Antelope Sniper asked for my opinions on gas systems a few days ago and I thought it might be better to just start a new thread to talk about it.

Before I start I've gotta explain where I'm coming from. Most of my shooting is in competition, so what I need from an AR might be different than somebody else. But because how my rifle runs can make the difference between winning and losing or between going home with a prize that will pay for more ammo and going home empty handed, I pay more attention to different details of my AR than somebody who shoots with different goals than me would. It's not that one type of shooting is better or worse than another, it's just that different kinds of shooting demand different things from a gun.

So some of this may be applicable to you and some may not. Take it for what it's worth.

In general, with a 14.5" barrel a carbine system will run whatever ammo you want to feed it. A 14.5" mid-length barrel may or may not function on weaker .223 ammo (depending on the manufacturer and what gas port size they used and what buffer you have). BCM is known for making very smooth shooting 14.5" middies. I've shot one and with an H2 and VLTOR A5H2 buffer and it was incredibly smooth shooting. But the BCM barrels may not function with the weaker .223 ammo.

In a 16" barrel I would definitely go with a mid-length gas system. I just can't see any reason not to do it. It'll reduce the pressure sent to your bolt carrier group and keep unnecessary wear off of your bolt.

In an 18" barrel go rifle gas. Again, I can't see a reason not to. I shoot an 18" rifle gas barrel, along with a lot of friends, and we've never had a problem with them not functioning because of a lack of gas. There's a reason that competitive shooters are all using 18" rifle gas guns....they've got enough gas to work, but not so much that they beat you up.

Which brings up something worth mentioning. When I talk about the recoil on an AR I'm not talking about what you felt the first time you fired your dad's deer rifle. I'm talking more about recoil impulse than actual felt recoil. Most people probably wouldn't notice the difference in recoil between a 16" carbine gun and an 18" rifle gun. But if you look through your scope and shoot offhand at 50 yards you'll see a difference between the two.....You won't FEEL recoil, but you'll SEE it. That's why it's so important to competitive shooters. You've gotta be able to see where you're hitting right now or where you're going to be shooting next, but you've gotta be able to watch what's happening through your scope. And if your gun is jostling and coming off target with each shot you're going to be slower than the next guy. I posted some videos of a match I shot with DocRocket last weekend. If you watch closely, you'll see the muzzle of his AR bouncing with each shot and you'll see that mine barely moves. It's not that mine is better than his, mine is just built with a different purpose. But just imagine looking through a scope on each gun...one will be bouncing off target with each shot and one will stay on target. Which one will be faster?

So none of this might matter to you. If you're shooting super fast at 7 yards, you'll probably never notice the difference. If you're shooting coyotes one or maybe two at a time you might not notice. But if you're firing multiple rounds on a single target passed about 50 yards or making a lot of transitions between targets you'll definitely see the benefit of a smoother gas system. I can watch my hits through my scope on long range shots and make windage-elevation adjustments as needed that I could have never done with my old 16" carbine barrel.

But everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. Some manufacturers will make sure their guns run with the weakest ammo on the market and will accomplish that by simply putting a larger gas port in the barrel. Not all "mid-length" or "carbine" barrels are created equally.

A lot of folks overlook the role that buffers play in the whole system. If your gun is getting too much gas you can slow the BCG group down and smooth out the recoil impulse with a heavier buffer. If your buffer is too heavy though your BCG won't move back far enough to strip off fresh rounds from the mag or lock back on an empty magazine. Once again, it's a balancing act. I'm using a VLTOR A5 buffer system that allows you to use a rifle length spring on a collapsible stock. I've switched that A5 lower and a lower with a standard carbine buffer back and forth on the same upper before and there's a noticeable difference in how smooth the gun runs. For anybody who cares, the "mil-spec" Colts have an H buffer in them. Most guns will run fine with an H2 buffer since they've usually got more gas than they need. I've switched to an H3 on that VLTOR system and haven't had any issues with regular .223 or 5.56 ammo on 16" mid and 18" rifle barrels. If you want to check, your buffer will be marked on its end and you can see what weight it is by just opening up the upper-lower. If it's blank, it's a carbine buffer (the lightest). Otherwise it'll be marked "H", "H2", "H3". If you're stuck with a carbine gas barrel and want to make some changes to your gun, the buffer is a $30 and 5 minute change to make. Move from a carbine buffer to an H2 during a trip to the range, firing one right after the other, and I think you'll like what you find. The gun just seems "smoother".

