Maybe this isn't quite the correct forum for the question, but it ought to do...

I was trained to keep my right elbow up, more or less horizontal, in the offhand. But I don't recall a reason, besides to form a nice little pocket for the butt. Anyone know a good one?

Doesn't have to be that way. The rifle has to be a comfortable to hold when in a relaxed state. One of the most important things when shooting offhand (deliberately) is the positioning of the feet and hence the torso.

If your feet were perpendicular to the target your torso would have to twist to the left. When a shot is let off your muscles relax and the shot will wander to the right and usually high as well.

Position your feet, close your eyes, relax, then open them looking through the scope. You'll find you'll we way off windage wise. Adjust your feet accordingly.

Use a sling as well. Hasty does just fine and 10x better than nothing.

Some guns work best with a high elbow, others not so at all.

There are too many fixed "rules" in shooting positions. I was using a modified sitting position that was the only way I could make it work for me many years ago. Then in the mid 90s it came out to be used by David Tubb also, and called the Tubb sitting position in circles....

You have to make it work for you. Its just about like the BS of pulling the trigger with ONLY the tip of the index finger...

The "pocket" helps to keep the butt from sliding around and riding on the shoulder bone. Both are important when firing a rifle with noticeable recoil. I learned to shoot with a Model 1903 Springfield, and if that steel butt plate wasn't in the "pocket" properly it made me painfully aware of it. Ultimately, whatever works for you is best. Don't be afraid to experiment.

Oh wait, that wouldn't work for me.....I shoot left handed....

Thanks, all. Up to a point.
It's not that I don't do it or like it; I was trained in it, it's comfortable for me, I do well with it.
I just want to know the rationale for it.

rationale was that I shot much better with the M14 with high elbow and it helped apply stock pressure to the cheek for me with the high arm.

When transitiioning to the better AR15, I can't use a high elbow, it just doesn't feel right or work well at all with that weapon platform so I roll the gun to my face to make sure it stays there and keep the arm low

What rifle you shooting?

An AR-15 doesn't need to be in the pocket.

You want to establish the most upright head position that you can and still control the rifle. If it has heavy recoil you are going to have to put it in the pocket.

Let me rephrase it: What was the accumulated historical reason for it that has made the 'elbow up' conventional wisdom?

Again- this isn't about me and isn't a search for change. I want to know why the old-timers passed it along down the line as simply 'the thing to do'.

I believe Jeff has stated the reason you're looking for. Take a look at the grip configuration over time. The Trapdoor Springfield, Krag and Springfield 03 all had straight grips which necessitated a high elbow to help wrap your thumb around the far side of the grip.

The C stocked Springfield with a pistol grip and subsequently the Garand and M14 allowed for a bit more relaxed elbow...and the M16's full pistol grip almost requires a low elbow position.

That sounds good, but I don't quite see it. I just tested with my Monte Carlo and with a mil Springfield. Mounting either with a high elbow certainly guarantees a good 'wrap', but going in low doesn't at all prevent it. (Though I can see how trainers would go for a 'guaranteed' way rather than have to continue correcting those who failed to grasp enough around.)

Citations would help keep the answer out of conjecture and in history.

The reason for the high elbow was because you were supposed to do most of the "lifting" with your right arm. The left arm only provided minor guidance. In fact, people used to dry fire holding the rifle in the right hand and shoulder only (everything here assumes right handed shooters). At the time, the left hand was not so good for support anyway, because NRA High power rules did not allow the left arm to touch or be supported by the chest.

What changed?

1. This position is not good with rifles having pistol grips, like the AR15.

2. NRA rules allow the left arm to contact the chest.

This is why the high elbow is not used so much today.

when I still at times shoot our M14s offhand... I still go high, it just fits better for me.

Say what?!
My left is providing 99% of the support against gravity. My right is pulling slightly into my shoulder but otherwise is dedicated to a clean pull of the trigger.

There were those that would advocate what IndyCA describes, but my sense was it was more individuals or pockets than doctrine. Jim Owens (USMC ret.) describes a stunt that one team shooter would perform for training classes, where he would walk in holding the rifle in the firing position with just his right arm. He acknowledges it had no bearing on a good scoring position.
You're looking for documentation when there might be none available. Time to dig out the old military training manuals, and marksmanship texts.

Why may I ask does it matter on the why?

High elbow gives you a better trigger pull on rifles like the M14 too. You may not notice the difference until you have dry fired 10,000 times, but it could be the difference between shooting in the 170s and breaking into the 180s.

Honestly I think its more like the difference between 185ish and 195ish offhand.

170s have a lot of work to do. But admittedly, its all small things combined in the end that keep you moving up the ladder.

I found the opposite. Dropping the elbow a bit allowed for a better trigger position on the '14 for me. ...one of the differences for breaking into the 190's for me before moving over the the '16. After that it was all mental...like how the hell do you shoot a 190 with a 99 and a 91?

