Can ya'll explain the pro's & con's of these two action types?

piston runs cleaner and cooler

impingement works fine for 99% of us and is cheaper. I own/have owned 223, 260, 308, and 300 SAUM ARs. All were impingement, never ever malfuctioned or were cleaned very often. None were full auto, burst mode, or ripped off 20-100 rounds as fast as I could pull the trigger.

The AK 47 uses a gas tube system. What is the most reliable military semi-auto battle rifle ?

Gas tube is "tactical cool" so it must be better, but the tubes need to be cleaned too.

With the exception of the cabon fiber 223s, (impingement) they are all too heavy, good for killing people and questionable (compared to alternatives) as a hunting rifle.

4.5 pound 223 with lexan magazine, w/o scope, light & laser. Shoots minute of raghead out to 300. That's all it is for.

When did you have to clean a gas tube? I"m totally flabbergasted at that? I"ve run so many barrels through AR uppers and have only changed one tube due to wear on the end where it seals into the carrier group. At least read my comment on changing barrels to say that I"ve had at least up to 6-7 barrels on some of my uppers so far.... and thats a life span of anywhere from 3500 or so to over 12K rounds on one barrel.

Where did you read that gas tubes are tactical cool and WTF is tactical cool anyway really? Gas tubes are how it was designed and have worked for so long without flaws are the reason they are around vs piston.

A buddy just bought a piston gun. Just like I thought, so far its reliable, even though its a ruger, but its accuracy so far just ain't what a GOOD AR is capable of.

Bottom line for me, I trust my life to non piston guns.

Isn't Interthem Oldman's newest reincarnation? This place is going to the dogs again. Maybe Rick will ban him again soon.

I have been shooting DI guns since 1978 not once in over 30 years has one failed to fire or perform as expected. I have fired one for well over 700 rounds without it being cleaned.

Oh my gawd, I have never ever cleaned the gas tube on my ARs! Does that mean I'm going to have issues with them?

One needs to also remember that piston designs are all different and proprietary, and so are the bolt carriers for these piston guns. Going piston means you kiss good bye to two things: raw accuracy and parts interchangability. If these two things are not a concern for you, then a piston may well suit your needs.

Oh and there is the problem of carrier tilt in piston ARs. So maybe three things.

Because they have inherent flaws or you just have not owned any? I am a novice trying to determine if I even want to own a black gun. I have been looking at the IWRC R.E.P.R.. It's a 308 piston gun.

I have fired several AR's of the impingement design and they were incredibly accurate at 100 yards, open sighted, even with me behind them.

Consider the fact that while �technically� on paper, the gas piston designs �should� be better, they are NOT proven in military service. Any student of military arms can tell you that most every military rifle �should� have worked right off the bat, but most every major military rifle ever made has had issues once they were pressed into military service; issues no one foresaw before military service. And those issues are almost always NOT issues of design, but of materials and manufacture. There have been oodles of changes in materials and manufacturing techniques to the M16 series rifles, but almost no overall design changes (functionally). The M14 had some significant heat treating and metallurgical issues. Same as the FAL. The M1 Garand had minor design related issues that became serious functioning issues. The G3 had several teething problems. Yet all of these rifles went on to have extremely distinguished service careers.

So while people may be oh-so proud of their gas piston AR�s, consider two things:

The AR was NOT designed for a piston system. Any piston system AR is a work-around. Consider just one little thing, the gas piston rod pushes against an area that was never intended to drive the bolt. The AR bolt was DESIGNED to be propelled from within, not a-top of.
No gas piston AR has significant in the field time. The H&K 416 has had some limited time in the field with special ops. But that�s limited time, and special ops. To me it�s not proven until it�s years in the field, in the hands of poorly trained grunts.

I don't have piston guns because its a fix to a non existant problem. I don't buy into crap like that.

As to accuracy, it may well be that my demands of an AR accuracy wise could well be more than the average folks, but I have yet to see anyone that has a piston AR get .5 or less MOA out of it at distance. 100 yards is not distance.

I can generallly shoot groups in the 1/2- 5/8 inch range with a non piston AR off bags and irons at 100 yards. Or with a sling from prone.

If you want piston, then go for it. But there is no need. And as noted, the AR was never designed as a piston platform so only time will tell if it works out in the platform.

I'd make the decision if you even want an AR first, then decide which one and what parts based on the use. If you aren't sure you want one yet, then you are way ahead of yourself starting to differentiate IMHO.

And there are many reasons to have and not to have.... and just because is good enough for me.

Just go buy a cheap $1000 Colt 6920 in 5.56, 1000 rounds of XM193, 5 Pmags, and go shoot it all, then clean your rifle. This will teach you something and at the same time you will have a worthwhile gun in your possession that you can sell for near what you paid for it if you dont want it. Or you can just go visit different websites until you get the answer you want to hear based on an internet experts advice who hasn't pulled a trigger on any of his shiny new black rifles in 5 years. Those pictures of those shiny black rifles with every optic and accessory on them known to man just make me sad about my poor outfits.

the pros of direct impingment systems, is that they work, and work well.

