https://www.skyhinews.com/news/auth...s-in-last-weeks-fatal-shooting-incident/

This is a terrible story from where I live. Reportedly the hunters were in a parking area. One was loading his rifle. I'm told it was a bolt action .270 Winchester (brand unknown) with detachable magazine. The hunter reportedly inserted the magazine, then closed the bolt, and the rifle fired when the bolt closed. He said his finger was not inside the trigger guard. His friend was standing about 30 feet away, facing away, and was shot in the left back/chest. The rifle has been sent to be analyzed by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation to see if it will fire when the bolt is closed, without pressure on the trigger. We all know however that keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction would have prevented this death. We all know the rules...

Very sad.

And recently a man driving his vehicle was shot when his dog in the back seat discharged a loaded gun in the back seat.

Never point the weapon at something you don't want to destroy. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Treat every gun as if it is loaded.

Another reason to hunt with the weapon cold and the bolt closed on an empty chamber. I've typically always hunted with a hot chamber and safety on, but I am starting to rethink my position.

I never hunt with a hot chamber, why some insist on it is beyond me.

I never chamber a round while walking in or out of my hunting area. I insist anyone with me do the same. Walking around in the brush with a loaded chamber is also a recipe for disaster. Sadly the shot can’t be called back.😔

Didn't want to restart the hot vs. cold carry debate...but it seems clear that the same accident could have happened anytime this man chambered a round. Waiting until one sees game to chamber a round won't prevent an accident if one doesn't keep the rifle pointed in a safe direction and doesn't keep the finger off of the trigger until on target an ready to shoot. Hearing about this shooting led me to review and reflect on my own safety practices. Humans are fallible. I think that scrupulous adherence to the 4 Rules is without doubt the way to prevent accidents, whether we choose to carry with a round in the chamber or not. If the 4 Rules are followed it is impossible to accidentally shoot someone.

Quite a few 'accidental' shootings while hunting in MT this year - Hunting Accidents

So, he shot his buddy 30ft away in the back. Accident, no. Negligent, maybe. Maybe something else.

Agree, very sad, I cannot imagine the pain this will cause.

Check his and widows cell phone records....

Not good for anyone

Very sad, all way around. Thanks for heads up riverdog. Just down the road from the ranch.

Remington Model 700?

Terribly sad news. Prayers on the way

Pathetic.

This is a terrible thing, but for those who won't have a round chambered while hunting do you do the same thing with your shotguns while hunting?

Perhaps... Stranger things have happened. Guess I have been watching too many Law & Order reruns.

Yeah, the difference is, this is a person, a man with a family, and a friend who will have to live with this.

I talked to a long time officer who is involved in the investigation. Like most in his field he is naturally suspicious and assumes the worst. The Sheriff’s Office conducted a homicide investigation and they are still analyzing evidence but there is no indication that this was intentional.

Shot in back 30 feet away, angle of rifle, etc. leads me to believe the perp was the most reckless firearm handler around or worse. Negligent homicide immediately comes to mind. No such thing as an “accident “ like this. Unintentional yes, accidental no. I feel sorry for the families involved.

The finger was never on the trigger after an AD, it's universal.

Same question regarding those who carry a handgun while hunting, or hunt with a handgun.

Tough lesson.

^

Can't fix stupid.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ in spades

Very sad, no doubt. A possibly similar fatal accident occurred last Saturday morning on Missouri's opening day of firearms deer season. This happened near a small town in NE MO, about 3/4 mile down the road from my farm where I hunt. Guys were inside their hunting cabin and evidently just getting up at 4am and getting ready for opening morning and the landowner accidentally shot his friend in the chest and the victim died instantly. No details released yet on how it actually happened and you shouldn't have a loaded rifle in your cabin but again, with appropriate muzzle control this too, could have been prevented....

With a detachable mag? Could be the Walmart Special 780 or whatever it is.

4 rules notwithstanding, chambering a round in the parking lot is just plain stupid.

There are aftermarket kits for those that convert them to a detachable mag.

Broke one of the cardinal rules of safe firearms......Always point the muzzle in a safe direction. When a round is in the chamber has nothing to do with this or any other act of negligence.