These are some general rules of thumb that you can use when buying a new rifle, they're definitely what I look for. The BCG does all the work in the gun, don't beat it up with more gas than you have to.

Very nice Blue!
Be nice if we could get this stuck up top...

The current Guns and Ammo has an article on carbine vs. mid-length gas systems with the pros of the mid-length listed.

So if you have a 16" barrel and a carbine gas system, what buffer would you run?

Yesterday in a fit of abject idiocy I tried to shoot a 25 yard 8x8 inch target with my colt 6720 aim point as fast as I could with 25 rounds of federal XM193. What I accomplished was to get my barrel too hot to touch. The gun bounced all over the place. Other than screwing on a muzzle brake or a heavy barrel is there nothing else that would help it? I hit the target 6 times.

I am thinking nothing but a brake. Dumb question!

i love posts like this with lots of info so i can pick and choose what i figure will work best for me....thanks for the info Blue....

A good sling......

Great Post Blue.

Well done and excellent job pointing out the smoothness. For me it was like using different powders or bullet weights in pistols, it might be the same power factor but one can be much smoother than another.

I have seen the powder/pistol relationship too.

If I ever get back to finishing my distinguished pistol badge you can get I"ll be trying to figure out what powder has smoother cycles than others in either 45 or 9mm

A lot depends on the size of gas port they drilled but I run an H2 on my Colt carbine. An H3 might be better but only the gun can tell you for sure.

That's the problem with "hobby" guns (for lack of a better word) they have to port em large enough to run the weakest 223 ammo out there. When you switch to 5.56 full pressure loads, the things are way over gassed.

And no buffer is gonna keep you on target without running a brake.

What he said. I was gonna ask who made the barrel and what buffer you have now.

I've got an H3 on my 16" mid right now. I'd skip straight to at least an H2 if you want to really see a difference. But it's hard to say because it also depends a lot on your gas port size (how much gas is getting to the chamber) and what ammo you're shooting (how much gas is being generated).

Couple of things Jimmy...

Yeah, a heavier barrel and brake are what you're gonna need for a job like that. Your problem is the muzzle rise. A brake will take all that gas leaving the barrel and direct it in a way to keep your muzzle flat.

I use a Surefire brake, but Jerry Miculek makes a brake that works very well and is pretty cheap if you just want to try one (around $40 I think).

Another thing that will really help is to put a longer rail on it. I have 15" rails and use the whole rail to shoot the gun. If you get your support hand out near the end of the rail and hang on to it like you mean it, you'll be able to control the gun a lot better.

But keep in mind that there's only so fast you're gonna get that gun. It's just not made for what you were trying to do. You can put a supercharger and street tires on a Jeep but you're not going to turn it into racecar.

I don't know how fast I could hit an 8" square at 25 yards, but with my competition gun it'd be faaaast. Another thing to think about...Just shoot slower. I could hit that square pretty fast, but not as fast as I could pull the trigger. At some point you're gonna reach the mechanical limits of the gun. There's just so much that comes into play. You could also put on 40 pounds of upper body muscle....It'll help you shoot and the ladies will like it too. (I'm just gonna keep my brake, it's much less work that being in shape).

LMAO

So I should have put this in the first post, I'm thinking of more stuff that I could've added.

Something to try if you start changing to heavier buffers....
Remember that if you put a heavier buffer in you'll be making it harder for the bolt carrier group to move to the rear. You can make it so heavy that the BCG won't move far enough back to eject the empty brass and / or pick up another round from the mag.

If everything is running fine with your new buffer be sure to also make sure the BCG will lock back on an empty magazine. That'll make sure that the BCG is getting enough gas to move as far back as it needs to. Just load one round and fire it and see if the BCG locks back.

If you use different kinds of magazines, try them all. And try it with the different ammo that you regularly shoot. Generally, if it'll lock back with the weakest ammo (that's generating the least amount of gas pressure) you shoot it'll be fine with everything else too.

I just realized that this translates to YOUR GUN SUCKS AND YOU'RE HOLDING IT WRONG!!!!!!!!!