The cons of pistons systems is that they are expensive, and really add nothing to the accuracy or reliability of the DI system.

If I was going 308 AR, the only one I would look at is the LMT 308. Yes, I'm passing on dpms, rr, Armalite and even KAC.

As for a piston AR, no way. I'm one of those who's ran a couple of AR's to a thousand rounds without cleaning just to see. I did clean my tactical cool gas tube with every pull of the trigger... DI for me.

But my 308 is and will probably always be a bolt gun. Though I did try an AR-10 for a spell.

Sam, damn well put.

TWR.. man I really hope to run into you and DJ and a few others some day if time allows... interesting how alike minds think at times... I'm there with you on the bolt/308 mostly....

IMO piston driven AR's are an answer looking for a problem.

I guess Brownells is selling that special kit to clean piston ARs (including the tube) just because all their customers are fools.

Hey mall ninja! good google fu pics! Bold statement...where is your proof? Oh I see just your inane BS again....



Only one fool here.....YOU!

Two of the outstanding qualities of AR's are Accuracy and Parts interchangability. Piston AR's reduce both while increasing cost.

I've had both and now in AR-15's I only have DI's. For a first AR-15 I think the recommendation for a Colt 6920 or 6940 is solid advice. Later on for target models etc. you'll start building your own............dj

I went through this 3 years ago when I decided to upgrade my using AR-15s from run of the mill factory Bushmasters.

The Bushmasters were OK but I wanted to upgrade the ergonomics, reliability and accuracy.

I called a friend that earns his living teaching Tier 1 SMUs how to shoot. The unit that developed and first carried the HK 416 piston gun is one of his major clients.

He told me to skip the piston guns and stay with the standard Stoner gas system.

In the world of fighting ARs it is pretty hard to find a reputable instructor with SMU experience on the piston AR that would choose one for his own use over a good DI gun.

If you are also intending to use your AR for hunting then the choice seems even clearer as the piston adds weight and decreases accuracy.

Learn to properly lube the DI AR and get one made with quality components and it will be as reliable as the ammo and mags you feed it. A piston won�t fix bad mags or ammo.

When I was involved in SMU training as volunteers a number of years ago, the HK was new also...

And none of us were overly impressed at all.

As I"ve noted before, one top level Marine shooter friend of mine is in love with the HK though over his DI guns. But beyond him, I find no one in the know that is in love with piston ARs.

Well I do " Know" some that profess to be here on the website but I wouldn't trust their input if it was the last in the world.

Hi Rick is this guy OLDMAN??? Here is a PM that he sent to me.

No Jimmy, it is just one of almost 100 members from our gun club that are now members here. We have a list of all the user names and passwords posted on the clubhouse cork board as well as the user name and password for the image hosting site we all use. Anyone can use anyone. There have been 100s of posts the trolls don't even know happened so they are now attacking at random anyone they think might be one of us. So far they are batting ZERO, but are pizzing off a lot of nice folks.

The trolls have lost the war and just BTW was there anything offensive, insulting or incorrect in the posting ?
Any death threats as we have received ? Guttersnipe language as the trolls use all the time ?

Perhaps Bin has gotten the word from his sponsors and other members, with whom we spent $10,000.00+ in 2011, that we, not the trolls, are an asset to the site.

Stop being a lemming, think for yourself rather than a blind follower of a dozen or so hateful, cowardly, little "men" who contribute nothing to the site. Examine the post on its merits. If you have an adult opinion or constructive criticism based on facts we would all love to hear it.

Our best from Wyoming, Roger

jimmyp,

yes

roger=larry=interthem=oldman1942=bosslady= .......

Thanks, just asked Rick the same thing. Would not have done it without interthem's PM that I posted above.

adios Jimmie boy, you and EH are now joined.

Good job JimmmyP !!

This has been very informative. That is why I posed the question. I prefer informed decision making over impulse buys which, I have been known to do. I have always been interested in a better mouse trap but have come to learn that mouse traps are certainly not discriminate on whom they drop the break-neck spring.

This may come as a surprise to some but I am most interested in the 458 SOCOM. I came within a gnats whisker of purchasing one two weeks ago but was concerned I may have been buying someone elses problems.

I appreciate all the input.

Will you please limit your input to the subject matter ONLY?

If you're looking to fight with someone, go to their house, face them man to man & duke it out.

Hmmmm...you don't think...

No, not possible

....

...no way

...

Intertherm actually is the notorious Mall Ninja?

If you are looking at the 458 SOCOM, you obviously have a purpose in mind for the rifle.

I do not own one of those, so I can't say one way or the other, but if it suits your needs, go for it. I suspect you reload, right?

I would like to shoot one of those. Ought to be a fun one!