Sure it does because people are human and people make mistakes. "The rules" are redundant and in a fatal incident almost always multiple rules are broken. Without even getting into the hot/cold chamber debate when hunting, one of the "rules" more people should pay attention to is, don't load your rifle when you're not hunting and there's no reason to have a round in the chamber. Like before legal shooting hours, in or around a vehicle, and so on.

Sure, you can say that if he'd kept the muzzle pointed in a safe direction nothing bad would've happened. But you can say the same about not loading the rifle until there's a reason to.

Remington had a problem with guns firing without touching/pulling the trigger. Google it.
One young kid went to prison for killing his brother. Later released when the
Problem was discovered.

My nephew rode around all hunting season Oct to Jan 1 with a loaded round in the chamber. End of hunting season, uncased his rifle in the house, shot a hole through the wall, killing a 72" big screen TV.

Person in the next town was practicing cycling loaded ammo through the rifle in preparation for deer season. Rifle went off shooting a 30 cal bullet though the length of her house.

One of these persons was a deputy, the second was a former combat marine.

We know better, then we don't.

I investigated hunting and boating accidents for 30 years. I always considered the "accident" may not have been accidental at all. Almost all accident investigations involved sorting out the lies that were told by the participants.

Well said, Smoke.

Remington has a problem with being the most popular rifle on the continent and originally having an imminently adjustable trigger........

Taking your firearms for a walk works just fine in some terrain and for some species and hunting styles, at other times, you need to have a firearm that is ready to shoot on an instant. Debating whether or not you should hunt hot or cold is too situational to be anything but foolishness. If you follow the cardinal rules of firearm safety, it doesn't matter if you hunt hot or cold. Negligent discharges that result it deaths along with any number of other fatal hunting accidents are 100% the result of breaking one or more of the cardinal rules.

I hope it was not intentional.

I'm sorry but my mind generally assumes the worse in these situations. Especially two friends, and the dead one has a wife.

I just cannot fathom how anyone can be so stupid, so sloppy, so distracted, to not have awareness of where the muzzle of his rifle is pointing, while loading.

If I'm hunting with someone else, I insist we both carry cold chamber, or I'm not hunting with them.

I guess if I can’t trust someone to carry a loaded weapon while hunting or load before going hunting, how can I trust them to load and chamber a round when we make contact with game or get to the place where we decide it is safe to load? Is it too much to expect someone to be able to load and carry a firearm without accidental discharge?

It's a good question. We all decide for ourselves.




In the case of the OP, the shooter was either incredibly stupid, derelict, and inept.....or he did it on purpose. There's really no other way to that result.

We hunt cold most of the time when carrying rifles.
Rarely so with shotguns.

But the circumstances are also very different.

I have the 2nd young Hunter in the House. I go over in some detail the process of loading and unloading a gun when in and out of the truck. Yes, all it takes is once, SO TOTALLY AVOIDABLE.


Basically, I’ll go on my side, point down and away, you go on your side, point down and away while loading. The same applies to unloading.

There been 4 deaths here in Michigan in the last week during firearm deer season! one case a 13 year old, shot a 16 year old while loading his gun!

You should be able to trust your hunting partners to load their rifles safely, and to keep them unloaded until there's a reason to have a round in the chamber.

It even bothers me when folks unload, case their guns and put them in the vehicle w muzzle at the other guy.
Triple check, case it, then put it in w muzzle at you.
Or wait until the other guy is done and out of the way.
Yeah, muzzle at you is bad, but if you totally screw up only you gets killed.

BTW, I have seen firearm failures where they went boom with finger off the trigger.
But will agree, most folks have the booger hook on the bang switch and either lie about it, or flat out THOUGHT they didn't.
People have different motor skills and sensations of touch.
Some think off the trigger is also out of the trigger guard.
And some can lay a finger they thought was out of trigger guard, on side of trigger and work the bolt and "click".
Dude of some experience tripped my 600's trigger doing that.
Screamed I set it dangerous.
I was watching and told him his %$#@ finger was on the damn trigger.

