I recently acquired my first semiautomatic rifle, a Sig 556 Commando, as a defense weapon for my vacation cabin. Since then I have done a little research on the 223 as a combat caliber and I am finding some very mixed opinions.

I came across this article, as an example:

Bullets called ill-suited for close combat

The article is about an Army commissioned study on the opinions of 2,600 soldiers who had served in combat, on the effectiveness of the 223. The survey found that one-fifth wanted a larger caliber; of course that means that four-fifths were satisfied with the 223.

When commenting on another Army study that found that all the 223 needs to be more effective is a different bullet a retired Marine Corps Major says:

�The Army buried the study's most important conclusion: that larger-caliber bullets are more potent. �

�It was manipulated,� said Milavic, a Vietnam veteran who manages an online military-affairs forum called MILINET. �Everybody knows there are bullets out there that are better.�

I am wondering what the general consensus is among soldiers who have actually used BOTH the 223 and 308 in combat.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=78193


http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=74601

Those who want a "larger caliber" would probably be satisfied with any round that never misses and always results in an eliminated combatant.

Since you are using your new 223 as a home defense gun, you are not bound by the rules of warfare and thus, you can use expanding bullets.
I believe Blackhills offers a Partition or Bearclaw loaded round that would fit the bill nicely. I would stay away from using handloads for home defense as a criminal attorney would suggest you were experimenting on bad guys and that the guy you shot while protecting yourself or loved ones was the vic.

It seems every 2 months or so we go through this same old topic. Most of the time the people replying are guys who have never fired a shot in anger and are just repeating what someone else wrote or typed on the net.

I was told the .223 was developed to wound enemy combatants not kill them. If you kill a soldier the rest can ignore them in the interim, BUT if you wound them they have to be treated, hauled, doctored,and you get the psychological advantage of the bad guy yelling and screaming in pain, etc..... thus tying up enemy resources. Of course your bullet and more imprtantly bullet placement is key, the explaination given to me made a lot of sense. Same reasoning was given to me on the 9mm. Having seen the 9mm in action I would never want to rely on it for self defense. If you have cause to use deadly force, it could be argued for many reasons that it should be just that, deadly.

Fortunately for this forum we have you. Would you expand on your experience and first hand observations of the effects of this round in combat situations?

Your hands on experience would be a valuable information source for us.

No.

Illuminating....

I'll second Lewis' motion. Nothing trumps a firsthand primary source.

FWIW:

Mackay has postd pics of himself in conutry on other threads.

He appears to be doing the same job Mr. Perkins was doing, but in the sandbox.

I cannot vouch for the authenticity, but he seems knowledgeable.

Here's the quote:



BMT

IIRC, Mackey is (or at least was) in the sandbox, doing some sort of secret stuff involving lots of cool armament. We're no even allowed to see his face!

Beat me to it, BMT.

Woodchuck to secret squirrel

Guys,

Here is the deal. I am home right now.

As you know, I have participated in various threads dealing with the matter of the use of firearms for non sporting/work purposes. I often get frustrated by what I often read and end up saying my piece when it would be prudent to shut up. It is a failing on my part and sometimes I have regretted it.

The reason I get frustrated is all the nonsense that is typed and then parroted as factual information. If I come across as a know-it-all it is not my intent, though rereading some of my own posts I see my failings to more conversationally put out my point.

My background in the military, in law enforcement and as a contractor may have a bit to do with that, as I have been surrounded by guys the entire course of my career that are cut from similar cloth. Quite frankly though, I just have poor social skills and tend to come across wrong or grouchy to a lot of people.

I read my own post a few minutes ago in this thread and realized once again that I probably came across grouchy or short to people who do not know my dry personality.

The funny/ironic part is that when I opened up and started participating in online discussions, I did so to talk about subjects that were not work related. It allowed me to escape my narrow field and talk to "normal" people about other subjects. I have managed to get sucked back into work related subjects like a moth to the flame.

Mr. Perkins and I do not quite do the same type of work. That being said, his work is equally valuable and the opinions and comments he has written indicate to me that he is a person who has a great deal of experience in different subjects. I have never seen any information that he has put out that I would throw the BS flag on. I pay attenion when he posts information.

As for that matter there are a few that post here that I can tell give no nonsense information based on a substantial amount of experience with the AR platform and shooting in general. I lsiten to their straight talk as well.

