Thinking of buying one of the new S&W AR-15's in 300 Whisper to use as a suppressed Hog Hunter. Wondering if anyone out there has advise on accuracy & trajectory from personal experience ? I've studied all the ballistic info & am trying to decide between that or the Remington R-15 in .30 AR caliber.... Most of my shots will be 100 yards or less.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I would bet my house that the 30 AR is stillborn.

I would go with the 300 Blackout (SAAMI version of the Whisper). I think the rifle you are looking at will fire them as well, but I would make sure of that.

Loads of good information here:

300 BlkTalk

Ammo and brass for the 300 Blackout will be a LOT more available, and a LOT cheaper.

You can shoot hogs suppressed with the Whisper but I dont see the point in the 30 ar subsonic. The Whisper can be use either super or sub sonic with readily available ammo, the 30ar not so easy. The whisper is fun but a toy mostly.

If I was looking for a dedicated supressed hunting platform I'd consider the 458 socom. A 30 cal non-expanding bullet at 1000 fps just isn't going to provide a bloodtrail, and as we all know, not all kills are bang flops. A 45 cal non expanding bullet at 1000 fps is going to leave a blood trail.

I think the 300 whisper and the blackout are a fascinating concept and have their place in the spec op world, but I don't see the round as the best option for hunting.

I just built an AR in .300 AAC Blackout. Accuracy is MOA or less at100yds shooting 110gr Sierra Varmint Hollowpoints. Looking for a suppressor, now.

I can see by your screen name that you are not a smallbore guy, but this is quite a generalization, don't you think?

I would agree with his theory.

It's not a theory. If you do some research you'll find that in general, consistant blood trails require a 35 caliber or larger bullet. 30 cal and smaller non expanding bullets produce wounds that will be covered up by hair and hide and not produce a consistant blood trail.

If you're just taking headshots, then the 300 will be outstanding. If you're taking heart/lung shots and the hog doesn't drop at the shot, you'll be facing a tracking job with little or no blood trail.

I guess that was misleading. I agree with your theory.

I don't have much interest in sub-sonic (non-expanding) bullets, but the other "theory" is that they tumble on impact, thereby creating a much larger than 30 caliber bullet would provide. Just another theory. Probably right sometimes right, and sometimes not.

I do wonder though, whether a 5.56 expanding bullet ever meets your 35-caliber minimum required for a blood trail. There are a lot of guys that say the 5.56 is enough for deer, and I doubt they are limiting their shot selection to head shots. They must be part-Indian when it comes to tracking.

Until 2 years ago, every deer I ever killed was taken with a Rem 788 in .223, with the exception of a couple taken with a .41 Mag revolver. Never had to track one and never lost one. 2 yrs ago I took a buck with a 788 in .308 just to use the rifle. This year, I'm using my AR in .300 AAC Blackout. I'll borrow the statement that the guys who carry sub .38spl handguns use. "It's not what you shoot 'em with, it's where you hit 'em that counts". I don't agree with them when my life is at stake, but couldn't agree more when it comes to taking non-dangerous game. The 300 AAC has plenty of energy to take a deer.

I think the argument was when fired subsonic...

CAFR . . .

I agree with you completely that the 300 blackout will be great on deer. No question. Within 200 yards or so (YMMV), there is plenty of horsepower.

I was just trying to wrap my arms around the no blood trail if less than 35 caliber statement. It still seems like a huge generalization to me, unless a boatload of additional qualifiers are added.

Have you decided on the bullet yet?

_

So far, I'm hovering around the 110gr Sierra Varmint Hollow Point or the Hornady V-Max in 110gr. I have both loaded up. Just need to get to the range to crony and accuracy test them.

Won't be trying it on deer anytime soon (maybe antelope in October?), but I traded a couple .308 Win rifles for this today:



S&W M&P-15 with .300 Blackout upper
Rock River "coyote" 5.56 upper.
RCBS .300 Blackout dies
21 loaded .300 Whisper rounds plus 18 empty cases

The Magpul MBUS sights are something I added so I can try shooting tomorrow.

