When I get some money, hopefully before the election just in case the outcome is bad, I'd like to get either an AR-15 or a Mini-14.

I've had both before but I'm just wondering how you guys would choose, one over the other? With factory 20-round mags now available for the Mini, and new tooling for the "more accurate" barrels, is it a more viable choice? I was limited to hit-or-miss aftermarket mags when I owned mine.

I did like the manual of arms and simplicity of the Mini but I'm just wondering if I should have the rifle our gov.org uses as my "Minuteman" rifle.

You can do way more with an AR, I have only seen 1 Mini-14 that would shoot and that was with extensive work....maybe the new ones shoot better I dont know but the older ones were usually a spray and pray.
Go with the AR, I think you will be much happier.

Thanks, that's what I figured...

Ditto on what Tom264 said. I had a mini 14 once. It was minute of "target" at 100 yds!

At the very least buy a stripped AR-15 lower before the election to have on hand. or a complete lower. That was my tact, but since I couldn't decide on an upper, I ended up with a second complete ar-15.

They are such a flexible platform that I just coudn't see getting a mini. Also what is the barrel twist on the mini? Typical ar-15's are 1-9 which will launch up to most 70 gr even in the 16" barrel, and you can go 1-8 or 1-7 for the really heavy bullets.

My thoughts are get a good ar lower, then choose your upper, maybe a 16" M4 for general use, and a 20" flat top w/ a fast twist barrel for longer range work.

I have had 3 mini 14s I really liked the handling of the little rifle, I could go on for a long time but just get an AR-15, get a Colt LE carbine if you can afford it, or an LMT or Noveske. Some are saying the new Charles Dailey gun is good I don't know on this one, but I do know from first hand experience about LMT, Colt and Noveske. Despite anything anyone else tells you, there seem to be no Mini14s in use by todays military forces except perhaps The Republic of Cartoon in Backdoor Cameroon.

One of the cheapest routes to go is the RRA car a-4 kit get a stripped lower locally for ~$150 and you have your complete gun for ~$800. Oh yeah, a couple bucks for a rear sight. The upper is fully assembled, and lowers are pretty easy to put together.

Another vote for the AR.

BMT

AR for sure. Many, many options to choose from.

No question, get an AR-15. You get MUCH more rifle, with much more flexibility, quality, accuracy, parts swapability (was that a word?), etc.



Look again at the AR-15. It just doesn't get much simpler than that.

Have fun!

Years ago, I had a brand new Mini 14 for about 3 weeks. It was, and still is, the biggest POS that I've ever had the misfortune to own. You might be able to hit something if you could get close enough to club it with the Mini. Otherwise forget it. It should be a crime to use the words accuracy and Mini 14 in the same sentence. I replaced the Mini with an AR and there's no comparison. Like the others have said, get an AR and don't look back.

I had a brand new one about two years ago. I did like it, it was a sweet handling little gun. I've had probably 4 factory ARs and built three on RRA receivers, so I wasn't unfamiliar with the platform...

However, the Mini worked great until it had 500 or so rounds down the pipe. Then all of a sudden the groups started opening up, and at one point I had to kick the bolt open a couple of times during a shooting session -- no explanation for that.

I was shooting Federal surplus green-tip ammo. At closer ranges there was a lot of vertical stringing.

At 200 yards with iron sights I could put a hurting on a man-sized target -- not any group size, per se, but 15 out of every twenty rounds would hit center mass area. This stopped after I cleaned it twice and all of a sudden it opened up like a shotgun.

I was wondering if this was indicative of the gun as a whole or whether they had gotten better. I don't see why these guns can't be made to be more accurate...

