Sad situation just occurred here in S/W Montana.
Last Friday, November 14th, a very large herd of Elk were "flushed" off a private ranch where they had been holed up since August.
A few years back the Elk began using the ranches in the vicinity, all fall/winter, as a refuge from Wolves.
Anyway the Elk headed off the ranch for some unknown reason and a firing line/gauntlet was quickly set-up by lurking Hunters.
The resulting "shoot-out" resulted in Hunters firing in the direction of other firing Hunters and tragically a 48 year old man was struck in the face by a high powered Rifle bullet!
Luckily, the Hunter is still alive.
Word is he lost his nose and jaw and will need steel plates to reconstruct his face.
This incident occurred three miles from my home!
I have reported here for three years now on this relatively new phenomenon of the Wolf wary Elk taking refuge on valley floor ranches from August through the winter, over the last few years.
Now the situation has taken a sad turn.
One report relayed how some of the Hunters began taking refuge from flying bullets behind their vehicles during the "Hunt"!
Again a very sad situation this - on several levels.
Sadly, as of yesterday and today, the Elk have now returned to the ranches in question.
Thanks for nothing rmWf!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Sounds familiar. Same kind of 'hunting' goes on in our backyard too.

http://helenair.com/news/local/upda...675aaeb-7d62-58bd-827f-e709e1f1ab4c.html

http://helenair.com/news/local/hunt...4049ceb-b3eb-5d20-91fc-297e0d3f89c2.html

MontanaMarine: Thanks for the links to the informative articles.
They describe what is becoming of Elk "Hunting" in Montana.
Sad.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Shaking head....

Yeah, that's sad.

Damn woofs caused a guy to get shot in the face?

Keep pissing in the wind varmintguy

I keep hearing about the wolves running the elk off their normal range and keeping them holed up. I don't think the answer to this is to trespass, bump the elk, then get shot at by other hunters. People don't think rationally when it comes to elk. Have seen it too many times.

I will say that if hunters are shooting in my direction, knowing I am there, they are taking their own lives into their hands.

Rosco, you won't think it's very FF when wolves have overrun Utah and destroyed or chased off the elk population there. Maybe you'll begin to see how absurd this whole wolf fiasco has been.

It doesn't even in the most miniscule way detract from the morons blazing away with their rifles, regardless of who or what they hit.

I said the same thing you did,minus the estrogen.

There is no hunting on the property where the elk congregate, but wolves pushed them on there. They step off and immediately get shot up, but the wolves pushed them back.

Got it.

Sounds pretty reckless to me, might even be grounds for criminal charges if they can determine who fired the shot that struck the hunter..I've hunted Elk for many years and have yet to see an Elk worth getting into this kind of situation over !

Those dang wolves!!!


Are they responsible for ISIS too? And illegal immigration?

What about Obamacare?!?!

I now hunt wolves [unsuccessfully] in what used to be Elk country because of the lack of other hunters. I also prefer wilderness areas due to lack of ATVs.

Also Elk are heavy and difficult to pack out.

mike r

And some us of wonder why so many ranchers post their land.

rosco1: Indeed this situation would NEVER or extremely rarely had occurred before the Canadian Wolf introduction to Montana!
The Wolves indeed are causing continuous stress and drastically changing the habits for our Elk herds!
The majority of the blame certainly goes to the "Hunter" who got excited to see Elk finally coming off of private ground and let his excitement greatly diminish the due care and caution a Hunter should always invoke when shooting at game.
But if you think the Wolf re-introduction had nothing to do with the situation then you are simply a fool!
Yeah the damned woofs are partially to blame for this near fatal shooting!
Thank for nothing rmWf!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

No, not the "majority," the totality.

Lvmiker: Much of the Elk and Moose Hunting opportunities in the western part of Montana have been greatly DIMINISHED since the introduction of Canadian Wolves here!
I archery Hunted a secret drainage in SW Montana every September/October for 25 years and always had Elk to Hunt - now there are NO Elk there and the Moose population is next to nothing - but we got WOLVES!
Nothing in my secret spot but the occassional Wolf track and some scat with Moose hair in it.
Sad.
I am happy to see the increased tags for Wolves this year - if nothing else the greens in the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks know which side of their bread thats buttered.
After years of not selling out the Elk licenses and much lost revenue they are now trying to relieve the Elk decimation by selling more Wolf tags.
Anyone that thinks Wolves are not to blame for reductions in Hunting opportunities in western Montana is simply not paying attention (or is stupid!).
Thanks for nothing rmWf!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Some people adapt, others complain on the innernets. Probably why you always see the same guys with big bulls year after year and the same guys complaining year after year.