Isn't that just special....I'll bet he is worried about it..........NOT!

458 socom is a great round I have the 50 beowulf, and from teh standpoint of bullet choice and can ability, I wished I had the socom instead.

Generally speaking unless a chamber is mangled IE not reamed concentric etc.... any function problem on an AR is usually a matter of some research and generally a fairly inexpensive fix.

Jeff

I think Stoner pretty well knew what he was doing, when he went to DI. You obviously avoid the piston rattling next to the barrel.

I do reload, yes sir. I love all things 45.

Then I think you may have all the answers you were looking for. I look forward to your first range report.

I once read an article on the problems that early M-16's had in Vietnam. It seems the problem mostly where failure to remove a spent case from the chamber and this was mostly caused by a change in powder at the last minute without timing the DI gas system to match. It seam the gas system was moving the bolt back when the case was still under pressure and being forced against the walls of the chamber, thus jamming the gun.
In other words the problems in Nam were not a inherent flaw in the design, but rather caused by a last minute change in ammo that required a change in gas system timing, which was never done.

Yes, folks always remember the bad vs the good.

The AR is fine platform as is.

BUT you always have to come up wiht some BS crap to make more money... cough silencer etc... The piston in the AR is the same .... ain't nuttin wrong with what we have as is.

Ok, so I have decided to purchase the RRA 458 SOCOM upper which comes with the mid length hand guard: http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=424

Not buying a lower at this time.

Should I simply purchase RRA's entry level model and scout my own personal preferences as far as accessories? Going into it I know I want the front vertical grip attachment so I will need the right hand guard.

Having done very little study on accessories, is there better stuff?

you can always find "better"

The real question is do you need better and can afford better?

Its much like vehicles sometimes IMHO. What does a Benz do that a Chevy doesn't? But if you want the Benz....

But beyond that, for me there has to be a need.

I suspect for what you are aftger, you'll find a 1-1.5 moa gun at worst that will function fine. Then its what you want to add on beyond that.

There are so many different accessories available for AR-15's it's nuts. Some of the stuff is of better quality than others some of it costs more but isn't. A lot of it boils down to personal preference.

I like Geissele triggers, Magpul Miad Grips, Angled ForGrips and Rail Covers, Surefire 952V-TN lights, and Larue Optics Mounts. But that's just personal preference there's 30 other choices to do the same job. If you are set on a Vertical forgrip the little Larue FUG is one of the nicest.

Good luck dressing it out. You'll probably end up changing stuff around later anyway. AR-15s are Adult Lego's...............dj

Personally I hate that operator handguard and it looks to take a special wrench to remove. It's too big, too heavy and just plain ugly. I could not find the right place to "drive" the gun. See if they'd build you one with a Troy TRX Extreme rail and a low profile gas block.

Lot's of choices out there and if you're set on a vertical grip, look at Tango Down. I prefer the stubby grips but I use it mostly for a hand stop which is another option...

All gas operated guns have to poop somewhere.

Direct Impingement poops where it eats, but it's in a location that at least is convenient to clean up after. All else being equal, the DI system probably will fail to function due to accumulation of poop after fewer rounds fired than an OpRod (gas piston) system.

Typically you have to remove the OR gun's handguards to clean up its poop, which is more involved than breaking down the DI gun to access its breech. But that's an action that typically is needed far less frequently than cleaning the poop from a DI gun. I haven't heard a credible real-world field report on them yet but there are a couple of piston ARs and piston conversions for ARs that advertise they are "self-cleaning."

The bolt in a DI gun gets much hotter in operation than the bolt in an OR gun, too hot to handle, which can be a deal-breaker if for some reason you might need to do emergency maintenance on the bolt (probably not very likely).

The OR system necessarily puts reciprocating mass outside the centerline of the bore, which potentially can negatively impact accuracy.

The OR system has additional parts, additional weight, additional complexity, additional manufacturing costs and additional potential single points of failure.

The OR system also will spray hot poop over whatever happens to be near the gas block when it releases the gas. This might be you hands or gloves or whatever you have hanging on your accessory rails. In the real world, the OR gun's hot poop has been known to overheat handguards.

OR platforms are fussier than DI about gas port tuning if you try to run them suppressed.

If you've heard the nightmare stories and have qualms about the DI platform's reliability, check out this video. It's an M-4, being fired full auto as fast as the operator can change mags:

[video:yahoo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kzfm4pYhIyY[/video]

At around 400 shots fired, the handguard begins to catch fire. At about 420, one round cooks off. Except for that one cook-off (and the bit about catching fire), the carbine functions normally until its gas tube melts after firing 810 rounds (27x30) in just over four minutes. That's about 190 RPM in a platform with a recommended sustained rate of fire of 12-15 RPM.


Stoner wasn't married to DI. He built the Armalite AR-18 as a piston-operated advancement on the AR-16.

EDIT:
If my media tag for the video isn't working, it's here.

