I recently purchased a Noveske Rogue Hunter and am getting the components that I don't already have to reload for it. I've read about the potential to pierce primers with certain brands. Are there certain types (brands) of small rifle rifle primers for the 223 cartridge that you wouldn't use in an AR 15? The rifle will primarily be used for hunting, target shooting and plinking.

Thanks

I personally will never use WWSR or Fed SR primers in the AR. Have had slam fires with the Feds and others have with the WW brass colored( new) primers.

YMMV. I"ve got a bit more than average years and rounds on the AR than a lot of folks and the above is simply what I"ve settled on.

I'd avoid Winchester

Jeff and Barry:

Thanks for that information. I just looked and what I have on hand are Remington 6.5 and 7.5 (Bench Rest); CCI No. 400 and Fed GM205M (Match).

Is there a primer that you consider the "best" or most appropriate for this application (223 in an AR 15)?

Thanks

CCI M41.. burn rate like 450s that I used before them. Harder cup. Made for the semi's.....

I use a lot of 7.5s though. ANd lots of the 450s.

Not much of anything else.

logger -

Of what you've got, I'd use the Rem 7-1/2s. Yeah, benchrest, but also, as far as I could tell, the hardest, thickest cup among any "non mil-spec" primer. I've pretty much quit using anything else for any application in the .223 family.

Tom

I like CCI450, Rem 7 1/2 and Wolf/Tula magnum cup primers and their magnum cup & charge primers.

Never had a problem with CCI 400s either, except they are softer and you have to be careful about pushing them. Otherwise they make accurate loads.
I have some Rem 6 1/2 primers, but have followed mfg directions and only used them for less intense cartridges. I don't experiment if I have good info to use.

Haven't used the Federals or the CCI mil specs.

Basically, I use whatever I can find cheapest.

I got a bunch of Feds, but am careful on closing bolt. They are sensitive I had a 358 win that had intermittent firing issues due to incorrect chamber. However it would always ignite a federal

I have been using CCI without issue.

Uh-oh. I just bought a bunch of those because that's all there is around here.

The Fed 205M's are a little thicker cupped than standard Federals but not as thick as the CCI41's or Rem 7.5's.

I've ran thousands of the Fed 205m's without issue but prefer the CCI 41's or 7.5's. No need to take chances.

I've got a BUNCH of WW, I'll live dangerously.

My adventure with AR15 primers is discussed under the Gunsmithing thread. Here's the summary:

CCI large rifle primers are .027" thick, which is about what you need for loads in the 60 KPSI region. CCI small rifle primers are .020" thick, and are designed for less pressure. CCI magnum small rifle primers are .025" thick, and stand the higher pressures much better.

With CCI small rifle primers, if your firing pin and hammer spring are right (not too long, not hitting too hard) you can run CCI small rifle primers at 223 pressures. Be aware that some AR15s have relatively tight chambers, and will produce a bit of extra pressure. Your best check is a chronograph.

If you are running 5.56 loads, you need some kind of primer that is thicker than the CCI small rifle.

It's not really a piercing of the primer, either. At lower loads, you'll get the classic hemispherical dent on the primer. When you're a grain or so over max, the hemisphere collapses, leaving the primer nearly flat, with a wrinkle around it. Go up another grain, and the dent will turn inside-out, and extrude into the firing pin hole. This extrusion is weak around its base, and often breaks off, leaving a round hole.

Here's a chart of primer cup thicknesses:

I think the main problem everyone is concerned with is slam fires.

Good article on pressures and primers.
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

That chart is nice, but it doesn't tell anything about alloys & their properties such as ductility and hardness. The .020-.021" primers are not the same.

WHICH standard Federal? I think a little clarification is needed.

The Federal 205 is their small rifle, they don't make what we'd call a magnum small rifle primer. The 205M designation is for the MATCH version. They are not different in construction, the only difference is the match version is more carefully screened for consistency. (This according to Federal.)

If that's the "standard Federal" you're referring to, then by their information, you are mistaken.

OTOH, in older days, Federal listed the #200 primer for both small pistol magnum and for small rifle use. It's akin to the Remington 6-1/2, good for lower pressure small rifle cartridges like the .25-20, .218 bee, .22 hornet, etc. NOT meant for the higher pressure .222 family. Because of this confusion they no longer list the 200 as a small rifle primer at all.