HuntnShoot: You are absolutely 100% right on!
I pray the folks that live in and Hunt in Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Oregon and Arizona don't get HIT by the transplanted Candian Wolves like we here in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming have.
Those Canadian Wolves eat everything including Bighorns, Moose, Elk, Deer and I have even seen the Wolves chasing Antelope!
Last week we saw a black Wolf in the middle of a cultivated field not 6 miles from our county courthouse chasing Mule Deer!
"Moron" is indeed an apt descrition of the perpetrator of that harm to another human being.
I just got a phone call that relayed the bullet in question entered the victims nose, smashed through his cheek bone just below the eye and exited by his ear.
I just can't imagine the pain that poor soul endured (will continue to endure!).
More later - headed out for wildlife viewing.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

If there's so many wolves, why don't you go kill some?

This has to be near the top in the running for Dumbest Post of the Year...

Sad story but it's the wolves fault? Hunting pressure had nothing to do with to why the elk were there? You got all those hunters lined around a fence line. Do wolves stop at fences like the hunters? Years ago talking to a game warden with a ranch hand in colorado. The warden was parked high on a hill overlooking the same kind of situation. Elk on private property and hunters up and down the fence line. The warden said to the ranch hand,"don't let those elk get off the property. If they do we'll have a cluster f**k". And that's what they had in Mt a cluster f**k. A wolf didn't pull that trigger a careless did.

Please excuse momentary hijack. Ironic to me is that those who routinely have access and hunt those ranches claim that their public land hunts were their easiest hunts ever.

A little more to your point - talked to a manager of a large ranch who said they would be safe here throughout all hunting seasons if they stayed. He said they never do.

Check the "wolverine thread" down in trapping for it's competitors.

Exactly.

I don't understand how wolves pushed the elk onto a private ranch. Wolves don't follow property lines. If the food was there, wouldn't the wolves mosey on down and eat on the ranch land? What makes more sense to me is that the elk were avoiding the hunters that do follow the property lines.

If I am wrong or my logic is flawed please let me know.

Micky
You are correct. If there are hunters on the private land, there are going to be a lot less than on public land, and they are generally non resident hunters looking for trophy elk, and are not too interested in shooting wolves. Also, it wouldn't take the wolves long to figure out they could miss ALL the hunters by going nocturnal.
All summer, VarmintGuy was claiming that seeing thousands of elk on farmers fields was proof that the wolves have decimated the elk herds. Nobody could seem to convince him that if there are thousands of elk around, they haven't been wiped out.

So now wolves are shooting elk hunters in the face?

Yer' killin' me here, VG.........


Casey

Amazing how those wolves respect no trespassing signs.

Seems to me the outrage here should be placed squarely on the criminal stupidity of a negligent shooter - note I did not say "hunter". The human behavior displayed in this incident was outrageous!

Yup, I believe that elk there may be avoiding wolves and other hunters. Yup, I know too well and too personally what it is like hunting in competition with wolves (and amidst griz, as well). Yup, I know that the elk where Canadian wolves were transplanted to have seriously changed their behavior patterns. But such changes are no excuse for inexcusable negligence. And dang it, here in WY they robbed me of an opportunity to practice population control on those wolves by yanking tags this year. With the plentitude of wolf tracks in the elk woods, surely I ought to be able to get a shot - if only I had a tag.

Notice how this herd of elk got shot at, and then went back onto the safe ground?

Fuggin' wolves.. someone needs to take their guns away.

Meanwhile, VarmintGuy lost out on a major sale of rimfire ammo because he was posting on the Campfire when he should have been driving around western Montana looking in all the stores. A friend was recently in Missoula and one store was putting out piles of .22 Long Rifles.

I also have it on good authority that the wolves we got from Canada were a pure wilderness strain that refuses to enter private land.

Knowing VG, if it were a hundred boxes for sale, it would be described as "thousands"..

In southeastern British Columbia we complain about the incursion of Montana wolves. Strangely, they don't seem to be pushing the elk on to private land here; at least not on to my land. Perhaps some welcome signs would help.
A few years back, many of the ramchers put up (subsidized) eight foot fences to keep elk out of their hayfields. Prior to this, a field adjacent to my place was a popular spot for "hunting" elk. So popular, in fact, that it was hunted day and night. There were times when there would be upwards of a half dozen hunters surrounding that field waiting for the elk to come in. I would not have been in the least surprised if someone had been hit in the crossfire. Now, with the elk fences in place and a liberal cow/calf season for the last half dozen years, the field is a much quieter and safer place. The range is still a bit overgrazed in spite of a 70% reduction in elk numbers but there appears to be no explanation for this. The reduction in elk numbers is easily explained though; it's those Montana wolves! GD

Not exactly, the guy got shot in the face because one of Travis' retard "range buddies" flung a slug in his general direction, and because the woundee was stupid enough to be there in the first place. As dumb as the shooter was though, apparently he was smart enough to stuff the proper ammo into his rifle.