Gas piston rusted to gas port or became so dirty it froze to gas port. I have seen it happen as well. Ruger is a good company, they make excellent quality rifles and pistols. The mini is just the odd man out for them. I would not hesitate to hunt with any of their rifles or doubt the quality of their bolts or pistols/revolvers for any reason

Find someone with an FFL and look into this as an entry level gun if you like:

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As featured on Page 85 of our Fall Dealer Hunting Catalog
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I had one of ther older Mini-14's and it was very inaccurate. I really liked the rifle but it shot so bad I couldn't justify keeping it and traded it off. I try to keep an open mind about things and when I heard they had re-tooled the production line for the Mini's I figured I would give them another try. I have one of the newer 580 series rifles and am very pleased with it. It'll do 1 1/2"-2" 100yd groups consistantly with good ammo and has NEVER jammed or failed to feed. every now and then it'll even shoot MOA, but not enough claim it. I take care of my guns so rust has never been a problem. They came out with even a newer version than mine of the Mini-14 this year. They call it the 581 series, it has a slightly larger contour barrel than the older one's. It's not as heavy as the target model, it's like one contour size up from the older one's. I like them for their intended purpose. they're light, they carry easy and shoot better than most folks are capible of off hand, all though most people will never admit that. You'll hear a lot of gripe's about Mini-14's and some are well deserved but most are about the older models. The newer ones are much better rifles.

All that said, if I was only going to own one "Patriot" rifle it would be an AR-15. I've owned Garands, FN FAL's, AK-47's, Mini-14's, SKS', a Galil and a HK93. The same could be said about those too. All nice rifles and some were very cool, but I just like the AR for it's seemingly inherit accuray, reliabilaty and flexablity. The two AR's I own now are both set up for extreme accuracy but I'm thinking about buying a chrome lined upper just to spray ammo with. Fun is where you find it.


Terry

I have several AR rifles by Colt and Bushmaster. I have a great little AR180B by Armalite.
I also have a pretty darn good 188 series Ruger Mini-14. Often folks will talk trash about the Mini, but have never really owned one. The constant negatives that they read is passed on as personal experience.
It amusing to read about how much money a fellow will pour into his AR to make it 'tactical' and more accurate, yet if another guy puts money into his Mini, his efforts are derided.

That being said, I will still take the AR platform over the Mini for the purpose of self defense in a time of social unrest, or political turmoil.
The reasons have nothing to do with how well the Ruger works, but center more on the availability of factory magazines and spare parts.

My Ruger will shoot two inch groups all day long, some groups even smaller. I have never experienced a failure of any sort, and have put well over 4K rounds through mine.

I have two AR's and one Mini-14 (an old one, 180 prefix.) The Mini is not on the same planet with the AR's with regard to accuracy. That said, IME it has been incredibly reliable with little or no maintenance. It has always gone bang and functioned with any kind of loads I've put in it. Almost like an AK. The Mini also (to me anyway) is a lot handier gun to carry around, more like carrying a gun as opposed to a piece of equipment. Overall, I like the AR's better. If you're into tricking out, either for performance or just to look like an action hero, there's a huge industry providing AR trick stuff.

Ruger may be good but they are anti gun and I"ll never forgive them for that....

THe AR is the hands down pick over the mini, though for about 2500 bucks a mini will shoot with a good AR, but the AR is all there and versatile, no question here, AR all the way.

Jeff

For about $300 over the cost of the rifle, a Mini will shoot with a 'good' AR.
No amount of money will ever get a Mini to shoot with a 'great' AR though, the platforms are just too different. The AR is just a much better design when it comes to tweaking it for accuracy.

My point all along here, was that the Mini is no where near as bad as the internet chatter says. For what they are, and for what they were designed to do, they are fine.

I"d bet money any day on a "good" AR outshooting a 300 buck doctored mini. Any day. I"ve seen it too often that even the cheap ARs will shoot knots once the right load is tweaked....

They are a fairly reliable, 2-4 moa gun much like a lot of 30-30s, and suffice for many things. From an anti gun company.

There was a movie about a bank or armored car robbery that starred 'Starsky', in which he used a Mini-14 and raved about it...
Anybody remember the name of the movie?

AMEN.

BMT

Interestingly enough though, they are a mini take off of the M14 and somewhere Ruger dropped the ball badly, every new rack grade M1A I've shot, not bedded or anything, was capable of around moa accuracy with the right loads, I've never really seen a mini come that close without work.