Back to the contracting subject.There are primarily three different types of "contractors" The vast majority are in the service end of the buisness. Food service, housing, laundry, vehicle maintenance, etc.

The next type is the training end of the buisness. This is where the majority of armed contactors work. Training host country nationals on subjects such as law enforcement or corrections or things of that nature. This is where most retired police officers that work as contractors end up. This is where you see the police advisors and such.

The third type of contractor is operational end of the buisness. This can be as mundane as running fixed site security (gate guards), doing embassy protection work or as " high speed" as you want. Contract operators augment agencies that do personal security details for dignitaries or do a variety of more clandestine work.

The third type of contracting is a much smaller group due to the specialized background requirements.

That being said, just because someone was a Group, Bat, or Team guy does not mean they are the ultimate anything. I have seen some guys with seemingly exceptional backgrounds that if it were not for the military, they would have been in prison long ago. Many could not pass a police officer entrance exam if they were given the answer sheet.

It is the same with some of the police officers I have seen on some of the "international police" contracts. They could not pass a college entrance exam or even a military PT test if their life depended on it.

The flip side is that I have seen some exceptional individuals from various military groups and law enforcement agencies. There seems to always be that 10% on both sides that you think to yourself "how the hell did that guy make it through selection?".

Anyways, I just thought I would throw that out there. Though I do not show my face, that does not make me a ninja or "high speed". I am just a guy who has been trying to provide a better life for his family and do something meaningfull at the same time.

I have always tried to work doing things that I believed in. I know where my talents lay and to be honest I like going up against people that prey on humanity. It has been easy for me to get cynical and grouchy when dealing with state, local and federal governments and the types of people who always seem to end up in charge of such.

If you guys truly want my thoughts on the subject that is fine. For now though, I am going to pour another Crown on the rocks, watch the snow fall and pack my gear for tommorrows bunny hunting safari!

Being home is great.

Mackay, have fun in all you do and don't take any of this personaly, it's just the internet.

Now on the subject, I have read various reports stating everything you can imagine and from what I have determined, if you make a proper hit it will work. Ain't no different shooting deer or coyotes with any other cartridge. A bad hit will be blamed on bullet failure...

But I do like 55gr better than the 62gr stuff, especialy in a carbine and the 77gr OTM even better.

And yet rounds like the .458 SOCOM and 6.8 SPC were developed because people who do fire in anger weren't happy with the limitations of the 5.56. Not to mention the phoenix like resurrection of 7.62 chambered rifles in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Sure you'll find guys in the know that think the 5.56 is adequate and you'll find guys in the know that don't. I think it's silly to blame people back home that haven't fired in anger for the 5.56's bad rep. That rep didn't start here, it started in Vietnam and Somalia and Iraq and Afghanistan. I fully understand guys having confidence in their weapon, because if you didn't, it undermines your ability to fight but it's BS to pretend that only the people that don't fight are the ones slamming the 5.56.

No opinion from me. I've carried an M-16, but I have never fired one in anger. But I do know the rep didn't come from computer jockeys. The long look at the 6.8 sure as hell didn't come from the Government which is quite content to never change. Next we'll be hearing that the 9mm is an optimal round.

Funny that I still hear from my military spec op friends that are trained competitive shooters that I used to compete against, that the M16 platform, especially when fed the 77s, is just fine. After all they all said heck you gotta hit and hit em where it counts, just like they had to do with their M14s. They always said the ones that complain would do worse with the M14 as it takes a higher level of skill to shoot well and we don't train our troops in shooting as well as we should or practice as much as we should.

I can vouch that the M14 is a heck of a rifle that also takes time to master in sustained fire.

As to the resurgence.... I don't buy that one bit. They carried 308 bolt and M14 guns in Vietnam by teams, and same in the sandbox. The 308 always had and always will have a purpose.

Don't trust the gun or round? Wanna let me ding a few at you? Heck stand still and I'll even give you a sporting chance and take you on at 600 yards.....

Vietnam ended 34 years ago. That war started with the M-14 in play. There were next to none in play in Iraq or Afghanistan when they started other than in bolt guns. There's nothing to buy, it's plain fact.

Any round can kill you at 600 yards in a t-shirt. Not to mention they ain't using your match rifles your used to, they're firing 77gr out a 14.5" M4. You want to trade 600 yard shots with me using some cover like would be the case in the real world? Do you have any idea how slow your 77 grainer will be out of that 14" tube at 600 yards?