I saw your other post too. Looks like you got a nice setup, and a smokin' deal.

Have fun with it!

The original post was in regards to using the 300 blackout as a supressed hunting rifle. I assumed that meant the use of subsonic ammo. A 220gr 30 cal bullet impacting at 1000 fps or less is not going to expand, and hence my assertion that one is not going to get consistant blood trails if that load is used for a broadside chest shot. We're talking about bullet dia and impact velocity in the realm of the 32 H&R magnum, albeit with a heavier bullet that will have better penetration. A 30 caliber non expanding bullet impacting at 1000 fps into the vitals is in no way shape or form going to be a dramatic killer.

If the discussion is a 120gr expanding bullet at 2000 fps, then it's an entirely different animal. But I think it's important that people who are planning to hunt with a supressed 300 using subsonic ammo have a clear understanding of the rounds limitations.

Another note, subsonic rounds may not make the legal requirements for hunting big game.

Here in Colorado the requirement is 550fpe @ 50 yards if using a handgun and 1000fpe @ 100 yards if using a rifle. The Hornady subsonic 208g AMAX .300 Whisper load (480fpe @ muzzle) fails on both counts.

In fact, no subsonic 220g can meet the requirements for a rifle as the most they can generate and stay subsonic is 619fpe at the muzzle, well below 1000fpe @ 100 yards.

I have a .300 Whisper from J.D. Jones, and I'm not calling the others, "knock offs". Mine is suppressed with the gas block valve for subsonic and full powered loads. The Jones suppressor is pretty heavy and the rig ends up heavier than I would like. I haven't spent that much time with it and don't think I'd want to use it on game of any size. Varmints and 'yotes would be about my limit.

I was frankly a bit disappointed with the weight and stuck it in my safe. One of these days, when I'm between projects, I may take to out and shoot it some more. I load for it and my Dillon 550B .300 Whisper tool head is all set up for 220 gr. Sierras.

DF

I was enamored when it was first announced, if your going to shoot suppressed its probably the way to go, I decided there was nothing I could not kill with a 5.56 and not interested in suppressed shooting anyway and as the world turns want to stay with one common cartridge readily available etc.

The attraction of the whisper/blackout is the ability to use the same bolt and mags as a 5.56. As far as terminal ballistics with subsonic ammo, a 9mm carbine is a much better option with today's 147gr expanding bullets. If you look at supersonic performance, the 125gr loads are comparable to the 7.62x39 which is a fine mid-range deer round.

As the happy new owner of an AR with a .300 Whisper/Blackout upper I�m curious why you think a 9mm/147g in a carbine is better?

Let�s look at some facts, first with the 9mm carbine.

Per http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html, the carbine�s velocity can be estimated:

1090fps = Federal Hydra-Shok fastest recorded velocity (14-15� barrel, longer barrels were slower)
.193 = Calculated Ballistic Coefficient (based on matching Federal�s velocity tables)

Thus we can calculate Velocity, Energy and drop (for a 100 yard zero):
0 yds = 1090fps/388fpe/-1.5�
100 yds = 975fps/310fpe/-0�
200yds = 895fps/262fpe/-35.0�
300 yds = 832fps/226fpe/-113.0�

Now we can look at the .300 Whisper/Blackout using Hornady data for a 16� barrel and substituting a 130g Barnes TAC-X bullet for the 130g Sierra HP (because I don�t have the BC for the Sierra):

2213fps = MV
.366 = Barnes advertised Ballistic Coefficient

So here is the calculated Velocity. Energy and drop (for a 100 yard zero):
0 yds = 2213fps/1414fpe/-1.5�
100 yds = 1952fps/1100fps/-0�
200yds = 1712fps/846fpe/-7.7�
300 yds = 1496fps/646fpe/-27.4�
400 yds = 1310fps/495fpe/-63.8�
500 yds = 1162fps/390fpe/-118.6�

At 500 yards the .300 Blackout still has more velocity and energy than the 147g 9mm load has at the muzzle of a carbine.

A sub-sonic 220g .300 Blackout load has more muzzle energy (508fpe) and a lot more mass than the 147g 9mm load and velocity (1020fps vs estimated 1090fps) is very close.