Gun was unloaded, triple checked and he was testing trigger, pointed safe direction.
He had never shot a light trigger evidently (under 2#).

Who knows how many times he did that crap w a loaded gun and by sheer luck didn't have a boom.
Obviously of poor habit.

That was a real learning experience for him,

Yes, he bought the rifle.

Maybe where you live they are. Ever try flushing and shooting blacktail bucks in tight cover? Jackrabbits? Elk hunt the Cascades in the hemlocks? No damn way I'm carrying cold. Ever.

this is a very sad story, that rifle should have been pointed down and away from everyone that was poor learning skills and very sad. my brother`s rifle went off once ,by me ,rifle was a 30-30 lever when brother was unloading rifle carelessly and not paying attention,brother thought he was rifleman "Chuck Oconnors ", our DAD slapped him in the back of the head and scolded hard,we never had any safety issues again DAD was a youth gun safety instructor and when that happened he was pissed. maybe this dud had no gun safety training or a father that cared about safety or came from another broken family ? bad sad death that should not have happen the rifle never caused this death poor gun safety caused it !

If a guy can't figure out how to remove ALL the ammo from his gun, that guy should likely get another hobby. If a guy can't figure out how to make his gun impossible to fire w/o human intervention, that guy should likely get another hobby.

Which way do you point your hammer in the toolbox? Toward you, or toward your buddy? Which way to you point the scissors in the drawer? Toward your wife, or your kids?

Detachable mag, so likely not.

Re-read his last sentence.

Ever???? You carry rour rifle in the car with a hot chamber, or in the gun safe? Walking from parking lot to trail head?This is all about WHEN one goes hot chamber.

I don't trust my safety, I should trust yours? Plus your hand position, your muzzle control, your balance on slippery rocks, log, etc WHEN A HOT CHAMBER IS NOT NECESSARY??? Behind my back?

I don't think so.

i've got an old 700 that will do this if the trigger is set too low.

Yes! also, why do you have to load in the parking lot anyway?
muzzle down, not pointing at anything but ground.

sorry to hear this story.

In what way?

One of the downfalls of the Walker trigger is that it is immanently adjustable. I've bought a few M700's--including here on the 'fire--where the sear engagement was dangerously small...

A couple more older M700's probably never had their stocks removed and the underside of the rifle cleaned. The trigger housings were filthy, and PACKED with crud.

Those two situations probably account for 99% of the alleged "accidental discharges".

But few want to hear that.........

I talked with one of the investigators today. The rifle was a Browning. Function testing hasn’t been competed yet.

Quite possibly the dumbest post I've seen on the fire in 15 years.

When I leave my truck...I'm hunting...w/ a round in the chamber. powdr

Bad deal. Should remind us all of rule # 4. NEVER let your muzzle cover anything your not willing to shoot.

That being said, I never carry a rifle with a round in the chamber. If it costs me a missed shot, so be it. Just not worth the risk to me.

I have two husqavarna actions.

When on safe you can open the chamber.

If you open the chamber and close the chamber

It is no longer on safe.

You never leave the truck before legal shooting hours?

How about public roads, ever park your truck on the side of a road where (in most states) it's illegal to hunt within a certain distance of the road?

Rifles can discharge after cycling a round without touching the trigger.My model 70 did it when I was cycling it getting ready to shoot an elk. After the elk left, without me getting a shot, I repeated and it fired again.Lucky I had a 2nd rifle along and the Model 70 went to the gunsmith

RE this case, I've heard through the grapevine that there is some disagreemen about whether the shooter will be charged...if it turns out there is a malfunction in the rifle perhaps like saddlesore described, then some feel that there wouldn't be charges. Others reportedly believe that whether the rifle malfunctioned or not is irrelevant, because the shooter was negligent.

You do not have to depend upon a safety that may fail. Anything can fail. Close the bolt so that the lugs are not locked into the lug recesses. You can feel this spot if you close the bolt slowly. The bolt will remain in this position. The gun will not fire when you pull the trigger when the bolt is in this position. When you get ready to fire, simply close the bolt. It is easy and quiet. It is also very easy to tell when the bolt is in firing position by the position of the bolt handle. Much easier than trying to look and see if a safety is on or off. I picked this up from another forum. I have been trying that method this hunting season. It appears to be a safe way to hunt. The only issue I have is that I am afraid I will accidentally close the bolt an not realize it, so I am careful to keep an eye on it. The jury is still out as to whether or not this is the best way to go. Try it and see if you want something different. I do not trust a mechanical safety.