Again, this kool aid drinking ignores why the 6.8 SPC got developed and got such a long look when the Pentagon wanted nothing to do with changing, just like they don't want to change the 9mm. Does the 5.56 kill? Sure, I've got a safe full of em, it's not that I don't like them. Is it an optimal cartridge for warfare? No. We'd probably be better off today if we hadn't strongarmed the Brits out of their .280 Brit.

The 9x19 was developed to kill. It was adopted by the US as a concession to NATO.

Know a guy with some nasty scars from a 45 and can tell you how the bullet traveled from his stomach to his shoulder and back again. So it's not always a done deal whichever caliber you choose.

Oh and it was golden sabers, don't think I'll buy any of those.

Wow . . . . .

I love these threads . . . .

FWIW:

When my turns comes to fire in anger, please give me advance notice of terrain, opponents, and range.

Under 50 yards with soft targets, I will use the 458 SOCOM.

Between 50 and 110 yards, with "hard targets" (autos, body armor, behind walls) I will use 5.56 M993/M995 (armor piercing).

Over 100 yards, I will use 7.62x51 ball.

There, that settles it. . . . .

What do you mean you can't do that?

I don't know how it will happen, who it will be, or what they will be standing behind?

CRAP!

I guess I will have to compromise, then.

I have to balance firepower (number of rounds carried) with ammo weight and sixe.

I have to balance with knock down power with range and penetration.

I have to balance portability (weapon size) with recoil.

The point is, gentlemen, that the M1 garrand, the M1 carbine, the M14, the M16, and the M4 are ALL compromise weapons.

Each has a theater where is shines.

Each has a theater where its not popular.

Heck, the M1 CARBINE became more popular than the M1 Garrand as soon as the GIs left Europe and got into the Pacific Island Jungles.

The same applies here.

No platform/ammunition will suit every need.

Its just the way it is.

Good Shooting,

BMT

Your comparing platforms when we are talking about cartridge. The popularity of the M1 Carbine in the pacific jungles had nothing to do with it's cartridge and everything to do with it's size, weight and being magazine fed. If the M1 Garand had used the .276 Pedersen as it was intended and the M1 carbine had used the .276 as well, they still would have been favored by the same folks as it had nothing to do with the cartridge.


Is there a single person here, that given a choice of the same M-16 platform and having to choose one round to fight in the streets of Baghdad, the Streets of Mogadishu, the mountains of Afghanistan and the woods of Germany would choose the 5.56 over the 6.8 SPC? All things being equal as far as logistics and bullet type, would anyone really choose the 5.56 as their optimal warfare round? No way in hell, if they are being honest.

I think the thing I would consider is that states won't let you hunt deer with a .223, but you would consider it approiate for home defense. A deer is much easier target than someone shooting back at you. Its not the size of the round, its where you can put them the fastest. I've killed plenty of deer with nine millimeter but wouldn't take it hunting.
Take care,
Tom

No, I am just making the point that a combat tool is issued to a million troops and will be used in a million different applications.

Nothing is perfect. Nothing is one size fits all.

If I were in charge, we would be using 7.62x51.

But no one wants to haul 300 rounds of that up the Hindu Kush. They may not want to haul the 6.8 up there either. This is why I made the M1 Garrand/M1 Carbine analogy.

My Point: NO ONE TOOL fits all applications.

That's all,

BMT

Agreed.

PLACEMENT matters most.

BMT

Another Thread on the issue:

http://www.oregonconcealedcarry.com/index.php?showtopic=3178

Note: It started with an observation about LEO shootings (and car penetration).

Also note the final post that mentions little things like Practice, weapons familiarity, and Mindset being substantially more important than ammo selection.

BMT

Bingo.

Here is my 2 cents:

The .223/5.56 is fine in the hands of a skilled shooter. The problem lies in the projectile. FMJ sucks, that is all there is to it. Any decent softpoint or hollowpoint marketed as "precision or tactical" does much better. That being said, FMJ may not always immediately drop BGs, but it sure makes them sick and they do not feel like playing anymore. The best way to describe it is that it would be similar to getting stabbed repeatedly with an icepick.

Personally, I prefer to go as lightweight as possible. By the time you strap on all your kit, you have a considerable load. Wearing 80+ pounds on your chest not only limits your ability to move quickly, but it is also hard on your lower back before long.