I crawled into the attic, grabbed four books on shooting; no mil manuals, though I'm sure they're here somewhere.
All four prescribed 'elbow up', with only a little more-

Captain Paul Curtis, in Guns and Gunning, noted:
"The right elbow is held a little higher than the horizontal position. When this is permitted to sag, it tends to drag the rifle over or cant it to the right."

And Jack O'Connor, in Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns, wrote:
"...your right elbow should be about level with your shoulder and the butt of your rifle against the pad of muscles formed at the shoulder joint. If the steel buttplate is farther inside against your collar bone, the recoil is apt to hurt, and if your right elbow is down toward the waist it is difficult to get your right eye in line with the sights with modern stocks."

Again, I tested. If I mount elbow up and then flap my wing, the gun very obviously rotates. And if I mount it elbow down, the pocket is not comfortably vertical and the rifle wants to sit at a right cant.
I didn't notice any difference in cheek placement or sight line, mounted down. (Sorry, Jack.)


Why on the why- A friend has demonstrated the need for some instruction, some thirty-five years into his shooting career, so I'll soon be out in the hills with him. Although I can give orders without comprehending their reasoning (I spent enough years in middle management!), I'd much rather be able to explain and justify what I say. I learned the position while too young to care, but anymore I want to understand what I'm doing and why; and I like to offer same to those under my tutelage. Plus, the reason will dictate how strongly I insist on performance.
So, this is classroom prep.

Easy. You shot a 99 and a 91. Just like I've done more than once....some days its LACK of mental IMHO... or the real case, if you had less mental your score would be much better....

Depends on the rifle as well.

I shoot a lever gun with the elbow down as this reduces gun movement when levering for quick follow ups.

A run a bolt gun with elbow higher, but not straight out like many do.

I've had some time to grab some books and mull this over a bit. Ya know I feel like we're giving answers to the wrong question. If your friend has marksmanship issues in the field, should you be teaching him to shoot a good standing, or would he better be served by teaching him to seek the first rock or tree to rest off of to make a better shot?

I shoot a fair offhand in Highpower competition, but what it has taught me is not the mechanics of shooting offhand in the field. My learning has been more cognitive. In spite of my match scores, I know that I will take a carefully aimed deliberate offhand shot in only very narrow circumstances (without better options, no wind, good footing etc.) Offhand has also taught me about trigger control and discipline that is applicable in all field positions.

I could share with you what the highpower champions have said relative to your initial question, but again I think you're focusing on the wrong question for your friend.

I'm probably faster than a lot of folks at a quick movement into some kind of supported position or grabbing grass or brush etc... I have not taken many offhand shots by choice...

The one I did I was glad for the Highpower background... 150 plus yards and center punched a moose...yeah I know, gravy target.... but still..

Thanks for the deeper look, ChrisF. In other circumstances, perhaps, your thought might be key to correcting the conversation.

The recognition of need in my buddy began with a deer-losing 'rest' problem (he fiddled too long, lost the chance for a shot). We explored, and he doesn't have the mind-set of quickly determining the right position for the circumstance, doesn't know and isn't comfortable in standard positions, isn't aware of the multitude of things that constitute a rest, needs a refresher on shooting fundamentals, and simply needs trigger time.

Offhand instruction and practice will be a small part of our time. This thread was begun because I'm missing that particular rationale and I like to be thorough- even in the small stuff.

I've shot a goodly number of animals (not nearly as many as some folks have (!), but quite a few), only a handful, of big game, from offhand (with a rifle). By far, most have been from prone; though partly because of my preferred hunting style. I almost always hunt under a daypack, and it's my primary rest. I'm a firm believer in assisted shooting. I'm confident that I'll do well by my friend re his deficiencies noted above, (and more; my thoroughness sometimes knows no bounds ).

So I think we can return to the subject. I'd like to hear what those champs have to say.

If you have someone that has problems figuring out quickly what one can grab, kneel, sit, lean, etc.... for a field rest, teaching him to shoot well enough offhand will be a MUCH harder thing. IE easier to teach the field positions as noted...

It'll be just a part of a full review. He's not inexperienced, just hasn't had the good, full training one would like. He's a smart cookie; the practice and 'making it his' will be his responsibility as more time goes by.
Don't worry-- I'll have him better, and with the tools to get even better.

Sounds good. Keyboards and typing don't give the whole story most of the time.

Good luck adn good on ya for helping.

Jeff

If you teach him to be a good offhand shot, every other position will be easy for him. Tell him to get ahold of an accurate .22 rimfire and about 20,000 rds. of ammunition to start. Precise trigger control/letoff is what anyone really needs to be great offhand and that takes lots of practice to master.

