The new DPMS SASS is advertised on Buds for about 1800
The Knights Armament SR25 is over 3500

What is the big deal with the Knights? Is the BCG and Trigger super duper? The barrel? What is the engineering difference? I don't understand or see it.

What makes a Knight's Armament SR-25 worth $3500? Not a damn thing. The ones he pawned off on 5th SF Group wouldn't shoot for schidt. Reed Knight is a crook.

No kidding...

Must be a lot of dumbasses buying them or he could not sport that price and sell a gun.

I don't like KAC at all. I shoot them at work because they are issued to us but when I shoot precision matches I don't use KAC. Their service is lousy and their is a lot I would change about the guns they field for us.

They are very reliable and fairly accurate guns, thats why they come at a premium. They also sport the KAC name so that tacks on a few hundred extra alone. Are they $1000-$2000 better than everything else? No, I do not think so. LaRue, LMT, JP, and GA Precision all make rifles that are just as or more accurate for less money and all have awesome customer service.

KAC does a lot of trail blazing and makes one of two 308 AR's I'd trust my life with. They are not as accurate as some possibly but they do the job at any range the 308 is good for. They are not hobby guns and priced accordingly and so is LaRues version.

I suppose some will say their RRDPMS will out shoot it and I know of one AR-10t that did but for a battle rifle, I think I'd want acceptable accuracy and extreme reliability but I'm just a hunter and ain't gonna spend the money or carry the weight.

me neither, a DD 5.56 and spend the rest of the money on a fantastic optic.

wasn't the SASS rifle they came up with kinda the first of its type?? other guns have came out that are better choices, but some people think there is value just in something that costs alot of money. Thant and they can say its the same gun as the seals shoot.

What do y'all have against a .5MOA 10lb rifle with a 25 round magazine that can shoot just as fast as you can pull the trigger?

I dunno but the KAC SR25 sure would look good with the $800 surefire flashlight. Har!

Funny thing. We complain about goverment waste without looking at our own spending habits.

What is the other? Did you know Reed Knight owns a tank?

What is it engineering wise that makes one of these premium rifles more reliable? Better ejectors? Better BCG's?

The older DPMS uppers and lowers were 6066 aluminum if I got my numbers right, (the inferior alum.) and memory serves me but who ever had a cracked upper or lower?

Not being devil's advocate; I honestly want to know what makes one more reliable than another from an engineering technical perspective. Always grateful for the feedback.

Not that all of this is necessary or even preferred, but some of the things I can name off the top of my head that make the KAC more expensive are:

They use better quality barrels with better chambers, better QC on bolts and extractor parts, better triggers, correct gas system lengths and port sizes, ambi controls, milspec vs. commercial receiver extensions, much better quality handguards, muzzle devices that serve as comps and suppressor mounts, SOPMOD stocks, and I am sure im missing other things but thats just some of what drives the price.

Nothign against .5 moa and semi. But anyone can build one like that for less money.

Including the parts you mention. Any smith worth his salt uses top line parts. And you can get better barrels than Knights uses is my guess, but i don't know what barrel they do use. Rare to find anyone line maker that uses the best tubes. 100 bucks more than cheaper tubes and the line makers still prefer to pocket that 100.

As I've learned to say, if you don't want to do all the work yourself, making contacts and having one put together, and don't mind paying mucho for a name, then get after it.

I'd be surprised if I couldn't put together as good or better shooting gun for 1000 bucks less. Maybe even more savings that depending.

I did , and in my opinion, thats the way to go with .308 AR's. Mine has a Lilja barrel with an adjustable gas block, Geissele trigger, JP Bolt and JP SCS. All premium parts make up the heart of the rifle and still came in $1000-$1500 less than a KAC (two different style rifles though). I am not saying the KAC is worth every dollar they charge, just that they come at a premium for a reason.

LMT would be the other one if I had an extra $2700.

I've heard he has a very impressive full auto collection as well but I don't know anything about him.

I know that the only SR25 I've handled was a fine weapon. It's not the most accurate gun around but under MOA and it runs and runs and runs. I know I prefer SOPMOD stocks and KAC designed and produced them for LMT. I know the bolt design KAC came up with will out live the current mil spec HP MPI'd bolt we've been using. I know their micro BUIS is the best one I've seen. I also know they are overpriced but what isn't? $1800 for a dpms is about twice what their worth as well.

There are companies who sit back and build copies.
And then there are those that improve the design on their own dime. I would not call them crooks.

I will add that I don't own any Knights products that I can recall nor would I pay their asking prices. But I do like some of their products.

Do bolts wear out quicker on the 10s?

I've never worn one out on a 15 but do dump them after 3 barrels just in case, figuring thats anywhere from 12K rounds on up depending.

