Going to purchase a .223 Rem. body die for reloading AR's.
What's the consensus on a regular body die vs the SB body die? I don't want to over work the brass but I don't want feeding issues either.
From those with experience which would you recommend I purchase?
rookie

At the risk of hijacking the thread I would like to add/ask if anyone us using the RCBS X die, says it helps prevent stretching and you only need to trim once....

I have never had an issue in the AR with handloaded ammo that was loaded with a regular FL die.

I’ve gotten by without SB dies for years, I don’t think they are needed unless most of your brass is previously fired from unknown sources.

Regular 223 Rem fl dies are fine correctly adjusted until they aren't. That is I've never owned an AR or bolt gun that the regular dies wouldn't work. If you pick up range brass that was shot in a gun with a max sized chamber it can happen that regular dies wouldn't resize it enough for trouble free use. That in my honest opinion is what a small base die is good for. Use the regular fl die follow it with gauging the brass with a Dillon or Lee case gauge. Once you have sized then gauged your brass ( setting aside any that do not gauge) take the brass that fail to gauge and run them thru the small base die the regauge for acceptance. Any that do not enter the shell holder easily are scrapped. Check length all should be under 1.76" if you are going to crimp all need to be trimmed to the same length. Chamfer inside and outside. Not necessary to have sparkling shiny brass every reload but certainly much to be said for it. Mb

Agree

This ^^^

I do have a body die that squeezes the brass tighter than my full length resizer. If you are having issues like with a Wylde chamber consider using a body die verses the small base. I believe my body die is a Redding. Also consider getting a Hornady Comparator so you can dial in your resizing. Buying one and then using it was a real eye opener for me. I have one .223 rifle that has a Wylde chamber that is much tighter than all of the others. When it warms up I am going to dial it in and then check the brass for dimensions and resize accordingly.

kwg

You need the mouth chamfer and it's good practice to chamfer at each loading. The X die mashes chamfers flat.

Get a drill-mounted Giraud trimmer & trim & chamfer every time you load. Takes less than 3 seconds per case.

Regular FL die works for 99.5% of reloaders. So unless you think you're special.....

Being the range brass scounging mutt I am, I always use a SB die just in case. No issues so far

That's where im at too, plus most of my ar's have tight chambers (CLE). I never have any issues and brass is free, so why not?

My outlook is probably different than most others on the subject, but I look at it that dies are one of the cheapest items you can purchase, vs how long it will serve you....

I shoot a lot of 223, and most of it is range pick up or once fired brass I purchase...

a die set costs as much as a box of premium ammo....which folks buy with no thought.... how long does that box of bullets last?
a box of Hornady ELD/ M bullets runs $40 for a hundred bullets...

I can buy a die set from RCBS, or Lee 4 die set for that amount or less...
a Redding body die, is that amount or less..around 30 bucks...
a RGB die set from Lee is like $20 now...

when I started reloading for the 223, the RCBS die set was $25.
The Lee 4 die set was 28.00 ...
the Redding Body die was like $25,00
the Lee RGB set was $10.00

That stuff has lasted me 20 years, and will out last me...
I picked up a used Small base sizer die from RCBS used for $5,00...

So any scenario, I have to deal with reloading 223 cases, I've pretty much got covered...

RCBS has a great warranty, replacing parts when I brake them... Lee is pretty cheap... there is nothing to break on a body die
The Lee RGB set was a cheap back up when something was broken and I'm waiting for a part to come in...

Nowadays, I primarily use the REdding body die, and the Lee Collet neck sizer, when I reload any cartridge... the other stuff being back up...
I've done well over 100,000 reloads in the last 20 years on 223s....I've got less than $100 out of pocket on dies for he 223...
If I sold them all today to make liberals happy, I'd recover 60% or better of my dollar investment on those dies..

most of the cartridges I load for, I have both a RCBS and a Lee 4 die set for....body dies I just make out of other cartridges by removing the spindle... like a 308 die makes a great body die for a 243, or 260 Rem or a 7/08....

dies are tools, and are the cheapest investment a reloader can make... they'll last forever.. and if you shoot a lot, your ROI is off the charts...
and sure saves a lot of frustration in the long run...

that is what I quickly learned, on how to look at the subject of dies and die sets....

buy em used, you get an even better ROI... and can sell em for what you invested in them...which makes em free in their service life for your needs...