The.300 Whisper/Blackout can run 168g bullets at 1700fps from a 10� barrel and 190g bullets at 1600fps per Hornady�s 8th Edition. If you need to penetrate heavy clothing, doors, walls or other barriers I�ll go with the extra mass, higher S.D. and higher velocity and maybe a stouter bullet like the TTSX/TAC-X.

So what is it that makes the 147g 9mm carbine load better?

"So what is it that makes the 147g 9mm carbine load better?"

I'd go back and re-read the part about 147gr expanding bullets and especially the subsonic part.

But I do love the enthusiasm of the 300BK crowd...

There ya go.

Amazing how this round got "cool" when AAC got behind it. I'm all for it, by the way. I can see it for what it is and isn't, though.

Thanks fellows, for all the great advise! And yes, my original intent was to find a AR 15 Platform/caliber for Suppressed Hog & Varmit Hunting only Here in Texas. The only caliber requirement here is that it must be a centerfire cartridge of .222 caliber or above.
Texas Parks & Wildlife passed new regulations allowing the use of legal suppressors for any game animal or varmits this year. I guess I might eventually work up a deer load for does without the Suppressor so my nieces & nephews can harvest some venison.
If I am hunting big bucks during the rut here in N.Texas, I prefer my trusty old .264 Win.Mag with a 125gr Nosler Partition. When I want to carry a "light" rifle, I break out my old Winchester Featherweight in 7X57 caliber. It shoots 140gr Sierras like a house on fire with handloads.
Anyhow... Looks like the 300 Whisper will be the way to go instead of the .30 AR cartridge. Guess I will be spending my next pay check on S&W M&P AR in .300 Whisper... I've got plenty of "real" deer rifles. So this new toy will be a strictly suppressed fun gun for hogs & varmints that I see while in my tree blind. It will be nice to elliminate some pigs without spooking the deer...

OK�


We definitely agree on the same bolts and mags but would I add that the ability to use supersonic and subsonic loads with the same gas port setting (i.e. a fixed port) is also an advantage.

We also agree on the use of lighter bullets at supersonic velocities, which are not just comparable to the 7.62x39 but beat it handily, as it does a .30-30 with FP or RN bullets.

That leaves the question of subsonic performance with 147g (or pick your weight) projectiles.

From �Federal HST Duty Ammo�, written by Mike Doyle, published in January, 2011, and available here:
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=208216



Here�s an abstract on �Rise and Fall of the 9mm Subsonic Hollowpoint�, written in 1992 by E. Sanow, a name I think you�ll recognize. The abstract is available here: https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=138913



OK, the Sanow article was written 12 years ago and there are better bullets now. The question remains regarding today�s best subsonic 9mm/147g loads vs. subsonic .300 Blackout/220g versatility and performance. If we look ***ONLY*** at subsonic performance, a 9mm/147g load with today�s best bullets may be a better choice in some applications. I am not, however, anywhere near convinced that such a load in a carbine is better in all cases or even in the majority of cases. They may be great in handguns but I�m old school and run 115g +P+ loads in mine. (I may want to rethink that.)

Back to the carbines, I�d prefer to rely on the heavier mass of the 220g for penetration against a variety of barriers, including multiple barriers (walls and heavy clothing, for example). Since I�m not LE and live in the country, I�m not too worried about over-penetration � shooting bad guys near crowds isn�t a likely scenario. Nor is needing a subsonic round to begin with, which brings up the ***OVERALL*** versatility of the .300 Blackout. A .223 isn�t legal for big game hunting in Colorado while the .300 Blackout is, and that is a more like scenario for me than a need for suppressed or subsonic loads.

For my needs (country living again), a supersonic defense round is preferred, one that will double for varmints and hunting. The Barnes 110g TAC-X looks pretty good and I bought a box of 125g Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets to try. Here are some results from barrier tests with a Barnes 110g TTSX:





Never been a big fan of the 9mm, although I own one and carry it daily in my car, and carry a .380 a lot. That said, I feel best protected when carrying my .45.