I wonder how much him selling the rights to the M-16 and it's DI operating system to Colt, had to do with the divorce???

Nice video.

I have pulled the BCG from my DI AR after some pretty long strings of fire and it was never too hot to handle while the barrel would blister skin.

The video shows how well the DI AR works and also shows how poorly most in the firearms industry shoot. As the video goes you can actually see the shooter improve his reloads and become more efficient at keeping the gun running.

I am always amazed at how well designed the ergos are on the AR-15 and it seems possible (based on the AR-18) that Stoner got somewhat lucky with the AR-10 and AR-15 in this respect.

This really is why all the other pretenders like the SCAR have such an uphill battle in the Carbine Improvement program. If the contenders keep the inline recoil then it is just another AR and if they try and drop the stock to look different then the gun will never shoot with the AR in the hands of someone who has the slightest clue.

We used to practice rattle battle as a team quite a bit, and I did it at home because I wanted to be proficient.

600 yards could get upwards of 40 plus hits on a silhouette(with irons) in 50 seconds from prone. That of course included 1-2 mag changes.

I'd shoot that time and again. I still never had any melting or fire issues etc... which confirms a lot of what John says here. Still no reason to go piston.

Nice video. I wonder how much longer if any the gas tube would have lasted in a rifle length?

I am impressed with the input here & thankful.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/09/a-clean-wouldnt-hurt/

Pictures of an DI AR-15 after 16,000 rounds of Wolfe ammo without cleaning, just lube every 1000 rounds. May be dirty, but it still fired.

Wonder what lubricant he was using?

Reloader,

I have been very fortunate to have been given the opportunity by Uncle Sam to be cross trained as an armorer on a whole host of weapons systems, including the M4/M16 series, as well as be the guy in the field carrying it.

I can tell you from spending many hours inside of many defense manufacturers factories acting like a sponge, that I have zero problem carrying a Colt M4 into battle,. The DI system M4/M16 series has served me well in some pretty lousy places, in some pretty austere conditions and has never let me down.

Ya, I may have a deal on a DD m4 v7, but still wonder to just get another colt.

Granted it's not that evil steel cased stuff but EAG Tactical has a Bravo Company AR that goes by the nom de guerre 'filthy 14' they use in their classes that has been cleaned once in more than 40,000 rounds fired. S.W.A.T. magazine reported on it about a year and a half ago when the round count was 31,165. It has had two or three parts replaced due to breaking/melting but there was a post at ar15.com a couple of weeks ago that said the up-to-date count was 42,770.

EDIT:
That post at AR15.com was wrong. There's a post from Pat Rogers hisself at lightfighter made last July that says it was up to 43,345.

No, no way in hell a non piston gun could run that long. DI from what I've heard, the guns just actually DIE around 10,000 rounds IF they get that far before being so jammed up it would take a torch to cut em apart...

Damn piston guys try anything to fix whats not broken.....

Rost, you can take whatever Pat Rogers says to the bank.

That round count doesn't involve no lube, it just doesn't involve detailed cleaning.

I was being a smart azz..... DI has worked that fine for years and years. I"ve got maybe close to 10 new barrels on some of my guns... never ran into a failure, jam etc... which amazes me. Keep em somewhat clean, IE not letting the lube get gummy in the upper, and keep em lubed and they seem to want to run forever.

Which is why I ask... WTF is about gas pistons that folks feel the need?

We had a guy shoot competition highpower one year, he was a high master shooter, took his service gun, shot it ALL year without cleaning the barrel. Wiped the carrier and lubed that every month. He usually shot 12 months of the year. Usually shot 2 matches a weekend if he could find them. Thats typically meaning without any practice and such, and not counting high round count big matches, he was shooting probably on average of give or take, 800 rounds a month, probably closer to 1000 if I wanted to bet.... no issues either.

It's common knowledge on the Internet that DI guns fail 90 %of the time....

So many experts, so little knowledge

It is funny how things change over time.

The piston AR in the world of real high speed low drag was intended to make Short Barreled Rifles (SBRs) with suppressors reliable before we understood how to make SBRs with Suppressors reliable with the DI system.

Now days the guys in the know understand how to make the DI system work better than any piston in the first 2000 rounds or so without any cleaning or maintenance.

Give me a shovel and some nice dirt or sand and I can stop a piston gun sooner than a well built DI gun in the first 2000 rounds from a good cleaning and lubing.

After 2000 rounds and no cleaning then the silly piston might have an advantage.

The overpressure of the DI system will blow sand and crap out of the action long before the carbon build up will be a problem.

We had 11.5in Bushmasters in Iraq in 05 that had issues at first. Bushmaster got us different springs and buffers and they ran great after that.

Larry Vickers used to be pro-piston. Now he says they likely are only beneficial for sustained full auto fire.

I've used DI M16's and M4's in just about every environment from Arctic to Desert to Jungle and never found myself wishing I had a gas piston system. DI works just fine.

