The son of a friend of mine is looking for his first AR in .223. He wants it for home defense (he lives unfortunately in Memphis) and feels he needs more firepower than his 9mm daily carry. He also wants something he can take to the range to enjoy.

I have several RockRiver ARs and they all shoot incredibly well, however all are heavy barrel and not the best solution for home defense.

His budget is $1,000ish for the firearm and another $600ish for a red dot or scope. He hasn't decided yet on optics.

He's looking at - https://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=2111

But is open to other ideas. So considering his budget, what would you recommend? (Other than moving of course)

Stag or Rock River.

Go to PSA, spend $600'ish on a 16" MSR. while you're there, pick up a Holosun 503 . Then get a case of ammo and shoot the thing. No more screwing around with man-boy furniture stuff or pimple-ranching operator-wannabe gizmos.

Sig Tread 400?

That'll work...but definitely wring it out good before declaring it home defense worthy.

1. Sionics Patrol Rifle (chrome lined)1200
2. IWI Zion (nitride barrel) 850
3. PSA premium upper (CHF, chrome lined) plus PSA
lower, 600

Springfield Saint ST916556BM $831
Best buy in its price point

https://www.impactguns.com/semi-aut...-stock-30rd-706397926410-st916556bm#wiki

https://www.springfield-armory.com/...int-556-m-lok-ar-15-rifle-pic-gas-block/

Most any.

AR’s have been around long enough and mass produced enough that nearly every manufacturer knows how to make an AR that is reliable for home and range use. Just make sure to run a number of rounds through it like you would with any other gun before trusting it and keep it oiled. AR’s like 1911’s like to run a little wet.

I have AR’s ranging from super low budget to low budget PSA to midrange Colt, Areo, Spikes, BCM, and DD. I’ve never had one that wasn’t reliable for home defense and range use right out of the box or as assembled. It’s not as though it’s being taken into a war zone and being expected to withstand a daily beating or high volume shooting with sustained firefights.

If it were me I’d look for a pencil profile nitrided or chrome lined barrel, a milspec receiver, a good bolt, a stock that locks up without any slop, and a decent trigger. Money spent on a high end rail is overrated unless you want to splurge, they’re not a bang for the buck item.

I've been impressed with my Primary Arms sale Andro Corp 16" mid length for a budget AR.

$449 right now.

Andro Corp AR

https://www.springfield-armory.com/...-rifles/saint-victor-556-ar-15-rifle-b5/

I just went over to Palmetto State Armory (PSA) and checked prices.
You can get a decent 16" AR sub-$500. A sig Romeo RDS (has shake awake which I like) for $120 and suddenly you have a pile of money to buy a case or two of ammo and shoot the thing - which is the most important aspect of buying an AR. Far too many pimple-ranchers buy doo-dads but never shoot - ya gotta get the rounds in.

As TheLastLemming76 opined above, it is a very mature platform that is hard to screw up - no need to buy a name.

Anything that you like from BCM or FN.

But we also have 3 14.7" uppers with FN barrels from PSA that have been 100% solid & bullet proof.

None of the above can be called precision guns as they all have Chrome lined barrels, but they are all more than adequate, all going a consistent 1 1/4 - 1 1/2" with good ammo.

MM

If you're going PSA, get the Sabre line. FN made CHF barrel, great trigger. Still in his budget.

CHF barrel Sabre rifle

Slap these two products together for a very accurate rifle with plenty of room in the budget for a good optic. I was guided toward this by the members here and could not be happier.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...p158-nickel-boron-bcg-ch-5165449759.html

https://palmettostatearmory.com/blem-psa-ar15-complete-moe-ept-stealth-lower-black.html

Same barrel is in their other premium uppers too.

You can even get a Geiselle rail in some versions if you want to pay the price.

MM

For those who don't want to put one together there are a ton of options. All of mine except for an Armalite I got years ago have been pieced together. Here is my latest franken gun. With the new (er) front hand guards you only need a crescent wrench to build an upper.

Here is my latest franken gun. 16" chrome lined DelTon barrel and Midway USA bolt carrier group. Everything else was in a drawer or box I had in my workshop.
kwg

I have this upper,

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165450023.html

And this lower,

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...trigger-black-no-magazine-516444743.html

If a guy just wants a decent priced lower and doesn't mind not having a good 2 stage trigger he can get several of their lowers for well under $200.

Also buy one of their ammo/P-Mag packages.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/vor...ul-gen2-pmag-30rd-5-56x45-magazines.html

Pretty good advice on the PSA it works for me..mb

The Sionics is the only option I’d choose of everything mentioned. And it’s an excellent choice. Or this….. https://www.primaryarms.com/sons-of-liberty-gun-works-m4-patrol-sl-5-56-nato-ar-15-rifle-16in

When you see a lot of rifles come through a program you see trends develop. The budget brands consistently have failures.

And anyone who says that ARs are “figured out” is right. The recipe for a reliable AR is available. And only a handful of companies follow the recipe. Nearly every brand mentioned will have serious issues.

You'd have to be a total [bleep] to spend $1235 on a first AR for someone who isn't likely to shoot more than a hundred rounds a year. What planet are you from anyway?
I think your experience only applies to the tiny percentage of AR users who play games or do classes.

