So the other night I am watching long range pursuits, and young hunter (teens) shot and harvested an elk at supposedly 1375 yards. I had a knot in my stomach just watching, for me this was an unethical shot. Sure he took the shot and killed the animal, but it seemed more for show than in sportsmanship. I know most hunter aren't shooting at these distances but it got me thinking, What are people using to guide (ethical) shots on elk and deer. And what I really mean is this. I generally want to deliver 1800 lbs of energy for elk and 800-900 lbs of energy for deer. For elk I prefer a bullet with a sectional density of at least .250 - .260 if it shoots well in my rifle with a high BC. Plus that bullet needs to be able to penetrate without separation. So I'm shooting a 160 Accu 7mmSTW, 200 Fusion 338 Fed (closer ranges), and 165 TBBT 30-06 for elk. Plus I'm not personally comfortable shooting more than 400 yards in any of these rifle, although I'm sure the rifles/bullets can be effect beyond this limit.

What thoughts and limits have you put on your elk rifle/bullet set-up if any? or did you just say "180 Part 30-06 works for everyone I know so I'll use it, " or maybe "this magazine says I need a 210 TTX in a 338 mag.."

And I'm curious what the 243 elk hunters use to guide them, and others who use less popular elk calibers? And yes shot placement is the most important aspect.


Thanks

I think people generalize elk hunting to much in the constant elk caliber, cartridge, bullet threads.

What I would find acceptable for watching a saddle or trail may not be acceptable when slipping through a North slope looking for a bedded bull. I have no problem shooting, or having a kid use a 243 with a good bullet on the earlier but would not do it on the later.

The Village idiot from Oregon will be along shortly, but I have never been able to see a difference on animals between the likes of a 308, 270,30-06 etc. Maybe somebody that has been around more kills than me has, but I haven't seen it.

I have shot elk with a variety of cartridges ranging from .270 Winchester up to .375 H&H. I tend to use heavy for caliber bullets with high BCs, the exceptions being in the 9.3s where I use 250 ABs and the .375 H&H where I used 260 ABs. Although I did shoot one bull at almost 400 yards, it's been quite a few years since I have seen a shot much over 300 yards that I was comfortable taking.

About 300 yards is tops for me but I bet I haven't shot 3 elk at that distance. I'm like SLM I haven't see any differnce in killing ability from a muzzle loader to 44 mag up to 7 mag.

I think hunters should take any shot that they are comfortable with and confident of making. But far too many "shooters" are shooting at long distance for bragging rights and do not care if they hit game that is not recovered.

If there were actual consequences for wounding and not killing an elk cleanly, far fewer stunt shots would be taken. There aren't very many stunt shots taken in big game hunting situations where a trophy fee is charged for every animal that leaks some blood, like in most of Africa.

For me, in normal hunting situations, I would be very reluctant to take a shot further than 300 yards on a elk. I'd get closer or pass on the shot.

Biggest factors are my own abilities,confirmed through shooting,and circumstances,including distance, conditions of wind and terrain,elk location,time of day,etc.

Rifles and loads don't merit much consideration because I won't be there in the first place with a cartridge and bullet that I don't know, for sure, will work. I'm not into "guessing", or finding the lowest common denominator in terminal performance.

I think people need to stop watching those half baked shows.

Hunt how you want, what you want, where you want. Just because someone has a HD video camera and editing software doesn't make them magically worth of consideration or conversation.

or emulation...

I like spotting an elk at some distance because then if I can approach to within range then that is a real rewarding kill. I feel like I've earned those. For me the essence of the hunt is to try to use some skills to navigate the terrain and wind to move into range. If they bust me that is perfectly OK. I'm successful often enough. My own idea of fair chase is that some amount of stealth or skill ought to be involved so that it is not just a harvest.

I got tired of moving tree-stands, spotting scopes, 16 pound rifles or needing to be 10 feet higher or 10 feet to the left.
I went full uber and got a hot air balloon.
I plan on stretching my "hunt" to the one mile line.
Diggity......


P.S. I have a friend that has pretty much gotten bored with "normal" elk hunting at "normal" yardage. He had a rifle built for "long range hunting". He's thrown a fair amount of lead................
No jerky yet.
I cringe.
I won't go with him either, but that's me.

I can't comment on Elk because I've not been blessed to hunt one, but you did mention deer.

I've hunted whitetail since the age of 10; I'm 44 now and I've killed more than the average hunter in my area. I'm not an expert, I just put the time in and I'm not afraid of walking.