We have had this discussion in the same vein regards 5.56 caliber weapons. I have always believed that in a gun you would bet your life on, that you should select one within certain parameters. Others laugh and say "parts is parts" to quote our friend TWR.

If I need a gun for self preservation it would be a 5.56, should I need a .308 for that same purpose I guess I would join the rest of the dumbasses and get a Knight.

The jury is still out on the new DPMS, however for the money the MP10 is a hard gun to beat for a reliable weapon. Not sure if I would get the Ruger piston gun.

Jeff I'm not even sure if the SR25 is available with their E3 bolt or whatever they call it. I was just pointing out some of the designs KAC has come up with. Their bolt design for the 5.56 is notable in carbines, the rifle gas that y'all ran is not hard on bolts.

I'm just trying to explain why KAC charges so much and still stays in business, there has to be a reason. Some will gladly pay for quality, others pay for what they think is a bargain. Same can be said for Aimpoints vs chinese knockoffs, they look the same and work the same, to a point.

Again, I'm not a KAC customer but I do understand quality costs. And "parts is parts" was Pat Rogers' sarcastic quote when describing the cheap hobby guns he sees go down in his classes. Just to be clear.

I will, 'cause I have personal knowledge of what transpired between Knight and 5th SF Group. He negotiated a contract and slipped some marginal accuracy standards in that the dumbazz officers who signed it were too ignorant to understand. When the shooters got the rifles and found that they wouldn't shoot, and cried foul. Knight, instead of fixing the guns, said my rifles meet the contract standard.

Could be very right, I think I have one carbine so far... might be close to 2 now with putting a whisper together.

I just don't understand why carbines are hard on the guns, seems, and I'm not all that smart I know, that you mess with the gas volume and then you are not beating anything up.

RE R/D, we all pay for it at times. Drugs are a big issue there, they take lots of cash to develop, and we have to pay for it. Or not get it.

Just seems you should not have to pay arms and legs to just monkey and tweak things. Its not rocket science really, but maybe it is.

I've not problem anymore with folks paying waht they want to.

I recall a guy shot on one of the ranges I shot on monthly, put big money in a KAC rifle, and then bought cases, yes cases of factory ammo. I don't think he ever made sharpshooter... The indian formulates some of the need or lack thereof.

Its not unlike John Burns rifles, ready to go and some folks just want that, they are not like some of us, gun nuts to the end tweaking our stuff the way WE want it.

For me, in the end, the big platforms will be fun to play with if I ever get that far, but if I feel the need for the 308, the MTU tubed 700 works as good as I need.

Some points here I have noticed and will comment on:

1. Reliability: They are, and when maintained/lubed, stay that way.

2. Good Handguard/Accessories: They are not. I don't know why any company would send soldiers handguards with flat-head screws because they WILL get buggered. The screws also will work loose quickly unless one applies Lock-Tite. The bipod mount also has flat-head screw and ships with an older style Harris bipod with out hand adjustable knob or lever. The suppressor is overly long and heavy and does not exhibit a consistent shift until it is shot enough to foul and lock up (not surprising when you look at how it locks up). My triggers break on average at a mediocre 4.75lbs. Their magazines are not durable enough for a combat rifle. Their rear sight is quite good but they front sight should not be integral to forearm.

3. .5MOA and 10lbs: The M-110 is neither reliably .5MOA or 10lbs.

I assume some of that was in refrence to what I said above. I was not speaking of KAC with the .5MOA and 10lbs thing, just what a .308AR can be in general. Their handguards on the other hand (the ones on the SR-25's and SR-15's), whether you like them or not, are some of the best in terms of machine quality and durability.

I see lots of guys cussing the flat head screws but that's one tool everyone has and that's why they use em.

I wouldn't buy one that is for sure

I agree, where is the fun in buying a $3500 rifle and having to fix the POS when you can spend $1500 for a similar POS under a different name. What all this tells me is that bullshite from Knight is just higher priced bullshite than bullshite from DPMS, S&W, Ruger etc.

Its the same thing with NightFarce. Mount one up on a Knight rifle and throw the thing out of a helicopter onto the rocks below, run over it a few times with a jeep, sink it in the swamp for 5 days, if both the rifle and scope rock on, then ok I see their worth $7,000.00. Or just buy a 5.56 DD and aimpoint for 1/3rd the money.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/steiner-military-3-15-50-rifle-scope-review-1.php

or just learn to use irons and ditch the aimpoint too.

It's only 30% slower, and its only your life.

Always curious to see so many without a clue so quick to announce it.......




Where to start.....


