How many crimp their bullets when reloading? I realize there's not much recoil ... just curious.

Never have. Run neck tension as needed plus mostly 100% case volume charges...

YMMV.

Though I"ve only probably gone through around 200,000 rounds give or take in the ARs.

I use the Lee crimp die cause its cheap insurance and doesn't hurt a thing.

Rost, what powder are you running that fills 100% case capacity?

Ditto. I've also used the Dillon taper crimp die.

Me too

Varget, N540 typically do with what I shoot. I don't recall RE RL15 but it seemed close for loads with 75 bthp seated to mag depth of 2.240 oal.

Mind you I may not have been full 100 percent but pretty close.

I"ve run probably 5000 give or take, 75s with TAC and no crimp and shot them in combat matches and never had an issue. I dont' think that was near 100%.

I do IE did when I was still shooting, run moly so that ups your powder charge a bit. FWIW

One of the questions never posed on this subject, many do it just because, but of those, how many have run many thousands of rounds uncrimped vs crimped and ever ran into a problem?

I don't like work hardening my brass any more than I Have to, to start with. And though I've not done any testing, if crimps were to have zero effect on accuracy each shell casing would have to be trimmed to the same exact length each time to get the same release tension from shot to shot.

If I were shooting BR, then I could see it. But not the number of rounds we shot... often give or take 20,000 a year in the later years.

No proof mind you. But then I use the same theory y'all do on it doesn't hurt but I am not sure if I need it.... BR shooters don't crimp, and I"m after accuracy....

I hope my last comment.... brain is running on for some reason...

Those that crimp for ammo thats for SHTF kind of thing, IMHO, if you are not also sealing the primer and the bullet, then you are not doing all you need to.
I'd much rather deal with a setback bullet and a jam, than have powder or primer compromised when I would need it the most.

FWIW I have a bunch of 69 bthp, and 75 bthps loaded up no crimp or sealant and I'd personally risk my life on them performing as is if ever needed.

As I said in another thread, I had 2 357 Sig bullets setback in a Glock but have never had one in an AR.

We have seen accuracy tests posted here where crimped ammo was more accurate. I saw standard deviation go down in my own loads, though that doesn't always equal better accuracy.

It's all about neck tension no matter how you get it.

Neck tension no doubt.

I can't comment on the accuracy with crimped, as noted I've never crimped a 223 round. I've never needed more accuracy than I was already getting.
Though that is kinda a dumb statement but .5 moa or less sufficed.

And I still lean back to the fact if crimps were needed for accuracy, BR shooters would, as a whole.

Wouldn't bother me to shoot crimped ammo or to have to crimp mine though. Just never have crimped any other than revolver loads and taper crimp the ACP..

I know this is correct using a taper crimp die. I've read that is not the case with the Lee FCD, I dunno.

The trim issue is another reason to have a 650 or 1050 toolhead setup with a Dillon carbide size die, a Dillon power trimmer, and a Lyman 22cal M die. This eliminates that worry, 'cause it IS trimmed everytime.

I have run thousands of both. For my 77 gr match loads, I do not, and have never had a problem. For my 55 gr "whatever" loads, I do. Accuracy is apples and oranges, since I take a lot more care in my match loads in other areas than my whatever loads, so I cannot compare the two. As for the Lee FCD, I do not bother trimming those until loads 3-4, since trim length is not critical with them.

The only cartridges I crimp are those used in tubular magazine rifles.

I've got a brand new Lee FCD in .375 H&H. I've never used it in over 600 rounds because I found I didn't need it.

If I need more neck tension, I polish the neck expander ball down a couple of thousands.

Bullet setback, so it doesn't blow up in your face.

Though I haven't run nearly as many rounds through AR's as rost495, I've still run a pile through various AR's without a problem--and never crimped one.

I"ve asked folks to explain, HOW can case length not be critical with a FCD? The longer cases run further into the crimp die, and as a result HAVE to crimp with more pressure? How can a steel fixed die compensate for varying case lengths?