Blue, That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Thanks, I really appreciate you taking the time to write it up.

will dorito's, big mac's and Sam Adams help with the body mass stuff?

Did not take it that way! I can plug the target with the first shot, then shoot some more but just not at a round a second! I like the 6720 with aimpoint it fulfills my requirements for something more appropriate than a pistol.

Maybe in a closed-minded discussion, think it reads more like trying to corner a Jeep like a Camero...different tools for different applications...and JP seems like a open-minded guy.

Lol, good. It certainly wasn't meant that way.

This is an intelligent conversation with facts from first hand experience! My shooting and use is casual, hunting, and "messing around". Yesterday we were just shooting all kinds of stuff, .380's, Ruger #3 in 30-40 Craig, an old Colt SA army model that someone's grandad used as a sheriff in Oklahoma, 22LR's, 223's and my new Smith 308. I wish I had the time to compete but it won't be in the cards for another 3 years when I retire!

I'm not a competitor but I learned about the gas thing when a 308 Ar-10 started pulling rims on the cases. It all still applies whether you're a hunter or a competitor.

To further explain, when a shell is fired, it swells tight against the chamber. If you have too much gas, the bolt will unlock and start to pull that case out before the pressure is low enough for the case to relax. The result is broken extractors and ruined cases.

Good thread.

Good point! Anyone care to tackle the extractor spring/buffer comparisons to help prevent Fail To Extract/Eject?

Great info, Bluedreaux! Thanks for taking the time.

Ed

Not much on the extractor/spring setup. Get a good spring kit and replace every 2500 rounds on a carbine system. Rifle and mid length can go longer but at $5 a kit why?

There is a lot of confusion on which gets what. I use BCM's 5 coil kit but I leave out the o-ring on my mid length and intermediate. Too much extractor pressure can cause issues same as not enough.

The extractor needs to be sharp where it grabs the case. Replace every 5000 rounds or as needed. Again these aren't very expensive so get a good one. A Colt at Brownells is under $30 and is much better than the cheaper ones I've seen.

APDD that can be a whole 'nother animal. I keep it simple and run the midweight buffer with midlength gas and the black rubber thing for the extractor and have been fine. Also when I change springs I change them all, I dont want a half worn spring to influence something else and leave me chasing my tail.

While your opening a can of worms, you can talk about buffer springs too...some get pretty rabid about chrome springs being smoother than stainless, then you can also look at a solid spring vs a wound wire spring.

Whatever you do you need to change one thing at a time to find out if it is hindering or helping. The worst thing a guy can do is to start swapping multiple springs, buffers or even brakes at once and then not be able to figure out what is going on. I have even seen some muzzle brakes (especially cans) completely alter a feeding/extraction cycle and require different buffers.

Also when your setting up a gun you need to know what your source of ammo is going to be. If your counting on over the counter .223 to make it run most of the time you need to be pretty liberal with you gas and know your parts are going to taking a bit more of a beating with 5.56/nato spec ammo. If you keep the gas tight to run the 5.56 be prepared to practice your stove pipe and extraction failures when running .223. The ideal situation is having one source for all ammo and tuning it to the system.

Brian Enos did a ton of work on tuning pistols with springs, brakes, powders and bullet weights, there is no reason the same principles can be applied to a rifle.

I forgot about the inserts, I can't prove the black insert is stronger than the blue, some say it's just to identify rifle vs carbine. But a blue insert will undoubtably be on a weaker rifle extractor spring.

Again get a good kit, BCM, Colt, Wolf or Tactical Springs all have good kits. When in doubt, replace with a known kit.

Action springs or buffer springs can cause problems too. A carbine spring should measure between 10 1/16"-11 1/4". Rifle should be between 11 3/4"-13 1/2". Change every 5000 rounds.

While we're at it, buffer weights;
Carbine 2.9 oz
H 3.8 oz
H2 4.6 oz
Rifle 5.2 oz
9mm 5.5 oz
H3 5.6 oz

Edit to add; the original 9mm buffer is a solid piece and will induce bolt bounce on a 223. The newer versions are a 2 piece affair that acts as a counter weight. Bolt bounce with a solid buffer would or could bounce back faster than the extractor could grab the rim, leaving the carbine out of battery. You can only see it with high speed video but the click will be heard round the world.