I'm comfortable with shooting out to 300 yds with 400 yds being my max. I'm not properly equipped or practiced to go further.

In all my time hunting, mostly in timber, I've only killed two or three at my 300 yd comfort zone.

I have zero interest in long range hunting or playing sniper.

899 yards is MY personal yardstick on headshots for elk. Go just ONE yard over that, and the guys here will give you a big ol' ration of chit......

Is the balloon equipped with a winch and 2 miles of wire rope?

Yeah, but it's still not as big as you deserve.....

My personal yardstick has nothing to do with energy, SD, or any of that because I routinely kill elk with slow moving hunks of lead that fail on all counts. My limit is my ability to place the bullet.

My yardstick for taking an elk is to make it as difficult as I possibly can on me. I do not own an atv, or animals to hunt with. I walk in or backpack in to hunt. Stay out all day or for a week. I carry no gps, no phone, no radio or sat phone. Lately, I've even been leaving the bino's in the truck too. I just carry my weapon, some food/water and my boots - minimal gear. I've killed a pile of elk; making it as difficult as possible or hunting a new and unknown area has been a way to keep elk hunting fun and fresh.

For me, few things are as rewarding as going into a new area stone cold, sniffing around a little, reading some sign, figuring out what they're doing and then getting into elk.

Being up close and personal so that you can see the reaction on their faces when you fool them or waking them in their bed brings me more enjoyment than the killing. That part I now leave to my son just so we don't miss out on all the fun that packing one out really is

Interesting perspective. I too hunt out of a backpack, not to make it harder, but because that's how I like to hunt. I think getting back in a few miles actually makes it easier to kill an elk. Just harder to get it back to the truck.

I'd way rather have a 600 yard shot at an unaware bull, with a .243....... than a 100 yard shot at a running bull with a .375..... but that's just me.

I KNOW what my limits are in placing a bullet on stationary targets. How? I shoot them all the time... to the tune of 1000+ rounds a year. I have no F'n clue how to hit schitt running 30 MPH through the timber..... because there's no way to simulate that shot. I bet dollars to fhugkin donuts that 10 times as many critters are wounded and lost every year to moving shots, than to pokes over five hundred yards.....

All this talk of 'ethics' and 'long range' cracks me up..... I know WAY more guys that will take moving shots than 'long range' shots. But I don't know ANYONE who practices moving shots. Ethics is a legally launched projectile through both lungs..... it's not a range, or caliber, or bullet, or energy..... you twat-cicles need to get that straight.

And everyone knows that at 900 yards the bullet would have just bounced. That's why having as long of a barrel as possible is a good thing. Makes you closer to them.

Doesn't a longer barrel also guarantee longer-term endorsement contracts?

Of course. Let's you put a longer sticker of said endorser on your barrel too

the older I get the more pride I take in getting in close and placing a shot exactly,where I want it too hit ,rather than being mostly concerned with just "GETTING and ELK".
Ive taken most of the slightly over two dozen elk Ive killed in the last 45 plus years with a 340wby or 375 H&H, most at well under 150 yards, and while I practice shooting out to 500 yards Ive rarely seen elk out at 250 yards or longer ranges.
just "GETTING and ELK has ceased to mean a great deal to me, but getting a good elk, or helping a friend get a trophy, that I got into close range with before shooting has become more important.
I recently purchased a BLR in 450 marlin and while that might seem a step backwards to some I look back over 45 plus years and can,t think of many chances Ive had that that lever gun would not have handled admirably.
as Ive stated before my late hunting partner used a blr/358 win for decades with zero issues

My personal criteria is close enough that the bullet is doing at least 1800-2000 FPS, I am able to reliably judge the wind, and am in a position where I can hold within the vitals. Offhand, huffing and puffing after climbing a mountain, that range may be pretty close. Lying prone over a bag at the edge of a treeline watching a field with light winds and it goes much further.

No.
I shoot, go home, then call a friend with the GPS cords.




P.S. They bring the winch.
Her name is Tiffiny.

Unless I'm shooting a large diameter flat point bullet or a patched round ball, I insist on expansion. I limit myself to whatever distance the bullet I've selected, fired from the platform I've selected, reliably expands. I've used some lead core pointy-point bullets that can't be counted on below about 2200 fps impact speed. Others expand down to about 1800 fps. The new Nosler Long Range Accubonds are supposed to expand clear down to 1300 fps. I also limit myself to whatever distance I think I can reliably hit a big grapefruit. That leaves enough margin of error for a couple things to go slightly wrong and still give a clean killing shot.