Maybe I am too nice to my guns, I have never got sand or dirt in them, only some rain water sometimes, they never fail but now I know I need to buy a mini 14 because it has a piston and will be more reliable.

ANY time you leave the original design, you run into issues until they can be sorted out. Same went for M4s for a bit and that design even includes the ammo used....

But its all been fairly easy to solve the issue in the end.

I have no idea where you tards get loss of accuracy from a piston system?? show me one article or test to prove that?
My p308 is deadly accurate. and If I REALLY want to be super accurate I can turn off the gas system and shoot it single shot,its basically a bolt gun at that point.

Well then, that settles that.

good try Oldman, bosslady, interthem what ever your calling yourself tonight. Lets see you post a picture of you and your rifle.

Well, I get my "idea" that they aren't accurate from a friend who spent a week doing a T&E on several different brands. For that eval, he had access to limitless match grade 556 ammo.

Ole douche said the other day he had 100 new usernames............

Piston,

Piston is great in the since your Upper reciever and BCG stay clean. All of the Gas is expelled through the piston area. The bad par about that is if you dont keep theose working parts clean in the pison and lubed, they will seaze up......

Direct,
Stoner assembly since NAM. Proven out over many many manymyears. It went through minor changes over the years. The only bad thing about this is the upper and BCG get dirty and you should lube lightly after every range time or hunting. A light coat go's a long way.

I read an article in Shooting Times or Guns and Ammo where they did a torture test on six AR rifles from various makers. 3 gas guns and 3 piston guns. After dunking them in pond slime, oil, sand, concrete dust, and just about anything else they could think of guess who kept firing. 2 gas guns [including a RRA] and another make.

The piston guns didn't make it to the end of the test.

Is ur gun mayntanance and pisstun gun as good as ur speling?

Pistons are direct action, not dependent on un-obstructed valves, so such actions' mechanisms are more reliable, and less dependent on keeping clean.

OR they have more moving parts and can be LESS reliable.

As I said in my previous post, the test run by a national magazine didn't prove the piston guns as more reliable. In fact the only 2 guns to make it thru the test were GAS GUNS.

I think the reason people think the piston is more reliable is because the AK-47 will fire in ANY situation or condition. But, I think that has more to do with the loose tolerances of the K gun than the piston. I bet if you made an AK to the tight AR specs, it would prove to be no more reliable than a gas system, but it would be more accurate than the current versions.

Glad you posted on this thread again, it will draw boss lady, enter them, who ever he is today.

Actually, the main reason for the "reliability" of the AK-47 has to do with the cartridge it uses. The 7.62X39 has a much more pronounced taper compared to say the 5.56X45. This makes it much easier to load cartridges and eject spent casings.

It also makes for some seriously curved magazines.

If that's the case, why does the 5.56x39 in the AK-74 have the same reliability? That case doesn't seem to be overly tapered.

Everything I've even seen or heard said the reason the AK was reliable was because of the loose tlerances. That is also the reason for the loose accuracy.

Either way, in the real world the piston actions are LESS reliable than a correctly made gas gun.

Lol, the AK's round does help, but the reliability is 95% more to do with the action and specs.

Anyway, carrier tilt, initial expense, and expensive/rare parts mean it makes little sense to get a piston gun. Get a 5.56 AK if you don't want a DI AR.

There's a lot to be said for not ever having to scrape carbon off of a bolt. I run an Osprey Defense piston conversion in my own carbine and have installed over a dozen of them without a single hiccup. No permanent modification to your rifle, no valves, no springs, no changes to be made for blanks, cans, or caliber change. It just runs, guys. Shoot me a PM and I'll hook you up with the best deal on one.

Why would anyone want to make a 100% reliable gas gun into a less than 100% reliable piston gun? Do people like to lose accuracy? Do they like jams and things going wrong?

I shot a lot of AR barrels out.

In the process of that IE killing a barrel, I can count on one hand the number of times I"ve felt compelled to scrape carbon..... and I've shot out more barrels on ARs than a lot of folks ever have.

The 7.62X39 has a body taper with a an agle of 1.2 degrees, this is almost three times as much taper as the 5.56X45 which has a body tape of 0.47 degrees. The 5.45X39 has a body taper of 0.72 degrees which is quite a lot more than the 5.56X45. The 7.62X51 is the straightest of the bunch with a taper of 0.35 degrees. (I sure hope I got my trig right.)

You can have loose tolerances all you want but, the issue of reliability has to do with getting cartridges in and pulling fired cases out and shorter cones go in and out a lot easier than longer rods.

As for your final statement that only applies to piston Vs jet ARs. A rifle designed from the ground up to be piston-powered can be extremely reliable. In the case of the AR, the piston is an afterthought that negates many of the design advantages of the rifle.

Carbon scrapping is important, if you want to have a good looking BCG.

I have a little tool made just for that and whenever I get around to cleaning the BCG, I use it, just because I have the tool.