We shot a Stag my friend beat out of a poor fellow using a Keltec Sub2000 the other guy just had to have. We shot it on Presidents day. It shot great but failed to lock back on a Pmag. I am pretty sure its carbine gas, I will tell him to check the buffer to see what is in there.

Some Pmags wouldn't let the carrier lock back so try some other magazines and remember light ammo will also cause this.

What about buffers that have "shaken loose" the filler weight? IE rattle when shaken? Toss?

10-4 was shooting XM193, it locks my colt carbine back, but may be the mag.

Do you keep a couple different buffers on hand and change them out depending upon what ammo you are using?

I think they are supposed to rattle. The loose weight pounds the forward section home, eliminating bolt bounce. The weight bounces instead of the bolt.

Blue, which buffer would you recommend to help slow down the recoil impulse for a 16 inch barreled Stag? The Stag comes with the carbine weight buffer. I was thinking an H2, but would the spring also need to be replaced with the buffer or will it work with the heavier H2 buffer as is?

Also looking for a muzzle break/comp. Looking hard at the Titan any input on this as well?

Thanks.

I've heard both sides of the discussion, just looking for the input from the members here...since we are now the topic of buffers.

Did it lock back on other mags? Check it with a couple of different mags, that'll help you trouble shoot what's going on.

If it doesn't lock back on anything, I'd look at the buffer. If it works on everything but that one mag, I'd shrug my shoulders and just not use that mag.

I wouldn't. Just find what works for your lightest ammo and run with that.

If you want to get rid of the ping when you shoot , just change out the Buffer Spring to a Chrome Silicon Spring from Tubbs , works better than going to a heavier buffer in my experience

I'm not sure who the other side is but if you've ever taken a buffer apart you know the weights are loose and free to slide back and forth.

Maybe this will help
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?6827-Buffers-amp-Springs

Thanks - I've always thought they were loose in the tube, but I overheard a mall ninja beating up a customer over a buffer that "rattled". Think it was just a play to sell more un-needed parts.

I thought the MN was wrong, but hadn't taken one apart or asked the question, so figured the line of discussion was right for the question.

Mall ninjas need slapped up along side the head.....thanks for the post Blue!

The ping annoys some folks, but for folks that shoot a LOT, and understand the mental part of the game, IF you can hear the ping, you are not performing the shot process correctly. I used to laugh when I heard that and then realized... wow they were right... if i oculd hear it ping, I wasn't mentally doing what I needed to.

The other cure is simply wipe the spring with grease a bit...

I'd skip straight to the H2. The spring will be fine.

If you're serious about a brake, the Titan is a serious one. If you're gonna go with a brake like that, just be prepared for it. If you shoot around other people, they'll hate the brake after the first shot. After the second shot, they'll hate you. If EVER shoot it without earpro, or have anyone around you who doesn't have earpro on, it's gonna be painful. Not "Oh my ears are ringing", but actually painful. I was standing about 8' behind a shooter with a brake last weekend and didn't get my ears on in time before he started shooting and it still hurt being that far off. But if you want to flatten that muzzle out, a Titan will definitely help get you there.

A while back I posted a review here of some Colt Competition rifles. I was able to shoot 14.5" carbine gas, 16" carbine gas and 18" rifle gas guns back to back that all had the same brake on them. A good brake did wonders for the muzzle rise on the 16" gun, but it still wasn't comparable to the same brake on the 18" rifle gas (which was noticeably smoother). I'm not trying to talk you out of it, but think of it as adding racing tires and a chip to a Honda Civic....it'll go faster, but what you really need is a racecar to begin with. On the other hand, if you've got a Honda in the garage and aren't gonna buy a racecar....by all means you should fix it up the way you want it. Does that make sense at all?

If you want to try a brake but aren't sure if you'll like it there are a couple of options...
1-Try a hybrid brake/flash suppressor like the Battlecomp. They're still louder than a typical flash hider, but they're no where near being in the same class as a true competition comp. You're muzzle won't be flat, but it'll be noticeable flatter than with the flash hider. The sights seem to just bounce around the target instead of jumping off of the target.
2-Try the Miculek comp for $40. It's the cheapest I've seen for a true comp. A friend had one and I shot his a bit and it really does work. Does it work as good as a Titan?....I don't know. But for $40 it'd be a cheaper way to find out if you want to go that route or not.