The .223/5.56 in M4s and SAWs and such work fine for me. Better projectiles are needed, that is all. Lighter body armor would be a nice bonus too.

In places like Afghanistan or Iraq the 5.56 may be OK but in heavy woods or jungle, the 7.62x51 redefines what is "cover" and what is "concealment". Placement?? Great if the opening presents itself,otw you shoot for what you can see. The 7.62 holds an edge there. Effective bullets?? Nice if one could get away with it. The military is restricted. Keep in mind that S.P. bullets sacrifice some of their ability to penetrate cover. Given my druthers I'd prefer M63 blacktip. works well and has a mite better effective range than M80. Having had AK rounds going through some trees that would and id stop a 5.56, the re-evaluation sorta came quite easily.

The upside to your statement, is that I know you can handle the M14 with ease. Others well.....

Me, I'm not so sure that I wouldn't still take the AR if I could pick the ammo I carry. After all Ballistic HPs are "legal" and the work much better than any FMJ.

Jeff

The only real fly in the ointment is that eventually,if one survives, ammo availablity would likely devolve to the mil standard. By anyone's standards, YOU are a specialist. For most folks, getting on solid ground with basic rifles in either or both calibers is neccessary. Both rounds do well. They both have their advantages. I still believe that without access to specialist ammunition, the 7.62x51 has a couple more desireable characteristics that one could live with..literally..

No doubt 7.62 will out penetrate hands down. Glass would be one urban consideration that bothers me. I do have a 50 for certain issues though....

Beowulf or BMG?

Usually the people I see worrying about 5.56 hurting people are those who have never used it on people, although sometimes I meet people who shot people with the M4 and wanted a bigger gun.

Without doubt the 155AMAX in the 7.62 does more damage, but I don't want to carry that much weight. So I make a trade.

Guy I know was in SF for 29 years, and its like he says. You can shoot someone three times with an M4 or one time with a 14, in the same amount of time.

The final answer, Right here:

http://mouseguns.com/compare.htm

BMT

Great news...
after 25 months since I flew out of the Balkans with a scarf wrapped around my broken leg, the Doc's have released me for work.
Mackay, Ryan, you have any employment leads for me?

anyone else is welcome to jump in.

Dude - that was flippin' hilarious!

Don't you three have some super secret web site to coordinate you wet work????

beowulf or bmg. Don't know if this is the answer you were looking for, but the correct answer is both.

Good news for You!

I am workin' right now.

BMT

BOTH!

Duuude . . . . .

You're my hero . . . .

BMT

Its a very accurate portrayal . . .

"There you have it. In the end, it is clear to any open minded inquirer that the Mosin Nagant is the most superior weapon of all time, but the AR and the AK come out as a draw when compared side by side. "

BMT

the US has been behind the world when it came to the urban combat rifle. The nazis and the reds figured it out after stalingrad. hence the MP43 and the AK47. mild 7-8mm short bbl, durable full auto. The US still kept a full powered centerfire till the AR-15 and then missed the boat by making a 20" barreled varmint rifle.
you want to know why the AK is still used in urban warefare? becasue thats what it was designed to do. the bombed out shelled cities dont change. streets are still streets and building are still buildings.
having a 3000 MV 62 gr. bullet in a MOUT situation is about as usefull as having a 2200 MV 150 gr 30 cal in a sniper situation.
The US needs to look at whats needed for city fighting and equip the fighters with that. when in a desert enviro eqip for that. this whole ONENESS BS doesnt work. It didnt for McNamara and it doesnt now. diferent situations require different equipment.
I'll take a M16A2 and day if im fighting in the woods of Bosnia but if your going to drop me a the mud citys of north africa i want a 450 RPM 7-8mm round at 2200-2300 MV.
wait till we get into Pakistans mountains, youll see the 5.56 shine again because shots are going to be from hillside to hill side.

While the 5.56 may not be optimal, it sure has accounted for a boat load of dead bodies.
I could have easily bought a different caliber upper yesterday, in 6.8 or some other flavor.
Since I have, er, a few boxes of 5.56 around, and would have to start from scratch with any other caliber, I am staying with what I know, and what I have.

Lewis,

I did not see this till this morning when re reading the posts.

BTW, who is this "hitnrun" guy?

Anyways,

Are you looking for police missions, ep, psd, static? I literally know nothing about the Dyn police advisor gigs. I know a number of guys that are working them but I have no firsthand experience.