IT may well because I"m not an engineer, but no one has ever been able to explain to me how.

Just like the die that sizes without allowing case growth... it has to push that brass back somewhere, so even if it isn't allowing growth, its not allowing it by pushing it back hence it did grow, and growth equals work hardening and or eventual case seperation.

And how long have you been reloading?

I jumped out of airplanes for 20yrs, something short of 200 jumps. I have a friend who has probably made that many freefalls while too drunk to drive, often without an altimeter. He's still alive.

An AR doesn't have an escape path for gas like a modern bolt-action. It just blows the [bleep] up, usually out the right side of the upper. There is one such upper laying on a table where I work now. We had eight of them grenade all the same time last year, though that was from a bad lot of ammo.

Don't drive like Jeff Gordon...unless you can. I'll crimp my loads.

He has been reloading longer than I, I'd bet.

But the AR is something my wife and I almost slept with for around 15 years straight, as noted up to 20,000 rounds or even more a year depending.

I"ve never seen an AR blow up yet. Doesn't mean they dont. But to say they will when you admit the 8 you reference were from bad ammo, doesn't tell me much.

If you think that controlling neck tension and loading close to 100% density doesn't prevent things, then I offer, how long have you been reloading? And what quality of ARs are you working with?

Me.... I haven't reloaded very long actually. IIRC I started around 1976.

And I"ve been around a LOT of ARs fired in matches, has to be millions of rounds... especially when you have 250 firing points at Perry, and up to 7 relays shooting on a given day at times... not to mention that we shot almost every weekend, and sometimes twice... and I doubt that I"ve ever shot an 88 shot match that had less than 15 competitors in it....
I still have not seen an AR blown up.

But it could be because of the quality of the guns, the knowledge of the reloaders. And knowing what I do, I'd venture a guess that probably 10% of that ammo was crimped.

I can say though, on your side, that I don't really see what a crimp can hurt, unless you are after the last accuracy.

But to me they are just like weighted bolt carriers. If you build the gun right, you use a standard carrier. If you don't, you have to put a bandaid(weight) in there.

Much the same as my opinion of crimps.

My point Rost is that you and MD are proven commodities as reloaders and shooters. Most shooters are not. I'll wager close to a million dudes are gearing up to reload, as we speak, most of 'em for an AR. A few read our rants. Advising not to crimp is akin to my drunken skydiver buddy saying that altimeters are optional.

I am a drunken sky diver and I crimp my loads!

Jeff, I never crimp a barnes bullet but I do crimp traditional bullets. All my cases are trimmed to length. Interesting to me is that it does not seem to effect my accuracy, but I don't shoot at 600 yards.

Jeff the Lee crimp die is more of a collet than a taper crimp, if that helps explain it.

As for all the billion rounds you've seen fired without issue, it only takes one...
And as I've also said here before, if you know what you're doing, you won't have an issue but what about these new folks who just bought their AR and are now wanting to load? If you're gonna say crimping is not needed, then at least explain how to keep up with case annealing so bushing dies will give the same neck tension to all cases.

I'll be the first to admit, setback is uncommon but like I said it only takes one...

You have to truly deep seat a bullet to drastically increase pressure. I'm not an engineer or ballistician, but I'd bet you would have to have other factors other than simple bullet setback to blow up an AR.

I realize this link is with a .30-06, but it should apply, simply because we tend to try and get as close to the lands as possible.

Distance off the lands vs. pressure

for any auto action I'll crimp the rounds..

bolt actions never


The Lee factory crimp dies work very well.. Also the RCBS taper crimp seating dies work well.

Is this deep enough?

Kinda why I'm curious ... I would imagine a cartridge in a 300 WBY would feel more "g's" than a .223/5.56 would feel. But, hell, I've been wrong "once" before

Oh I don't say its wrong to crimp, but done right, there is no need to crimp.

I kinda figure if you are not smart enough to research and understand the hows and whys instead of just doing... you don't need to be doing.