Remembering that diamonds are pure carbon, it's easy to see how carbon deposits can be so hard.

"There's a lot to be said for not ever having to scrape carbon off of a bolt."


Even Pat Rogers has said that it's not necessary to scrape carbon off a DI bolt.

Of course it's not necessary. I think we all agree on that.

But in my old age, I like clean shiny things.

If you want other useless things to do, buy some of those long pipe cleaners and stick them in the gas tube to clean it.


No wait, that's actually destructive. Never mind.

I'm lazy as you are probably aware.. I used to keep a glass bottle of cleaner and when it came time for a good cleaning, soak the complete BCG in it for a day or two, pull apart and finish cleaning.

Scraping is a PITA. But then again hard carbon fouling has to be taken out by abrasives in the throat area.. but in that area its an issue, but in the tail of the bolt... other than wanting it clean and shiny there isn't any real reason to do it IMHO... unless you have the other DI standing there....

What do you guys clean with. I use Breakfree CLP. Do you put some down the gas tube? I never have.

Clean? What is that?

When I clean my RRA guns, I use foaming bore cleaner, Rem oil in the action, and Hoppes #9 on the outside.

Don't. Keep it lubed and shoot it.




Somewhere North of 6k rounds without cleaning so far.




I have went well over 10k rounds on properly built M4's/AR15's between cleanings. Keep it wet and rock on.

It still shoots accurately after 6k? I don't clean my AR after each range day but that is a lot of rounds.

I don't clean mine very much either, I clean the barrel to get the copper out for accuracy once in a while, I wipe off the bolt and carrier and fill it up with slip 2000EWL, it smokes sometimes.

I guess I don't worry about stuff that works. I bet that a Colt with DI if lubricated properly will run just as long as one of these piston guns. Someone prove me wrong.

Depends on what you consider "accurate"? This is an issued Colt 14.5in M4 with free-float fore end. When new it averaged 5 shot 1-1.25 MOA groups with MK262 MOD1, which is 5.56mm pressure 77gr SMK's. It now averages around 1.5in or a little over for 5 rounds with MK262 MOD1. I expect the barrel to go at anytime so it is mostly regulated to a training gun anymore.

IME some will lose acceptable accuracy for the purpose (solid 2MOA) as soon as 4-5,000 rounds and others may go 10k+..... I start getting suspicious around the 6k mark as things tend to start to go south then- mainly bolts breakage and gas port erosion. In any case they don't have to be cleaned. Just keep them lubed.

Just to clarify I'm only speaking to guns built to military spec or better. I.E.- Colt, Noveske, Danial Defense, etc. Hobby guns are a different animal.

I cleaned with Shooters Choice and one of the good copper cleaners and abrasives when I did.

Buttoned tubes would be tossed at 3500 rounds, cut ones start suspicious at 5-6000 rounds.

I"ve had them hold just around MOA or over to over 12K rounds once just on an experiment, but it was getting hard to continue winning matches and such with a gun that innaccurate.

Cleaning wise I could see a degrade in accuracy around the 500 to 600 round mark, enough so that I was anal enough to clean at that point.

But long gone are the days of cleaning our M14s every night, even if only 30 shots fired.

Granted I demanded and expected a bit more accuracy than most would.... IE when the gun was shooting larger than 2 inches for 10 shots at 300 yards it was high time to clean or rebarrel...

Whatever... Run your nasty guns and be proud. I'm just the poor gunsmith who gets to clean up all the messes. Impingement guns are good for business.

Gas guns don't require the upkeep of a piston gun. Check out the Guns and Ammo torture test done last year. They did everything possible to 4 piston guns and two gas guns. The RRA elite operator and a Larue gas gun where the only ones to continue functioning. Even with their match triggers and match chambers they kept working while the other 4 piston guns were out of commission.

Go ahead and drink the piston Kool-Aid, but time and history proves the gas guns to be better.

You are full of beans, this runs contrary to my experience and to everyone else s experience. Why would you post such crap?

I think you are drunk. I"ve yet to see an issue with a DI AR that would require a supposed gunsmith. And Iv'e shot them, well lets just say, a fair bit over the years....

One needs to remember that not all shooters, or rather, gun owners, know how to take care of their guns. The AR is still a mystery for many of their owners.

For example, I am sure we have all seen the video of the guy who has an ammo issue with his AR but he keeps chambering rounds, bumping the forward assist button and getting clicking sounds after pressing the trigger. He does this until the gun blows up.

Then there was the time when I when to a local public range (I think that was the last time I ever went to a public range,) a few years back. Some guy was messing with the trigger of his AR after removing the upper. He kept pressing the trigger and letting the hammer hit the lower's front end. I cringed every time he did that and finally I walked over and gently informed him that was not a good thing to do, he should put something between the hammer and the lower to catch the hammer. He gave me "the look" and I just apologized for disturbing him and left.