Also, I hunt alone. Not that I do not have friends and family that hunt. I simply prefer to hunt alone and be with friends and family around the fire afterwards.

I have several rifles with detachable mags. It seems to me his mistake was having the bolt open when he inserted the mag. Closing the bolt chambers a round just like an internal mag rifle. I typically put the mag in but leave the bolt closed and don't chamber a round until I'm down the trail a ways or entering the woods to start hunting.

I had a Browning A-bolt that fired when the bolt was closed with nothing anywhere near the trigger. Was hunting cold, deer came in, chambered a round and it fired as soon as the bolt closed. Sent the gun into Browning and they found the defect and repaired it. So, I know personally that it can happen with a Browning. Don't know if his was same model. Scared the [bleep] out of me when it went off.

He still violated rule #1.

I had a Remington 700 that fired upon closing the bolt and it happened twice, and once when taking it off safety. I installed a Timney trigger/safety.

Quite often, yes, I carry a shotgun with an empty chamber. Mine is an 870 pump and I've used it for doubles at the range. (Not very successfully, I might add, but the occasional success is addicting.) Picking up the second clay is actually more difficult for me than starting with an empty chamber an picking up the first.

There are lots of times when an empty chamber makes sense for a shotgun. Engaging doves might not be one of them. Laying in a ditch waiting for geese might be (and often has been).

Although we hunt empty chamber most of the time with our rifles, the key word is "most". There are times when having a loaded chamber makes more sense and we choose according to our judgement.

And, although I get no end of grief for it, I do the same with my carry weapon. Most of the time (probably 99.9%) it is unloaded in the chamber. If I lived in a different area my carry habits would adapt accordingly - ther are areas where a loaded chamber would be de rigor.

That's a little different answer than you gave the first time you answered this question a few pages back. Have you changed your thinking?

First, when we are near the vehicles and have a distance to go to where we will be hunting, both rifles and shotguns are unloaded. But that isn't so much hunting as travel by a different means.

When big game hunting we will often spend the day and return to the vehicle without ever loading the chamber. There have been things like skylined game and game bounding away and offering only a 'Texas heart shot' that have cost me game but I can't think of a single instance where an empty chamber has done so. On the contrary, I can think of many instances where we loaded the chamber in anticipation of a shot opportunity, but even those were mostly dry holes.

Walking the CRP land, harvested crop fields, grasslands or sage for small game is a different story - we load the shotgun chambers before we start. Laying in a ditch waiting for geese, an unloaded chamber works fine. Hunting doves, loaded chamber - I need all the shots the gun will hold.

Years ago I hunted elk with a dude form LA. Last day of the hunt he informed us his safety was broken. We asked if he hunted empty chamber. His response was no, but he kept his finger off the trigger. We never let him hunt with us again.

Much of my career has been spent fixing things that are broken - and there has been no shortage of such work. Mechanical safeties and humans are both prone to failure. An empty chamber is not.

Neat trick if you dont sit in a stand to hunt.

Half the season, hunting means walking around in the bush, not sitting in a stand.

Muzzle control is of utmost importance.

Any gun that is ever pointed at you should be followed by a beating.

I have zero tolerance for poo muzzle control. Loaded, unloaded, I dont GAF. PIOnt it in a safe direction. Every time always.

The rest becomes moot.

Not at all.

What I said above was I rarely "hunt cold" with a shotgun. I differentiate between "hunting" and "travelling by foot", whether carrying a rifle or shotgun. The two may overlap or I may be doing one or the other, depending on the situation. I don't see any need to have a loaded chamber while laying in a ditch or blind waiting for ducks or geese to come in anymore than when hiking to or from the hunting spots. I'm also hesitant to call waiting time "hunting" time except in the broadest terms. Hunting mode kicks in for me when the ducks or geese are in sight, not when the skies are clear, and there is plenty of time to load the chamber then if conditions warrant.