7.62 AR's have always had problems. Reliability, durability, shootability, size, weight, etc. But anyone that thinks that your hobby grade 7.62 AR is the same as a Knight is purposely lying to themselves.

I have had a long standing distaste for KAC.. The SR25's often shot like crap with some playing musical chairs with the rifles and suppressors to find a good combo. The early M110's were more of the same. But at least they work. Something that until recently just about no one else has been able to do. Also, the KAC rifles in the military were tested and selected almost a decade ago. No one had anything comparable.

Save the "my DPMS, RR, etc" work just fine nonsense. There is a difference between what is required for shooting pigs and people. Going out in the backyard and plinking a few rounds a year is not a test. Even rifle golf (service rifle, etc) isn't close to being a test of reliability and durability.


Here's reality- 7.62 AR's are hard to make work. They are hard to keep working. They are not just upscaled 5.56's. Knight knows how to make them work and though it pains me to say- their new guns like the EMC are fantastic.

There are only a few 7.62 AR variants that I have seen consistently work in a duty capacity- Larue, LMT, HK 417 and KAC. You may not need it or see it, but those guns cost what they do for a reason.








jimmyp,

I'm curious how much experience that you actually have with KAC or Nightforce? You seem hellbent on jacking about them, especially NF, and yet I only remember you having a 1-4x....? As well what does a DD 5.56 and am Aimpoint have in common with variable powered Nightforce's and 7.62 KAC's?

That is why I bought a SCAR 17

What is the typical "weak link in the chain"...

From an engineering standpoint; what specifically is going wrong?

Why can't I slap a pre-assembled premium BCG into my hobby gun and call it a day??? Where else are they breaking down?

Larue is nearly 3400 and they do describe some engineering aspects:
http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-obr-optimized-battle-rifle-complete-762-rifle-18-barrel

They discuss their chamber:
XTRAXN� is a proprietary chamber feature added to reduce frictional forces caused by pressure-expanded cartridge cases bearing against chamber walls. Facilitates reliable extraction through a wide range of temperature / chamber pressure extremes. XTRAXN� extends extractor life, while having no effect on the firearm's accuracy. All this, and it dovetails well with the OBR's world-famous accuracy.

Larue has a two position gas block to make the sure-fire suppressor work right.

If the reviews posted on the Larue website are honest and not fabricated, ( I assume they are honest ) that is one amazing rifle.

It's a whole lot of little things instead of one big thing.

I can only discuss my old AR-10 cause after I sold it, I was done with any 308 AR.
On it, they had a tendacy to fail to extract so Armalite sent a new extractor and rubber o-ring that helped a bunch with mild loads when everything was clean and well lubed.

Step the pressure up or let it get dirty and it started pulling rims. There was a guy named Slash on arfcom who sold extra heavy buffers that helped but I could not use anywhere close to the loads I used in bolt guns.

Mine was a ban era 16" carbine with a rifle stock and a mid length gas system. I could run a 150 gr bullet about 2650 fps and be on the edge of it working okay. I had a 15" Encore pistol that smoked it so it wasn't barrel length. My bolt load pushed the same bullet right at 3000 fps.

Now figure the AR-10 weighed over 10lbs even as a carbine and you should see why I stick with AR-15's now.

The KAC that a friend has shot ok but what impressed me was it always ran, even better than a couple of AR-10 rifles around here. I can't begin to tell you why they work but will say the cost is there for a reason.

You know...

I is starting to scratch my haid.
$3400 will buy a lot of loaded black hills for my bolt guns.

Form,

I said at the beginning must be some reason people buy them. I am personally experienced with two hobby 308's but not KAC. The MP10 seems to run fine, but ain't that accurate, the DPMS have not shot it enough but it bends case rims. I am not pointing to you however the issue is that so many people that post with authority may or may not have real knowledge. I got no problem with a lifetime investment of $3500 into a gun that shot bugholes and just worked then equipped with a Scope with decent glass that cost $3500 and would hold zero if you threw it out of a window 50 feet up onto the sidewalk, or ran over it with a truck, but I would have to see the video...

anyone got a NF 2.5-10 x 42 near Atlanta I can look thru? I am kind of in the market for a new scope. Yes NF has responsive service and yes they hold zero, and yes there is no reason to not put even VX2 grade glass in a nice optical instrument. Sorry but that still aggravates me.

Sorry, not near Atl. or I would, but you can take my word for it , they are awesome little scopes. I love my NF 2.5-10x42. It was a nice upgrade from the old x24 that the "milspec crowd" raves over.

I haven't tried the new 2.5-10X42 but have owned one of the first 2.5-10X24 NXS and now one of the newer 2.5-10X32 NXS compacts. The 32mm version is a huge improvement over the 24mm.