What are you wanting to do with the gun? What made you want a brake?

Saw this and thought it maybe of some interest

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i can only hear it when shooting groups on paper

Your my boy BLEU! Thanks. I will look into a heavier buffer and forgo the Comp for this build. I think a Battlecomp may be a better option.

I'm guessing, and it really doesn't matter, as I'm sure you shoot well enough to keep you happy. And I"m not meaning that as any kind of insult at all, as I don't often shoot well enough to make me happy, but I often shoot well enough to manage what I'm after if that makes sense... my brain is a tad different...

Anyway I bet on yotes, game etc.... you are pre-occupied with the game, and don't hear the ping... which also disguises any things you do wrong in the shot process. The correct way, and I probably don't shoot game more than 60% of the time the "correct" way is to be looking at the sights, waiting for it to be right and the gun goes bang without you really realizing it was going to happen then. You know it would, but you are on auto pilot of the brain seeing and reacting on its own...

But like I said, from what you say and pics you have posted, I'd say you are doing it all just fine enough as is.

As I said, I've never been happy, even when winning a tournament, there were still things I left on the table, and things that need improving.

Sometimes I muchly dislike my mother for instilling that drive in me.Sometimes though in other things I totally ignore the drive...

i have shot very well all my life , the one thing i have always been good at , especially in the field, shotguns, rifles and pistols shooting is just a way of life to me. The one thing that is hard to improve on as you get older is your eye sight, the most limiting factor in shooting for us old farts. I thank the Lord i can still see almost as well as i did 30 years ago . My night vision isn't as good as it used to be tho.

You are one way up on me if you can shoot shotguns well.

I SUCK with them. Rarely breaking more than 50% on hit/miss.

Though this fall I did take a 6 duck limit with 9 shots, and 2 of those were to try to help a friend finish a high cripple and both missed... I was impressed with my LUCK that day.

I"m dealing with sight already, almost at 50. Of course I couldn't see to start with very well at age 16 or so... Shot a 16 inch wide nice 8 point one morning, we could shoot does... I never saw the antlers... until I walked up on it... Heck I remember getting about 30 yards out and thinking, something is funny about that deer...

I have always been better than most with a shotgun . The first time i ever shot on a skeet range was at Ft Campbell, KY in 1971. Remington 20 ga 870 pump Wingmaster , broke 24 out of 25 including the doubles . I grew up from the time i was 8 or 9 years old with a shotgun or rifle in my hand . Never liked nothing better than guns , hunting , shooting and i still feel that way . If i didn't have my guns i would rather be dead and buried .

I agree on the last sentence!

I didn't grow up with a lot. Dad was a wingshot only. But we didn't have anything to shoot at except once a year we took a 3 hour drive to shoot doves at our cousins...

No shooting, means not getting good.

The flip side of my duck shoot mentioned earlier.... a teal hunt. 25 shells later I had no ducks. My buddy said here take some of mine. Nope, cna't hit one in one box, I'm OFF for the day. Grins.

22s and deer rifles came naturally... as did our highpower rifle, IDPA, IPSC, Silhouette, bullseye pistol and such... took to them natural.

Great post Blue', thanks for taking the time to put this info together.

What are your thoughts on this combo,

16" bbl, carbine gas, A2 stock/buffer?

Shane

Shane-I've only used a rifle buffer setup on 16" and 14.5" mids and an 18" rifle. But I would make an educated guess that it'd work great. I imagine that the rifle spring would work really well with the longer dwell time of a 16" carbine gas setup.

The rifle length spring-buffer rig seems to be very forgiving in what it'll run with.

Blue is correct, the heavier buffer and longer spring of an A2 stock are very forgiving. Not much needs to be done nor can be done.

All the problems associated with the carbine gas are less of a problem with a fixed stock. But I do hear the "sproing" noise on a fixed stock. Unlike a Rost who zones out while shooting, I lack any Zen shooting tendencies and sort of feel the whole firing process, including when my bolt locks back on an empty chamber.

When I constructed my AR (before I knew any better) I put a carbine upper on an A2 lower. It ran GREAT.

I shoot primarily handloads, in it, and I tend to run them hot, so maybe I just lucked into a combination that was right for my style.