I am not sure of what help I can be but let me know what you want.

guy is some child on Christmas vacation. happens to all the boards this time of year.

Police missions I have covered DYNCORP,CPI,EULEX I have paper in to all.
Looking for static security,not really convoy security.

Though you or Ryan might have a POC with some of the small players or NGO's
Big players like BW,CACI,G4,SOC-SMG,KBR I know about.
With TCN's taking over the market it is getting harder to find openings unless you know someone.

Not in that business and the people I know who were got out already. Sorry.

An expert is some one who is 25 miles from home.This is why everyone on internet is an expert. That being said, both platforms are effective in the conditions they were designed for.. both platforms can also be effective in the alternate conditions in the hands of one who understands the capabiltites and limitations of each.

Here's a question to the guys on here who have been there and done that. Say you have an ar-15 with 16" tube, what would be a good round for home defense and SHTF scenarios?

50-55 grain Vmax factory ammo.

planemech, tried to find any of that lately? it really works great on varments.

V-max doesn't have sufficient penetration through various common barriers to provide consistent performance according to FBI tests. Save it for prairie dogs.

Yes, that's the point pabucktail. It won't shoot through cars, solid oak doors etc. We aren't talking about armored combat troops in clay brick buildings. The question was for home self defense and that means terminal ballistics. The Vmax or TAP ammo which is loaded with V max ammo is so the bullets do NOT over penetrate. The issue with FMJ 5.56 is not penetration but fragmentation, as in it doesn't always do so at range. The .223 ammo that has the best on unarmored person terminal wounds happens to be varmint ammo. It's also the least likely to go into places you don't want it. Another reason a shotgun is such a good home defense weapon. 5.56/.223 will penetrate a whole bunch of stuff like walls, window glass, home doors, car doors and such. So much so it'd amaze the armchair commandos.

Jimmyp have you tired to find any .223-5.56 around? It's all in demand but the varmint Vmax is most likely to be found over mil surp or tactical ammo.

Well i just bought 500rds or American Eagle XM193 and a box of Federal's 40gr ballistic tip varmint load, which i was gonna sight in for coyote's but may save some for home defense. The case of 500 XM193's went for 219 dollars, i thought that was not too bad

Sorry, but .223 VMax bullets do not meet FBI ballistics requirements. The bullet fragments easily, yes, but the fragmentation occurs too rapidly to allow adequate penetration. Furthermore, if the person you're defending your home against is wearing durable clothing such as a leather or canvas jacket, the bullet will begin fragmenting before it even reaches the skin. This will drastically reduce the terminal effect of the bullet.

The rapid fragmentation of VMax and other varmint bullets is intended to be destructive on animals much smaller than a human being. If you are planning to shoot human beings with your .223 carbine, it's best to use ammunition designed for use on human beings. If you're really all that set on bullets that fragment, get some Hornady TAP ammo, which DOES meet FBI criteria.



You apparently aren't all that familiar with the terminal ballistics literature yourself. Dr. Gary Roberts published a landmark paper in Police Marksman almost a decade and a half ago that irrefutably demonstrated that .223 64 gr Power Point bullets were "safer" than 00 buckshot and JHP handgun bullets when fired inside a house of typical construction. Both buckshot and handgun bullets will penetrate much deeper into a gelatin block on the other side of a sheetrock/2x4 wall than the .223 JSP round will. When I read that paper, I was skeptical enough to test it myself and confirmed Roberts' findings. Furthermore, I tested 12-gauge birdshot and found it to be as destructive as buckshot at home defense distances. Numerous other ballisticians have reached the same conclusions, which is why we have excellent "entry" .223 rounds such as the Hornady 55 gr TAP.

Ummm, isn't TAP ammo loaded with V-max bullets???

I just love all the crazy over the 5.56 and .223. Boys and girls this is a rifle and we are talking 3200 FPS velocities. Home D is up close and personal. A canvas jacket is proof against a 55 grain .223 bullet? Let's get real here for a moment. This isn't combat nor are we shooting through walls or cars to get at a bad guy. People can talk all they want I don't think anyone would want to be on the receiving end of the 55 grain vmax, canvas coat or not. Having seen what one of those does to coyotes I'd not want that grenade going off in me.