Yeah, 'cause us civilians are going into combat every day. Besides, I hear that HM's are quite handy with irons...

HM's? Tommorrow might be that day?

What about the LMT? I think its a little less money.

They are another very reliable .308 and I have never heard of anyone complain about their accuracy. Even their chrome lined barrels are very accurate. The only downside to the LMT's is the weight. They are a bit heavy from what I hear.

Maybe for some.

dunno, it is my life, true, but whatever we called the waist silhouette, I was at one time capable of 40-45 hits on it in 50 seconds from prone at 600, including a mag change, irons only, and slung up prone, no bipods or rests.

And if shooting swing target where I had to engage multiples, would be down around 32-35 total hits due to changing NPA at mag changes....

Pretty damn comfortable myself.... for myself.

it ain't the arrow, it's the indian...

Pigs.... People..... May be a difference. Might've addressed that already....

Would probably be a safe bet that I've put more rounds through DPMS rifles alone than the vast majority of those who think they shoot, have shot in their lives.

Oooooooooooo

That doesn't mean others can't have a differing opinion though. What works for some doesn't for others. It's all in the rifles application.

I shot a few of their 16" guns at Camp Butner during a course last fall. They had Leupold Mk6 scopes on them and were set up to be like the C-SASS. All of the rifles ran flawlessly and offered good precision. I didn't weigh any of them but they are light compared to the current M-110. The only complaint was the SOPMOD stock would occasionally collapse on guys if their sand sock pressed to hard against the lever; their is not much room on that stock for the sock without hitting the lever.

well that's an impressive resume. i'll be the first to admit that all ARs look the same to me. all i really want to do with one is pose with it

Which is completely legitimate. If one is hunting, plinking, competing, etc. there is no reason to buy a KAC, LMT, Larue, or HK 417 over a good DPMS pattern rifle. For sniper matches I use rifles built on DPMS parts but the reason to buy a KAC or similar is to use as a battle rifle with reliability under harsh conditions, harsh firing schedules, etc. being paramount.

And there ain't many posting here, that need or ever will need a true battle rifle.

And if the need arises, its usually only one round away from being in my possession...

Looks like I need to come down south and shoot a few piggies. We don't have them in Washington State.

I have a 223 with 65 grain Sierra Game Kings and a 308 DPMS Gen 2 recon with silencer.

And hence why no one understands why a KAC is worth $3,500.....

So that's whose side you are on........

Buddy of mine had one of those on the range recently. Was quite the POS.



Travis

Yeah, people seemed to think a lot more of them before they came out.

GII? Which version?

Correction. I just asked him and it was the older version.


Travis

Sure ain't to me. 3500 is the realm of i'll have built what I want, not what someone else thinks is the schizzle. And generally for less.

the internet, where grown men can still hang from trees and throw their feces at each other...

Internet or not, but I"ll damn sure do what I need for whatever the need is that arises.

Jeff, your full of it.

Hope we don't ever have to find out. LOL.

Don't be so sure of yourself, you will be a much easier target with your sling, fancy hat, and shooting jacket. Your gear would be in the hands of the nearest Bubba within 48 hours in a SHTF scenario.

You did not mean that as a threat did you? It sure is easy to talk big and bad on the interwebs.

I'm sure that he'll do just fine. I also don't think that he's caught up in the whole SHTF-TEOTWAWKI scenario as some here fantasize about it.

Trust me CBMJR, you might think I"m stupid, but I'm far from it. And it wont' involve a jacket, or glove or even any of my match rifles.... Fuggin DUH?

I certainly ain't going to give it up to fuggin bubba.

It ain't all about guns or gun handling, in a SHTF scenario there are a lot of other things involved.

So what are your credentials? And how did I become your "target"?

I can see it now, we're all taken out one by one, by a bubba with an RG38...

Like I said before, this place cracks me up sometimes.

Since we're not talking about KA anymore, I'll add this.... I put myself on a timer this week with five targets at 100 yards. Standing-offhand I got five hits faster with irons than with an Eotech. No jackets or slings involved. And if I can do that, I wouldn't want to be anywhere in front of Jeff.

Just for conversation. It surprised me.

The above was sarcasm by the way. I was just picking at Rost because he seemed like an easy target. Maybe too easy.

Can any body come up with a comprehensive point by point list, from an engineering and machinist perspective of the differences between the DPMS "hobby" gun and the Knights Armament? ... and why the K/A is mo better?

Feed, fire, eject, accuracty, portability/weight.

When you run and gun the DPMS parts break? Which ones?

In your own experience what let you down and broke?

He's fair game as he's posted about 20 times through the years how military snipers "can't shoot".

Pictures are good. Lots of talk on the interwebs. Not directed at you. Just sayin is all.