I more or less agree. But not practical in this case.


But, please-- the thread intent?


(I'm not green around the ears (my teeth are another matter). While I'm no certified marksmanship coach, I've been around the banana boat a few times. I'm confident, and not without cause, that I'll do well in ways that will be useful to my buddy. So, thanks for the suggestions about the teaching; but all I really want, or need, is the old-time rationale...)

I'm still going with the rationale that its what works best with each shooter and each weapon. High, low or in between.

I had a coach step on a junior shooters legs of mine once. Once. I told him to get off. He said she could not shoot well with the foot/leg in that position in prone. I explained to him we'd tried the "correct" way and so on and were not new at this game... She proceeded shortly there after to be 3rd in the nation in the Whistler Boy Match at Camp Perry...
He never said another word to me. Ever.

I still think mostly the elbow position is in an effort to keep the head up right on the stock. When your ears are not level the brain can think you are falling and start sending motor signals to correct when not needed. You are trying to be relaxed in the shot, and the movement won't help you any. Thats from the target side of it.

Hunting, IMHO, can be totally different. In that if you have time to set up the shot the correct way offhand, then you had MORE than enough time to find a field expedient BETTER rest. So the teaching there would be more the master of trigger control and lean into the rifle, use a sling, and get the shots off quickly IMHO.

And like Blackheart I'ds tart with a 22 for sure... 5000 rounds of ammo is a good start. Thats after I'd have him dry fire it till I was happy, then start mixing in live ammo, but go back to dry fire to make sure he isn't working up a flinch...

My days of competitive shooting are long gone. I lived through the Marine Corps transition to the mouse gun at Quantico. A good off hand position is established with a natural point of aim when you rely upon the geometry of your structure to provide a solid platform to recover from recoil without muscling the rifle. When mounting the rifle, you do not want your strong side arm wound up like Popeye when he's throwing a punch. You need a natural position. I shot the M14 with a spot weld with my forearm support straight under the stock directly ahead of the mag box. Having a high strong arm elbow gave me a natural pocket, allowed proper placement of my grip upon the stock wrist, allowed the stock to properly align with my face for a solid weld, and allowed a solid pull into my shoulder while maintining proper trigger control. If I attempted to raise my elbow, either too high or too low, from this natural position, I would bind and my solid platform would then break down.

Making the transition to the mouse gun required a change to to my natural shooting position due to the change in design and ergonomics of the M16. With the M16, my grip placement is changed and I shoot this rifle with a cheek weld vs a spot weld. As a result, my geometry requires that I adjust my position so that I do not bind/wind up like Poypeye.

Same thing can be said for different designs in hunting rifles and shotguns. I spend a ton of time hunting game birds with shotguns. The techniques used to swing and mount a shotgun to hit fast moving birds is critical to success and is much different than shooting either a M14 or a M16 off hand. There is very little in common in the mechanics to execute a well aimed shot. If you mounted an M14 like a shotgun, you'd never score very high, and if you mounted a shotgun like an M14, you'd hit few pheasants. One could say the same thing when looking at a heavy recoiling big bore designed for hunting dangerous game. The ergonomics of the rifle or shotgun plays a big part in how you apply your natural shooting position. It is not a one size fits all between all marksmen, and it's not a one size fits all between different disciplines of weaponry and shooting styles.

edit to add :

One could even say that how you would properly mount an M16 for CQB so that you could be most effective at hitting targets on the move, would be a completely different technique in how you would mount the same rifle to shoot off hand in service rifle competition to clean the target with max X hits. Both would look different, and neither would work well if the techniques were flip flopped.

Best

Gary M, is that you?

Read David Tubb's book...if you want to learn how to shoot standing and apply what he advises!! It ain't learned overnite!!

Davids is not the only method though, as in the approach method he uses. More than a few 200s are shot all year long using other methods. FWIW.

When I shot enough to be able to grab the shot like David does, it works really well though.

Problem is with any of them, you have to adapt them to you.

When TUBB wrote about his method he created quite a stir because it ran counter to the convention at the time (shoot within your hold, and work to minimize your hold). At that time, he was shooting an Anschutz trigger on his Model 70 match rifle. Today it's an Anschutz trigger on his TUBB2K. Many folks gave his method an honest to goodness try, but not many came away with much success. I think that part of the problem was that his method required exquisite trigger control which was more doable with the Anschutz trigger. The vast majority of highpower is done with a Service Rifle, who's trigger runs a minimum of 4.5 lbs.

At the time his book came out, I was coaching with a High School Small Bore and Air Rifle program. We taught the conventional method, which continues to be valid today. One of our kids went on to win the NCAA Air Rifle Championship (which is all standing) in his freshman year, and won the World Cup in Munich for Air Rifle using the conventional technique.