Taken together, those eliminate a lot of shots for me that I hear about other people taking just as a matter of course. The best long-ish range rifle I ever owned would give me a 4 inch group at 600 yard shooting prone if I wasn't fighting wind and mirage. For now that's my absolute limit. I don't currently own anything I'd shoot that far with.

With a handgun or muzzleloader I limit myself to about 75 yards. I'm not shooting past that. With a straight walled case, say .45-70 or the like, I might go to 150 yards if the gun delivers grapefruit sized groups at that range.

The only specific number I use as a rule of thumb is requiring a .270 or higher SD on any jacketed bullet I expect to expand.

Tom

Pics?

This is all why I enjoy hunting with young kids so much. They don't know SD from an STD. They just enjoy the hunt and don't try to over complicate things.

When you take them shooting they don't stress over a .67549 group vs a 2.67549 group. Just give them "stuff" to shoot and it doesn't take long to figure out what their limits are.

I think on cup and core bullets foot pounds energy should equal twice animals weight on impact. Sectional density of .25 or more. Monolithic should impact animal at 2000 fps or more. The monolithic can have less s.d. and foot pounds energy. Another factor that is huge for elk is time after shot available for tracking and carcass processing and ambient temperature. The bigger they are the quicker they sour.

I agree with you SLM.
Fun shouldn't be complicated.

I like to use my suppressed AR with 55gr FMJs at 1000+ yards. Just "make it rain" bullets down on them with a couple of 30rnd magazines. One will drop eventually. YMMV

Wageslave...I bet it is fun helping her get in the truck!

My gating factors are as foillows:

1. Confidence in my ability to make the shot.
2. Confidence in the bullet for the particular situation, including angle and range.

If I'm not sure I can make the shot, no shoot.

Likewise, if I'm not confident the bullet construction and retained velocity and energy are adequate to the task at hand, no shoot.

The yardstick is easy...unless you know with a 90% probability, that you can hit the boiler room, first shot, cold barrel...don't shoot.

It's that simple.

Ninety percent, because no one is perfect,and every shot at big game carries some risk once the bullet leaves the barrel.

If you can't run fast enough to catch up to it, stick your finger in its ass then kink your finger and catch it ....then it isn't ethical. Period.

What if you're left handed?

I got a looooong pole, Brother..........

I do not consider myself a long range hunter. I will practice out to 500 yards this summer until I get it learned for the occasional Axis that presents himself at such distance.

As mentioned in another thread, in years past when meat was very important to our economy, I did shoot several elk at 600.. But the last years, with less pressure for meat in the freezer, those shots have been turned down.. Plus now I have more time to hunt rather than just weekends and after work.. I would say I feel very comfortable with a 400 yard shot, as I shoot at that distance very often..

I always thought it wasn't how long your barrel is, it's how much powder you have in the cartridge.

This.

I keep it simple. Whatever it takes to put a big hole through both lungs. Preferably two holes in the hide too.

Two holes? I did that! The first elk I killed was a ranged 400 yards. I was using my Short Fat Seven before short and fat was in; except for some of our wives. I gave the hide to a budding taxidermist. It was a perfect broadside shot. He told me there was a 6" bruise on one side and a 3" bruise on the other side. The Nosler Partition 160 grain took off the top of the heart. Starting velocity was 3,100 feet per second.

Blueranger, My wife and I have "cleanly" taken elk at 400 yards. Under good conditions, range known, and with a good solid rest, I think that we'd both be comfortable to around 500. memtb

I've had much debate with a few folks I hunt with over the last couple years about this very topic, mostly because of kids we're trying to shepherd into elk hunting. I grew up in an undergunned household, by today's elk-hunting standard, and my first elk hunts I carried a 257 with 100gr PT's at at book speed of 2830. I doubt they even got that. I didn't get elk with that gun, but my dad did.

I know a 243 can easily get beyond that 2830 with 100gr Partitions. I also know that a 6mm 100gr Partition is great elk medicine when good hunting and good shooting are part of the equation. I also don't think that handicapping youngsters with something that leaves little room for error when it comes to shot angles/placement/distance is a good idea.

Certainly, in the hands of someone who knows what elk fever feels like and can handle the pressure and can pull off a good shot during less than ideal circumstances, a 243/6mm with appropriate bullets is just fine for elk hunting, or more to the point, elk killing and recovery. I don't like handicapping kids though with the same setup.