Yeah, you got that right in context and exactly quoted....

Compared to the best at Camp Perry, they can't. When the best that the USAMU and USMC can put together as a team sometimes get beaten by civilians, what doesn't that say about the rest of the military? He's not saying that they're lousy shots, just that they aren't the best.

PS- Rost, if I really wanted to, I could go back through my NM bulletins and figure out who you are, but it doesn't matter. Yet, these others come on here, offer no information or bona fides of their own, and cut you down. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Yeah, none of it matters.

I sure sucked when I started shooting. But I got better as did the wife. Never got great, but did well enough.

And shot enough with folks like Praslick, Ward, and many others I can't quite remember right now.

wife and I humbly own a TX championship plaque that beat all the military teams that year... it was not that common, but it did happen.

Certainly. What Rost isn't aware of is the guys who run these courses are often the absolute best shots in the military, in addition to their being top-shelf instructors. Quite a few of the SOTIC guys had President's Hundred tabs just like Rost does.

I've dabbled in Ross's game a time or two. The guys are all excellent trigger pullers, they shoot the same courses of fire, over and over. They have the comeups for each KNOWN DISTANCE yard line memorized.

Contrast the above with digging a hole in the ground, in the dark, rigging up overhead cover and getting you and your spotter and kit hidden and waiting until, whenever, and making it happen. This is all after making a night equipment jump a day or two prior and moving to the objective. Just a tad bit more to it than pulling a trigger.

SOTIC's program has historically been so good that CAG/Delta and the Secret Service send their snipers to it. The guys coming out of in now are far better trained than I was, with better equipment to use, and LOTS of technology, IE hardened tablet/computers to input data and find a firing solution. They learn the old ways first and then learn the high-tech. You don't want one of them hunting you.

Pardon me if I take offense the next time a service-rifle guy opines, "You don't play my game quite as well as I do".

I know a shooter who made P100 with a crossfire. If it had been even an eight on his target, he would have been first overall.

I don't know about now or other branches of service, but when I was in the Corps the guys on the Marine Corps rifle and pistol team at Quantico were there for 8 months and then back to their command. Another thing was at that time anyways not many commands would give up their manpower. I can't speak for all but my good friend and Sta Platoon member was not afforded the chance to try out. He shot and won just about everything on the base team.

I know the Army allows you to make a career of it if you have what it takes. I am not sure that is the case with the Corps now but I know it was not the case when I was in.

With that said, being on a military team doesn't make you the best period. As being a sniper doesn't make you the best shooter either.

I don't know Rost but I am confident he can shoot and his advice from what I have read is usually spot on. If I had the chance to shoot with him, I would be all eyes and ears! OPEN SIR!

Certainly, and I'd like to meet Rost, I'm sure he's a great guy.

In SF, you come down on levy for a "school-house" tour usually as an E-6 or E-7. Two years typically and longer if you want to stay.

I believe that back in the 90's, when I shot, the USMC team had a semi-permanent cadre that they filled out during the summer.

SOTIC or SF Sniper School as its called now, has quite a few DA civilians. SGM Boucher was NCOIC there 25yrs ago and he's been civilian cadre there since after he retired.

It depends on the particular model, howevet in general-


Barrels made of inferior steel
Gas ports not sized correctly
Chambers not cut consistently, and usually too tight
Feed ramps not cut correctly
Bolts made of cheap steel
Bolts with poor QC
Bolts not MPI/HPT tested
Weak extractor springs
Extractors with poor QC and poor steel
Incorrect buffer and buffer spring with regards to gas port sizing


Those are just the main issues....

Yes semi-permanent meaning they still answer to their command. Also 8 months would be semi-permanent. My command would not allow me due to mission requirements to shoot so I went to the MAG CO to try to shoot (archery). The MAG CO called my CO and asked to make arrangements for me to be able to shoot tournaments. Also there was no range on my base so they created an area where the dolphin's use to be and allowed me to train there (on my own time). So I got to shoot tournaments as long as I got to and from. Was better then nothing.

Thanks...

The reviews on the Midway page for the DPMS SASS 18" barrel are all over the board; evidently some of them are quite accurate but more than a few have screwed up chambers, too tight, too short, not straight, can't get any gas block to fit etc.

here's a comprehensive point by point list, albeit from a hunting perspective:

KILL
KILL
KILL
KILL
KILL

geeez i love a full moon weekend

What ranges are you shootin them pigs? Do you recon a PVS14 and an Aimpoint t1 would work out to 100?

Government contracts. Can't sell it to the government for $3,500 if your selling to the public for $1,500.

The most plausible explanation I've read yet.