If this is what you meant by "standard", you're dead on.

Tom

Federal 200 are thinner cupped than the 205 Match according to James Calhouns chart I linked to.

Didn't even know they made a regular 205. Sorry for the confusion. But then again, Winchester told me their new brass colored primers were the same as the old silver ones.... I use CCI #41's.

No worries. We're only confused 'cause the manufacturers confused us. I think I still have both 205s and 205Ms.

My only rifle feeding on SR primers right now had issues. It had a weak spring which apparently allowed the firing pin to be pushed back up the bolt causing the primers to develop a "nipple" that extruded up the firing pin hole and sometimes pierced. Once I realized what the problem was, I had the bolt core replaced with a GreTan unit 'cause I thought the tip of the firing pin might have been eroded. Being a fan of overkill I also had the gunsmith replace the GreTan spring with an extra power spring. And I switched to Remington 7-1/2s for the thicker cup and (at least nominally) match consistency.

That may be overkill, subsets of the solution might have been adequate, but before I realized what the problem was, I'd destroyed THREE different Jewell HVR triggers, at $225 each, because the gas venting down the bolt body from the pierced primers smashed the sear surfaces together and crumpled them, and in that context, overkill on a solution is just fine by me.

Anyways, I have a few leftover WSRs, a few CCI, a few Federal 205s and 205Ms, but right now I'm only shooting Rem 7-1/2s. When I someday buy another rifle that needs 'em, I'll try the others.

The Fed 200s would probably be my first choice for a .22 Hornet or the like. Lot of people have experimented with small pistol primers rather than the recommended small rifle. I think they'd be good. I used a lot of them years ago in .357 mag loads that today are way over book max though they were recommended at the time. They were great in that application. I had a 4" blued GP100 that would put 6 170 grain Sierra JHCs over 16 grains of 296 lit with the Fed 200s into quarter inch center to center 25 yard groups, in other words, basically there was no variation in load, the only variation was in my aiming consistency. The little SOB had a mean kick for a full weight .357, cool shock wave, too.

Uh .. oops. Sorry for the long-winded ramble. I get a mite carried away sometimes.

Tom

It's good to explain as thorough as you can, I was in a hurry when I replied and you see how that went

I should probably stick to one thing at a time, been working on loads for a 204 and a 22-250ai. Last night I loaded up some test loads using 204 weights, was mighty surprised when the chrono read 27something instead of 34something...

Anyway I use the Rem 7.5's in my 204 and the 41's in my AR's but the last store I saw 41's at wanted $45/1000 so I may switch to 7.5's if they truly have gone up.

Your problem may not be a weak spring.

Given the area on the primer face that the primer dent occupies, it has to withstand a force of about 200 pounds at a peak cartridge pressure of 60 KPSI. Of course, at 50 KPSI the force is less.

In any event, it would take a really fierce hammer spring to keep the primer dent from turning inside out.

Your firing pin may be a little on the long side, but probably mostly the root of the problem is too much pressure for a thin primer.

Powder Valley has the CCI 41 in stock for $38.00/1000.

Jim

I've been using Tula primers with no problem in my AR since last year. No issues. Oh did I mention the 40% plus cheaper?

I use Remington 7.5 BR Primers

IME CCI's are the hardest, and Winchesters are the softest.
I typically run CCI BR-4's in my AR.

With pistol primers, I've always heard the cups run, from hard to soft:
1) CCI
2) Win
3) Federal

I don't know if this holds true with rifle primers.

I thought pistol primers would not stand up to the pressure in the 223?

Started out using Federal 200, and had no problems. Bought a brick of Wolf Small Rifle Magnum primers, and are using those now. No problems with them either.
I don't load a lot of .223 though, maybe a couple hundred a year. The only load I use is with a Winchester 64 grain SP over H335 powder. It's a hunting and HD load.

I have a bunch of Wolf Small Rifle Magnum Primers. Where to they rank for use in an AR?

Thanks,

Richard

Never heard of any issues with Wolf primers.

Had a gun counter guy tell me yesterday that Rem 7.5 BR primers had a soft cup so the light triggers from a bench rest gun would ignite them.