So Les Baer didn't like paying Alexander a royalty on the 6.5 grendel so he renames it the .264 LBC and get's Hornady to make brass for him? Is there zero change to the cartridge?

How is that different than the Winchester - Jamison issue?

Hadn't heard about that one, but for someone who charges as much as Baer does for stuff, to be upset about a patent... WOW is all I can say. I'll at least bet that Baer won't sell ya a chambered barrel in 264 lbc so you could make your own either.

Basically the cartridge any way you look at it is a 6.5 ppc Minor variations that don't accomplish enough to worry about IMHO.

Jeff

It looks like Model 1 Sales is also offering a 6.5 Grendel copy. From everything I've seen, it looks like the creator of the Grendel is just too greedy when it comes to licensing his product, so the rifle builders have taken it upon themselves to find a way around calling it a Grendel.

Another way to look at it...

AA kept tight control on this new round from chambers, twists to ammo, supposedly eagerly sharing info with customers. This has led to a standard that is a proven cartridge/rifle.

Now look at the 6.8SPC, many different twists, cartridges loaded to different pressures, small primers/large primers, 2 maybe 3 different chambers. It's almost all sorted out now but it was a rocky start without a standard.

Greedy or smart? Original or a copy?

When it gets out to folks that just want to buy a gun and ammo and shoot, its actually smart.

For those of us that do our own thinking, its greedy, but I"ve said before, just get a 6.5 ppc reamer and you'll have a grendel without the name. They are sufficiently close enough and do just fine.

I just wish someone would mainstream the 6.8 spc necked down to 6mm.

There are a few out there, not mainstream of course, but it would really take a big maker to do that.

As to reloading, thats so simple, buy SSA 6.8 brass and I run it into my 6mm WOA size die and move right along. Mike at Dtech supposedly has an even better improved version that I may well see if he'd hit mine with that reamer....

Well, there was a standard. Remington submitted it to SAAMI. Problem was, Remington screwed it up so it was up to the community to fix it. Kind of like how the PC crushed IBM when IBM got greedy and tried to prevent clones in the early days. Just like the PC, the AR industry overwhelmingly chose the open 6.8spc over the tightly controlled Grendel.

Rost, who is making the 6mm WOA dies? Are there any problems with the longer 6mm bullets? Say 95 grainers fitting?

Redding makes em.

I shoot only 85 tsx, long for its weight since its all copper...

264 lbc is supposed to be really close to being identical to the grendel, i think it will be a big hit as AA has all rights to the grendel i would guess that is going to hurt AA when the new cal comes public Ron

Here is my .02 worth.
LB could have taken the Grendel as is, paid Bill A some $$ then gone ahead and built his top quality rifles. This would have been pretty simple and in my mind less costly. So, why did he redesign the Grendel? Just to slap his name on a cartridge? I think NOT. I think LB spent a lot of time and money testing the true Grendel chamber and came to the conclusion that the AA Compound throat is a poor and dangerous design. Lots of reports out there of Grendel owners getting bullets stuck in the Grendel compound throat and having the bullets yanked out when an unfired round is extracted. Bullets stuck into the lands and throat of a chamber is sure to cause unwanted high pressure. Many reports of blown primers and loose primer pockets as well, although the Grendel lovers claim this is due to soft brass. The Grendel is well know for being "Picky" were handloading is concerned. I think LB wanted a 6.5 AR-15 with a chamber that will actually work without the "picky" "High Pressure" problems associated with the Grendel Compound throat. Very similar to the 6.8 throat and pressure issue.

So, LB redesigned the chamber(Throat) on the problematic Grendel, it only stands to reason he would change the name. Can't really call it a Grendel when in fact iot is not.

LW has been chambering barrels in 6.5 Grendel for years without the Grendel name. They are called a 6.5 CSS. BTW, here are a few pictures of a true Grendel Chamber followed by a CSS chamber. Notice the lack of free bore in the Grendel. I can see why LB would not want his name on something like that.

I dang sure wouldn't call changing the throat a different cartridge, know how many 223 throats are out there... reamers by a different name yeah..

As to the freebore, thats probably a much safer issue for folks that are not smart when it comes to reloading. I"m betting AA was thinking only factory ammo basically.

Personally if freebore is done correctly, IE tight, it really doesn't hurt accuracy any, but it does set up a longer bullet jump. Which actually can help things some... IE single loading you can utilize all the case capacity. Exactly how I had my reamer designed for 90 jlks in the 223 with a tight freebore. Actually its what I talked to John about and he set the specs and had it done that way.

But to change a throat and call it by a new name.. I'm still amazed. And for what high prices LB charges to start with, I'd have thought they'd not have worried about patent issues and paid AA....

What you say maybe true but I know 5 guys who have jumped on the Grendel wagon and have gotten excellent accuracy, nothing too picky, and nary a problem in the lot.

3 of these guys also use the 6WOA and seem to love the Grendel a bit more.

Me, I'm sticking with the 223 for now but it does make an intersting topic.

I don't know of anyone thats had any issues with a grendel. While I don't own one yet, I have shot em... and they ain't shabby. I do have issues with his choice of barrel makers but thats just me...

