What is a good entry level AR?? Looking for a 16" carbine to upgrade as I like ..what kind of price are we looking at?? Thanks for the advice.

I believe the OLy Arms are pretty reasonably priced and have a decent reputation. If it were me I may look at the used market and pick up a lightly used RR, DPMS or Stag for the same or a little more.

The DPMS Sportical ("Sport/Tactical) retails for $679 around here, comes with two thirty round mags and is a decent buy. I've had my eye on one for awhile now...

Ditto DPMS. Esox357.

get a Stag arms they make the S&W M&P and are well regarded as a mid price/performance range gun. Do some research at AR15.com

Stag makes their own barrels I understand as well.

Another vote for the DPMS Sportical.

I picked one up Saturday for $599 and it is a quality rifle with excellent fit and finish.

FYI...Did not come with a dust cover or forward assist and you will need optics or iron sights for it.

I hear the Stag is the best for low cost because it is up to military specifications while most other companies cut corners to save money

I have been in the same quandry, yesterday I settled on a Stag A2. 16" barrel removeable carry handle it came with 1 30 round mag and I bought 2 more P-mags (they are great). Its very fun to shoot.
Oh it also has a lifetime warranty don't know if I'll ever need it but the selling point was good.

Not that Stag is bad for the price, depending on your wants and needs, but the Stag Model 1 is about as far from mil spec as one can get. If mil spec is important to you there are other manufacturers who get closer and don't cost an arm and a leg more.

Mil spec vs a working gun..... it all kinda gets lost in the fray IMHO these days... even the issues with butt tubes being different sizes... are we gonna swap a stock in a combat situation...

I'm not down on milspec but its been so misused the last years with the AR platform IMHO.

Jeff

When you say entry level, how much money do you have?

Yep, the use of the term has gotten close to NM proportions.;)

Welcome to the campfire. A lifetime warranty ant a bad thing.

I had the chance to shoot a buddy's Stag Model 1 last week. Not much to tell other than the trigger was pretty crisp for a non-target model AR (especially compared to my Colt), and it ran through several magazines in a short period of time with no malfunctions. We had it smoking pretty good as the factory oil cooked off.

I also the idea of a lifetime warranty. Combined with a chrome lined barrel, a dousing of CLP should be all that's needed to provide a user with lots of worry free trigger time.

Not sure if it would be considered Entry Level or not, but I just picked up a Bushmaster 16" M4 Optics Ready Carbine a few months back ($804.00 shipped). I added a Bushnell Elite 3200 1.5x4.5x32mm Firefly Rifle Scope in Weaver 1" High Extension Quad Lock 4x4 Scope Rings (on top of the supplied 1/2" Risers) and just love this Rifle. I had a large quanity of 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip Handloads (left over from a previous AR that I sold) so that is what I have been shooting in this Bushmaster.

I couldn't be happier with this Bushmaster. Yes the trigger is not the greatest, but I have a JP Enterprises Fire Control System to put in it when I get time. I wouldn't have believed that this lightweight 16" Carbine would shoot groups at 100 yards from the bench as good as the DPMS Panther Bull 20 Fluted that I previous had would shoot, but it does.

So far carrying this Bushmaster in my work vehicle I have managed to take 4 Coyotes with it, as well as several skunks and racoons. My wife just loves the 6 position adjustable buttstock that came on my Bushmaster as now I finally have a Rifle with a buttstock that is the right length for both of us.

My nephew has been looking really hard at the DPMS 16" Sportical, however he is on medical leave from his job currently so I may have to wait a while before I can try one out for myself. I have read a few posts on different forums of guys that have recently purchased the DPMS 16" Sportical, and I can't say that I have read anything bad about them as yet.

Good luck with your final decision and choice, and welcome to the world of the AR-15. I fought it long and hard, and now don't see how I ever got along without one for as long as I did. They really do grow on a guy and are addicting.

Larry

I've dealt with AR's for many many years. There are good brands and bad brands. There are ones that are more suited for some purposes than others.

