These have been out 3-4 years or so now...any of you AR

shooters have them ? Reviews sound good...just seems I should

have one...have 3-4K rds of 40 Smith laying around for my XD40

Haven't tried a .40, but have tried a 9mm Colt 635 and the muzzle flip from 9mm seemed worse than 5.56 out of a 14.5"+phantom pencil barrel so .40 should jack that up even more.

Unless you are shooting on a range that doesn't allow rifle ammo, I really do not see many perks with a 16" pistol round carbine.

I've been pondering getting a pistol caliber upper for my AR, also. Anybody out there shooting a 10mm upper? Interesting what Sherp said about the 9 upper. I've never shot one and was curious.

Surprised me a bit. The 635 has a 10.5" barrel and think(been awhile) it was an A2 type comp versus the 14.5"+Phantom(not much of a comp) and various 16" pencils + A2 comps (the same furniture/basic external feature layout on all variants) I have tried and the difference was notable in the 9mm versus 5.56. Not saying the 9mm was uncontrollable or painful(it is a 6lbs 9mm after all), but there was more flip with it. I assume this is a variation of the factors in play when a pistol with fixed sights will typically have a higher point of impact when using a heavier bullet weight than a lighter one.

The 10mm seems sort of interesting for hunting because of the increase in power, but very much doubt it would have anything going for it over a 5.56 with any decent for task bullet beyond beating a bore diameter regulation and perhaps a bit lower muzzle blast level which I forgot to mention as a plus with the other 2 pistol chamberings.

Tikkanut, you've hit on the best reason to own such as carbine, ammo interchangeability. I'm considering one as well, but in the .44 magnum lever action flavor.

If someone made a realizable .44 Mag upper I'd sure consider it, but the rimmed cases don't seem to like magazines very well.

The 9mm AR (Colt 6450) is as smooth shooting as the M&P 22LR.

Never heard of anyone that couldn't run one fast and flat, there just is no flip, dip or movement at all compared to a 223.

That said I traded mine cause the 223 will out do any pistol chambering when it counts. Pistol cartridges belong in pistols unless you just want to have fun on the range.

If you really want to get a great carbine to go with your pistol of the same cartridge, look at the Beretta CX-4 Storm. I have one on all calibers, 9mm, 40 and 45 ACP. They are a great companion to a pistol and give you a bit more range and are extremely accurate.

9mm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCkupJ3rUM


.223


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtWAC4vL1GI

Like I said the 6450 is as smooth a shooter as they get.

I've kicked around the idea of a pistol caliber semi-auto carbine. The Beretta Storm seemed interesting, but you are stuck with proprietary magazines, and the optics mounting didn't do much for me.

The Just Right takes Glock magazines, which are easily found and reasonably cheap. Optics are easily mounted

The Mech-Tech carbine conversions are also interesting. They are a little different concept, mounting on a pistol frame, either Glocks or 1911's.

What I have not heard is how well either of them, actually shoot

4000 rounds of 40 cal, trade it for some nice 223 ammo!

Smooth yes, but you said:




The same man shooting one of each showed that the 9mm version does in fact move as much as the .223. Do we need to see if the same man has demo'd a .22LR variant so we can see if it moves as much as that 9mm?

No, I just needed to shoot for myself to see the difference between all 3 cause I owned all 3 at the same time.

Listen to the guy when he talks about no recoil...

There is no flip on a 6450 they are smooth shooting and very fast on multiple targets. I can't imagine the 40 would be much different. Pistol cartridges just don't have the power a 223 does.

Now come on, experience does not trump YouTube videos!

Google does give wings to the imagination...

The first PD I worked for issued(when I started) Smith 4506 handguns, and Marlin Camp 45 carbines that used the same magazines as the pistols


While I understood, and appreciated the theory i never really cared for either weapon

don't need 223 ammo..have 7-8K handloaded rds for 3 rifles

From what I've understood, it's hard to find a load for pistol caliber carbines, that also shoots well in both short & long guns.

But as we can see there is recoil.

It isn't uncontrollable by any means, but it is there and more noticeable than 5.56 is.

You mean my initial post in this thread mentioning shooting a 635 and a pencil barrel 5.56 carbine with the same N stocks and field sight uppers?

No, TWR's posts on shooting and owning all three=experence, your post of YouTube videos.

Several problems with that.

1) I already beat him to the actual shooting the firearms claim.

2) After I posted the videos showing what I described, he then referenced the videos provided and claimed no movement from the 9mm which there clearly is.

3) Hickok45 is also something of a giant as well(his video with a 4" Python looks like an average person holding a J Frame) and has been at it quite awhile so it isn't like I used a newbie petite lady or child to demonstrate what I had already experienced and described.