6woa works fine for what it is, but its not a 6.5 grendel either.

Just like the 223 isn't a 6 woa....

Just to be clear, my response was to steve4102.

TWR, I was aware, or at least assuming, thought about noting my statements as only comments in general...

There are quite a few Grendel owners over at the Grendel site that are having bullets stuck in the lands. Bill A is very specific in his Load Data about OAL for each bullet tested. It's these rounds loaded to Bill A's specs that are getting stuck in his chamber. I find that odd, he designed it, built it, developed the load data for it and they don't work, or should I say work safely.

I could be wrong, but according to the guys over at the AR-15 site, Bill A does not have a patent on the Grendel, he only has a trademark on the name Grendel.

Call it what you want, but anything that gets away from the Micky-Mouse compound throat is a good thing.

Patent/copyright...whatever it was but you are right there.

As to the throating issues, one has to jam the bullets down so deep into the case at times, to clear mag length, I know why he was after that... and as the bullet makers, make bullets, they change the ogive at times... I suspect that might be a case here possibly. I know I've had issues with both Berger and Hornady changing things over the years that suprised me, and hence I never load without a method to read the ogive anymore on new lots of bullets.

As to the freebore issue, I suspect that had liability been a major issue freebore would have been developed for saftey, yet Bill may be thinking like I do, I'd like the best accuracy and throat life and if someone that is going to load or shoot a Grendel doesn't know how to test or deal with throat issues.... but he really should not have. He should have designed it for dummies. Too many of them abound.

I know the loads I shot in the grendel worked fine, you could pull them and there where no issues and shot excellent at 600.

Can you explain what a compound throat means....for the 'less educated'?



What is your method for reading the ogive?


So you're saying a shorter leade can increase accuracy because of less bullet jump and due to less jump, you have less throat erosion??

For 'dummy loaders' and a tight throat/short leade, are they basically just setting their OAL too long to where the bullet engages the lands too quickly and they run the risk of pressures rising?

I use a comparator on a dial caliper. Ain't perfect but its a shot. I have a nylon insert cut from years ago by a guy that isn't with us anymore that gives me a good idea if anything changed.

Shorter leads just lessen the chance you have to shoot with jump to the lands. IF you have any jump you have a chance at less accuracy, it can wobble some before engaging rifling and have a chance at engaging crooked so to speak.

I generally have tight throats since I have freebore in chambers due to some rapid fire issues in my ARs, but if its snug, it can't wobble as easy. I generally have my long range stuff to where I'm either 10th off the rifling or 10th or more engaged, almost soft seated. I deal with that.

What gets folks in trouble with short leades is that ammo is loaded to pressure assuming it'll get a running start at the rifling... and if it does not, if it gets jammed, it can over pressure.

I have a 75 amax deal... I load long single shot rounds and used to load some to mag length. you do NOT even come close to using the same load.

A tight throat will only get you in a bind if you have a fat bullet so to speak.... other than that a tight throat is a good deal, but you didn't want it for "combat" use either.

So the last answer to your last question is yes, you have that right. And before that yes, a short lead can help accuracy.

Jeff, thanks for the reply.

Speaking of single-loading, I was reading The AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide by Walk Kuleck and he had a quick note on the subject basically saying dont do it. He said with single-loading you can just about expect a slam-fire if you do it enough. Why would that be?

Also, do you run a titanium firing pin to reduce the weight and momentum the free-floating pin can gain to mitigate a slam-fire?

What you can do with Walk Kulecks book, is to use it as a fire starter. I wouldn't even use his info to wipe my.....

Lots of good smiths out there that have forgotten more than they know... Walt and bunch over there simply never knew..

As to slam fires... lets see, tween the wife and I, running 8-15K or so rounds a year for many years in the AR, and me loading up to or over 20K including juniors stuff... and being that we've been on state teams for years and private teams for years and so on... I can't quite recall the number of slam fires I've seen... I know Carolyn had one in standing from single loading and Federal primers of which we quit using... Circa 94 or so... thats all I can recall.

I do NOT use titanium because you will pierce more primers than you will have slam fires, and while you can run on a pierced standard pin, a TI one gets one pierce and its useless, what...??60 buck push pin now?

Nope, I've never had a slam fire ever.

Walk Kuleck... if you read some of their older stuff they also said that handloads are dangerous and NOT to ever reload or use reloads...

This is a buddys book that he let me borrow. LOTS of VERY basic information in that book and last night when I was reading it 10-12 pages of information seemed to be copied illustrations from some sort of manual...

I liked Zedikers book much more (in spite of his writing style). You say "Walt and bunch over there". Where is "there"? I'm assuming he has a shop or something?

Good to know on the TI pin...thanks for saving me some cash (to buy some white lowers with )

I can't think of Walts bunch.... something ordnance maybe... someone will help me I hope...

Glenn has a lot of info. can't stand his writing though. I liked John Feamsters writing, even if I am briefly mentioned in his book anyway....

BTW keep the muzzle in a safe direction and you won't have to worry when that once in a lifetime slamfire might happen.