We've not seen elk during the hunting season the last 2 years, so there have been no successes or failures to note, but I have convinced a couple folks to move to a 308 and 150gr bullets for their youngsters' hunting when elk is in mix. There are other steps between a 243 and 308 that I think would have been just fine, but other circumstances came into play, and 308's were chosen.

Handloading and bullet casting have been very handy in these circumstances for getting the kids started with very reduced loads so they get much trigger time and get comfortable with a rifle while dealing with vastly reduced recoil and noise. One youngster who will be 14 this year, and a small kid, has graduated to 308 nicely, and we've been working him toward 150 gr bullets, adjusting bullet weight, powder charge, velocity with each step. He has a knack for shooting, and loves it, so it hasn't been a chore to help him progress. So fun to watch! Excited at the prospect of doing this same process for my own in the future.

Bringing this back to topic: 243 is plenty good and ethical in the hands of a knowledgeable hunter and shooter when elk are being pursued. It is a handicap for those who are more green, and IMO, it is a ticket to a rodeo. Far better to give a youngster a gun with more bullet weight, momentum, and surface area, as long as they can shoot it proficiently.

Same thoughts here. I do my own load work and shoot the rifles out as far as I can all year round, from on the ground or the actual positions I will get to use in the field. I have a pretty good idea come October how far the rifle in my hands will get it done. Different days (wind) will stop me from taking a shot I could have easily made with no wind.

I'm from the midwest and close to a thousand miles from any elk I can legally hunt. Though I've hunted initially about every other year it has become about an every five year thing of late over the thirty years I've hunted them. Also being a general gun loony, I went up the cartridge latter fast graduating with the 340 Wea, all of which I blame Ross Siefried for.

I shoot a lot but my immediate locale limits me to five hundred yards on a farmers field so that is what I became comfortable with though depending on circumstances I would consider six hundred on a hunt. I am not in the game with some of the "long rangers" here (like scenarshooter and others) but wanted to maximize my chances on a five to seven day hunt on public land wherein I may see one or two bulls briefly during that time. If any. I also bought into, "placing a bullet in the heart-lung complex on a big animal from any angle" concept so used heavier "X's" and Nos Part's mostly finally settling on the 210-gr TSX. In review though, no Tx Heart Shots were taken or other extreme angles either. Most were broadside.

Of the eleven bulls taken with the 340, most were over three hundred yards with the longest at LRF'd 475. Two cows were taken at forty and about eighty yards with. 45 Colt and a 45/70 respectively. I did take one bull at about 400 with a 30/06.

Long way of saying, my criteria for "go-no go," is range to animal; presentation and attitude of same; possibilities of closing the distance; wind; firearm and bullet I'm using and my comfort level with any one or all of the above.

Thus I've not wounded and lost an animal. The longest distance from hit to "DRT" were the cows, one with a 45 hard cast through her ribs and the other with the 45/70 which made me rethink hard casts for soft, thin-skinned animals.

George, you've piqued my curiosity: what bullet/load/gun were you using in 45 Colt on that DRT cow through the ribs? I bet that and the 45/70 hunt are good stories.

The "DRT" was a little tongue-in-cheek 😎. Both the 45 Colt and 45/70 threw big hardcasts that blew through the chests like a hot poker through butter. Both animals went 100-200 hundred yards but luckily it wasn't densely brushed country. No surprise--tough animals that have a "small" hole poked through them without breaking down bones, leak slowly, and can go a long ways.

They were DRT but only after they traveled a good distance.

Then you meant 'DOT'. Dead over there.......

DSOT 😏 -- "dead somewhere over there." Not good.

DYW. Dead yonder ways.....

George,

I'd like to try flinging big chunks of lead from a 45 Colt rifle. My dad has some replicas. I may inherit one. I imagine a 300 would get to 1000 in a rifle with the right powder, and still stay kosher for pressure. That should be good for timber stalking. He also has an 1895 CB. These guns are a few of the reasons I am intrigued with what you did there. I am itching to try it out, kinda sorta how the old timers did it. And how some are apparently still doing it. Without all the smoke, or round-nosed bullets, though.

If you can confidently place a bullet or arrow in the vitals the shot is ethical. Depending on conditions with a rifle my maximum would be around 600 yards in less than a 5-10 mile wind. Practicing in field conditions prone or off sticks I'm good to a little past that range. I've never taken a shot past 350 at an elk because the longer shots presented were not conducive to killing them cleanly and or a successful recovery.