The newer ones are very close in accuracy potential to the M14. The new 581 series rifles with the new barrels may very well hit the mark.

I respectfully disagree with your comment about Ruger being anti-gun. The man wasn't very politically savoy and tried to make a deal that would save the majority of his product lines during the gun grabs of the Clinton administration. His pitch was to restrict magazine capacity to 15 rounds. It was a bad move but it wasn't anti-gun. He was behind the 8 ball and he knew it. He's dead now anyway and this American company employs thousands of workers. I see no need to boycott them or their products.

I whole hartedly agree about getting an AR-15 over a Mini-14 if you're only going to have one. I would say the same thing if the choice was an AR-14 and M14 too.

Oh BTW, thanks for turning me onto that book BLACK MAGIC. I'm about half way through it and find it a fun read.

Terry

If you are a pretty lousy shot and will settle for 3 or 4 MOA for accuracy get a cheap mini 14. Otherwise follow the good advice the 'fire provided.

Wayne

3 or 4 MOA? That's a load of crap.

If I could only have one it would be an Ar-15, that being said though I have owned a couple mini-14's and a mini-30 and have never had any problems with reliability. I currently own the new mini-14 and like it a lot. The sights have been improved IMO and the rifle shoulders great for me.

For quick handling I would grab the mini

For 100% reliability and ease of take down I would grab my Colt AR.

If the gun is to be an insurance policy in the event of social unrest I would not choose either. I would go with an AK. All you guys worried about tight groups will be much more interested in reliability if the crap hits the fan. Sure ARs and the Rugers are fun to trick out and many ARs are very accuate, but in a dire situation the AK has no equal!

more silliness.

Shades of the A team! If you like the Mini 14 buy it, buy some ammo and shoot it! Get back to us and let us know if you still like it after you have had it for a while! I did this 3 times! All kidding aside the NRA rag reported 2-3 MOA IIRC, if this is OK with you and you like the gun then buy it!

3-4 moa is not far off, if I were after a mini for sure, I'd buy about 4 at a good price, find the most accurate and sell the rest.

We had a warden here that had one that jammed constantly, but I think thats far from common, I've shot them a fair amount and like them but never was impressed with lack of accuracy.

If the SHTF, I can manage whatever gun I need pretty quickly.

Jeff

TC, I"m reading backwards tonight, have not tried the new ones, but now that you say it, I think I read they were reworked to get some flaws out... you are probably right and I stand corrected, I'm limited to older ones and ranch rifles....

as to the anti gun thing, I hope the bastard rots in his grave, all he did was cave in, and thats a liberal bastard to me. Its my opinion though, so it can't be wrong, it can be different though from others though.
I'll do my best to never buy another ruger, used if at all. The SOB should have stood with the rest instead of trying to weasel out a deal for the almighty dollar. So I choose to never again buy a new one... They do have some I could use though, but I'm sure not a 77 fan, I despise that rifle... I've had many headaches with them period for others.

I will leave this that ruger isn't the only bastard company out there, but they rank the same as that bastard gunwriter a while back, I've luckily forgotten his name by now.

Hope Black Magic is informative, I got an email from Walt Kuleck about their new AR???? book the other day and just burst out laughing at the thieves efforts.

Jeff

Jim Zumbo, just to help you out, Jeff.

And I don't understand those guys who are still mad at S&W for what happened when they were owned by that damn British company. New people now and have been for a few years.

I only wish I only had $ 300.00 into getting my rifles to shoot...

Get what tickles your fancy. I like both but for different purposes:

Get one of each: AR-say a 20 inch flattop DCM rifle with the lightest fluted SS barrel you can get to work with the floated handguard.

Mini-14; a 16 inch Mini with the two 20 round factory magazines and the heavier barrel. Get a Flash hider put on it, a bedding job and a trigger job.


AR's-

A flat top AR makes up into a dandy varminting rig and it is easy to get SS barrels/chrome bores which extends life somewhat [so I am told].