I'm sure the whole lot has minnesota DNA

Typically private property is that terrain which was more conducive to settlement during the homestead era. That means it is usually flatter and more accessible to motorized vehicles than is USFS. And a rancher can drive his ATV anywhere he likes on his private property.

Cattlemen patrol private lands for wolves and they are shot on sight year round.

Wolves quickly learn where it is safe to tread and where it is not.

Elk quickly learn where to go to avoid wolves.

I have been hunting unit 32A in Idaho since 1960. The particular area of USFS we hunt has been devoid of wolves until this year. We have been very successful for deer and elk just off the ridges and in the high terrain for over fifty years.

But this season, the wolves had gotten into this area, and they have dogged the elk herds off of the mountains.

One local fellow watched through his spotting scope opening morning as guest hunters on low lying private property wounded four bulls and allowed them to escape over a ridgeline, And those hunters managed to harvest fourteen bulls.

On any typical year the elk would not have been in those low areas in any significant numbers until the high country had become inaccessible due to snow depth.

It has been stated by people more knowledgeable than I, that a wolf will average one elk kill per week. On top of that, calving rates drop significantly in an elk herd which is being harassed by wolves.

Elk populations which had been growing steadily since the '40s in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, are now in decline. Hunter success rates have declined in all three states. And long time successful guide service businesses have been bankrupted.

Thank you very much Dr Hornocker, and the liberal agenda which led to the introduction of the Canadian Grey Wolf to our environments.

Take_a_pee has a new user name.. How many is this now?

Idaho Shooter,

Elk have been migrating to non- or limited-hunting ranches in this particular valley in Montana for years, long before wolves moved into the area a few years ago. And wolves are still very uncommon on the east side of the valley, where most of the "low country elk" have always shown up.

Two years ago I hunted a ranch in the next valley over, where a pack of wolves had been hanging out for more than a year. It was the second week of the rifle season and a big park at the TOP of the ranch (not down in the valley) was where a bunch of elk had been "hiding" since bow season. They stayed right in that area, for the several days four of us hunted the ranch. We saw the wolf pack on the second day, very near where we killed two of our elk, before and after we saw the pack. (Unfortunately, we didn't get a shot at the wolves.)

The elk were on the ranch because the south and west sides border public land, within half an hour of what passes for a big town in Montana, and the public land was crawling with hunters. Those elk were willing to put up with a pack of eight wolves and four human hunters, rather than risk the bunches of public-land hunters off the ranch.

There are a bunch of factors affecting how elk habits have changed over the past half-century, but wolves are only one. From what I've seen, less hunting access to many ranches, plus more hunting pressure on public land, often have far more effect than wolves.

there is no doubt that wolves have affected elk numbers in certain areas. the east and west fork of the bitterroot are good examples, as is the gardiner herd in the park. But in many areas the elk simply stay on private ground because they don't get hunting preasure. And what is on those private fields? Green, irrigated alfalfa long into the late fall. When everything else is dry and brown these fields are still green. Back east I think they call these a food plot. The quality of most elk hunters has sadly declined as well. Many are lazy and won't get away from the truck. They sit and look at elk on private ground, hoping the elk will leave and they can drive to them. They are usually back home for dinner an hour before dark. Then they wonder why they didn't get one.

John, I realize my experiences represent a microcosm of elk habitat. And I can only report what happened in this area. But I am intimately familiar with this microcosm.

Hunting pressure has not changed significantly over the last ten years. The private property onto which the herd moved this year has been owned by JR Simplot for over forty years and been locked off from the public for that time. And I find it interesting that the elk herd moved onto the valley floor this year long before rifle season opened.

Fifteen hundred feet in elevation below us the terrain is laced with old logging roads, all open to ATV and vehicular traffic. Usually the high hunting pressure in that area pushes elk up the mountain, not down.

I have not seen archery hunters, or the few hunters with early rifle/cow tags move the herds in years past.

We hunt an area of about six sq miles, a four hour horse back ride from the nearest road. The only way in is by foot or horse. Very few foot hunters will work hard enough to climb this high. In five days at camp we only saw three other hunters as they passed through, making a day ride; and one man on foot.

We had fresh mud the first day in which to observe tracks and new snow on two subsequent days. In an area which has been home to more than thirty head of elk in years past, this year we saw tracks of four individuals widely separated and brushed up.

But for the first time ever, in this area, we encountered wolf tracks. And wolf tracks were omnipresent throughout the six sq miles.