In a limited use case, a carbine with 9mm/147 subsonic rounds and newer bullets might be preferred � but in terms of overall versatility I much prefer the .300 Blackout. Let�s face it, the likelihood is that 100% of my shooting will be at the range or in the field and the chances of my needing a subsonic round for defense are vanishingly small. In the event that I ***DO*** need to use the .300 Blackout the last thing I�m going to worry about is whether I�m shooting subsonics or supersonics � but in either event I have confidence it will perform as needed.

A subsonic 147g 9mm generates 360fpe @ 1050fps where a 220g Matchking generates 539fpe at the same velocity. At 100 yards a Hornady XTP is down to 299fpe while the 220g Matchking, at 501fpe, retains 68% more energy. In fact, the 220g Matchking has more energy at 1,000 yards (317fpe) than the 9mm/147g has at 70 yards (314fpe).

Is �with subsonic ammo, a 9mm carbine is a much better option with today's 147gr expanding bullets� really the case? Perhaps in crowded urban areas. While I think they might make fine loads for handguns, I�m not convinced they are any better or even necessarily as good as a subsonic 220g .308� for my more rural needs.

"We also agree on the use of lighter bullets at supersonic velocities, which are not just comparable to the 7.62x39 but beat it handily, as it does a .30-30 with FP or RN bullets"

Since when does a smaller case (300BK) push the same bullet faster than a bigger case (30-30)? No way the 300BK beats the 30-30 when loaded with equal bullets and equal pressures.

So why limit yourself if subsonic isn't in your plans?

TWR -

If you look I qualified the .30-30 with �FP or RN bullets�. They simply loose velocity too fast to keep up with the Blackout at longer ranges. The higher BC of Hornady�s FTX and MonoFlex bullets allow the .30-30 to beat the Blackout. Handloads for the .30-30 can also beat the Blackout in terms of energy delivered out to 300 yards.

I was also thinking, although I didn�t state it, of classic .30-30 rifles like the Winchester �94 and Marlin 336 with factory ammo. You can certainly load the .30-30 to higher pressures if loading for stronger actions.

For example, the Hornady factory 150g RN load has a claimed 1276fps/542fpe @ 300 yards and their 170g FP load has 1186fps/530fpe. By contrast, a Barnes 110g TAC-X launched at 2415fps retains a calculated 666fpe at 300 yards. Hornady�s 110g V-MAX load for the .300 Whisper/Blackout has 1651fps/622fpe at 300 yards. The advantage goes to the .300 Whisper/Blackout at longer ranges.

Who is limiting themselves to subsonic? Certainly not me, although I do plan to try them and expect they will make fun plinkers.

My point is the whole reason for the 300 Whisper was in a supressed gun with subsonic ammo.

Now the 300BK comes along and people are acting like it's a dragon slayer. It is not.

So if you don't have a suppressor, why the 300BK? Why not a 6mm-223, 223WSSM, 6MM RAT, 6WOA, 6.8SPC, 6.5 Grendel, there are several options that fit in an AR-15 and smoke the 300BK.

And having only fired a supressed MP5 in 9MM, a 223 supressed and a 308 Wincheaster supressed, I just don't see why all the hype. There has to be more to it than picking the best bullet in one and the worst in another to compare...

If shooting subsonic and staying below 1,100 fps, the more lead and bullet mass the better.

DF

Which brings me all the way back to my first post on this thread.

If you want a supressed subsonic hunting round then the 458 socom is a much better choice than the 300BK. 350gr @ 1000 fps is going to be an effective killer, not a dragon slayer, but certainly plenty good for broadside shots on hogs and deer.



Yes, you can't use a .223 bolt, but an upper will drop right on and you can use .223 mags.

I don't have anything against the 300bk, and I've been thinking long and hard about getting one. The trouble is, I don't see that for me it would do anything that I couldn't do with a supressed 22rf.

TWR �

It is true there are a bunch of loads that �smoke� the .300 Blackout in terms of velocity and energy. Some of them are certainly better choices for most big game hunting, � just as most of by bolt rifles �smoke� my .30-30 and are better choices for most of my hunting purposes � and yet I still hunt with the .30-30. The point of the .300, though, is versatility.