About like your skydiver without the altimeter. Its not that I think he needs an altimeter, its that he has no business jumping period.

Oh Yeah, ultramax ammo... one brand we knew for years to stay way the heck away from.....crimp would not help those that much, they needed a smaller neck period.

Wrong, that guy is to parachutes what Barsness is to rifles.

Again, what I'm trying to say is, as a reloader, you've gotta start somewhere, and maybe reloading for an AR isn't a beginner proposition, but that isn't going to stop a lot of folks.

Then I guess I am to ARs what Barsness is to rifles and you are right then. Grins.

There isn't hardly a thing different about an AR than any other load. Keep the right neck tension, and load dense. Dense loads are generally the most accurate.

If in doubt put a crimp on em.

personally i wouldn't waste my time crimping for the AR, but i only use my AR's for hunting , if using for combat i would crimp

First let me go back and say, crimping is not needed if neck tension is sufficient. Plain and simple.

I don't know why hunting ammo would be treated any differently than combat ammo but I only load for myself and don't shoot others reloads so it doesn't matter to me how anyone else loads, crimp or not.

What I have seen on the net over the last 15 or so years is probably a dozen unexplainable "kabooms". In all that I have followed ammunition has been the culprit when the guns were sent back for examination. Without fail if factory ammo was used, the ammo company replaced the gun.

You can't double charge, a chance of the wrong powder isn't likely and bullet setback has come up time and time again. We probably will never know for sure what causes them but I don't know where else to lay the blame. So I'm just guessing.

I keep track of certain brass but most of mine is loaded in mags and stashed around. I rotate these mags and when I get home I clean, size, trim and prime the spent brass, then throw it into bags to be loaded another day. I can't begin to guess which case has been shot twice or ten times. I load on a single stage press and pay attention to seating pressure. If I have one seat too easily, I toss it. But the rest of them get a crimp with the Lee die and I've not had a single issue with any bullet, cannelure or not, that has made me say if only I hadn't crimped...

Piece of mind, lower SD, better powder burn, accuracy that anyone could live with and possibly even better performance on critters with "target" bullets, real or perceived, are reason enough for me.

Now I'm on my way to Texas to see Jimmy Buffet and the rest of the parrot heads. Have a great weekend!

Hey, Jimmy got blown out the other night in Austin I heard. I bet thats a good show though!

So has anyone seen setback with a crimped round?

I wouldn't even THINK to crimp a hunting round. Just never have seen the need, so thats how I ended up no crimp for M1 carbines, M1 Garands, M14s and M1As and then the AR platform.

Have fun, have a safe trip!

In the case of AR's firing 223/5.56 I match the powder with bullet length to get a medium heavy compression of the powder, you couldn't drive my bullets deeper in the cases with a hammer.

A nice inside/outside deburring of the cases is all I do.

Gunner

Oh my now I am not much of an AR guy so..... but do know I would have to be VERY drunk to jump out of a good airplane parachute or not

You guys say that neck tension is paramount. What is for to guarantee proper neck tension? Seems to me that is dependent solely on the die and expander ball. ???

I've always verified sizing die setup with a go- no go gage, but I don't suppose it speaks to neck tension. I've crimped nearly everything but would like to know I'm loading safely without it.

Brass hardness also plays a part in neck tension, take a case that needs to be annealed and it won't retain the same dimension the die left it in.

Paying careful attention to seating pressure is paramount either way.

Lean on the cartridge hard with the bullet against the reloading bench. If the bullet doesn't move, you have enough tension. You can also use a hammer type bullet puller. If it takes more than a couple of real hard hits to dislodge the bullet, you have enough tension.

If you don't have enough tension, chuck the expander ball in a drill press and polish it down a couple of thousands using emery cloth. Another advantage of polishing the ball is that by removing the machining marks it passes through the neck much smoother.

As mentioned, a case full of powder helps.

Exactly. A firm hold by the neck itself has more to do with holding a bullet in place than crimping.