I have seen too many people buy an AR, and the very cheapest ammo they can find and then load up mags and just empty the magazines in the general direction of the target. Most of the rifles I saw were simply not lubed.

We all know a DI AR will run forever, provided it's wet. (I do grease myself, but I have oil just in case a quick squirt may be needed. Anything is better than running dry.)

So, I have no difficulty in believing that CFAR sees abused ARs.

I would think however, that anyone here would have no problems running their DI ARs as long as they need to run.

lets see some pictures of them abused AR's.

I don't have pictures of the guy slamming the hammer in the lower.

CAFR should be able to provide some picture of the ARs he says he works on, I don't have any of those.

My question was directed to CAFR, hoping he would show us some pictures.

Good video, why does none of this stuff happen to me?

Geez, I don't know. Could it be because you know what you're doing?

I know that, but that video is just too funny.

Sorry Bud. I haven't taken any photos of any grungy ARs to show you. I stand by my statements about the Osprey kit. Go ahead and futz around with gas rings and slobbering oil all over your rifle. I like my GP rifles and will probably never go back to DI. This "supposed" gunsmith has stated his opinion and doesn't wish to impose his will on any of you experts. Opinions are like A$$holes, everybody has one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egf8M9vIE4M&feature=player_embedded

Another cool vid. addressing reliability.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3hBXCvYIuk&feature=player_embedded

Here is the article from Guns and Ammo. read it and tell me if the piston guns are still worth the added weight and expense.

http://funreviews.net/publish/guns/AR_Reliability_Torture_Test.php


I doubt any of us would treat our guns like these guns where treated. Give me a gas gun and leave the piston guns home.

The whole united states military is wrong, I must get pistons installed, I know my current carbines work just fine and the others I have owned all have worked fine, but this amazing revelation regards how to turn a functioning mil spec carbine into a hobby gun is now at the top of my "to do" list.

If it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.


Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzUUOBfLpk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Flimsy looks fragile

This YouTube Video guy has made a lot of assumptions about the kit without actually torture testing it. In fact, the kit reduces your total part count on the rifle and isn't nearly as fragile or complicated as he reports. At least it's not as complicated as the other piston systems available today. You need not make any adjustments or use any devices on your weapon to go from blanks to full power loads, to shooting with a suppressor. Additionally, without introducing gas and carbon into the upper receiver, necessitating the use of copious amounts of grit collecting oil, the bolt carrier and upper receiver are exposed to far less heat and wear.

The horse and buggy were quite adequate as a mode of transportation. People laughed at Henry Ford and wondered why anyone would buy a car when you are already feeding the farm horses and they would get you there, too.

Let's look at some of the stellar decisions that our military has made about weapons. Drop the .45 ACP in favor of the 9mm so the girls can shoot, too?

I'm still not trying to sway you die hards, but the newbies have a right to know the facts about GP systems and their benefits.

Did you read the article I posted a link to? What in that article would make anyone buy a piston gun?

He must own stock in them, that or facts, data, and years of experience don't count

Pistons are just something else to sell something to fix a problem that does not exist

Totally agree on the horse/buggy vs car statement. Always have. Folks move forward.
As needed.
The DI AR provides nothing that wasn't already there and nothing special enough that warrants it. Thats as simple as it can get.

If you WANT one then tahts cool, but there is no reason to HAVE to have one. Especially not for 99% of the folks out there. I'll be arrogant and say that I could be in teh 1% IE folks that really run the snot out of em and can't afford them not to run, but i'll be danged if I've ever had an issue with one that wasn't ammo related. Except an ancient SGW one from the early 80s...

I confess that I know virtually nothing about these piston conversion kits, so I am always open to learning more.

I watched the video and I saw all the new parts, that replace a simple gas tube. So I was wondering how there could be less parts with that piston than on a DI system.

The Osprey web site shows that you get 9 parts with the kit:
1- Op-rod
2- Piston Chamber
3- Roll pin
4- Carrier
5- Piston
6- Valve retaining clip
7- Piston retaining clip
8- bushing
9- Groove pin

This replaces:
Carrier with staked carrier key using 2 screws. It's 4 parts that are treated as 1, I never remove the key.
Gas tube
Roll pin
3 gas rings on the bolt, but I use a MacFarland ring, so one piece.

I'm thinking that saying there are less parts is somewhat misleading. In fact, 9 new parts really replace 4 old parts; to me, that makes it more complicated.

As that famous Philosopher Scotty said to Captain Kirk, " the more complicated the plumbing the easier to stop up the pipes".

The KISS principal holds true all over but really needs to be adhered to when your life could be in the balance. More moving parts is not simple, and is more likely to cause issues at the worst time.

Interesting statement, IIRC the Germans ran into the same thing, to GOOD of engineering and too many parts failed in real life battle.

Why did that guy even touch that plunger let alone constantly bang on it? I just pretend the thing doesn't exist.