Some TAP ammo has TAP specific bullets, the heavies for example- the 75 grain stuff. There are a couple different TAP specific bullets. The 55 grain is as far as can be determined the Vmax bullet and it only penetrates some 8" in gelatin tests with major fragmentation from the data I was able to find in a web search. Ironically what one wants in non Geneva Convention home defense situations.

Maybe someone else knows for sure if the 55 grain TAP bullet is a V-max or not. I hardly think we need TSX's, partitions or armor piercing ammo for home defense ammo. Call me crazy but I have found that the 5.56 will kill things like people and deer, coyotes etc. I know that's a radical position.

The 60 gr TAP or V-max or Ninja bullet is what passed the FBI tests and it retained 28 grs, sounds like a plastic tipped varmint bullet to me.

energizer bunny post...anyone ever volunteer to be shot with a 223 to prove how ineffective they are yet? Even at say 1000 yards?

Hi Jeff!

Nice to see you here again . . . .

You coming back soon?

(Sorry, it like homecoming, this thread WILL NEVER DIE!).

BMT

12 guage.



22lr.

BMT

Planemech... I'm not into a peeing match here, really.

I don't know what bullet Hornady uses in its TAP ammo, and neither does anyone other than Hornady. I don't know if it's the same VMax bullet I load in my varmint rounds.

What I DO know is that the 55 gr and 75 gr TAP ammo met FBI (and other) protocols. I don't think you're crazy to claim that the 5.56 will kill things like people and deer-sized quadrupeds. Been there, done that.

My point was that a home defender thinking he'll be "safe" shooting at a bad guy in his/her house with a shotgun or a pistol and expecting people to be safe on the other side of his/her "bad" shots is a fallacy.

You have to hit what you need to hit. Period. What you hit it with is, for the most part, irrelevant.

Maybe i should have worded my question differently, whats the most devestating, anti-personel round for the .233? I have a 12 guage, two pistols, two 22lrs, along with several other rifles. I have recently bought an AR-15 not thinking the world is coming to an end but because i have always wanted one. If im gonna have one in the house i want ammo that will be effective in it, im not too big on FMJ prjectiles.I not know this answer so i didnt mean to cause any in-fighting...

Just go pick up any hunting type mid weight soft point, hollow point or whatever non FMJ ammo and call it good.

I would concentrate a lot more money, effort and thought into taking care of loved ones who may likely get injured. Learn some casualty care and how to stabilize a trauma victim.

Bad things happen to good people, learn to deal with it.

It is very easy to dump dudes, it is a lot harder keeping people alive.

Excellent answer. I agree completely.

My personal choice for antipersonnel loads is any JSP bullet in the 60-65 gr weight range. They'll work in any rifle regardless of twist rate and are devastating on the receiving end.

I don't agree with any HP bullet though... I'd be happy with a SP, but still don't feel that an AR is a house gun for me.

I'll stick with birdshot in the 12ga backed up with buckshot if i need it, knowing full well that birdshot is about done once it has to go through one wall, but that buckshot can keep going, hence the reason for birdshot up close the first few rounds.

Did anyone post results of say 55 sps vrs a standard interior wall, how much further do they go after one wall?

And yes, totally agree you have to hit what you are aiming at and that helps, yet I carry a spare tire and fire extinguishers just in case.... same here, I intend to hit, but feel like I should put more thinking into the results in case I miss.

Jeff

Just playing around with different bullets and with shooting into different media, but I like the Winchester 64 grain SP.
It is quite accurate out of my AR15 and AR180B. It works fine in my Ruger Mini as well.
My reason for trying this was to see if it would work as a deer cartridge now that its legal on Florida. Looks like it will be fine for hunting, and for HD.

I like the Winchester 64 gr JSP as well. I think it will do fine on those little Florida deer, although Black Hills makes a fine 64 gr Nosler Partition load that I think would be even better (and has a great record at going through windshields and car doors with plenty of steam on the other side).

I've done testing on birdshot, buckshot, and 5.56mm 55 gr ball through standard construction sheetrock walls (5/8"), with a box of wetpack two feet behind it. Muzzles were set up 4 yards from the mockup wall.

The 55 gr ball ammo will penetrate 14 inches of soaked newsprint and blow out the other side. 64 gr JSP stays in the soaked newsprint. Buckshot blows a crater about 10" deep, and #7 birdshot blows a hole about 6" deep. I realize this is not as scientific/reproducible as shooting into a calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin block, but it gives some grounds for comparison between one projectile/load and another.