I don't think the KAC is worth its cost over the DPMS penny for penny, but they for sure are not the same quality rifle.

FWIW, I went through 3 DPMS .308 extractors and spring sets before JP gave me one that worked 100%.

All merchandise suffers from diminishing returns. A $500 gun may be twice the gun that a $250 one is but a $2000 is not twice the gun that a $1000 one is. Same with cars and about everything else.

I agree. Same way a Hensoldt is not 4 times the quality of a Nightforce.

Pretty much. The KAC stuff has a pretty spotty record for accuracy but is high on reliability, at least that is what I have read on the internet.

I sure would want an accuracy guarantee at that price.

Forgot to add that Jones kills a bunch of pigs with his POS DPMS in case you guys missed that.

The vet could not save the equine.

Snipers are the best shots ever to inhabit the earth.

Hey! I'll oblige anyway! This has already gone to crap, so might as well stink it up with some of my shooting.

First time out to the range with the GoPro.

What brake is that? Looks like its working.

Looks like a Battlecomp.

Yep, 1" Battlecomp.

Jones is the MAN! As soon as this POS gets to running we will see what we see. Of course I have to get the flux capacitor and belvil washers adjusted first....9 3/4 pounds as it sits with 10 in the mag.

nice shooting there blue. i think i'm starting to understand the difference between targets and pigs. i would have rested over the hood and taken out those close ones first lol.

jimmyp - i have used the pvs14 with an eotech on a shotgun at close range. i have also used it with an ir laser. the laser is cool, but it only works if the pigs don't have night vision; otherwise you'll give your position and they will charge. if you're unfortunate enough to have a dpms, they'll kill you.

don't now about the aimpoint at 100 yards. my eyes are as old and worn out as i am (i couldn't even see what blue was shooting at). i need some magnification. to stay on topic with this thread, i'd suggest getting the pvs14 to satisfy the critics who think anyone spending $12k on a thermal is an idiot. but go ahead get the thermal too, to satisfy the crowd that thinks a pvs14 is just a hobby toy.

A man could kill a ton of pigs with a single shot as long as he has night vision and a can. In fact, there's a few videos out there with a guy killing a ton of pigs with night vision/thermal and a spear.

You have to keep things in perspective.

agreed. give me a single shot and i could triple my kills. let's see how other folks do when handicapped with a jamming pos dpms.

It's not the jamming pos that enables you to kill so many, that's like saying Jimmy Johnson wins so many championships cause he wears Nike shoes.

That's all.

She don't have a Knight either LOL

Out to 100 yards-For a 10" plate or larger I never bother using a support or a barricade, it just takes too much time. For 8" plates I'll consider it, depending on how many there are. For a full size torso target I'll go out to 150 before I use a barricade.

People don't realize how much time you spend getting set up using a support to stabilize your shots. When you see it on a timer, it's significant.

But shooting steel lends itself to unsupported shooting. I don't have to hit the center of the plate, just anywhere on the plate is a hit.

i think targets and pigs are more similar than i thought.

- we're both holding our first shot until something tell us 'go'.

- we both try to get as many hits as possible in a short period of time.

- we both get audible recognition when we smack the target.

- and to quote you for my favorite similarity... "I don't have to hit the center of the plate, just anywhere on the plate is a hit."

i don't know if you lose points for a miss, but i get to keep shooting the same one if i need to!

here's another pic, just to keep things in perspective...

IMHO an AR is the ultimate parts platform.

You can get by with about any lower. One of my winning guns has... gasp... a 35 dollar EA lower.

You then start shooting. YOu'll find out real quick what you need and what does work and what needs to be replaced as you go.

Or you can go buy someone elses idea of whats perfect to them, pay their price, and be satisfied if you were them....

If it works..... too many folks fixing chit that ain't broke,.

BTW Blue, nice shooting, you got it going there good to start with and were flowing well at the end.

Irons just take getting used to. I"d have never believed when I started, that I could hit stuff way off....

and in one line of thinking, you don't see the horrible wobble you do with optics so sometimes its easier to break shots with the irons...

Absolutely Jeff. On torso size targets I'm faster with irons at 100 yards or so because I don't see as much wobble as I do with a dot. Shrink the target to about 8" and a dot is faster for me. Let me put my 1-6 on about 2.5 and I'll smoke them.

My fastest run with irons was 6.xx. Dot was 7.xx. A buddy had magnification and ran it in just under 5. That's pretty dang fast for five hits at 100.

DJones-On steel each target has to get a hit. If you leave a steel unshot it's a 20 second penalty, which will ruin an entire match, so you've gotta hit them all. But you can shoot as much as you want, the penalty for misses is the time it takes you to shoot again. Which in itself is a big penalty. On an array of five targets, if you're sending more than seven shots you're screwing up. It's not so bad if you call a miss and immediately shoot again. But if you transition to another target and then have to come back to a miss you're screwed.

