag at about 95 yards @ 7000ft) and, at 7000 feet, drops below 1000fpe around 135 yards (equal to the .44 Mag at about 170 yards @ 7000ft). The advantage for me is the Ruger is scoped, allowing much more accurate placement.

Jumping up to heavier bullets for the .223, muzzle energy doesn't change that much - 1366 for a Barnes 62g TTSX @ 3150fps, 1343fpe for a 80g Hornady ELD-M. Downrange at 7000ft, the .44 Mag drops below 1000fpe at about 170 yards with 1333fps remaining, the .223 TTSX just past 135yds with 2884fps remaining and the .223 ELD-M just past 255 yards and 2380fps.

Shooting a coyote in the lungs at 4 feet with a .44 Mag revolver, using the same 240g JSP load but at 1467fps due to the shorter barrel, did not provide me with any confidence in the load. If there was any expansion, I couldn't prove it - but it did make caliber-sized holes. Given that, I'd much rather use a 1-9 or faster .223 and 62-80g bullets for elk. The higher impact velocity would ensure expansion and, although an exit wouldn't be guaranteed by any means, I'm sure the penetration and destruction done would be adequate on a broadside.

In situations where a second shot is required (either because I screwed up or I'm shooting backup), I'd be wishing I had something bigger in my hands.

"Can it be done?" Yes - that has been proven many times over.

"Why not?" For me there are multiple reasons. One is legal restrictions in Colorado. Another is I'm a meat hunter and want a cartridge I feel is capable out to (or at least close to) my self-imposed limit of 600 yards, the limit of my practice. I no longer hunt elk with the .44 Mag, .30-30, .375 Win or .45-70 and even my .257 Roberts/120g A-Frame/2947fps load hasn't seen much use in the last few years. My .280 Rem, 7mm RM, .300WM and .338WM see the most use. My last elk was at 487 yards. Although I'm sure I could have hit her easily with a .223, even the 80g ELD-M would be below 800fpe at that range. Instead, a 225g AB launched at 2742fps smacked her broadside at about 2170fps with 2350fpe, creating large entrance and exit wounds and demolishing pretty much everything between them. Not a shot I would have taken with a .223 and I would likely have gone home empty-handed as a result.

I put together a load for Daughter #1 using a .270 and a 150g Nosler ABLR @ 2912fps. Recoil is under 18ft-lbs and at 7000ft energy is 1500fpe past 700 yards and velocity is 2000fps past 800. This is a significant bump up in capability compared to the .308/130TTSX/3045fps load she had been using and much more capable than any .223 load. Last year she passed on a cow elk at 476 lasered yards, preferring to get to her comfort range of 400 with her .308. Even at 476 yards her .308 packed as much punch as a .223/80g at the muzzle. By the time we reached 400 the elk had disappeared into the trees and she went home empty-handed.

Yes it was. Kid has been thru a lot. God Bless Him

THIS!!!

If I'm spending money to go elk hunting I'm taking the best shot at it with the best rifle for it. I think it would be a magnum of .277 Caliber up. I really like .30s But if it's all I had I'd use my .270 with a 150 grain Nosler Partition or Swift A Frame. I wouldn't feel undergunned with my .30-06 with a 180 or 200 grain Partition or Swift. But I've got a 7mm Rem. Mag and a .300 WBY that I'd take with me, the 7 mag would be the back up. I shoot the .300 WBY pretty well and I'm not shy of its recoil. It has a good brake and it's a Mark V and heavy enough to tame the recoil. I like the rifle and I'm pretty accurate with it. When hunting really big game I figure bigger IS better. Gimme the .300 WBY. Save the .223 for coyotes and deer.

Not a problem with the .223 if you don't mind chasing elk after the shot..

Well let's see.....the elk I've been in on that were shot in the lungs with a 223 went about 30 yards a piece. Similar to what's happened when elk were shot in the same place with 270s and 300s and such.
The cow I shot in the neck with a 223 went about 30 yards also, but that's because she was rolling down a steep hill, dead.

Someone on here was using a 60gr NBT with a 223 on elk. Was it this guy ^^^^

No.

I started this thread seven years ago when I bought two. 223's to use hunting...I also bought a couple boxes of Noslers for the task...there are other bullets that would work fine,but I prefer Noslers for what they do...

If my hunting was like alot here,I would choose one of my other calibers,but it's not...I'm in the hills all summer long not far from my house and see where the game is and what terrain there hanging in..I really don't care if I ever shoot another elk..

Knowing the limitations of the 223 over say a 30-06 or one of my larger more appropriate rounds,I know I can't take some shots that I have before with bigger rounds...like I said,I don't really care if I get another one but I'm game to go with my boy and help him get another one plus he has lots of help for packing them out..

I've seen elk shot with smaller calibers than the 223 and know that it will work just fine if the shooter does his part with the knowledge of what it takes...Hell,they shoot the big bears with the 223 so it's fine for elk...

THIS!!!

If I'm spending money to go elk hunting I'm taking the best shot at it with the best rifle for it. I think it would be a magnum of .277 Caliber up. I really like .30s But if it's all I had I'd use my .270 with a 150 grain Nosler Partition or Swift A Frame. I wouldn't feel undergunned with my .30-06 with a 180 or 200 grain Partition or Swift. But I've got a 7mm Rem. Mag and a .300 WBY that I'd take with me, the 7 mag would be the back up. I shoot the .300 WBY pretty well and I'm not shy of its recoil. It has a good brake and it's a Mark V and heavy enough to tame the recoil. I like the rifle and I'm pretty accurate with it. When hunting really big game I figure bigger IS better. Gimme the .300 WBY. Save the .223 for coyotes and deer.

Nuff said......

Yeah. I was reading through some search results, didn’t think about how old the thread might be. So sorry you had to see it. Nice name calling, by the way. See a lot of that from people on the internet.