A 16 inch "Mid" or one of the 20" fluted flattops of some kind fits my version of a SHTF rifle because of it's similarity to the issue weapon while fitting one of my other uses well.[mags, bayonets, etc]. Chances of survivng the frst defensive firefight
seem pretty slim though.

The M-4 types with the quad rails are fun if you like gadgets or do a lot of house clearing.

They all have excellent iron sights and the shortest sight radius known to man.

You can build your own pretty cheap.

If you want to shoot DCM or IMHO High Power they are the way to go.

Some of the AR's are quite accurate. Some are not. A lot of the light barreled one's are 2-2.5 inch rifles as they come.

The heavier barreled versions tend to be more accurate and well, heavy.

We see mostly adjustable stock M-4 flat top style weapons at our range. The extra heavy varmint rigs are popular as well.


Mini-14-
I like my SS Synthetic Ranch Mini-14. A lot of that has to do with a gunsmith at Great West Gunsmithing in Salem, OR.

It shoots the first three into 1 1/2 inches or less and after that it strings them a bit.That is considerably better than some CARs and SP-1's that I am around.

They make a good knockabout gun for off season use. Light, short and rust resistant.

Mine have been very reliable. Much more so than the early M-16's and I do mean much.

With 64 gr Power Points I am comfy with killing a deer if I decide to. It will kill a coyote as far as I can hit without a rest and it doesn't bloodshot sage rats much.

I can lock it up.

It fits in a saddle scabbard.

It fits in a pickup gun rack.

I can shoot it prone as low as I can get without resting it on the magazine.

I can carry it on my shoulder with a sling and not have the magazine did me in the ribs.

It is glass bedded, shortened to 16.5 inches and has a flash hider from Choate that looks more like an M-14's [it also serves as a muzzle weight].

Also, the gunsmith fixed an earlier trigger job by an outfit in Connecticut.It was doubling.

I also had him drill a hole in the safety tab so I can lock it like an M-14.

Detachable sling swivels too.

I have an upgraded rear sight to put on it as well.

Have fun!

Gary

early on the light barrels were not accurate as heavier, the last 10 years or so I've not seen an inaccurate light AR barrel, one that with some load work would not shoot moa... I have a friend that has one though, bought the cheapy route model one sales type and it shots moa but took 40 grain bullets to do it.

FWIW.

Jeff

shades of the A team? Give me a break.:D

I like my Mini-14, and shoot it often. No, its not an AR15, but its a fun rifle, does what I want it to do, shoots 2 inch groups all day long, and has never had a failure to fire.

I have an early Colt AR15, Two Bushmasters, another Colt, an HBAR Match Targer, and a nice little Armalite.

I also have AKs, SKSs, a nifty little AR180B, two M1A Springfields. I have fun with them all.

so far as Bill Ruger and his decisions on magazines, parts and service, he is dead, and there are probably going to be changes made. S&W, and a number of other manufactures are probably not 'pure' enouth for some either. Run your life under whatever guidelines you feel fit. I just don't care, ya know?

ya dont' care, but we can both have our opinions as until and hopefully after november its still a free country.

Do you like your AK? I have one and won't get rid of it just because, but its the biggest most innacurrate POS I own. But it has gone bang each time... I"d rather have the SKS any day. Much more accurate, and extremely reliable.

Of course to be honest, I'm far past the plinking/blasting stage for whatever reason, I just happen to like accurate guns basically...

But have this urge for an old lever gun and some cast bullets...

Jeff

what type of ammunition does your Mini 14 like?

It is partial to the 55 grain Q3131 Jimmy. I shot a ton of Guatamala stuff through it as well, with nary a hicup.

Jeff, I have one AK, an older SA93, and it is about as accurate as most folks say their Mini is. I have two SKS Tula Arsenal rebuilds marked 1950, and 1952 that are a joy to plink with.
I am a sucker for an older Marlin lever gun, regardless of the caliber.

If I sounded out of sorts with any of this, rest assured I was not. I try to limit my being a butt head to the campfire forum.