A sized case with an inside neck diameter of .222 is usually plenty, but you can go smaller if you're nervous.

Even with good neck tension I crimp anyway it does not seem to hurt anything. I do not crimp barnes bullets but do crimp everything else, just because.

Why don't ya crimp Barnes?

RE neck tension, I use bushings. .242 to .244. For almost exclusively LC brass.

And I actually have enough with any of them, but test accuracy via neck tension at 600 and do what it tells me to.

From a new box of Winchester white box, 62 grain FMJ. Just for conversation.

brand new in the box from the factory...I shall continue to crimp!

Maybe rost and mule deer should give lessons to Winchester.

Proof that neck tension might be more important than faulty crimping....

I think they forgot to crimp that one, don't see any marks anyway.

bullet set back explosion?? You decide...

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=412136

It proves that nothing is idiot proof after reading what the OP went through to get his 9mm to shoot what he thinks was a .38 Super.

That was a 38 super mag as in magazine not a 38 super round in a 9mm chamber.

he just chambered a 9mm several times and pushed the bullet back.

I miss-read it. He does say he had multiple FTF's before he dropped it in the chamber. He should have noticed setback of the bullet.

Most definately but in this case stupid shows how high pressures can run when a bullet is set back far enough.

I've seen crimped ammo get set back, usually due to magazine problems.

For semi-auto handloads, I crimp. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die. It helps secure the bullet and improves accuracy.

Here is what Sierra has to say about Neck Tension on a service rifle.

Neck Tension

When we stop to consider the vigorous (read, downright violent) chambering cycle a loaded round endures in a Service Rifle, it becomes pretty clear it suffers abuse that would never happen in a bolt-action. This is simply the nature of the beast. It needs to be dealt with since there is no way around it.

There are two distinctly different forces that need to be considered: those that force the bullet deeper into the case, and those that pull it out of the case. When the round is stripped from the magazine and launched up the feed ramp, any resistance encountered by the bullet risks having it set back deeper into the case. Due to the abrupt stop the cartridge makes when the shoulder slams to a halt against the chamber, inertia dictates that the bullet will continue to move forward. This is exactly the same principle a kinetic bullet puller operates on, and it works within a chamber as well. Some years ago, we decided to examine this phenomenon more closely. During tests here at Sierra�s range, we chambered a variety of factory Match ammunition in an AR-15 rifle. This ammunition was from one of the most popular brands in use today, loaded with Sierra�s 69 grain MatchKing bullet. To conduct the test, we chambered individual rounds by inserting them into the magazines and manually releasing the bolt. We then repeated the tests by loading two rounds into the magazine, chambering and firing the first, and then extracting and measuring the second round. This eliminated any potential variation caused by the difference between a bolt that had been released from an open position (first round in the magazine) and those subsequent rounds that were chambered by the normal semi-automatic operation of the rifle. Measuring the rounds before chambering and then re-measuring after they were carefully extracted resulted in an average increase of three thousandths (0.003") of forward bullet movement. Some individual rounds showed up to seven thousandths (0.007") movement. Please bear in mind that these results were with factory ammunition, normally having a higher bullet pull than handloaded ammunition.

To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension.

Here is a little test done using the Lee Factory Crimp die. Three different rifles, three different cartridges, same results, Improved Accuracy.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

Here is just one of Many accuracy tests I have done with the Lee Factory Crimp die. Stock Colt AR-15, Cheap Midsouth Varmint Nightmare bullets, 10 rounds each target, 100 yards.



It is inevitable in these crimp-vs-no crimp discussions that someone will bring up the Benchrest shooters and how they do not crimp. This is of course Apples to Oranges at best. The BR guys don't shoot cheap Midsouth bullets and they don't shoot off the shelf $900 rifles either, so what they do or don't do with their high $$$ equipment has Nothing to do with the average Joe with his average equipment.

this average Joe will crimp his bullets, anyone else can do what they want. I also have found what I believe to be better consistency with crimped 65 grain SGK bullets and 75 grain Swift S2 bullets, so far!