The only issue I ever ran into was with Russian lacquered ammo. It would not cycle the stuff, so I took it to a gun show and got rid of it.

Recently I switched to a carbine stock and buffer, and I'm now thinking I could use a heavier buffer.

If you wanna go full looney, there's always the VLTOR A5.... http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=1749

I've never noticed a "sproing" with it, but I don't know that I would.

Thanks for the feedback.

I've used the setup before and it felt about the same as a 20"/rifle gas setup. I was curiuos what those of you with more expertise on the subject thought.

When I went to a collapsable type stock with the carbine buffer system and standard carbine buffer I could definitely feel a bit of a 'thump' that I assumed was the buffer hitting the back of the buffer tube.

For now, I've gone back to both of my ARs in the generic A2 and A3 rifle mode, 20" bbl, A2 stocks, rifle gas.

I suppose the old XM177 style with 11.5" bbl, and carbine gas system must work fairly smooth.

I never saw much sense in the 11.5" bbl with a welded on long flash suppressor to make 16", but I would imagine it's fairly easy on the internals given the shorter dwell time.

I spent a lot of time shooting an 11.5" SBRd Colt and it was brutal. Some of it I'm sure was muzzle blast, but the actual "recoil" of it was ridiculous (considering what it was anyway). I remember thinking, "I thought this was just a little .223."

Compared to longer guns, especially those that are set up right, that 11.5" was just violent.

I played with one some years ago, and that's kind of what I remember about it, it was a handful.

The one I shot just had a standard A2 flash suppressor on the 11.5" bbl. It was LOUD.

I've never experienced some of these shorter 7-ish" pistols. They must be pretty obnoxious.

Shane-I suspected that the gas ports were probably opened on those 11.5" barrels to compensate for the substantially shorter dwell time. Since the bolt won't get gas for very long, it's gotta get a lot of gas and get moving pretty fast.

Some googling revealed that the port on an 11.5" barrel is 50% larger than on a 16" barrel (from Colt).

So it's still a carbine length, but it's definitely getting more pressure than the other carbine barrels.

That makes sense.

I've never heard of the longer flash hiders being better either. Just longer so they're legal.

So how many SBR's you have experience with?

The real deal XM177's had a "sound moderator" on it. The fakes to be legal are stupid since you brought up the extra gas required and the velocity loss.

There is an interesting story behind the XM177 and the sound moderator. It involved A POW camp in Vietnam, intentionally crash landing a helo and payback. I'll see if I can dig up a link.

Can't come up with anything right now but it was at Sun Tay and the reason for the moderator was to bring the noise level down to regular M16 levels so no one would know SF were in the area.

I've never owned or shot an SBR if your definition is strictly NFA guns. How much money do you have in the bank?

10-4 will try to shoot it again on Sunday.

After reading and watching that brass vs. steel ammunition.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/#dirtiest

it makes you realize how rugged the platform really is. I mean bushmasters of all things to 10,000 rounds with cheap steel cased ammunition. They shot those guns with no extractor replacements or spring replacements, minimal cleaning and commented on the replacements at 2500 and 5000.

All the sitting in the easy chair and pondering and proclaiming you must have an FAL or an M1 or a piston gun, wow.

What well documented test. Thanks for sharing that.

Jimmy, I own the Big 3 platforms, AR, AK, FN.

Hands down, the AR has given me the fewest problems. The contrast between it an the other two platforms is so stark it's not even a contest. Runner for trouble free is actually the SKS.

I had one of the springfield arms Imbel FAL's with the from the factory bipod on it, a bunch of magazines, and a bunch of surplus ammo from where I forget. The gun shot just fine was much more accurate than an Ak and never had a problem. It was just heavy. The scope mount I got with the gun was a dust cover with a rail on it, sort of funny that.

I just got rid of my last AK, a great gun worked on by Chris Butler in Florida. You were never afraid to do a mag dump in it because even if you burned the barrel up it would shoot no worse. It shot thru a bit thicker sapling than a 55 grain ball bullet from a 223 so there was that. In the end I just don't like AK ergonomics.

So I sold it and replaced with a Smith MP10 which has been a lot of fun, easy to shoot, accurate, and only 10 3/4 pounds with a load of 20 rounds in it.