For my Marlin .45-70 I load a variety of loads. One of my favorites is very economical and subsonic hardcast plinking loads (1097fps for 350g and 1167fps for 300g) that cost me around $2.60 a box last time I checked. My daughters love these, too. On the other end of the spectrum I load 460g hardcast to 1812fps/3353fpe and jokingly call them my �Rhino Blaster� loads, for use against the odd rhinoceros running loose in my backyard (a pretty rare event in Colorado ). These loads are pretty brutal compared to most of my rifles, with about 48foot-pounds recoil, but for slaying dragons these are the loads I would want. My normal hunting loads are 350g at 2183fps/3703fpe. My practice loads use 300g jacketed bullets.

What do I shoot the most of, by far? The low recoil, subsonic cast plinkers by a factor of 10x or more. Versatility works for me. I don�t have a suppressor for the .45-70, either.

As to bullet selection, I�m not the one that brought up 147g bullets in the 9mm. Pick any bullets you like, I�m comfortable with the capabilities of the .300W Whisper/Blackout and will take it any day over anything in 9mm Luger for my purposes.

[Edited to add...]

BTW, If "smoking" something was my first priority I would have chosen an AR10, not an AR-15. My AR-15 was a considered choice as was the 5.56 NATO upper. The .300 Whisper/Blackout upper was just frosting.

Fair enough.

I have shot the .458 Socom, .450 Bushmaster, and the .50 AR. They are all great rounds, and I agree that they would be a good suppressed hog gun. But, there are 3 reasons I ruled them out in my search for a suppressed hog round.
First reason was too much recoil, as my young nieces & nephews will be using this AR for close range Hogging. The second reason was that with the .300 Whisper or ACC / Blackout platform, I can stuff more rounds in a standard AR 20 round mag. I never shoot more than a couple of rounds while I'm hog hunting, but 1- 20 round Mag is all I usually carry. Don't like extra mags or rounds rattling around in my pocket. And, in Texas, there is no restriction on the amount of rounds your rifle holds while hunting. We are not limited to a 4 or 5 round capacity like Colorado and most other states that I hunt in.
The last reason is that I all ready own a Trapddoor & a Marlin Lever gun in 45-70. Both of which are great hog guns even with the original 45-70 load witha 405gr cast bullets. If I really want a badass hog gun, I have some handloads for the Marlin that I'm shooting 425gr Hard cast bullets at 1750 FPS. They hurt on both ends....
One last reason... I was all ready considering a suppressor for my Ruger Scout in .308
And with the right type of .30 cal suppressor adapter, I can use it on both the .300 Whisper & my Ruger Scout. Sort of killing 2 birds with one stone, as the say.
BTW, as to the 9mm debate, I consider it a plinking round at best. I carry a mini/compact 9 as a back-up to my 1911 for concealed carry. I feel naked if I leave the Ranch with just my 9mm. I've killed a couple of hogs with it, but it's defiantly not my 1st choice. It's hard to beat a good ole .45acp or 45colt. If I'm strictly bow hunting & I'm in Bear Country. I carry a 10mm Glock stoked with 15 rounds of 200gr Hornady XTP's going 1350fps.

I have a .300 now set up for home defense with 16" barrel, prism sight, and grip with laser. It's a couple inches shorter than a "tactical" shotgun, with better ergos and higher mag capacity. It's loaded with 220 gr subsonic loads, which function nicely.

The upper is a 1 in 8 CMMG and while my handloads run about 1.75-2 MOA, factory loads are about twice that much I'm debating on buying a better .300 Blk barrel, or buying one of the new S&W's, which have 7.5 twist and 5R rifling. The CMMG does seem slightly better with supersonic loads, but I have not tested them extensively.

Coyote Hunter, I'm glad you like your 300. If I didn't have a 6.8 I'd probably be interested in one myself. You still haven't comprehended my post, though.