Still interesting that of the couple ( well maybe its a few more) folks that I know that have shot service rifle AR even before we started and continue to this day, almost all do not crimp.

And if you think that BR shooters have high dollar guns, don't discount CMP guns.... they are not run of the mill ARs for sure. I've had some that would scare the hell out of .25 moa at 600 yards....

Never mind that what sierra did, was a one of test, vs at least a couple of us firing more rounds in a year than they do in their tests.

But as I've noted for folks that want insurance and don't pay attention to neck tension( I also use it for accuracy tweaks) or powder choices, then crimping may well be the same bandaid that weighted carriers have been.

But then again how many folks FL size/ with neck bushings for tension and actually test how primers, powder charges, seating depth and neck tension affect accuracy, off a bench at 600 yards and in 600 yard prone only matches? I'm lucky in a tiny way, that I have a 600 yard bench on my property and out my back door.

It's also interesting how those that preach the evils of crimping and use the BR comparison have actually never tried the Lee Factory Crimp die. No first hand experience with the die, just talk about how bad it is.

I should add to, in sierras defense, that the average joe doesn't understand reloading nearly enough and really should crimp.

There is a reason that factory ammo normally is crimped too, just to cover all the bases.

In fairness I've never actually said it was evil. I've simply said if everything that you do in reloading was understood, and done correctly for the situation, then crimping as not going to be needed.

While I have never used a lee factory crimp, that is true, I do have a few of the friends mentioned above that have to try every last new thing that comes out, even if their ammo is good as is, and they didn't use crimped ammo for long.

Regardless, anything, neck tension included, for it to be as repeatable as it can be, the cases have to remain the same length for the tension to be repeatable and not many folks i know that shoot AR trim every time they reload.

Even though I cannot figure out how a LFC die can supposedly crimp the same amount on a short trimmed or a long case, its really a moot point because most folks crimp for reliability and not accuracy.

Since I no longer compete, I'll give you this much, IF I ever can find time I"ll buy a crimp die and play wiht my match guns once just to see.

My negative reason on top of all this is its one more thing that work hardens the neck of the brass more than you would by simply sizing, and that may be too anal of an opinion. Especially since I anneal every 4-5 loadings.

Good info. What expander plug size do folks recommend for .308's?

I would think that a competition shooter would be more concerned with accuracy then case life, but that's just me.

Did you read through this accuracy test?
http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

Hands down crimping is more accurate. You should see the difference in my 41 mag. You do know it is a big factor of burn rate in powder.

Accuracy is related to neck tension by far. Thats why I'm concerned. Crimping affects a TINY portion of the neck. Neck sizing correctly affects the complete neck.

Anyone that shoots enough, knows that both accurayc and case life are important, it takes some work to get accurate cases, I don't want to shoot em a few times and toss em at that point. Generally good for National type matches for 5 firings, more normal stuff for another 5 like state/regional matches and then another 10 or so for practice short range stuff like 200 yard or 300 yard only matches.

I looked at your link. First I've never been impressed with accurate's sight. If you can find me a similar one from 6mm br I'd like to see that.

But it notes that ES and SD doesn't change much. That tells me that consistency is not really becoming better.

And then who said that they worked on neck tension for the uncrimped rounds?

bottom line, both are searching for the ideal tension for accuracy. But the crimping folks think is for safety more so. As noted those that have shot enough have seen crimped only bullets moved on chambering. And those that pay correct attention to neck tension generally come up wiht better results.

RE comments on revolver rounds. I never found a neck sizing way to control revolver rounds so I do crimp on those, but if I found a way to work neck tension I'd sure try that. but then those are such short range rounds, generally 100 yards or less its not that critical to accuracy that a crimp can substitute nicely.

Has anyone compared taper crimping to the Lee FCD in accuracy or holding power? I have both and though I normally don't crimp, I have started doing it for the AR. With either one, I can detect a difference in contact during the crimp even with freshly trimmed cases. Makes me wonder if the crimp is uniform. One thing, the Lee FCD will put a groove in a bullet that has no cannelure. That would seem to be a detriment to accuracy to me.