Everybody thinks it's all "spray and pray". And for the guys at the middle of the pack that's a worthwhile strategy. But if you wanna win there's VERY little room for any error, because the guy ahead of you isn't missing at all.

Blue, where do you zero?

Since the ACOG, I've switched from the 50/200 to a 100 meter zero and so far I'm liking it.

GII GAMECHANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jones sucks, (cause he kills lots of pigs and we don't, literally, have that many wild pigs in all of Wyoming) but man he does kill the pigs, and he sucks. The DPMS thing is just icing on the "sucks" cake.

Short answer--I'm at 100 also.

Long answer and the why--All of our hard rifle shots are at around 100, so I wanna just be able to hold right on those tough shots and not think about holdover-under. Especially with irons, I can't hold steady enough to hold "3"" low or high at 100 (or whatever it'd be). I just wanna hold center of the target and press the trigger.

The theory is that you can't think about doing something and do it at the same time. For example, if a kid runs out in front of your car and you think "I need to brake and swerve" and then brake and swerve you'll take too long and hit the kid. You've gotta just let your body react to what it sees without conscious thought.

So if I see a target, assess where to hold, find that spot on the target, and then break the shot I've taken too long. My goal is to see the center of the target and press the trigger without thinking, just reacting to what I see. It isn't a lot of time for each shot but for 300 shots in a match it adds up.

At the police olympics last month I missed two gold medals by less than two seconds combined over two days of shooting and won two silvers by the same. That's when you start looking for ways to shave parts of seconds.

I found it much simpler to just center the target and kill it and dial up when I need to. Read the "zen of the 100 meter zero" thread a dozen times but refused to change. Then the ACOG forced me to try it and it just worked.

I cannot understand what the major difference is? Is two inches high at 100 yards a major issue for the tournament shooting?

Read this and see which fits best for you.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?107572-Zen-of-the-100-Meter-Zero

2" can be the difference between a kill and a runner in my game.

Yes

When I read someone talking conscious and subconscious, you can bet they are either at the head of the pack or getting there really quickly.
Good job.

are you using flip up irons or like the A2 sights? That brake is pretty amazing.

I am old and slow but the 100 drops more out past 200 with a 3 inch sight height, or so it seems to me.

welcome to my hell

Thought you was going with surefires???

250 meters not yards will give you less than 7" of drop, 300 meters gets you 12" of drop.
99% of my shooting is under 150 yards until I start banging steel and then I dial anyway. So for out to 200 yards I can hold a little high, up close I can hold about the same.

It really started sinking in when I was trying to put a bullet through a small hole in the brush at 20 yards and then again at 85 yards, do I aim low or high? Like Blue said, you can't be thinking about stuff like that.

I remain puzzled. Under 100 they don't seem drastically different.

20 yards requires a high hold, 85 yards requires a low hold.

Using a 100 meter zero, you hold a little high at 20, not so much at 85.

Most think about zeroing a bolt gun with the scope 1.5" over the bore and everyone agrees the higher the scope is mounted the worse the trajectory is gets.

The AR places the scope or irons 2.7" above bore so the old 1" high at 100 mantra gets thrown out the window. You're dealing with almost a 6" top to bottom trajectory on a MPBR at 200 meters.

The 5.56 AR has a window where the bullet never rises above point of aim out to 100 meters, then it of course starts dropping. There is no hold under involved, everything is either hold a little high up close, dead on or high out far. It's just simpler shooting. Though it's not for everyone and I'm not telling anyone they have to use it.

have y'all considered shooting at bigger targets? just sayin...

I am considering the AN/PVS Aquila 4X as its rated for 308!

Not really, but if you have some to spare give me a shout. Can always change my mind. Grins.

Say I'm shooting at a 6" plate, I've got 3" above and below the centerline so say I've got about 2" of wiggle room in any direction and I can still get a hit. If my point of impact is 2" above that center line I'll only have about 1" of wiggle room in any direction for me to still get a hit (because the steel plate is circular there's not as much room for a miss at the top of the target as the middle of the target). 50% less wiggle room.

Back in April we shot a match where we had a series of ten 6" shots at 33 yards. That's an easy shot, until you're racing everybody else to shoot them as fast as you can. They were cardboard targets so you couldn't see / hear if you were hitting or missing. I didn't want to have to hold off and look for the "upper 1/3" or whatever of the cardboard so I actually dialed for a 33 yard zero.

To me, it's just so much faster / easier to hold on the center of the target. Some guys are able to make adjustments on the fly better than me though.