That would make a great house gun. Better yet, buy you a 10" barrel and a class III stamp for a more handy house gun.... I'm Definately going with the S&W M&P because of the twist & rifling. Guess I'll have to retire my old 12 ga 18" Side by Side house gun

No mention of pronghorn...I am disappointed.

I think I comprehend it, I just don't agree that "As far as terminal ballistics with subsonic ammo, a 9mm carbine is a much better option with today's 147gr expanding bullets."

A 6.5 or 6.8 upper is probably in my future.

OK OK... My favorite Prairie Goat gun is my 6mm ! Guess I'll have to come visit you. I'm sure you would JUST love to take me hunting in the land of Antelopes...

Fair enough, as well. I'd add that the 9/147 at subsonic speed is operating precisely in the ballistic window for which it was developed and has been extensively tested and proven therein. None of the commonly-used heavies for the .30 were developed for use in a subsonic role with terminal performance in mind. That new 110gr Barnes was developed for the .300, but in the supersonic loads. It looks great in that role, btw. Still, we're purely counting on the heavy .30s tumbling while in tissue for terminal effect. This tumbling may not happen until the projectile is well through the target, if at all. Even then, tumbling alone has been shown to be marginal for terminal effect. We've seen that in the 5.56/7.62x39, etc research and performance over the years.

Check out Outlaw State Bullets. They make custom subsonic expanding bullets in two sizes for .308 caliber rifles. 225 grain .308 bullet thats hollowpoint and another 220 grain round nose expanding at subsonic velocities bullets. I have used them for 3 years and shot a pile of deer with them. They blow big nasty holes out the far side of deer and turn the chest into jello.

That's a bit more interesting. I'll check it out for the .308.

Those look pretty interesting. The 220g spitzer will get some testing along with the 208g A-MAX.

Accurate Arms sent me some .300 Blackout load data that uses AA1680, something I have a bunch of for my Marlin .375 Winchester. That includes data for the 130g TTSX. So now I've got data from Hodgdon, Hornady, Barnes, Accurate and the recommended subsonic load from http://300aacblackout.com/.

has anyone here tried the Cadiz Gunworks "'Econo-Can" supressor?

It's basically an adapter that screws on to the end of the rifle and you then screw on an oil filter. $75 plus the $200 NFA tax. Looks like fun...

http://forum.saiga-12.com/uploads/monthly_09_2010/post-2142-036221300%201285340168_thumb.jpg

I agree with your point and the one I made. When you're subsonic, the more bullet mass, the better. You're taking velocity off the table as the "killer", as in speed kills, so mass is the only way to up the power.

I have suppressed .22 LR's, in fact three guns that will work with the same suppressor. A 220 gr. Sierra, out of the .300 Whisper, does thump'em a lot harder than a subsonic .22LR round...

It just doesn't have the wallop of a big bore, heavy slug at the same speed.

DF

but you have shot more than I have ever seen ......remember

Not to beat a dead horse, but today I received load data from Accurate Arms. They say �1680 is the powder of choice�, which is fortunate for me as I have quite a bit on hand. (It is my �powder of choice� for my Marlin .375 Winchester.) Interestingly, they had a sub and supersonic (barely) load for the Berger 230g TH-OTM bullet.

From my earlier post, here is the data for a subsonic 9mm/147g:

1090fps = Federal Hydra-Shok fastest recorded velocity (14-15� barrel, longer barrels were slower)
.193 = Calculated Ballistic Coefficient (based on matching Federal�s velocity tables)

0 yds = 1090fps/388fpe/-1.5�
100 yds = 975fps/310fpe/-0�
200yds = 895fps/262fpe/-35.0�
300 yds = 832fps/226fpe/-113.0�

Looking at Accurate�s starting (subsonic) load for the 230g Berger TH-OTM bullet:
1106fps
.719 Ballistic Coefficient per Berger

0 yds = 1106fps/625fpe/-1.5�
100 yds = 1067fps/581fpe/-0�
200 yds = 1033fps/545fpe/-29.0�
300 yds = 1004fps/515fpe/-90.5�
400 yds = 977fps/488fpe/-186.1�
500 yds = 954fps/464fpe/-318.6�
1000 yds = 857fps/375fpe/-1584.2�

Granted, this isn�t the load I�d want to be using at long ranges but the 230g Berger does hold its velocity and energy very well. Unfortunately it can�t go much faster, either � 1288fps is the top load. For fun, here�s the stats for that:

0 yds = 1288fps/847fpe/-1.5�
100 yds = 1225fps/767fpe/-0�
200 yds = 1170fps/699fpe/-21.7�
300 yds = 1122fps/643fpe/-68.9�
400 yds = 1080fps/596fpe/-143.2�
500 yds = 1045fps/558fpe/-247.5�
1000 yds = 919fps/431fpe/-1278.2�

Subsonics may be fun but they aren�t what I�ll run if hunting. The Hornady 110g V-MAX, 110g Barnes TAC-X or 125g Ballistic Tip are more likely. Here�s the data for the 110g TAC-X (Barnes H110 data):
.289 = Ballistic Coefficient
0 yds = 2415fps/1424fpe/-1.5�
100 yds = 2141fps/1120fpe/-0�
200 yds = 1885fps/867fpe/-6.0�
300 yds = 1651fps/666fpe/-22.2�
400 yds = 1441fps/507fpe/-50.8�
500 yds = 1266fps/391fpe/-96.8�
1000 yds = 867fps/184fpe/-747.7�

Bullet drop is close enough and the price is right enough that 110g V-MAX loads would make a good practice load to pair with the 110g TAC-X.

The speed of sound is around 1130fps.

Be careful claiming subsonic ammo as it's fastest speed, it has to be below 1130fps.

The 230gr Berger will punch a 30 caliber hole and keep on going.

The 147gr bullet designed to open up at sub sonic speeds will do more damage in flesh.

The new 30cal bullets linked to above make it a moot point and do give the 300BK the lead.

Enjoy your 300BK. Now go shoot the dang thing would ya?

TRW -

Already shot both barrels to test function with the ammo and mags I had available - Hornady 110g V-MAX and Bitterroot 45g FMJ. Probably no more than 20 rounds total, so hardly a torture test.

Probably won't get to the range this weekend due to other priorities, including the Tanner gun show in Denver. Need to get some more .300 brass and bullets, including Hornady 208g A-MAX. Hopefully I can find a reliable subsonic play load for the 208g A-MAX as they are half the cost of the other heavies.

It's a bad time here too, I've had an upper together almost 2 weeks and have yet to shoot it.

I think I/we sometimes get to wrapped up in numbers that don't mean squat. What we need to do is just go out and kill stuff with em and then decide if we like em or not.

to add some random notes about the .300 Blk:

The OAL of factory ammo is around 2.080 or so. I found that my gun ran just fine with the bullet seated out to mag length, say 2.24. That change likely helped the accuracy. So far all I have loaded for it is some 220 Matchkings, but I do have some 110 TTSX to try.

A subsonic 220 Matchking will leave a decent blood when you shoot a deer. Indeed I followed the trail for a while before I watched the deer run over a hill ~200 yards away and disappear on the next ranch over. I believe I hit the deer too high, hence the lost animal, even though I think a .270 would have flattened the animal Expanding bullet or not, based on one data point, placement is critical, with the subsonic loads.

1680 apparently works for both sub and supersonic loads, and is also good for the 7.62x39, so that's what I would probably try first.

Great and succinct summary of the issue. I'd shoot a deer 100y away with an expanding 147 9mm. I would not have confidence in a traditional .30 cal bullet at any range when traveling subsonic. Now, people, possums, coyotes, etc..... sure thing. Game recovery isn't an issue there so no worries.

I'll also disagree somewhat with the assertion that mass is the only factor that can improve terminal performance at subsonic speed. That's why I'd do a .338 Spectre before I'd do a .300 W/BO. Frontal area can contribute to terminal performance when bullets are otherwise similar or the same.

Subsonic expanding bullets make it all more interesting, as I've said.

"but you have shot more than I have ever seen ......remember"

I can never forget how you educated me in the wise ways of the forum, O Great One. I am once again, humbled by your response.

as it should be........