In any case, I haven't hunted ducks or geese in many (15?) years. Doves are a different story - one in the chamber and safety on.

]https://clockworkconservative.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/gun-safety-training.jpg[/img]

So, when you sit in a duck blind and you can't see birds flying, you don't consider yourself to be hunting, that's an interesting take on it.

To me its kind of like when I find a spot while elk hunting and decide to wait until late afternoon when I expect the elk to show up. You might fine me eating, sleeping, reading a book, trying to stay warm or just enjoying the view - but there isn't much 'hunting' going on.

You wouldn't catch me loafing at the edge of a meadow, stationary, without a round in the chamber during shooting hours. No need for an empty chamber when muzzle control is not an issue and an animal can show up unexpectedly.

Since I started elk hunting in '82 I've spent many hours overlooking a meadow or other area with an empty chamber. Can't think of a single time it has cost me an animal. For that matter, I've watched elk for hours on end with an empty chamber when they were a bit outside my comfort range. In one case from about 11AM to dusk, another from about 9AM to dusk, both resulting in a down elk. Another case we set up on a hillside, listening to the elk in a wooded draw below us. I hiked a mile back to the truck, drove an hour to town, had lunch, and returned to the site where I found Daughter #2 and her hubby sleeping. I joined them in a snooze for a couple hours and he bagged his elk just before dusk. Other cases not so long, some successful, some not, some alone, others with company. In every case, plenty of time to chamber a round and no missed shot opportunities. In yet another case, we were hunting with loaded chambers, as the elk were coming towards us through the trees. My hunting buddy had two misfires (cold/weak firing pin spring) before he bagged his elk. I didn't shoot mine until he was done, and even then I took my time, setting up on sticks and waiting for a full broadside opportunity. No rush at all. You do it your way, we'll do it ours, everyone wins.

Yep, I've also spent many hours watcging animals that were out of range and napping. But those are apples and oranges with respect to setting up in a spot where animals can pass through at any time.

I'd say that depends on the situation - including size of the area, type of vegetation, etc. We've sat where you could see elk coming from over a mile away and didnt chamber untill they were under the horizon of the knoll we were sitting on. Ended up passing on a 25 foot shot and taking one at at around 35 yards.

I know 2 out of the last 3 model 700 and model 7s that I have looked at on used gun racks had obviously had the triggers messed with. The pink fingernail polish on one of them was a dead giveaway. People just can't resist. I have an older buddy I hunt with and he'll tell you everyone was messing with the overtravel screw as soon as they bought a 700 back in the day.

I wonder if it was someone who wanted a bench rest trigger on a hunting rifle. I have one rifle like that, with a 9oz Jard trigger. That is only used on the bench or for woodchucks. When I'm hunting with it never is it loaded until it's on the bipod or bags. Then I put a round in the chamber and push the bolt closed, but I will not cam it closed until I have a shot.

But with woodchucks there is no time factor, I can take all the time I need. Not so with big game, especially at the shorter ranges I hunt at. Then I want a five pound trigger. And I never use gloves, clam shell mittens so I can put a bare finger on the trigger. I want to clearly feel that thing.

My hunting buddy missed a large bull elk this fall, when he chambered a round and the elk heard it and bolted instantly. If he had a round in the chamber he would be eating elk steaks instead of walmart hamburger. LOL

Remember what my grand father always said. I rifle without a round it is just another piece of pipe. Treat every firearm as loaded until you prove it is not. Basic rule for all morons. we teach our kids this yet you have some idiot acting in this manner.

It's not really that far out there, considering this humdinger of a headline: "Widow Charged With Murder Of Missing Seminole Duck Hunter UPDATE: Denise Williams guilty." (The details of the murder are creepy.)

"UPDATE: Dec. 16, 2018: Denise Williams was found guilty Friday, Dec. 15 in a Tallahassee courtroom of three counts, including first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Her husband, Mike Williams, was killed by Brian Winchester, who had been Mike Williams’ best friend. Denise Williams and Winchester were having an affair and planned the murder. Denise Williams later received $1.75 million in life insurance payments, including a $1 million policy that Winchester sold to his best friend, Mike Williams."