Sam
Anyone from the airboat capitol state is ok by me! We all hit the butthead label at times... I"m no exception. I didn't take it that way here though, just a circular thread.
Jeff

another vote for the ar-15.

i think it's a better rifle overall, for all the above mentioned reasons.

-tom

I had a Mini-14 in the late '90s; it was functionally accurate and worked flawlessly with the factory magazine. I liked it a lot. But then I bought a half dozen aftermarket magazines, and none of them worked. Not one. So I traded the rifle off, due to magazine unavailability.
I've had two ARs and many, many different magazines; some did not function flawlessly but all function at least most of the time. Most of them function all of the time. I don't think I have ever given over $13 for an AR magazine, and most have been under $10. OTOH, while there are cheap Mini-14 mags available now, I just don't trust them; and factory mags are expensive.

The other thing is, aside from cheap, functional mags and super accuracy, ARs are modular and almost unlimited in what you can do to them. Also, they are a "commodity" item since the patent expired. That's why everybody makes them. That's also why you can get an AR just as cheap as a Mini now, if not cheaper.

When Minis were 1/3 the price of an AR, they were a great alternative. Now, not so much.

The movie you're talking about is In the Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders . It starred "Hutch" (David Soul), not "Starsky" (Paul-Michael Glaser). It was about the infamous Miami Shootout and the crime spree which led to it. That was the incident that led the FBI to drop the .38 Spec. ammo it had issued for many years and convert to the 10mm. I don't think people venerated the Mini as much as they were simply shocked that it could be such an effective combat weapon.

I'll go with the majority and recommend the AR platform. I've owned nearly a dozen examples of both the Mini and the AR and currently we have both in the house. The Mini is okay but like the other poster said, it was a lot okayer when it was $400 and the AR was probably twice that. One thing people here seem to like about the Mini is its handling characteristics. I like the AR way over the Mini in that respect. The new Mini seems to be much improved, from what I've read, but I've not owned one so cannot comment directly there. I still think even if all the good things being said about the improved one are true, the AR has too many areas where it outshines Ruger's effort.

As to Ruger being anti-gun, it is under completely different ownership now and as was said, is an American company.

Not to complicate matters, but if the choices are Mini-14 and AR-15 you might want consider the Saiga in .223. A Russian made AK with a chrome lined bore and a sporter stock for about $300? What is not to like?

They can be modified to accept German Weiger magazines very easily, or there are now American made hi-caps made just for the Saiga for less than $20 a pop. Accuracy is as good as the Mini and the reliability is better than any of them. And for half the cost of a Mini and a third the cost of an AR? That is a heck of a deal.

I have an AR so I don't have one, but I've shot them and they handle very nicely. I'm probaly going to get in on a 7.62x 39 pretty soon and I may get a .223 or .308 for the heck of it. Shoot, I may get one of each.

interesting, I don't forget very well, but are you saying Ruger is no longer owned by the Ruger family? But still US owned? Would be nice to know.... I had to avoid SW for a time period there too...

Maybe a red label can come back on the list.

The mini and the AR are, well like all the others said, two different worlds of guns. But I wouldn't want to stand in front of either. I have both and like them for their intended purpose.

I don't know of anything the mini can do that the AR15 can't do better. Except if laws restrict one but not the other.

I believe they are still owned by Ruger's son, but Bill is dead, and their longtime legal council is a VP now, so it's a different co.

At least they are not owned by a holding company like Remington, Bushmaster, etc. I truly believe Cerberus has bought up a lot of these gun cos. to either turn a profit (which is fine), or put them out of business. Too early to tell which.

You would love a Red Label, I have one and it's great.

Derek rumor has it some people at the top of Cerberus bought up the gun companies partly because they thought it would be fun to own their own set of gat factories.

I wouldn't worry about Cerberus putting them out of business on purpose.

Thanks for the tip...I was working for a Dodge dealer when they came on the scene and bought Chrysler back from Daimler. Then they started buying gun companies. I don't know much about them but as long as they are interested in gun manufacturing they can't be all bad.