I use small base dies as well & have loaded thousands of rounds for multiple guns with no issues whatsoever.

It just so happened that when I needed FL dies, that was all that was available so I've used them for years.

I have a body die & a neck sizer that I use for my bolt guns.

But the SB dies used for loading for an AR, while probably not necessary for most guns/brass, hurts nothing at all. The small amount of extra sizing near the base cause no real shortening of the case life.

One the other hand, it will ensure that your sized brass will chamber, assuming you also get the HS right as well & don't leave the case HS too long for a given gun.

MM

I’ve never used SB dies for my AR’s and never had any problems.

I've loaded and fired thousands of rounds of 5.56/.223, most of it with range pickup brass, and none of it required SB sizing.

Agree with Bob. You either need a SB die or you don't.

If you don't need it you will probably overwork your brass. I don't anneal or try to milk brass to 30 loadings, so overworking it is not a mortal sin, IMO.

If you have a relatively tight chamber and want to use scrounged or bulk brass a SB die may make sense. Of course, making overstretched pieces fit your chamber may be a false economy, think partial/complete separation.

As for the SB X die. I have one in .308. Sometimes I think it reduces need to trim, sometimes I think it's all between my ears.

Nor have I.

If ya need them, ya need them; most do not.

What do you base that on?

Frankly, that's an old wives tale that is pretty much pure BS............gonna shorten the life from 10 to 9 loadings? Maybe? Really?

MM

Good post mm. The funny thing about mine. I never even knew they were SB dies until a thread on this subject came up. I went out to the shop and looked at my die sets and it turns out I had 2 small base die sets. When I bought them, I just grabbed the RCBS dies that said .223 rem and didnt even notice it said "s.b" on it. Im not one for overworking brass, but I really havent noticed the die set doing that either. I do know that out of all the AR's I load for, all the ammo always chambers without any issues. I like 100% reliable ammo and it also still shoots accurately. Im not saying you need a small base die set, but from what ive experienced, they work just fine.

I did have an issue the first time I tried to fire reloads out of my first AR. I picked up the RCBS small base die set and never looked back. I use a lot of range pick up brass so the SB die gives me peace of mind. I am now loading for 2 ARs in 223/5.56 as well as two bolt actions, a single shot Ruger #3 and a TC Encore. I do have a regular die set on back order for the brass that I have previously fired, so the SB die will only get used for range pick up brass. I do have several firings on some of my brass and no signs of overworking yet.

I had an issue with 308 reloads between an older 308 and a newer one. I have a SB die for 308 and had to resize all my prepped brass with that die to get it back to specs so the newer 308 would chamber the rounds. I should not need that 308 SB die anymore, but it served a job and saved me a bunch of brass.

Like the other guy who picked up a small base die for $5 that's how I got mine and have never needed it. If my brass doesn't gauge it goes in the box for bolt guns then when I load it the case head gets black magic marker job and when it hits the ground it becomes someone else's problem.i do wonder about how much case capacity you lose with the small base die. Mb

None................so don't wonder anymore.

MM

Help me out here boys....if fired brass is supposed to come out of a regular, FL resizing die sized down far enough to chamber in a SAAMI chamber, how come some of it doesn't, necessitating a die that squeezes it down further than what's needed? I don't get it.

It’s simply because most advocating SB dies don’t know how to set up their regular dies to address headspace.

Speak fer yerself............there's no difference in setting up either standard dies or SB dies as far as HS goes................assuming you know how to do it in the 1st place & have a means of measuring HS.

Contrary to popular belief, SB dies are not tight enough to really squeeze the brass enough to make a huge difference on HS length vs standard dies.

MM

That’s right there is no difference but most don’t know how nor do they have the means to measure it. So the first time they get a case that won’t fit, they read on the net that “you have to use SB dies for an AR” and the myth lives on.