As far as I'm concerned, my results tell me that birdshot is NOT a "safer" alternative. The pellets have barely started to open up into a pattern at "home defense" ranges (7 yards or less) and strike as a solid mass for all intents and purposes. I know from treating GSW victims shot with birdshot inside 5 yards or so that the damage is comparable to that of buckshot. Past that distance buck is more lethal, especially Federal's Flite-Control buckshot.

Looks to me that a 6 inch hole penetrates less than a 64 that stays inside a newspack thats at least 14 inches thick? Am i right.

I don't use birdshot for the spread, anyone that thinks any pellet load spreads at house distances is crazy in my books. But what I ues it for is that after it hits human targer or wall, my feeble testing says it dissipates and travels not as far as other rounds/ammo. Point being it'll kill you just as dead as anything else, but if it hits a wall it wont' travel as much as others. Thats how I'm interpretting your results.

BTW typical wall is not 5/8 rock, thats fire rock, typical HOME walls are 1/2 rock, 2x4, no insulation, and 1/2 rock again. 5/8 is generally found in commercial buildings as a fire stop. Just FWIW.

Jeff... I'll have to find the pix and post them here. There's a big difference between the 6" deep and 6" wide crater the birdshot makes and the 14" pinhole the .223 round makes. My point is that neither one is "safe" for home defense use, nor should they be. As the Second Rule of Gun Safety says, "Know your target, and what's beyond it." Keep in mind that if an armed intruder is in your home, he's not going to be concerned about collateral damage, and he for damned sure won't be using "safe" ammunition.

My home defense shotgun is loaded with 00 buck, with slugs in the sidesaddle. I've treated a lot of GSW survivors with birdshot in 'em who did fine. I've never seen a GSW survivor with buckshot in him in 20-odd years of ER medicine. I know they're out there, but it's pretty rare.

And yes, I'm aware that 1/2" sheetrock is used in homes. I deliberately used heavier-than-code 5/8" to counter arguments from skeptics. No big deal.

FWIW, if you have the good fortune to live in an older home with plaster-and-lath walls, you probably don't need to worry about birdshot (or even most pistol rounds) going through them. Buckshot, slugs, and most rifle rounds will go thru, however.

was thinking the 6x6 hole would eat up energy more so than pinhole of the 223....

I'm not all that concerned about killing someone though I have no qualms about it either, I simply don't want to add my own damage to innocents.. I know the intruder doesn't care, doesn't mean I'm not concerned with overpenetration, and with our CHL laws we are more responsible.... Now you are saying birdshot won't kill as easy, which I find hard to believe at 10 feet inside your bedroom, but maybe so. For another view at this, of the survivors, how many do you think were shot at close range, 10 feet or so, and how many were not incapcitated instantly? VS dead with buckshot....

BTW the 5/8 rock also has built in moisture which means more dense, heavier... but I understand the use.

Any difference between say #4 buck and 00 buck in home penetrations? And what I currently have is LEO low recoil 00 buck a stash of it just because but the side saddle has 3 inch 00 buck..... a differnece in penetration to speka of or less pellets and less recoil?

And nope, not an old house. If I wasnt' worried much about penetration issues I'd likely have a handy M14 full of nice bullets and just pummel the guy or gal that made a mistake.

Jeff

The 5.56 will kill , but the 7.62 will leave a hole in the soul!

Grey,
I haven't read the whole thread so I may be repeating someone, but my opinion is that if you really want a gun for self defense at your cabin, a short-barrelled pump shotgun is the way to go.

Too much hardware, not enough software.

This was a silly debate the first time I heard it in 1966. The 5.56 kills just fine, and you can hump a lot more ammo than with the 7.62's,6.8's or whatever.

Jeff, I didn't see much difference between 00 buck and No. 1 buck, but No. 4 buck looked a lot more like #2 birdshot, IIRC. Which wasn't pretty, either. I don't feel a lot of difference in recoil between any of the above, to be honest. My home shotgun is an 11-87 M&P model. I feed it Federal FliteControl 00 buck and Federal 1-oz Foster slugs. Both are 2-3/4 inch shells. I have put 5 rounds of buck on a silhouette target at 5 yards in under 1.2 seconds with this gun, and 5 slugs in a 5-inch circle at 100 yards (slow fire), not braggin' on me, just the quality and versatility of the platform.