I was just kind of wondering if they were some kind of Soros-type organization.

Think about that for an anti-gun campaign -- if someone had enough money to buy out a lot of these firearms manufacturers, many of whom are struggling, they could basically shut them down and cripple the US firearms market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus_Capital_Management

It's hard to find information on Cerberus, but I once saw a list of their board. Drawn mostly from Reagan and Bush administration appointees or employees, to include Dan Quayle.

Interesting stuff, thanks! That actually makes me feel better about them being behind the buyouts.

Oh, as a side note, I put a small down payment on a Colt 6920 LE Carbine tonight, on layaway until I can pick it up around election day.

No Mini for me, I suppose.

Excellent choice in an AR!

The Mini-14 is a nice handling, inaccurate and expensive plinker. The AR is a very accurate combat proven platform.

Maybe the newer Mini-14's are shooting better now but they'd have to go a long way to match an AR. If they are now shooting better I might see a spot where they might be more "politically acceptable" than an black AR but I'd rather just piss the anti's off and carry a better rifle...........................DJ

I think you made a very wise choice Derek.

That's a damn nice rifle.


Travis

Thanks. I read all the stuff online, about how the Colt meets all the military specs, etc., so it didn't seem too bad to spend a couple of extra $$$ on it. I also had a Romanian SAR-1 AK lying around that never shot right which I was able to get $300 in trade for.

I've had Bushmasters, Rock Rivers, but never a Colt.

Hope it's as nice as I think it will be.

I wouldn't totally dismiss the Mini-14, if the price is right.
I bought one years ago for half the price of an AR-15, with 500 rounds of GI ammo.

It is small, fits in a vehicle, light, reliable, my wife and children could shoot it well. If you are not an iron sight shooter, the side mount holds a 4x or slim red dot optical sight.

I was just at the Colt factory a few weeks ago in West Hartford, CT.

Last year I spent two weeks at the Fabrique Nationale (FN) plant in SC, and another week at Reed Knights factory (Knights Armament)
in Fla.


I can recommend without reservation, any M4/M16 series rifle produced by these manufacturers. They all are building top notch firearms.

Your Colt should give you years of trouble free service.

There is one I really like on consignment down at the gun shop...It's one of the older ones with the wood front handguard, looks pretty sharp. It's $499 and I don't have that kind of money esp. after my layaway of the AR, so it'll have to wait. But they do come around cheap used so I may someday get one again.

Thanks, I think it was a good choice. Having owned the rest, I guess I'll own the best, LOL.

All part of my maturing process. Years ago my focus was on quantity, not quality -- five thumbhole AKs were better than one expensive pre-ban.

Now as I get older I'm looking at buying guns that I can hand down to my kids, etc., which are a good investment rather than just a dime a dozen.

I had a 6721 LE until recently. Basicly the same gun as the 6920 without the granade launcher cut in the barrel. It was a very nice and well built but it wasn't a MOA rifle. I never had a FTF the entire time I owned the gun and I would say over all I was very happy with the rifle. I just sold it recently to purchase a White Oak Armament upper. I've been bitten by the accuracy bug when it comes to AR's here lately. A BIG plus with a LE Colt is they hold their value extremely well as long as you leave it stock.

I think you did good.

Terry

That was my impression. Somebody on down from your question said that Ruger's son owns it though.

Ruger is a publicly traded company as is S&W. Hope you didn't buy stock in them a couple of years ago as both have lost quite a bit of their value.

Yes, it's publicly traded now. I think Ruger's kid is on the board or something, but it's not the old iron-fisted "Bill's way or the highway" of the 1990s.

Thanks, I'm not too worried about MOA, as long as it's a good reliable shooter, that shoots better than the Mini-14 I had two years ago, LOL. This is my "worst case scenario" rifle. I've got some .22s and other guns for when I do the accuracy thing...This one is meant as my "Patriot Rifle," although they've totally bastardized the term Patriot of late.