SB dies may not hurt a thing but they sure ain’t needed unless your smith used a file to cut your chamber.

More working shortens brass life. All else equal. Trying to argue otherwise is what's pure BS.

The old wive's tale is that the difference is significant for most shooters. Ease of chambering matters alot more. For at least several reasons.

My point was the same as yours, had you read all I wrote.

I guess what I’m curious about is the idea that using a SN die is predicated on the source or condition of brass. It would seem to me, that it would all depend on the chamber it’s intended for and, if the chamber is within SAAMI specs, there would be no need for a SB die, regardless of the source of the brass.

Some years ago, Browning was putting out BAR’s with tight chambers and RCBS offered small base dues that were categorized as “BAR dies” in the calibers BAR’s were offered in. I know at that time, I had to get some SB .308 dies because my brother’s and another Browning BLR I loaded for had tight chambers.

Again, I don’t understand using SB dies based on where the brass comes from.

You guys are always talking SHTF scenarios, yet you don't want to use dies that produce the most reliable ammo? For fuggs sake, make up your damn mind here. I don't have as many AR's as most of you here, but what I do feed mine will work in all of them and shoot very accuragtely to boot. If I can get 12-15 loadings from a piece of damn brass I picked up off the ground I'm pretty content... So what is it now TWR, you don't shoot for accuracy anymore and now you aren't going to make absolute reliable ammo either? But you still shoot custom barreled rifles though, don't you? What's your belief on 3 shot groups now? Hope you guys have a great new year...

Sam, how many loadings do you get from FC, R-P, PMC, or LC brass? Just curious.

Well you know at a minimum there are allways 2 sides to every story. On this thread we have those who swear by regular full length dies and those who feel that the small base die is the only one to be used. So what we are arguing about is sh*t . My RCBS regular fl die seated touching the top of the shell holder at the top of the ram stroke is a max case diameter ahead of the groove at .374". With my rcbs small base die set the same is .3735". We are arguing about .0005" difference in case diameter. You know as good as I am I just can't see that fine. Mb

Yeah, I just measured as well, RCBS small base vs Forster BR & I measured several different types of brass, some 223 & some 5.56, once fired brass I get from .001" difference on most of the cases, some only going .0005".

So as I've said, the SB dies are not overworking the brass by anyone imagination & surely not enough to significantly shorten brass life.

MM

Currently, .223 and .308 only go 5 loadings then toss. That is very conservative and understand why some might criticize. But have plenty of brass, no enthusiasm to anneal, and the approach has kept me out of trouble (see last paragraph). Am/was loading for MGs and semis. Not all the MGs were mine.

In .223/5.556 have used all those headstamps you mentioned and see no difference between them....again, over five firings. I used the SB sizers more in .223 b/c was told I'd "need" them loading for diverse MGs, not all of which were mine. Was kinda surprised to learn I did not need the SB to make ammo work in any of my uppers (about a dozen, all Colt except for the K2). So while I know there's extra brass working associated with the SB dies, it did not matter over 5 loadings.

In .308 get same 5 firings from Fed (nickel or not), LC, LC LR, RP, Hor, WCC, IVI, Win. Used to take .308 to 10 reloads or more and did see the difference between SB and regular FL dies: more frequent shoulder splits, even partial separations, in the SB group.

This is going off topic, but IME the best way to stay out of trouble loading for multiple chambers is to cull cases overstretched by generous chambers at first firing. Means running all pieces through the Wilson case gauge before case prep. More than 10 thou proud of the gauge's top shelf gets culled. Can be done while watching a movie, once you have the "feel" memorized. M240 or Minimi chambers are the usual source. No brass from any 16, AR15, or .308 chamber I've gauged has ever needed to be culled. This includes brass from HK91s. This will draw some argument, but I'd rather cull brass having incipient separations than use a SB die to make it chamber. I see that as a false economy. JM.02.

Pay attention BSA, you don’t need SB dies to have the most reliable ammo.