For elk in my rifle choices start at 30-06 with 165 grain, 7mm Rem Mag with 150 and 300 Weatherby with 180 grain all Barnes TTSX bullets. I'd rather not explore the limits of how small i can go to kill an elk.

That's what she said!

That cuts to the heart of it IMO.

To each his own. Some have zero interest in "playing Indian" with bows and arrows. So what.

I thought they were playing Robin Hood? He was a better shot than the Indians.

Yeah, but most would rather wear loin cloths than leotards.

Good point.

My yardstick is complicated and simple at the same time. Simple because I only pull the trigger when I'm sure that I will hit what I'm aiming at. Complicated because there are a lot of variables that go into making that decision.

Bullet construction is only one item in the long list of things to consider. I use a bullet that I'm sure will kill the animal that I am hunting. I make that decision long before I go into the field so I never think about it when hunting. For elk I use a 180 grain Nosler Partition because I know that works.

I also use a rifle that I'm sure will do the job. That decision is also made long before I go into the field and it includes lots of practice. So that's another item that I don't have to think about when hunting. For elk I use a T/C Icon Weathershield 30-06.

Other things that I consider automatically include:
Range to the target,
Rifle Rest - is my rifle stable?
Wind - specially a cross wind,
My Breathing Rate,
Target Activity,
Visibility - can I see well enough to make clean kill,
Backstop - what's behind the target?

I shot one elk at a range so far that the range finder couldn't get a fix on a solid reflective target. I estimated it at about 500 yards because reflective targets near and in front of him were recording ranges around 450 yards. I shot twice and hit him twice after watching him graze for about 15 minutes. It took that long for me to dope it out.

BTW I know a young lady (20 something) that has killed 6 elk using 115 grain Nosler Partitions in a 25-06. She's not very big so bigger calibers present a recoil challenge to her. She just makes sure that she hits the animal in the right place. Like you said "shot placement is the most important aspect."

KC

Last year's deer was 7 minutes and only 276 yards. It also took that long to get shooting stable.

I see several guys have used the phrase "if I'm confident in the shot," or "confident in the bullet". Perhaps confidence is a better choose of words than ethical. But what gives you that confidence pre-hunt and during the hunt that the rifle/bullet combo you chose in the situation you are or will be hunting is a good match (clean kill) for the animal you are hunting? What info, or anecdotal stories do you use get that "confidence" in your set up?

My confidence with the 06 came from shooting a variety of loads at distance and trusting an elder with many years of experience hand loading. The load is Nosler ballistic tip 180's with accurate 3100 ( discontinued now ) moving 2900fps. This load got my first elk broadside at 407 yards straight through the boiler and my first deer at 466 yards.

From my understanding AA3100 is IMR4831.

I was looking at your sig, and I thought that this might sound better.

When it's time to bury your guns, it's time to use them.

There are a lot of factors that go into being confident of the shot’s results, although confidence provides no guarantee.

For me, confidence starts with a firearm and load I can consistently shoot well, whether at the range or in the field.

The range involved plays a big part – is it a known factor (e.g. lasered) or is it an estimate? Close range engenders higher confidence but as the range increases confidence drops accordingly. Inside 300 yards, confidence is very high. At 400 it starts to drop, with lack of a steady rest increasing he rate of drop. Beyond 500 yards everything needs to be perfect before I would attempt a shot. Past 600 yards, the limit of my practice, confidence drops to zero. My longest shot to date is 487 yards with passes on all longer opportunities.

Knowledge of the cartridge plays a part, too. Regardless of the bullet, I wouldn’t choose a .223 Rem for elk at 600 yards. A .300 WM, yes.

Then there is confidence in the bullet, the thing that does all the work. I have a strong preference for mono-metal and bonded bullets for my bolt guns as I trust them to hold together and penetrate better than cup-and-core bullets after high velocity (i.e. close range) impacts. For my lower velocity hand and lever guns, cup-and-core or hardcast are acceptable and sometimes all that is available.

Then there is the angle of the particular shot. Even a good bullet at the wrong angle gives me pause. For extreme angles I would want a bullet like a TTSX that has proven its worth in the penetration department. Not only have my hunting partners and I never recovered one on broadsides, I’ve taken facing shots and driven them lengthwise through mule deer with exits.