First thing you need to decide is what you intend to do with it. Will it be a casual plinker, maybe some hunting. Will you want it to be used as a gun you may stake your life on someday? If it was my first AR I would want something capable to fight with. I would look at getting an upgrade someday for hunting maybe.

With these needs in mind, then set your budget. You could go inexpensive and get something from Olympic, DPMS, RRA, or Bushmaster. Depending on what you want to do with the rifle, it may or not meet your needs. They aren't guns I would stake my life on.

I prefer to use an M4-type built by a manufacturer that either follows a certain Technical Data Package (TDP)that the military laid out are specific specs. These specs include metal type,, proof tested bolts and barrels, and generally include standards such as proper staking of gas keys and castle nuts, M4 feedramps, and others that are preferred.

People that own lower-grade AR's may say that they work for them, shoot everytime for 1000 rounds, etc... That may be, but where the extra money that is spent on extra quality shows is when the AR is subjected to some abuse.

I carry an M4-type daily. Most of the time it just rides and rarely needs to be brought out. However, training time is when some of this abuse comes in. Many many rounds are fired, getting the gun hot. Weather plays a part, and rain, snow, dust begin to accumilate in the action. Magazines are dropped and more dust, dirt and sand accumilate. These are all conditions that may occur if in a fight. If your weapon survives you know it will serve you when you need it.

I personally recommend something like an LMT, Charles Daly, Colt, Noveske, etc... Stag, S&W and others are out there, but they also have taken shortcuts to maximize profits. Colt and Noveske are pretty pricey but are absolute top of the line. Charles Daly has a number of specs like the Colt and is looking promising so far.

Anyhow, it mostly boils down to what exactly you desire from the rifle, and go from there.

TS,

I'm looking for a rifle I can stake my life on cause that's what I'll be doing. I don't have a lot of cash, so maybe the Stag or S&W would fit the bill?

I agree with the only exception being Charles Daly! Every CD gun I've handled or fired has been pretty, decently fitted, but with a short service life. I have no experience with their AR's, but their shotguns and 1911's have not been impressive. Who makes their AR's, and where, if I may ask?

TacticalSquirrel are you a special operations guy or a policeman? I am not so sure you are right here, someone who was around these guns a bit would know that Noveske is a very good guns, the LMT is also a good gun in the same price range as the Noveske but the lowers are not finished as well as the Noveske. Finally the LMT barrels are no where near the quality of Noveske as John was a former PacNor employee who's main claim to fame is his barrels. Finally how can you say RRA is not a good gun, the DEA uses the RRA full auto gun? Colt is a good gun, but probably no better or worse than the LMT. I will grant you that Stag is considered a lower quality gun, but they do not make the S&W gun any longer, the store where I shop has had some problems with S&W guns, but not with Stag. I think Bushmaster is probably equal to Stag, I had one and for some reason I had to run the rear sight all the way to the left to get the gun on target...it went down the road at a loss. Anyway just my two cents.

I don't have any military background, but I've been in Law Enforcement since 1994 and of that 8 years tactical experience with a part time assignment as well as various experience and training working with patrol rifles.

I never said Noveske wasn't a good option. I don't have one so I can't comment on specifics. What I can comment on was what I discussed with a officer who's agency issues them at a carbine training I attended recently. I believe I also reccommended the LMT, so I'm not quite sure what you are saying I'm wrong about? You may have misread something. Quote me what you feel I'm in error on.

The original poster was looking for an entry level AR. Noveske's do make nice barrels, but and the price reflects it as well.

Rock River Arms heavily touts that the DEA uses their rifles. Notice how no other big agencies are following their footsteps? RRA guns have M4 feedramps that are dremeled in, 1/9 twist (Should be 1/7 for their uses!), is not 4150 barrel steel, does not follow a standard technical data package per military standards, no staking on the castle nut, gas key needs further staking, a commercial vs mil diameter receiver extension, etc... Just because an agency has purchased something does not mean it is the best choice. Look at the politics involved between the military M14 selection and M16 selection?