The Luger pistol was exquisitely well-made but the high quality, low tolerance manufacture made it susceptible to fouling from ordinary dust and grime, so it had to be issued with a holster that kept it fully encapsulated and clean.

For the last 45 years, every trigger puller in the US military has been a field tester for Colt Armament's DI AR15 platform. And it's been standard issue for more than 70 other countries. That's why it's one of the best-developed and most refined weapons platforms on the planet. It has no flaws that aren't already well-documented.

About two months ago, more than sixty years after the fact, Colt finally released their own OpRod AR, which they probably never would have done if the HK416 (and similar) weren't taking market share.

For clarity the short stroke piston M4 (HK416) was developed for a reason. That being reliability and service life from the military issued CQBR (10.5 inch M4) suppressed and with extremely heavy firing cycles was less then ideal. You have to understand that in 2003-2004 the issued 10.5in upper for certain military users was not the 10.5 inch guns we have now. We didn't have the buffers, springs, adjustable gas blocks, and fully developed barrels that are available. I have been issued and used the original CQBR, HK416, and current issued MK18 10.5 inch guns. The 416 was the piston guns all other were measured against. And truthfully was the gun all SBR's were judged against for military use. For several reasons that is not necessarily the case anymore.


Unless you need a suppressed, short barrel rifle, for heavy firing cycles, most users would be better served with the standard DI AR15/M4.

I don't know if this has been discussed but wouldn't developing a cleaner burning powder be more productive than developing more piston rifles?

I'm thinking there is more room for improvement with fewer hassles. I like reloading with Alliant RL10 becuase I get velocity with less powder. Less powder means less carbon residue. Can powder be developed that leaves less residue without velocity loss? Just a thought. kwg

Cleaning isn't the issue. You do not have to clean a properly built AR. They will go thousands of rounds between cleaning as long as they are kept wet.

Problem there as noted, is not that it needed a piston but some design idiot needed to note there are relationships with gas ports, lag time, burn rates, carrier weights etc... and follow the relationship, not simply shorten the barrel basically and expect it all to work just fine.

This is precisely what the guy from SOCOM who helped develop the 416 told me. FWIW, a suppressed SBR 416 is the carbine that took out Bin Laden.

I will get a 9 piece chicken McNugget meal instead of the 9 piece osprey Piston McUpgrade.

I like your thinking but I think it's a hopeless task unless and until there is a drastic change in propellant technology. I looked at the Alliant site for RL-10x recipes and the amount of powder is very similar to what I use with Varget or other powders. You would need a substantial reduction in charge weight to make any perceptible difference and that will bring in reliability issues in the AR because it needs a certain volume of gas to unlock the bolt and move the carrier backward.

TAC is pretty clean

Not to mention that reducing charges can often reduce reliability, accuracy and even in certain cases be unsafe.

Of course as noted the reduction from a charge of 10 vs 15 for example, isn't enough to worry about.

gas impingement.

One of the reasons the snake eaters need an oprod gun is that, until you can drain it, it will impair the function of a DI gun if you submerge it and the gas tube fills with water. The OpRod keeps 'em from turning into single shot carbines. Myself, I prevent the problem by slipping a finger cot over the muzzle brake before I go scuba diving with a DI AR.

HK has been hard at work for at least 30 years on cleaner burning powder in conjunction with their caseless ammunition weapons platform. Caseless means there's nothing to eject. But it won't be ready for prime time until they create a case that is so nearly completely consumed that the operating mechanism can slough off what remains with no ill effect.

A mystery to me as I would not fire a gun with water in the barrel, forget about other stuff.

I just felt the need to add something to this wonderfully informative thread The music is perfect.



Terry

This video carries about the same credibility as the one you posted.

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BhTjifulPB8[/video]

Nice video Larry.

you are right. Larry is back with a new handle, he is the only numbnutz on this forum that will take an arcane POS product, label it "good" and actively defend the POS.

Numnutz? arcane POS? Tell us how you really feel, Jimbo salesman from Georgia.... LOL

Larry is the biggest piece of internet [bleep] I"ve ever had the displeasure of knowing.

I'm putting a .300 AAC AR together next week. I'm probably going piston on this one, as well. The Osprey will work with both sub and supersonic ammo. I expect that you would have to use an adjustable gas block on a DI carbine.

Show us a picture of it when you get it built Larry

I'm not Larry

Another reason the snake eaters want an OpRod gun is they're less temperamental than DI at SBR lengths less than 10.5 inches.

How about a picture of you refinishing a gun? You sure sound like Larry Root. Further he is a known champion of any probable FAIL technology and oddball exercise totally and only for the purpose of starting an argument.

Jimmy P, you sound like a know it all. How about a picture of you not sucking. hehe

OK Larry, let's see how long you last under the CAFR handle.

Someone tell this Tard that I'm NOT Larry. Seriously, Dude.

If you aren't that in bold is a dead give away that you are.......that is a Larry signature phrase.

Whatever...