Back in the world of High Power (with wind at the range), Carl Bernosky recently tied Gary Anderson's record for Standing Slow Fire of 200-15X. I haven't asked him recently if how he holds on the target, but at recently as a few years back, he was a "hold 'em and squeeze 'em" kind of guy.

GDT's an innovator and he found something that worked for him. He even shared his secrets via his book. Unfortunately, it wasn't replicable for many.

p.s. Mr. Mulhern, I used to enjoy your articles in PS magazine. Had you heard that they're closing their doors?

What is the conventional technique??

Shoot your hold.

which is greek ..... what does shoot your hold imply??

Shoot your rifle as steady as possible using good fundamentals (the "hold") and get your shot off within that "hold". This is in contrast to Tubb recommending guiding the sights across the target and getting the shot off when the sights are aligned. This is also in contrast to where you try to time your wobble so that you can break the trigger when it wobbles into the right spot. More often than not that results in a "grab" at the trigger which disturbs the alignment of the sights on the target.

trigger control must be almost perfect and timing must be, to use Tubb/s method. Its given me the highest scores and x counts when I"m on with it. But when not.... it kinda sucks....

IMHO if using Tubb method you should cross train with bullseye rapid fire pistol strings a lot.

HP offhand AR15

Good photo.

Some folks run the butt of the gun even a hair higher to keep the head forward/backward tilt level or more so level. And some cant the gun more into their face to keep the head and sights level.

Also depending on the build the support hand can go in a number of different places.

But its all in what you get used to and a lot is dictated by your body.

For me, even shooting the M14, the hand on the bottom of the mag did nothing at all to help stabilize the rifle, and actually hurt it a hair because it was a small wobble point. Fingers to the side of the mag/mag well help kill that wobble though.

IE no flames, thats a great starting picture, and if it works for you just as it is, great, but don't hesitate to try variations if need be.

Turns out I've used the "Tubb method" since before anybody ever heard of it. Always did right well with it too, placing in the top 3 at the state smallbore championship 3 years running and taking high individual the third year. I had the highest offhand average in my league.

Yep. For my own shooting, I carry my support hand with the palm turned in toward the mag well and more forward so that my fingers rest on or under the barrel nut.

You must be a heck of an offhand shooter. Shooting the highpower offhand target at 200 yards with a moving gun is workable.

Smallbore targets are HARD. Way harder to me than highpower ever will be.

Congrats on your successes. My offhand is the only thing that ever kept me from being a national champion in highpower service rifle IMHO.

Jeff

try silhoutte shooting for off hand work with all the rules that apply. have seen over the years lots of shooter from other shooting games come and look at the targets and talk about how easy this was going to be than to get their ass handed to them and never seen at a silhoutte match again. on shooing position one must expeiment and do what work for them it will vary depening on body build and many other things.

Sihouette is good cross training. And smallbore matches are fairly common. (vs highpower finding 500 yards)

The targets are somewhat different in sizes etc.. shape too. Turkey is the least forgiving to me and most like a highpower target.

BUT remember David Tubb, was also a Silhouette king too... El Rey was the name....so it must work.

OT here, but pistol matches bullseye rapid fire strings were REALLY great cross training for highpower rapid fire trigger control....

i do agree with all you say but one must remember too that when tubbs was silhoutte king he was shootin a chin gun(not trying to take from his abilatiy) which is now illeagle for the game so a different stance was used as compared to a "hunter" style gun

Yes on the chin gun, but IMHO he could have won under whatever rules where given him. But I"m like him, if it helps and is not illegal I"d be a fool not to use/try it....

If I"m not mistaken he also took a hunter title or two where I think the chin thing was not allowed either. This plus was using a 243 often that hit some animals but did not take them over.

yes you got it right it seems to me on off hand shooting one either has the nack or they dont. I do attened a few silhoutte matches even have a very nice smallbore range off the south side of my yard cathy (winsted) & james servin even come see me from time to time

Stance doesn't affect shot approach.

Tubb won the open title with what was supposedly an off the rack M700 in .243.

my take is stance has EVERYTHING to do with shot approach. If you don't set it up right so that your approach is slowing to stopping at NPA being center, then you wont' shoot as well as you can.

If stance didn't matter then about anyone could shoot out of any position standing and win.

I didn't say that stance doesn't matter.

I said position doesn't affect whether you approach from the side, bottom, top, or try to hold steady. You can use the same position with any of those methods. Whether you use an approach or a steady hold, the X-ring is where your position should place your NPA.

We are only talking about moving the muzzle of the rifle about .030" (5 moa) from "out" to "in".

True that. Missed that part.

This bears repeating. That's why Al-Queda killers and 3-gunners don't use Camp Perry shooting styles. On a KD range, you are concerned with THIS shot only. When someone is trying to kill you, you are concerned with the rest of your ammo loadout.