Winchester and Denise Williams were later married, but their contentious split in 2016 led to resolution in the case of Mike Williams, who went missing reportedly during a duck hunting trip on Lake Seminole.

Winchester testified in the case against Denise Williams, and the details of Mike Williams’ murder are bone-chilling. Winchester said he planned to make it look like Williams had drowned by pushing him out of Williams’ duck hunting boat, but Williams did not get dragged underwater by his duck-hunting equipment, as Winchester planned. Winchester said he then shot Williams in the face with a 12-gauge shotgun and dragged his body to shore, put him in the back of his truck and drove back to Tallahassee. He later buried him next to Carr Lake, a small lake also known as Mallard Pond north of Tallahassee."

Link: https://www.gon.com/news/widow-charged-murder-missing-seminole-duck-hunter

The old Walker triggers are easy to adjust properly. Problem is, not everyone is qualified to comb their own hair, let alone take on a task of a technical nature.

Basically:
1. Back out the screws a couple turns.
2. Adjust the sear.
3. Adjust the overtravel.
4. Adjust the pull weight.
5. Check for FOR (Fire On Release) issues, readjust if necessary.

Did Daughter's new-to-her 1975 M700 yesterday. (Basically wanted to inspect the trigger for cleanliness and make sure it wasn't susceptible to FOR safety issues and seal the barrel channel.) It had been previously adjusted is my guess, since there was nothing locking the screws in place. (There is now.)

The Remington trigger, the older one's anyway, can be responsibly adjusted to a very nice trigger. But we have to be reasonable. I always considered one major flaw in the Remington 700 design is that the safety is inside the trigger housing. I much prefer the Winchester system where the striker itself is locked. In either case you can't set the sear engagement so fine that it's sitting on a hair. Better to have more engagement and the surfaces glass smooth than little engagement.

Makes sense to me.

It would if you had been there.

I'm sure it would have. I'd have been on the same wavelength within the space/time continuum.

My son lost a friend when he was 10 years old because the father of another friend left a loaded rifle on the seat of his pickup. Tragedies like this can be easily avoided by following a few simple safety rules. I think about this every time I go hunting. As a result I always hunt with a cold chamber until I am ready to shoot. If I miss an opportunity, so be it. No animal if worth someone's life.

I quit hunting up by Crater Lake, due to the trigger happy clowns during Elk Season...

I quit after one guy was shot and killed by other hunters, during 3 out of 4 seasons...
( in campfire fashion, NO not one guy killed annually)..

each time It was someone bringing a kill back to his vehicle... and carrying the head and antlers
on a back pack...just walking down a trail...

The last straw for me was when I kicked up a large bull in a heavily wooded creek bed...

all of a sudden I felt as if I was in Vietnam and walked into a Viet Cong Ambush... bullets fly everywhere..
and shots going off up on the hill side where there was a road... 7 different guys blasting away at the Elk..

Road hunters.. one guy stopped and looked, saw the elk, jumped out and started shooting..
other guys come by and saw him shooting so they got out and started shooting...

They quit after I fired a couple of shots over their heads.. me yelling someone is down here didn't seem to phase them....when I got up on the road, they asked if I was down on the creek bed, and I answered yeah...

the tone must have been telling them I was pissed as they back away from me walking by... they had been standing in a circle BSing with 4 pickups parked there....

when I walked passed them, one wise ass asked WTF I was doing down in the creek bed....

"who in the hell do you think kicked that elk up from its bed??"

I elk hunt very little here in Oregon, too many trigger happy morons out there....

still seems like every other year, someone else is shot and killed by some other dipschitts..

not during deer season it seems, always during Elk Season...

Seafire,
Your post above re morons indiscriminately firing at game from the road and elsewhere perfectly describes the reason I seldom if ever hunt popular public lands anymore.
Happy Trails

I hunt wilderness areas in Oregon. Kilt a 4x4 bull just a bit SW of Crater Lake, not far from where Seafire references.

If you hunt near roads, expect to get what you get.





P