To be honest, what I've done is stick with 00 buck and pre-determine lanes of fire in my home that I know are "safe" (in terms of potential collateral damage). I've also added some "decorative" features to the house in a couple of places to make overpenetration less of an issue. My sheetrock/wetpack testing convinced me years ago that there's no such thing as a "safe" load when you're trying to incapacitate a bad guy but not create any collateral damage.

The only "safe" thing is to put the bad guy down for his dirt nap pronto. Your first shot is always your best shot. Make it count, and a second (or third) shot will not be required, and all ballistic materials will be retained within the new autopsy material. (BTW, this is the training doctrine of one of the major metro PD's I have trained and continue to work with, and their OIS data shows that it works.)

YMMV.

Stay safe.

Heck to be truthful, I'm overly protective, I guess its fear of lawsuits etc... and I'm in the country.... we dno't have kids, its not really an issue at all to me but I still feel I should be thinking. Plus I generally keep birdshot there as the shotgun mostly kills cottonmouths.... but there is buck in the tube.. Maybe I should rethink it all and go buckshot only.

Any thoughts on the short buckshot shells? Someone gonna call me Jeff O for asking all the questions probably... or just forget it and run the same 00 I buy for our local PD at 2.75 inches low recoil?

All I know is that i did not sign the Geneva convention, and i am not going to be using FMJ ammo.

It is similar to the 9mm in that when using a proper expanding bullet, the round becomes a much more solid performer. Are their probably better choices? Sure, but there are compromises. 360 rounds of .223 into a fight or 200 rnds of .308. I guess it depends on how far from the truck you plan on running out of ammo.

I don't see what signing the Geneva Convention has to do with any of this discussion.

It means I am not restricted to using FMJ bullets, which makes a big difference in the performance of this round!

As far as all the combat experienced folks, with all due respect, are using FMJ military ammo or the occasional hollow point, which to my knowledge is in 7.62 not in the .5.56/.223

I don't have any combat experience and yes, all my knowledge is from reading on the internet, but c'mon, shooting badguys is not rocket science. All the dude asked was what would be an effective way to use his AR for home defense. Sure the 12ga is preferred, but if you grab the AR or that is what is handy, it would nice to have the most effective round.

My answer for the ubiquitous "home defense" and SHTF questions is move to better neighborhood or stock up on toilet paper, 'cause toilet paper will be the currency of the new world.

You are not restricted to using FMJ, and I would certainly advise using some form of expanding bullets for home defence.

However, the reason I was asking about the significance of the Geneva convention in this thread is becase the Geneva convention does not prohibit the use of expanding bullets by the military. This prohibition is stated in the two The Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907, if memory serves. Further this only applies to the armed forces of two signatories at war with each other. Interestingly enough, I believe we have not been at war with another signatory since 1945.

The Internet is a great place to check things out, not to learn everything. You need to have the basics and you can expand on that knowledge and learn more with judicious search-engine-fu. Look up The Hague (it's in the Netherlands by the way,) Conventions on land warfare and start winning free drinks at the bar or free ammo at gun shops.

My mistake then, I do not adhere to the Geneva convention, or anything that came out of the Netherlands (except Heineken). Sincerely, thanks for the correction.

I am curious them, why are we using FMJ in the 9mm and the .5.56 rounds in the sandbox? It it just cost and logistics of using different ammo in that theater, because I am sure none of our enemies in that theater are signatories of either of the conventions of the Hague or the Geneva convention for that matter.

It's very simple. If our military started using non-FMJ ammunition in combat operations now, what do you think the press around the world would say? Do you think they would present a fair assessment of the decision or would they just go for the "war criminal" aspect? You did not know the details and you are a shooter. You're a smart man, you do the math.

Absolutely correct.


A side note; The 6.8 and 7.62 match are loaded with Sierra Matchking bullets not FMJ armor piercing.

I am interested in learning more about trauma care but don't have a clue where to go to learn!

Non military may do best by finding a good first aid manual to study before it's needed, maybe a naturapathic book if your into that. Gathering the medical supplies isn't that easy but it's important. Use your imagination and any personal contacts you may have. You don't need to have a pharmacy and legally you better not. Just maybe a couple stitch kits, bandages and such. More advanced people would want to get ahold of a lot more, I really don't feel comfortable giving details. I don't know the legalities of having such equipment in the US or your state so don't get yourself in trouble.