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Posted By: Ackleyfan Forward assist? - 02/25/12
I see upper recievers some with and some without, are they a must have?
Posted By: BESpain Re: Forward assist? - 02/25/12
no
Posted By: MontanaMarine Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
No.

But I wouldn't have an AR without it.

It's one of those things you never need, until you do.
Posted By: XL5 Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Only if you're carrying it in combat.

This is an original AR-15, on display in the NRA's National Firearms Museum:

[Linked Image]

The forward assist was neither Stoner's design nor his idea.
Posted By: blanket Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
It's a handy little device that will let you go from a jam you can clear by pulling back on the op handle and bouncing the butt on the ground to one you can't beat open with a rock
Posted By: Take_a_knee Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Don't need it. Air Force SOF units didn't have them on their carbines until they got M4's which is fairly recent.

If and when you have a malfunction, IF you hit that forward assist, you just [bleep] yourself.

The only purpose it can possibly serve, is to ensure the bolt is completely in battery after a press check. And even this is moot ,'cause if you load the gun properly and check for crossover, you don't need to presscheck it.
Posted By: Ackleyfan Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Sounds like it doesn't hurt to have one!
Posted By: TXRam Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Can't remember ever needing it for live ammo, but I can tell you that MILES gear would NEVER have worked without a forward assist. Between the rifle getting dirty and low powered blanks, I remember having to hit it every round.
Posted By: ranger1 Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Not sure about the Air Force but the Army uses SPORTS in a failure to fire situation. The "T" in SPORTS is for tapping the forward assist. This procedure won't create a worse jam because the "O", which is for observe, will ensure that the feed path is clear. If the feed path is clear and you "R" release the charging handle, you should be good to go. If not, your rifle is out of commission either way, at least for the time being. I also like to use the forward assist in extremely cold weather while coyote hunting to ensure that the bolt is closed. IMHO MontanaMarine has it right - not that useful until you need it and then nothing else will do.
Posted By: XL5 Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Using the forward assist to drive a stubborn bullet fully into battery is exactly like beating a bolt action with a rubber mallet to close it.

I've got no problem with taking a hammer to Uncle Sam's rifle that I drew from the unit armory. But if it's my rifle bought and paid for, unless I'm about to be overrun by Fuzzy-Wuzzies and my life depends on getting it up and running RIGHT NOW, if I can't push the bolt closed with finger pressure applied to the recess in the bolt that Stoner put there for that very purpose, I'm gonna opt for taking a few minutes to catch up on maintenance and fix whatever's making it difficult to chamber.
Posted By: Ackleyfan Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Good info guys!
Posted By: blanket Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
The forward assist gives you a device to beat the bolt forward harder than what you have to pull it back open with. All joking aside, I use them to make sure the bolt is pushed all the way forward when riding the bolt down to keep charging the rifle quiet when calling. Other than that it is punch the bolt release or let it fly forward with a pull of the charging handle.
Posted By: AKduck Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Its not needed. Cant hurt to have it, but Ive never had to use it....countless malfunction drills and through actual training I cant think of one time Ive ever used one or seen one used. And we have induced some horrific jams for our drills.
Posted By: TWR Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
I wish I could find the report again on the fallen soldier who spent all night with his NV and suppressor killing the enemy in either Iraq or Afghanistan but it's been awhile.

Anyway this soldier was finally killed but when they found him, his palm was bruised from beating the filthy weapon into battery and killing one more enemy soldier.

That is what the FA is for, for the rest of us, we have time to clean...
Posted By: AKJD Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
The Army uses SPORTS because it is so far behind the rest of the world in proper clearance procedures for malfunctions.

FTF MALFUNCTION=PUSH/PULL, RACK AND ROLL, ASSESS
Posted By: TXRam Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
"Miller hadn't fired a weapon for seven months, and he admits he wasn't the best marksman. He was an Army mechanic, and when he'd taken his first marksmanship test, he'd failed it.

So what did he do? "One guy, like, jumped up to where I could see him, and he had a mortar round in his hand, getting ready to drop it in the tube," he says. "And as he jumped up, I just raised my rifle up and shot, and he fell over."

It was the first shot he fired in the incident. The lousy marksman hit home.

But after that first shot, his rifle jammed. He had to pound on it with the palm of his hand, after every shot, to get the next bullet loaded into the chamber. He kept on re-loading and shooting. "I was kind of getting a rhythm down, count like seconds and then look up," he explains. "And you could see somebody else trying to load it. So, I was starting to count, and when I'd get to the number, I'd look up. And somebody else would be trying to load it, and I'd shoot. I did that probably seven times total. I counted the last time, and when I looked up, there wasn't nobody there." " - copied from a 60minutes website, story about the Jessica Lynch deal in Iraq.

Would a clean weapon have prevented this - I'm absolutely sure it would have. But how the hell do you keep it clean craling around in sand???
Posted By: BarryC Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
I like the forward assist.