The front is a fixed DD sight on the rail, like this... https://danieldefense.com/components-parts/sights/rail-mounted-fixed-front-sight.html
The rear sight is a fixed Larue, like this... http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-buis-qd-lt-103

The brake does pretty good, but I've also got a VLTOR A5H3 in it and a 15" rail. With the long rail I'm able to get my left hand really far forward to help control the muzzle. By itself the battle comp does well, but not to the extent that the video shows.

It's this AR, but I've switched the light to one of John Burns' at 11 o'clock and moved the front sight all the way forward. But you can see how much further forward I can hold the rail.

I've got a Surefire on my competition gun. But this is my patrol rifle and the Surefire is just too loud to ever risk shooting it without ear protection.

The SF brake is significantly smoother than the BC.

Someday when I have the $$ to put another AR together I need to ask you about the merits and issues (if any) of that buffer system. It is intriguing but I just don't know enough about it to know if its right for me.

There are other ways to shoot irons rather than CM, but for what you are doing, as long as you can see enough of the target, IE its big enough, then CM is the way to run IMHO.

Even if you zero for some other hold, you are still centering the zero for the most error on the wobble side. Lord knows my wobble is never as small as I want it to be, and some days its flat unacceptable....

FWIW, I handed this AR to a friend today so he could see if he wanted to shoot it at a match next month. He fired one shot and stopped, looked at me and said, "WOW". He's been saving up for a full blown competition rifle but couldn't believe how smooth a well built "regular" AR can be.

I figured out the answer to the original question all on my very own! All it took was buying a couple of them and I was enlightened!

In regards to the thread topic, not a damn thing. Unless you just like to spend money on things ready to drive out the door.

Its the hard way to learn but at least you know for suture reference.

LaRue's 7.62 is $3400 as is JP's..........

KAC's SR-15 E3 version of a LPR with a Kreiger SS barrel is $2400; LaRue's similar gun is $2250, JP's version is $2500ish+, depending on how you like it done up.

Wilson's are comparable for both 7.62's or 5.56's too.

Not really much difference across the top end manufacturer's prices, all with guaranteed performance.

MM

Thats a reason to design what you want and have a top line smith do it for you.

Generally same or less money and a better outcome IMHO.

I should add that some don't know what they really want or its not for specific uses like mine are and as such, if you have the cash and not the time, then the top line offerings are not bad deals.

I've always been averse to buying something cobbled together because someone else thought it the best set up, when I have varying ideas, but granted on non tinker toy guns, like Rem 700, there really isn't much to change on rifles like that.
Other than the fact I can get a good stock, top barrel and bed them together myself and have a better outcome for less cash, but more time...

Well, to some degree, I agree with you.

But OTOH, sub-MOA is sub-MOA, regardless of how you get there.

I can build it myself as that's not a big deal, or pay someone to build it, but in the end, even with top-line components, & although it may perform as expected, it's still a Frankengun & trying to get the real value out of it compared to a factory gun, is difficult.

I've been mainly a buyer & not a seller, but at some point in time, that will change.

I'm working on a new gun for varminting, LR paper punching & LR club shoots & if I do it myself, I can save $200-400 depending on exactly how I do it, compared to some top line stuff, but I'll likely not recover my costs, even though I will only use top line components.

So, IMO, there is some merit in the value/price of top line factory guns.

Whatdayathink?

MM

Haven't seen an armorers manual for the 7.62x51mm, but the manual for the 5.56 versions all mention the screws are not to be turned by just anyone with the correct bit and (strangely enough) the ones with Loctite applied are listed as a remove-toss-replace item.

Really odd after perusing an Australian L1A1 manual and seeing how much of that was expected to be user maintained and even had a multitool issued to do it. Most of the surplus screw heads that had been issued looked like hell too though.

I always forget the value issue. its not an issue in SHTF if that were to ever happen. Gun is a gun is a gun.

But to resell, I agree with you on value. Though properly smithed guns, like WOP service rifle, will always bring a premium in the right circles, maybe even more so than a big name....

I don't ever see me selling. I even won a flippin ruger 270 of all things. 2 things combined that i can't stand and won't ever pay for. Ruger and then 270 to boot. But I won't sell it. Just can't bring myself to sell things. Ask my wife.

Probably when I'm dead and gone though, someone will have some guns or some cash.

Still thinking of buying 50 more lowers for the heck of it... Why, I have no idea.

Yeah, I hear you.......I buy a lot more than I sell too, but that needs to change pretty soon; just too much that's not getting used, just a handful of favorites.

MM

Pricey

Chauchat

I got an Armalite DEF-10 in 308 shoots great and shoots every time I pull the trigger.