I always appreciate your advice, and the advice of others here like TWR, and even Blue. Blue has probably seen so many different types of cheap AR's and the failures associated with them. I still consider myself new to the platform, but it would be nice if some of you guys with more knowledge and experience would lay down the important stuff that will keep an ar functioning 100%. I will list some of the things off the top of my head:

1. Buy a GOOD BCG!!! That could mean RCA, Noveske, BCM, even some Tool Craft premium BCG's are good stuff.
2. Buy a good, well known barrel. FN, Ballistic Advantage (Aero Precision), WOA if you have the extra coin.
3. Make sure stuff is properly staked.
4. Proper gas tube.
5. Gas block. That does not mean it has to be a high dollar AGB either. I prefer non adjustable gas blocks that are fastened properly. Guys running cans should probably use the AGB.
6. Run the proper buffer springs and buffer for the loads you run. That doesn't mean a high dollar JP silent captured spring system either. A cheaper Armaspec stealth recoil spring system works just fine if you want to try, but not spend so much $
7. Trigger: Single stage, 2 stage, that's up to you. They all work, but offer different feels. I prefer a real smooth trigger pull at around 3.5 pounds. That is either single or 2 stage, doesn't matter there. The RRA 2 stage varmint match is a damn good trigger for the money (less than $80 most times).
8. Upper and lower receivers. Most are about the same and you are paying for a name. Some are worth a little more money, as the tolerances are tighter and the finishes are better. Just don't get a poly lower!!
9. Upgrades like an Ambi charge handle are top of my list. The Radian Raptors are very nice.
10. The sky is really the limit on other upgrades you may want to get. Stock, grip, handguards, bad lever, LPK of your choice.

The moral of the story, if you put one together, put good/great parts in it. Make sure things are lined up perfectly (like your gas block) and properly held in place so it will not come apart. Barrel properly torqued down and even bedded in some cases. I've never had a single issue with any of my AR's and I used to shoot them a lot. My favorite is a Northtech Defense, but most guys here have never heard of that one. I have well over 10,000 rounds on that one without a single failure. The first AR I bought was a cheap Rogue Defense that was built in Oregon. It runs flawlessly as well, but uses a RCA bcg. I've changed barrels on that rifle 4 times now, gave it to my dad and then got it back after he passed away. That rifle has also ran flawlessly. However, I don't know if I'd suggest buying from a small town no name AR builder in Oregon. It's a damn good rifle though. The finish is tough as a diamond and the damn thing runs and has ran thousands of rounds down range. Shot my smallest group at 400 yards with it last year, after I got a Bushmaster HBAR on it.

It really boils down to what parts you put in it, and how it's assembled. [bleep] parts and no attention to detail will leave you stranded. Don't be one of those guys..

It's good to seek the advice of those who do this for a living. My experience with ARs is shooting 3 gun and as a recreational shooter with 30+ years of experience.

My experience and views are different than an instructor who sees hundreds of shooters and rifles. It's the difference between a car salesman and a car mechanic.

I'm not buying that at all.

BCM & FN are both known for quality & being reliable.

Sionics & SOLGW are not the only people who build good AR's.

And my own builds are as good as any..................& I own 3 KAC's.

MM

Not everyone looking for their first AR wants to spend a lot of money on it. BUT !! Buy once and cry once. My first was an Armalite. I have developed one problem with it in 15 years. The dust cover spring no longer holds the door open. It looks like it has spun loose. (?) That is an impressive AR Bluedreaux.

kwg

Jee Whiz, pard.

Uhh, sure.

LOL

I love when a first AR for home defense and plinking becomes "you need a tier-1 XXXX"


I did the rifle, handgun, and both optics for a grand (not including the upgraded trigger)




It's not what I'd take to a class, but it'll more than do for the OP's started purpose

I said nearly.

Of the 15ish brands that have been mentioned in this thread, BCM and FN have been mentioned once. I’m sure they’d both be fine, even though FN mailed us a dozen rifles with loose castle nuts.

What does it bring his first home defense AR have to do with it?

If you wouldn’t trust it for a weekend larp, why should you trust it to save your life?

Because it goes bang every time I squeeze the trigger.

I actually brought the picture rifle/optic to a competition and shot some of the rifle portion after my run with that rifle. It did just fine.

https://www.brownells.com/guns/rifl...45mm-nato-semi-auto-rifle/?sku=430102254

If your friend could find one of these for $1000, in my opinion I would buy it over a PSA, or RRA.

https://www.colt.com/detail-page/colt-le6920-carbine-223556-161-301-pmag-mbus-4-pos-stk-blk

I have a S&W MP-15 I'd let go for a fair price.

I was where your friend was a couple years ago and bought this rifle. I shot a few boxes through it. It worked flawlessly and helped me figure out what I liked and didn't. I built a rifle for myself and a carbine for my lovely bride on Anderson lowers and various parts. I really like the LaRue trigger for $89.

So now this one is available. It has the A2 (?) front sight blade so I found optics troublesome. Something to think about.