Sometimes I ease the bolt forward and it doesn't fully lock up. A tap on the FA seats it that last smidgeon.
Posted By: JohnBurns Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
I find the FA useful sometimes (I like to press check) but as other have said you can sure make a mess an even worse mess if you don�t use some common sense.

I do have a Bushmaster Carbon 15 that does not have the FA or a dust cover. This is one of the last guns built at the Lake Havasu plant before BM moved everything. It is gassed heavy and sprung heavy and cycles really fast. I don�t shoot it much and keep it clean and lubed and it has never once bobbled in a whole 500 rnds. shocked

Having a couple ARs with the FA and one without the FA I guess I think the Forward Assist is a good feature.
Posted By: Take_a_knee Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
Originally Posted by AKJD
The Army uses SPORTS because it is so far behind the rest of the world in proper clearance procedures for malfunctions.

FTF MALFUNCTION=PUSH/PULL, RACK AND ROLL, ASSESS


We teach, tap-rack-bang, just like with a pistol. Run the charging handle with your left hand. When the SFAUC program started in the 90's Army SF units went to that. There were still knuckleheads there who wanted to teach that SPORTS BS but they were squelched.
Posted By: bea175 Re: Forward assist? - 02/26/12
I personally would build a AR without it
Posted By: Ruger280 Re: Forward assist? - 02/27/12
I like it, glad mine has it. Great to pop the extractor over the rim if you follow the charging handle a little too much. Hell of a lot better then pulling the mag and dropping the bolt again.

Used it a couple times varmint calling the other night as a matter of fact.
Posted By: cmr287 Re: Forward assist? - 04/29/12
They are. If you buy one with out it, you are throwing your money away...
Posted By: RyanScott Re: Forward assist? - 04/29/12
I now have four uppers without the FA and haven't had an issue. I can't even stage the sort of malfunction in my Colt that would require the FA, despite having fired 1400 rounds without cleaning since I got it in 2010.
Posted By: Formidilosus Re: Forward assist? - 04/30/12
Originally Posted by cmr287
They are. If you buy one with out it, you are throwing your money away...



I don't know why your are doing drive by's on all these old posts tonight, but at least give good advice. Everyone has been wrong.
Posted By: rost495 Re: Forward assist? - 04/30/12
FA sure does make quiet chambering when hunting a lot easier.

And for the dust storms we ride around in at times... just a bit more peace of mind for chambering rounds when we find a yote/hog etc...

I especially wouldn't pay MORE for a stripped upper with LESS on it...

And no one ever decided to do away with FA on the M1, M1 carbine, AK, SKS, M14 etc....(well that could make initial chambering a bit rough though...)
Posted By: RyanScott Re: Forward assist? - 04/30/12
When it was first added to the rifle the FA was an increase in cost of 5%. Now economies of scale favor the FA, but that will change as uppers without FA become more popular.

As to chambering quietly, I can do that without the FA too, but I'm not in the habit of running around with an empty weapon.
Posted By: greentimber Re: Forward assist? - 04/30/12
Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
No.

But I wouldn't have an AR without it.

It's one of those things you never need, until you do.



+1

No reason to not have it. I've seen magazine problems cause stoppages that were easily fixed with the slightest nudge on the FA many many times. Same can happen with a dirty & dry rifle.
Posted By: RyanScott Re: Forward assist? - 04/30/12
I'd be curious to know what magazine issues can be fixed by pushing on the bolt.
Posted By: ranger1 Re: Forward assist? - 04/30/12
Bottom line - If you don't like it, then don't buy a rifle that has it. I like to use it to ensure that the bolt is locked in when predator calling. Depends on what you use your AR for I suppose. I see no reason not to have it.
Posted By: RyanScott Re: Forward assist? - 04/30/12
I like not having it because it is seven parts, two springs, a significant number of machining operations, two ounces and it protrudes dramatically from my rifle.

But, that's just me.

FWIW Rainier has been selling 100 of those uppers a month since they brought them out, with the rate increasing dramatically as time went on.
Posted By: JustOneGunner Re: Forward assist? - 05/01/12
Nope. Doesn't hurt anything, but if I got a good deal on a receiver/rifle without an assist I'd jump on it.

If your AR isn't in battery you should be pulling the charging handle, not hitting your FA, anyway.
Posted By: ranger1 Re: Forward assist? - 05/01/12
When the idea is to not make any noise, racking the charging handle is counter productive.
Posted By: RyanScott Re: Forward assist? - 05/06/12
Originally Posted by ranger1
When the idea is to not make any noise, racking the charging handle is counter productive.


I can lower the bolt on a live round slowly and get it ready to go without a charging handle. The real question is, why can't you?
Posted By: AKduck Re: Forward assist? - 05/06/12
Originally Posted by Ackleyfan
I see upper recievers some with and some without, are they a must have?