I have a headspace comparator kit and my dies are adjusted to the tightest headspace of all of my AR’s.

I have one sort of match type barrel left, it’s a LaRue PredatAR which is a pencil barrel I tried just to see. The rest ore chrome lined 5.56 NATO chambered pencil barrels from Colt and Sionics.

No I don’t shoot for the best accuracy anymore cause it’s boring. 3 shot groups don’t mean squat, 5 mean diddly squat and 10 give you an idea of how it’ll shoot. 20 gives you an idea of how you will shoot.

I had my hand worked on back in September and part of it has feeling in it again. Maybe when the rest of it wakes up I’ll get back to shooting groups but for now I’m content shooting matches and starting to hunt again. I did have a few light strikes in a gun last weekend. Shot an ICORE match with a 629 Mountain Gun and had a ball. Changed out the Wolf spring yesterday, back to the original cause I’m all about reliability.

Oh and SB dies aren’t needed to have great ammo. Happy New Year!

While I agree with everything you've said, except the part about long cases being run through a SB die, I have to say that I think the long cases potentially having incipient case head separations is more of a HS issue when pushed back than an issue that would be accentuated by a SB die as I just don't see the difference as being critical on a long case any more than a shorter case. If it's too long to chamber, that's HS or overall length, not necessarily a large diameter at the base area.

Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying.......................

MM

MM, We all know (or should know) when cases lengthen during firing in a generous chamber the "hit" is borne by the section just above the head. This is the area that thins. Zediker goes into this in great detail in his books, as do various loading manuals.

Sometimes you can feel it with a pick. May be more obvious after sizing to original/close to original dimension. Sometimes you can see the visual telltale ring after that first firing.

This is important: there is no way to rehabilitate a case so damaged. Nothing you can do. Each firing/sizing cycle only makes the probability of separation greater. Ergo, my policy is to identify such cases and cull. Pretty easy to do.

Do SB dies, by working brass more at body, aggravate the situation? When you displace metal in the body section it goes somewhere. Like a bead of silicone lengthens if you squeeze it. Result is more working of metal in the shoulder. You correctly note the resulting final HS-determining dimension will be no different, std vs SB sizer. But there was more metal working at the shoulder using the SB die. To repeat what I found, saw earlier attrition via cracks in the shoulder/neck junction in .308 when using SB dies. But only beyond 5-6 firings.

I'm not against the SB die on some principle, just arguing against the objective of trying to "fix" cases that cannot be repaired using a SB die. In other words, SB dies are not the problem, but folks sometimes use them for the wrong reason.

Am fully agreeing SB dies are sometimes needed to deal with a small chamber. Wish my .375R sizer was a SB sizer. Just never needed them for .223 or .308.

Well, all things being equal, resizing a case's HS dimension to significantly below the HS dimension of the gun(s) it will be fired in, & then repeating that sequence through multiple firing is far more likely to cause case head separations than a small base die.

The abnormally long HS dimension after the 1st firing can also result from factory brass that is shorter than minimum spec...........and that can be greatly accentuated by initial firing in a chamber that is on the long side of the HS spec.

I have exactly that situation with a batch of Win 280 brass a few years ago................Win actually replace the brass for me.

So, back to SB dies, IMO they have a very minimal effect on lengthening brass above the case head, compared to a standard die, given the really small amount of difference between them & standard dies, from typically .0005-.001". Neither a deal maker nor a deal breaker.

JMHO, YMMV

MM

Have you taken dies from several manufactures and measured to see how they resize brass? Not all dies are made the same and its not all about headspace. It is more about the base of the case, not the shoulder.

Agree. And doubt most even know lengthening happens using SB.

For .223 I get between 1-2 thou lengthening, Just 1 thou for .308. Not enough to matter. Dies vary too, even from same maker.

No, not really.

Regardless of whether you are using a SB die or a standard die, when FL sizing, you also need to adjust the (depth of the) die to yield the correct / desired HS.

As far as the base of the brass goes, it's going to be whatever a particular die was ground to whether SB or standard.

MM

Just Redding, Lee and RCBS.