But, hey, if you wish to join in on his false claims, knock yourself out. It is what it is and can clearly be seen in the video.

Since you like videos, please not the "harsh" flip or whatever you called it.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wli78MLYFTU

And to the OP, I would pass on this particular gun.
And another though it is a 10.5" and suppressed
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=azSXz8VKbhI

Why didn't you just copy and paste a quote of what I said? Oh, I know, because you can't tell the truth. So with that in mind, here is what I said:




Interesting also that you show us a video where the muzzle is moving quite a bit to show us something with(according to you) the same recoil characteristics as a .22LR.

I looked at the video did not seem like much muzzle flip to me.

In case you forgot what I said. I've yet to see in any video or actual experience, a 9mm with more flip than a 223. It's the first thing everyone who shot my 9mm raved about, how the sights barely moved off target and it's the only reason I'd reccomend a 9mm carbine.

It isn't terrible, but definitely more than .22lr and in my opinion more than 5.56mm. It is why I got a vid of an experienced shooter firing 9mm & 5.56mm. Not

As soon as anyone posts videos of Hickock as proof of anything I vomit a little in my mouth.

Anybody with any time behind a gun knows that there are too many variables to deal with to make any sort of rational judgement on something like "muzzle flip" by watching a few videos of that old geezer. For starters, it's blatant that he's not even holding the guns the same in both videos, which would be a basic requirement of evaluating muzzle rise on the two guns. I mean, come on...this is grade school stuff.

Show me a video of the same person, holding the same gun (or guns set up similarly), holding it the same way, with information on the ammo used, from a camera angle that can even evaluate muzzle rise, with a backdrop of a color that contrasts the gun and preferably has horizontal lines for reference. Something like this (skip to 3:10 if you want). This video is useful. Hickock is not.


And that video brings up another good point....Anyone who has any muzzle rise at all with an AR ONLY has muzzle rise because he wants to. You can build a 5.56 AR with NO muzzle rise and you can build a .40 pistol with NO muzzle rise, so the whole debate is kinda silly.

This is a S&W 16" gun that I carry daily and it has almost no muzzle rise (and it's not even a "race gun").

____________________________________

Or rather than watching all those videos a better option is to ask the advise of a known good guy (TWR) and ignore the ramblings of a known troll (sherp).

This approach will save you a lot of time and keep you from having to watch old men miss steel on youtube.

I showed videos of guns set up similarly being fired by the same person and filmed from roughly the same spot. Looked the same as what I observed firsthand. How does your videos showing guns not set up the same way back up your claims?

And how am I a troll exactly? I support all officers doing as they please just like you do and you do not call yourself a troll.

LOL

Whew! You had me going there for a minute! I was beginning to think I had the wrong person! Glad we attack the same people here as being cop haters for posting stories about officers raping women during traffic stops and so on. The only real difference between you and me is you get to assist your fellow officers at the scene which probably does make you support them even more when someone here attempts to slander them over that stuff.

Blue, which brake do you have on that S&W?

It's a Battlecomp. It actually overcomes a little bit and can force the muzzle to dip if you get too aggressive with your grip and stance. I've also got a VLTOR A5 setup on it with an H3 buffer, which made a big difference in how it "recoiled" too.

Thanks Blue. Just trying to decide what to put on the end of "my wife's" new Sig brace rig.

Ding ding ding, we have another winner!! So many people worry about what they can hang on their muzzle to control things but paying attention to the bolt speed etc can make far more difference in how smooth a gun shoots. I ran a dot on a pistol for a while and the springs and load had more effect on the smoothness of the pistol than the muzzle device.

I hear you VI. I know Blue likes SpringCo springs.

What do you like in a pistol set up?

Or say something with a 10 1/2 barrel and a carbine gas?

I have been liking just a thread protector these days. it makes the gun shorter I can have a 2" longer barrel for roughly the same weight and length. less blast is definitely a plus. I hate shooting next to all the wannabe sniper ninjas who have some kind of device on the end of their gun that puts sound and blast all across the shooting benches. a 223 does not recoil much at all.

Buffers and brakes aren't about recoil...as in "dang that thing kicks a lot". They're about maintaining your sight picture and controlling muzzle rise....as in "I was able to spot my miss at 475 and adjust for the wind" or "dang how did Bluedreaux get two hits that fast?!?!? He's AMAZING!!!"

Sorry for the late reply, when I referred to pistols I was talking race guns, mostly in .38 super.

I tried the 10" 5.56 and quickly gave it up, Im just to much of a whimp to deal with that kind of blast on a regular basis. Even go to a 14" tube makes it much more reasonable.

Brian Enos forum had a sticky for a while on tuning a gun and load with springs for best performance and it was an excellent read. He is a huge proponent of smoothing up the cycle of the gun as the #1 means of enhancing control.