The choices I recommend for an entry level AR are few, and they depend ultimately what the end user intends for the rifle.

Stag Arms------less than $1K.

I just looked at my RRA's carbine, the M4 feedramnps are milled in, they look uniform and smooth. Do you own one as well, perhaps you have an upper made by someone else? I don't know if the RRA has a technical data package whatever that is, the bolt and bolt carrier look identical in every way to a Colt sporter bolt and bolt carrier that I just sold. I had not cleaned my RRA Carbine since I got it, I have shot over 30 + boxes of ammunition in it. So far no problems at all, I just cleaned it last week for the first time, mostly I just spray it with CLP, it has a chromed barrel and chamber... It shoots into about 2 inches at 100 with XM193 and with Blackhills reloads using 60 grain Hornady Vmax bullets this is the best I can do with an Comp ML3 aimpoint 2MOA dot. At any rate I misread your comments on Noveske, yes they are good guns, I just ordered one. I am winding up with the Noveske Light Recce with VIS an NXS 1-4 scope on it with Unimount, zero stop and FC-2 reticle. I think I will keep the poor old RRA carbine as well.

It was well known at one time that the feed ramps were dremeled. Perhaps they have started to finally machine them properly? I have not seen one in a while. The ones I am aware of came from the factory dremeled.

The Technical Data Package (TDP) is a set if standards to follow, such as the specific type/grade of 4150 steel to be used for the barrel. Very few manufacturers follow it. Colt and BCM are two I am aware of.

Bolts and carriers will look the same. However, chances are good they are not the same. One of the things that the higher grade/tier manufacturers do is HPT and MPI tests on barrels and bolts. Basically to oversimplify it, proof loads are fired and the barrels and bolts are tested for flaws in the metal. The better manufacturers such as Colt, LMT and BCM test EACH and EVERY barrel and bolt. Others only test one from a particular batch as a cost savings. Rock River does not test them individually.

How many rounds to a box? 20 or 50? If 20 then you've shot probably 500 rounds thorugh your rifle? That may be ok for a hobby gun or varmint rifle. I prefer to assure reliablility for a duty rifle by shooting about 1000 rounds to get it heated up, dirty, dusty, and if see where I have malfunctions, if any. Any parts that will come loose or be prone to breaking will do so during this run through instead of when I need it. The original poster may not need this degree of reliability, but if he plans on using it for defense he should.

Keep on keeping your RRA lubed and it should serve you well as well. Consider FP10 or Slip2000 for lubes instead of CLP, as they will function better in more conditions, including when its cold when CLP will thicken.

Sounds like you have an excellent Noveske setup. I'm jealous on that one... I've had excellent accuracy through blue-box Black Hills reloads aswell. Wish they were more available.

I assume that by "CLP" you're referring to Break Free. Just a point of clarification------------FP-10 is also a CLP, but with a great temp range, and no PTFE flakes to keep in suspension like Break Free. I think some of the Slip2000 products are CLPs too.

Yup, Breakfree. A previous agency of mine got a few gallons of the stuff from the DRMO... that crap lasted forever! It seemed like as people used it, it just multiplied and wouldn't go away. So when I think of CLP I think of the military breakfree stuff.

For the first AR-15, I would get a MIL spec vanilla rifle, like the Bushmaster XM-15.

For defense in the house and carrying in a vehicle, I like the lightweight 16-inch carbines with collapsible stock.

I have extensive experience with Colt, LMT, and Bushmaster. I can recommend Colt and LMT without reservation. Although none of them are perfect all the time, with many of the brands you will learn a lot more about maintenance and repair than you will with the so called Tier 1 manufacturers. Maybe more than you want to. I've run my Colt and LMT carbines hard while going through some training classes and they have held up well. Last year I attended the NRA Tactical Shooter Instructor Course and all rifle problems I saw were with non Colt guns.

For information on different manufacturers see the chart in the link below.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

I agree. I've learned all of my personal maintenance issues from Olympic, DPMS, and Armalite weapons, and seen lots of maintenance issues still from Bushmaster, RRA, and CMMG.