You can set up the die to bump the shoulder back to different dimensions but how would you adjust a die to size down the base of the case to different dimensions? That is where cases get stuck in chambers, at least from my experience in getting stuck rounds out of an AR.

I have been looking for a regular 223 die set, and found one today. I did a quick test to see the difference in sizing. Both are RCBS die sets. I measured just above the extractor groove.

Factory Federal ammo: 0.3725
Fired unsized brass: 0.3745 - 0.3755 (2 pieces)
Sized with the regular FL die: 0.3735 (2 pieces)
Sized with the SB FL die: 0.3725 (2 pieces)

The shoulder was bumped back the same by both dies: 1.452 from 1.457 of unsized brass. I have a big batch of range pickup brass that is cleaned, but still needs sized. I am going to try the regular die on some of them first and check to see how the brass fits the chambers. I also need to do a better job of measuring fired brass from the various rifles. Just from the looks, the TC Encore seems to have a generous chamber.

A few months back, I picked up Rem 700 in 308. It would not chamber the ammo I loaded from an older Rem in 308. It was the diameter of the base that was causing the problem. Nothing to do with the shoulder. I was using a Redding die set. I ran a test back then with the Redding FL and NS die set, RCBS regular set, and RCBS SB die set.

Fired cases from the older 308: 0.4695
Both the Redding FL and NS die: 0.4695 (no change)
RCBS Reg FL die: 0.468
RCBS SB die: 0.4665

I had to run all the previously sized brass back through the SB die so I could continue to use that brass. I am now back to the Redding set since the older Remington is currently getting rebarreled. BTW, I picked up that 308 SB die while building a AR-10 for my son. Turned out that the barrel had a largish chamber and the regular dies worked out fine.

Guess I’ve just been lucky all these years...

To be honest, I probably could have gotten by with the regular RCBS set. The problem I had early on was reloads that had been fired from a Savage bolt action and resized with Lee dies. I went straight to the SB dies when that ammo stuck in my AR chamber and never looked back until now. As I stated earlier, I am going to run a test on this range pick up I have to see If I will be able to get by with the regular set. That first AR barrel is now on my son's AR so I will have to keep a watch for that.

If SB dies are working there’s no reason to quit.

I started off loading with Lee dies of all things, they worked and were cheap. I still have their collet die and a crimp die. But I’ve seriously loaded thousands of rounds for probably about 25 or more AR’s that I’ve owned with a regular RCBS full length sizing die. I never had a problem.

How many angels will fit on the point of a (firing) pin? And would a SB die make room for a few more?

How big are the angels?

Are they acute or obtuse angles?

There's a cute one and a few a little obtuse. Need more flight time.

I'd be quite pissed if all I got from AR brass was 9 or 10 loadings. Just me. 25-30 times usually pretty easily.

But we all get there different ways. I"ve used new brass once in an AR. nickel plated RP for the wife 600 yard ammo for some reason. I can't recall why though. When we loaded up to 20.,000 plus rounds a year for the years we shot you forget some reasons.

I have a SB die for 223. Just in case. I can't recall ever using it. Its still in the original box. We can neck size AR brass a few times and be just fine.

That said we bought or got brass fired in others guns almost exclusively. Like once fired LC brass.

All we sized with was Redding FL bushing dies. Never an issue.

As to comments on the Wylde chamber, its a normal 5.56 chamber with tighter neck. No way that one would need special sizing. Its set up that way on purpose. There are tighter reamers, I've had em, never an issue still.

Now, will a SB die decrease internal capacity. Yes. The way it works there is no physical way it can't. Is it enough to worry about powder charges. Nope. Not at all.

back when I was reloading for the AR, I always wondered why a normal 223 die would always size brass no matter what the source of the brass to fit fine in a 5.56 chamber.

So very well said.

And IF you size too much you could theoretically be thinking if it barely fits, then lets size it until it easily fits... you could be setting up for misfires or no fires... you do have to have a clue of what you are doing and whats required.

And my one shot groups these days tell me SO much more than a 10 or 20 shot group ever will.