No.
Posted By: Take_a_knee Re: Forward assist? - 05/06/12
Originally Posted by RyanScott
Originally Posted by ranger1
When the idea is to not make any noise, racking the charging handle is counter productive.


I can lower the bolt on a live round slowly and get it ready to go without a charging handle. The real question is, why can't you?


When someone is trying to kill your a$$, the noise isn't an issue.

If you are slowly lowering an AR bolt, and not checking for crossover, you are fundamentally ignorant of how to operate the weapon. Just because stupid schit works most of the time doesn't mean it isn't still stupid.
Posted By: TWR Re: Forward assist? - 05/06/12
When coyotes start shooting back, I'll take this "schit" more seriously...

In the mean time I load at the truck and I'm pretty sure they heard the truck rolling in anyway. I also know how to load a magazine (push/pull) and have never had one of my guns not pick up a shell.
Posted By: RyanScott Re: Forward assist? - 05/06/12
WTF is crossover?
Posted By: Formidilosus Re: Forward assist? - 05/07/12
Checking the magazine for which side the top round is on, inserting and chambering then removing mag and feeling that the top round is on the opposite side.

It is to ensure that a round has in fact been chambered... Like a press check only different.
Posted By: TWR Re: Forward assist? - 05/07/12
I think he's referring to checking the mag to see which side the shell is on and after loading a round, removing said mag to see if the next round is on the other side now. I know the GP is to keep from having to press check but I could be wrong.

Push/pull is quicker and doesn't double the chance of a mag not seating.
Posted By: Take_a_knee Re: Forward assist? - 05/07/12
Originally Posted by TWR
When coyotes start shooting back, I'll take this "schit" more seriously...

In the mean time I load at the truck and I'm pretty sure they heard the truck rolling in anyway. I also know how to load a magazine (push/pull) and have never had one of my guns not pick up a shell.


Just wait 'till them "tactical" coy dogs get after you.
Posted By: RyanScott Re: Forward assist? - 05/10/12
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Checking the magazine for which side the top round is on, inserting and chambering then removing mag and feeling that the top round is on the opposite side.

It is to ensure that a round has in fact been chambered... Like a press check only different.


Thats what I do and I call it a press check.
Posted By: Take_a_knee Re: Forward assist? - 05/11/12
Originally Posted by RyanScott
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Checking the magazine for which side the top round is on, inserting and chambering then removing mag and feeling that the top round is on the opposite side.

It is to ensure that a round has in fact been chambered... Like a press check only different.


Thats what I do and I call it a press check.


Well, it ain't.
Posted By: jimmyp Re: Forward assist? - 05/11/12
so maybe I am wrong (not being a smart ass) I put the gun on safe, put the mag in, release the bolt while looking at the bolt and watch it chamber a shell. If it looks and sounds like it always does, I figure it will shoot. I have also pulled back on the charging handle and released the bolt slowly, again same sight, slightly different sound. I have not ever had to use a FA but all my carbines have them.

Posted By: R20 Re: Forward assist? - 05/11/12
I've got a 6.8spc AR-15 that was my first build. Built it mainly for a Hog/Deer Rifle. I built it without the forward assist because I didnt really see the use for one(also liked the way it looked). Used A les baer stripped upper for the build. That being said I've got one on my M&P 15, and my 300BLK. If I had the choice though. probably wouldnt have gotten them.

I guess in a combat situation it may be handy. But even when I've had jams I've never used it(no form of tactical training).

Quote
The forward assist on a rifle is a button found commonly on M16 and AR-15 styled rifles, usually located near the bolt closure, that when hit will push the bolt carrier forward, ensuring that the bolt is locked. In order to ensure that the extractor is clipped around the rim of the shell, the forward assist is usually struck rather than pushed. It is commonly incorporated into standard loading procedure to prepare a weapon for a life threatening situation, or to close the bolt when the weapon is excessively dirty. It can also be used to close a bolt that was gently let down, rather than released under full spring compression, to keep the noise of closing the bolt to a minimum.

The forward assist is generally not necessary as a standard procedure on any weapon with the exception of the British L85A1 version. Having realized the frequency with which the weapon jammed when taken outside of the clean environment of the test range, the forward assist was implemented to save the operator the potential danger of aiming the rifle and pulling the trigger and the rifle not going off because the bolt is not fully forward (a safety arrangement called a "safety sear" stopping the hammer from being released and the weapon firing, because of the dangers of firing with the bolt not fully closed). The design of the L85 makes the forward assist quite awkward as the left supporting arm must come off the hand grip and reach over the top to strike the bolt forward with the left edge of the left hand, much like a "karate chop". A redesign of the L85, known as the A2, alleviated this problem by reducing the number of locking lugs on the bolt and strengthening the recoil spring. However, the "forward-assist" is still often taught simply as a matter of course.


I guess what it comes down to is personal preference. Heck it's cheaper to have one than to order an upper made without the F/A.
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