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/m-p-15-sport-ii

What were the failures you saw with the Saints?

Google - Springfield Armory Saint failures

You'll get lots of hits. The Saint is a hard no.

[video:youtube]https://youtube.com/shorts/4XyLt_a17nw?si=aGtKMT3xnPjlVhSa[/video]

Our failure list is at work. I’ll check it next week.

That would be a very interesting list.

Thanks for the effort.

I purchased this upper to go with an Anderson lower and purchased lower build kit from PSA as well. It shoots great but did need some breaking in. Since about 50 rounds, it shoots and cycles everything I throw at it including some lighter plinking rounds that I loaded. I have over 1000 through it now without a failure of any kind.

My friend's son chose the Rock River Rrage 2G and got a smoking deal on it at $600 from Smokey Mountains Guns and Ammo. I had an extra Vortex Razor HD that was donated to the cause.

Based on his comments, he's now very interested in 3 gun (thus the Razor) so this will not be his last AR platform. Good to see the next gen getting involved.

If it's his first rifle, don't piece one together. Just buy a complete rifle from a good company.

It's nice to pick and choose exactly what you want, but you've gotta get all the crap together to build it.

Also, you may have to deal with stuff not fitting as it should. In my very small sample size of receivers, I've had upper that would NOT pin on my PSA SBR lower without wallowing out the pin holes.

Rarely hear of the Ruger MPR.

How does it rate??

Initially the Ruger MPR was a dismal rifle. Countless complaints about FTF/FTE issues. If you read current posts on the Ruger Forum, their reliability issues are still a challenge.

Bull. You don't know jack [bleep] so don't spread FUD.

The MPR with the 18" barrel and rifle length gas system is a nice rifle for the $700-$800 price point. Comes with a very good two-stage trigger.

Once a guy has a lower, he can put whatever upper on it he wants. But if you're starting out, the Ruger MPR is a very nice rifle from a company that will stand behind it so that you don't have to troubleshoot on a forum.

Spend 5 minutes googling Ruger MPR problems.

Plenty to choose from,

https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/ar15-guns/rifles.html?caliber_multi=5.56x45mm

Thanks, I’d really be interested in what you saw.

You dumb [bleep], you can find problems with any brand via Google. Probably found your own moronic post.

It's pretty hard now days to find a schitty AR but you sure got it done.

Congratulations?


Exactly this.


Good job on the Razor.

LOL

MM

That Rock River doesn't sound like a bad rifle at all. Kudos to you on the donation of the Razor. I've looked through one several times. A friend who works at an LGS near me has the 1-6 on his primary AR. It's some pretty darn nice glass, for sure. The only downside is they sure don't give them away. Around $1500 if I remember correctly.

Ruger will stand behind a product, and they often have to. They had to with my Ruger AR. Got it back and it's a friggin shooter. The last time I shot it, it did these two groups. I shot the one to the left, then made an adjustment to put me 1.5 high. That was the last of that particular load.

Good deal. And for the record, I never said they weren't accurate; just not reliable out of the box.

Glad you got yours shooting! Now move the target from 15 yards to 100.

So I'm in the market for an "upscale" M4. My son (former 3rd Ranger Battalion) wants me to go Colt. I'm leaning towards Daniel Defense. I want absolute reliability, but also accuracy, fit and finish. Which would you recommend?

KAC or LMT, buy once, cry once.

MM

My Colt 6920 isn't in the same zip code as LaRue, Geissele, LMT, Centurion Arms, or DD

Anything wrong or need to be upgraded with either the Daniel Defense line or the Colt 6920's?

My Colt trigger sucked. It didn't NEED to be replaced, but it was.

yeah, I replaced with Geissele.

That, on sale, or an MBT if paying full price for me. Both have been GTG.

Not that I am aware of. The Colt or DD is good to go. Slip 2000 EWL on the bolt and carrier, and the gun just runs.

Blem Geissele triggers are ridiculously cheap right now. I believe a G2S is <$100.

Depends on what you mean by “accuracy”. In the reliable market SOLGW has the best anodizing, hands down. Geissele is an excellent choice and on sale right now. A Super Duty for $1600 is a lot of gun for the money.

Sionics would likely be the most accurate, based on my experience. I’ve tested 5 of their 5R barrels and they’ve all been 1.75” or less for 10 shots with ball ammo. Mine regularly shoots 1.25-1.5” for 10 shots.

Aero Precision 300 BLK here

That is probably all the more reason for the person who may only shoot 100 rounds per year. I have 2 ARs that probably don't see 200 rounds a year both are higher end rifles, one is an DD Mk 12 set up for daytime predator hunting, the other is a RRA FRed Eichler series set up for night use. I have a few others that probably get shot a metric shidt ton more than those, and they are what most would consider a budget gun. they are each built for different purposes

Centurion is highly under rated as lots of people just don't know their name, but they make a really top shelf gun.

I'd take a Centurion any day over a DD.

MM

I like that accuracy test, 10 shots. I think most people shoot 3-5 and call it good. I need to try that a few times!

I'm admittedly a Geissele fan. They sponsor cola warriors stuff, and are awesome.

Despite that, objectively, super duty rifles are awesome.