Guns that don't work for me go down the road pretty quick.

Today I shot a coyote running away from me with the Fauxneske and was thinking how nice it was to be able to keep the coyote in the scope while I watched him tip end over end. I was using the VX6 1-6 on 6 power and hit him about 175 yards away.

The H2 buffer works great on the Noveske mid length but this was the first time I've really noticed how smooth it shot. I also love the Geisselle trigger.

That my friend is a Zen moment.

Bump for IronEagle.

good thread, will bookmark it.

Recently I've also read about using the heavier M16 style bolt carriers as another method of smoothing out a system.

Anyone experimented with the differences the shaved AR15 style and M16 style carriers or have a preference for one or the other and how they effect the system?

Just wanted to add this info origionally posted
by jimmyp

Thanks for that graphic. It makes sense quickly.

I have a question about BCG wgts. I kinda came late into the AR scene and started w/ a "Predator" style and found some of the brass was being treated unkindly. Having a redneck farmer mentality that hates wasting anything, Id heard that increasing the wgt of the BCG would slow the action and would be more gentle on the gun and the brass. So with the farmer engineering approach i found a 5/8" bolt that wasnt holding anything down and cut the head to a flat thin button, and the body was shortened to allow hammer clearance. The result seemed to be what was desired and the rifle functions without any issues, so after I got a DPMS " barn gun" I did the same thing. Both shoot well, i dont have a broad enough experience base to say whether they are smoother or not, but function is just great. I raely fire more than 2-4 shots at one episode. Foxes and such varmits either die or escape in that time frame. Question is, I guess is am I doing anything especially stupid or wrong? Brass seems to bein the prescribed quadrant, and is reeloadable without any problems, its also usually easy to find.

Yes, adding weight to the BCG or anywhere in the recoil system will keep the bolt in battery longer and slow down the cyclic rate. These are usually good things when you want to save brass or run a little faster load. David Tubb makes a carrier weight system that drops in a AR-15 or AR-10 bolt carrier for that very reason. I have one in my .308 and it does help, especially when shooting suppressed.

I guess Im going to have to find another unused 5/8" bolt for my AR 10.

JP Adjustable Gas System

MM

I have a Syrac adjustable gas block on a Syrac mid-length 16" upper. The lower has a carbine buffer. The BCG is a semi. I've adjusted the gas block so it locks back on an empty mag, plus 1/2 turn to be safe. It is very "smooth" shooting compared to my other upper and different friends' ARs.

With the same BCG and the same lower, my other upper with a 16" barrel but a carbine gas has much more recoil.

The gas block makes a big difference.

I know things would smooth out with a heavier buffer with the carbine upper, but would I gain anything going to say, an h-2 with the mid-length upper that already had the gas block adjusted, or is it already as good as it gets?

Rather than drop the $40 on a new buffer and shipping to try it, I'm hoping someone here has already used a similar setup.

I wouldn't change a thing.

Thanks for the response.

Bump for TikkaNut

So.. is the A2 buffer like an H2 or H3? Is it just called a rifle buffer?

I have a 16 inch upper and an A2 stock, haven't had a chance to try the "seeing the hits in the scope" thing yet, but it throws my brass about 4:00 o'clock and works everytime so I guess I don't need to change anything.

OK, I went back and found the diagram, so the A1/A2 is the heaviest? I just need to make sure it locks back on any .223 stuff I shoot or lighter handloads.

Lots of good info in there, just had to pay attention.

Thanks much

bump for the new guys.

Thanks for the info, Blue and others. Invaluable to a noob..

I remember the first time I shot an AR--my buddy's S&W M&P carbine--I was surprised at the 'recoil'. That is, how much it moved on target. I attributed it to the BCG and buffer springs all moving back and forth. Decided a good bolt action was where it was at.

Now that I have one I wonder if I should have shopped for a middy. After reading this I've ordered a heavier buffer and spring. Should get them this week and I'll do some side by side testing to see what happens. I'm not planning on comp with it (yet) so perhaps it's a waste but I'm an OCD tinkerer so can't help it. If I ever shoot out this barrel, I'll try a mid length next time.

Interesting...the Campfire CAN be a source of helpful info...

Thanks for the bump, AS. (I first followed the link from the other thread).

tag