The problem is that what is good for a benchrest rifle isn't necessarily good for an auto rifle or even a bolt action sporter.

Because of tight necks and chambers, etc, crimping may be detrimental to the accuracy of a benchrest rifle. But that doesn't mean it is bad for all the other rifles out there. And that doesn't even mean that it can't improve the accuracy of other rifles.

One time I spent alot of effort trying to get a bolt action sporter to shoot better. I weighed charges, sorted cases, neck turned cases, spun cases, reamed primer pockets, etc. Turned out that NONE of that made the rifle provably any more accurate at 200 yds than just dumping a charge of W748 and topping it with a 52gr Matchking. In fact, I think that neck turning actually hurt the accuracy.

yes. It helps or does not hurt.

Maybe you could have avoided all that by just crimping with the LFCD and been done. Just think how much time and money you could have saved. Not to mention how many more matches you could have won. But we will never know as you have no experience with the LFCD, just words and theory.

Jeff, here is one for $30! I did not believe it myself before I tried it.

http://www.amazon.com/Lee-Precision...r=8-1&keywords=lee+factory+crimp+die

Jimmy

I can get em for that and less. Just that I have my solutions done with no need for crimping. So no need. Thanks for the link though.

Steve
I'll sure pass that along to all my High Master friends and if I ever start up shooting again, it'll be 1000 yards with the service rifle AR15 in 223 with 90 jlks, I'll be sure to grab a crimp die at that time and see what I can manage with it. It may well save me hours of work and lots of research trying to do it where I got more bearing surface on the bullet to control tension areas vs a small ring. And that ring then on the bullet probably won't affect the BC in flight either. But then again we are talking shooting matches vs just plinking for most folks.

PS has anyone run the X die to limit case growth. We found from others, IE again not me, just taking the word of top ranked folks shooting that I also trust, that it was not worth the effort.

But there may be more data out there now.

I would agree with that assessment.

I pretty much run mine as a "normal" die. It mashes down the case mouth, so you have to chamfer the case anyway. Tumbling/polishing does the same thing. Since I trim & chamfer in 1 operation, it saves me nothing. With a Gracey or similar, I pretty much just trim them after every sizing.

Ah, sarcasm, Gotta love it when it's tit-for-tat.

No thats not sarcasm at all. Its the truth.

I'll certainly try it. For all the junk that Lee puts out, there are some almost gems out there. One powder measure is such, at 19 bucks or so IIRC, its a plastic POS like a lot of their stuff but damn thing does better at big stick powder than my expensive ones.

Then there is the primer tool..... I've got better ones, but ran them for years, just got them to send 2-3 of the parts that bent/broke all the time, ahead of time so in a batch of 2-3000 rounds i wasn't stopped cold by a bend or break.

And so the crimp die may be an ok thing too. Will never know until I run it. I've never had a need to because the correct way to solve the issues are other methods as I've continually noted. But if I start up again, that will be time to compare crimped and none. I've NO idea how I'd do a fair apples to apples at this point, but will figure that out later.

Right now costs and components are stupid... and I'm still a few years out from being able to have the time to play again some. And then I"ll have to cover the vision issue first again.

But if I get that far I'll certainly look at it.

In the meantime I'll talk with active shooters again. Ones that are actually capable of seeing changes. Not just run of the mill and see if I can get some of them to play again.

I'd have to see about the crimp ring bothering the BC of the bullet, I can't recall ever seeing the drag photos of one with a crimp ring around it. But then tip damage doesn't do as much as many think, well up close it doesn't. Out further it is very obvious.

I do think that damage to the boattail is the WORST overall place to do that, so its very possible that the damage a crimp has to a bullet may not be that much.

AND to be very lucky, I have a goal at 1000 yards, and if you are ever able to see variables, 1000 will show them pretty quickly.