I wish I had taken my Foxpro FX-3 in the horse pack, we might have been able to reduce the predator population. My buddy called for a while with a rabbit call. And judging from the squawking of magpies in the canyon below us, a wolf did respond. He circled down wind of us and then the magpies squawked all the way back up the canyon as (apparently) the wolf returned back the way he had come.

It happens here too. Surrounding herds on open ground and keeping them bunched as a gauntlet forms. Real classy......

I think the wolves have caused a decline in the elk populations in some parts of Wyoming, and wolves often drive elk into nonforage areas, that can't sustain them. But as to hunter stupidity, this has increased, I think more so due to the availability of ATV's and UTV's. Many times I've seen UTV's packed with big overweight hunters on a trail, and have heard several shots shortly from their direction, as they had driven quickly down a ways past near where I was scouting . Obvious "drive by" shooting at elk or deer. Those vehicles give some hunters the sense of hunting without the effort. Very dangerous.
I've come to the attitude that more National Forest should be made unavailable to vehicle traffic of any kind. If I see more than a couple hunters, I'm out of there. I just don't take chances.

Wyogal: I think your observations are correct.
For instance this past weekend was the end of our Deer/Elk Big Game seasons here in Montana and I took the opportunity to just go observe game and what was what!
I had filled both my Antelope and Deer tags and have plenty of meat in my freezer as I received some "pay" in the form of Moose meat and Elk meat for helping out packing game etc.
Anyway the Elk hereabouts are mostly ALL on private ranches and I drove to 6 different ranches with large herds of Elk on them just to enjoy seeing them.
This "last" weekend had the Hunters literally "patrolling" the edges of these ranches in their pick-up trucks hoping for Elk movement!
And the game wardens were patrolling the Hunters and the ranches as well!
And in one instance the warden had his truck hidden in a hay lot with his spotting scope attached to his window and he was watching the "firing lines" and the "gauntlets" from his hidden position.
I am sad to see "Big Game Hunting" reduced to this crummy situation, and the increased "risk" to concentrated Hunters.
I hold both the greens and the rmWf partially to blame for this new set of circumstances.
Sad... and dangerous both.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: I estimate that I saw at least 2,500 Elk on these various ranches.
I could only accurately count one giant herd and it came out at 480 Elk - I was able to get high on a ridge and look down on this ranch bunch.
The other Elk herd numbers were estimated as the Elk were so bunched and concentrated it was tough to accurately count them.

222Rem: Thanks for the report from Oregon.
Its my understanding that the Wolves have not yet "over-populated" Oregon as yet like they have in Montana, Wyoming and Idaho?
Are YOUR concentrated Elk herds due to cultivated crops concentrating Elk in places or to something else.
By the way my good friend from Twin Bridges, Montana headed out to western Oregon this fall to Hunt Elk between Seaside, Oregon and Tillamook, Oregon - he was successful with his bow by the way.
He had never been out there before.
He also had never seen a "Blackberry thicket" - he became so scratched up on his legs, thighs and forearms that his children laughed at him when he got back home!
Looking forward to your reply.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG, it depends on who you talk too, but IMO we've already got way too many wolves for the BG populations to support, given the cougar and bear are free from hound hunting. I don't know at what point we'll reach the point of no return, but the wolves have definitely made their presence known in NE Oregon.

Yes, many of our herds head for the large ranches once pressured. I personally hate seeing some of these huge ranches tie up the country that used to be several smaller ranches, but from a conservation standpoint, at least the elk have a refuge to maintain their numbers and catch their breath. If counting all the different elk seasons (some overlap), they're chased about 8 months out of the year. When combined the depredation, hard winters, "damage control" tags, and the bottom-feeding poachers, it's amazing we've still got any herds left at all.

I can laugh at your friend's report, having grown up on that side of the state and knowing exactly what he encountered. Those black berry thickets and poison oak both thrive over there. I applaud your buddy for actually tackling the brush. Many just road hunt or glass from landings into clear cuts.

Don't blame Minnesota for the wolves! We have them here, and seem to have plenty of deer. Our party of 10 took 9 deer - i was the only one eating tag soup ;-(

I've seen elk in the crossfire many times in Utah. I've walked into a herd and shot a cow, only to have Joe Public open fire from > 600 yds away, and wound/kill several animals, but tag only the closest one to the road. Park the truck and WALK to get away from the bozos.

I don't care for wolves, but the guy getting shot in the face was not the result of wolves, but idiot hunters/shooters who don't know the basics of hunting............

To many yahoos rd hunting. Get off yer fat azz and hunt not shoot. Hanging out in your truck until animals move off a ranch is lame.

I have always been willing to trade better odds for a piece of tranquility. Being successful is not as important as the quality of the trip.

Fortunately, our MT legislature is introducing bills to address this problem, so I'm sure the whole matter will be solved soon.