I've been thinking about this for a while and the recent post asking for advice on a "tactical" rifle brought it up again.
I think that a decade of war (sending back a whole new generation of young trigger pullers) and the crazy popularity of 3Gun shooting in the last few years has really started to blur the lines between "tactical" and "competition" and "hunting / plinking" ARs.
Take for example the BCM Haley Jack Carbine. Travis Haley was an active duty Marine for 15 years (Recon) and this is the AR he wanted his name on....
14.5" Mid-Length Gas
Free float rail
Hybrid Compensator
ALG Trigger
I've done a fair amount of 3Gun shooting and done well at national level matches. I've also carried an AR professionally for around the last eight years.
I can tell you that for 90% of 3Gunners that Jack Carbine would do all they ever needed (and with a different trigger I'd make that 95%). It's also nearly identical to what I carry at work (mine has a 16" barrel, but I'd prefer his).
And it seems like a lot of the time when we give advice on here about what makes a good hunting rifle it would be pretty similar to that rifle too, but some prefer a longer barrel for hunting.
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We are quick to recommend "buy a Colt and shoot it to figure out what you want", and that's not bad advice, and it's advice that I've given myself. But I've started changing that thinking a little. I'm all about shooting being more important than gear-buying and went all of 2014 without buying ANYTHING sort of AR related gear, just ammo.
But IME, people will shoot more when they enjoy shooting more. And they'll enjoy shooting more when their AR in pleasant to shoot and hits what they're aiming at. I've started recommending some sort of 1-4 over irons or dots because in general people can't hit anything without magnification. And if they can't hit, they won't want to go to the range.
That's why I've also started recommending a trigger upgrade. The ALG ACT trigger can be had for $60 and is, to me, a great improvement over every factory trigger I've pulled. Sure, a well-worn factory trigger will be just as good. But if people don't enjoy shooting then they won't ever wear that factory trigger in.
I also recommend spending a few minutes and a few dollars correctly buffering an AR. I can't tell you how many people I've had shoot my rifle and hand it back to me saying, "Wow, that feels GREAT." And they've all racked their AR and shot mine instead. I can't help but believe that those guys would be shooting their ARs a lot more if they just enjoyed them more.
And IME people shoot better with a longer-than-carbine-length handrail. Free float or not, when exposed to a longer handrail people seem to shoot better when they're not so cramped.
yep.
This one blurs things a little, with fancy 18" barrel, rifle gas, long rail, and SSA trigger.
I still may tinker a bit more with it, not to mention load development, but it's a little handier than my bull barreled 20". Fun rifle to shoot, and could do a lot of different things.
I agree. Seems to me that most of the difference between good hunting and tactical AR's is in the optics and other accessories you mount on it.
I'd be interested in hearing some details about how you go about correctly buffering your ARs. Mine shoot pretty soft so I haven't bothered to mess with them, but improvments are always welcome.
I agree this is a nice idea, I upgrade the trigger in all my guns, for $2100 the barrel is what?
Man everybody has a Noveske priced gun, are the components worth the money?
The Daniel Mk12 barrel is 1 in 7" stainless, cold hammer forged, and nitrided - "fancy"
The problem with suggesting things, is you never know what they are after.
Bottom line though I agree on basics. A GOOD trigger NEVER hurts.
Irons take desire to shoot well. Very FEW folks have desire to do anything that takes effort, they want the Mc Donalds route out... that means scopes.
The short guns seemingly take folks a bit more to master, even though IMHO there is no real mechanical difference. But I"m against collapsible stocks for beginners.
Of course that takes me back to what the normal AR was... 20 inches, but put optics on a flat top instead of irons... is best to start with.
While at it, get a trigger and float it, what the heck.. and again FMJ is not ammo. Well it isn't but it isn't much...
I have not looked at RRA books lately, when you have as many ARs and lowers as we have you tend not to keep up with goings on.... but I suspect that they would have something factory to fit the bill, trigger being the one thing that still could use some work or replacing, even the NM versions of the triggers.
There is no need to go the Wilson La Rue type route right away.
Don't you have a buffering article done somewhere? That can be important for folks. Though IMHO the 5.56 doesn't have recoil to start with, but smooth can make it even more fun.
I think you're going to be hard pressed to get most guys who haven't owned an AR and are debating taking the plunge to drop $2k on their first rifle. Most guys are hard pressed to drop $1k for something they aren't quite sure about.
Ol Jack copied me
This one blurs things a little, with fancy 18" barrel, rifle gas, long rail, and SSA trigger.
Fun rifle to shoot, and could do a lot of different things.
Exactly.
If you put your new Mk6 on it, that'd be rockin 3Gun rifle. Or with a 3-9 a great hunting rifle, or with a 3-18 a precision rifle.
Mine had a different rail, but that's a near duplicate of my first 3Gun AR.
I agree this is a nice idea, I upgrade the trigger in all my guns, for $2100 the barrel is what?
Man everybody has a Noveske priced gun, are the components worth the money?
I wouldn't pay near $2100 for that gun, or a Noveske. A good chunk of that money is paying for the Haley name, for those that care about such stuff he's a pretty big deal.
I think you're going to be hard pressed to get most guys who haven't owned an AR and are debating taking the plunge to drop $2k on their first rifle. Most guys are hard pressed to drop $1k for something they aren't quite sure about.
I just threw that Jack Carbine up as an example of what real live gunfighters are promoting, not necessarily as an example of what to buy. I sure wouldn't buy it.
But you can nearly duplicate it for a lot, lot less. And that's what I'd recommend.
I'd be interested in hearing some details about how you go about correctly buffering your ARs. Mine shoot pretty soft so I haven't bothered to mess with them, but improvments are always welcome.
Im happy to hear what you have and offer an over the Internet guess as to what might help. But if what you have shoots soft now my first recommendation would be to leave it alone. If you change one thing it can affect others and sometimes you can create more problems than you solve, trying to get it juuuuuuuuust right.
I'd be interested in hearing some details about how you go about correctly buffering your ARs. Mine shoot pretty soft so I haven't bothered to mess with them, but improvments are always welcome.
Im happy to hear what you have and offer an over the Internet guess as to what might help. But if what you have shoots soft now my first recommendation would be to leave it alone. If you change one thing it can affect others and sometimes you can create more problems than you solve, trying to get it juuuuuuuuust right.
The one I'd be interested in tuning is a 16" 223 Wylde, mid-length gas, FA BCG, but will have to pull the buffer out to check what it is. Whatever comes in a lower parts kit, probably a standard carbine buffer?
the only thing I don't get is the 14.5 inch barrel with pinned brake, it surely makes the gun easier to use if getting it in and out of cars like a patrolman would have to do, but 18 inches total length with brake cannot be that much worse.
On the other hand, wish they sold the barrel separate
Whose barrel?
You can check the buffer weight by just opening up the upper / lower and looking at the face of it. Unmarked is carbine weight, everything else will be stamped "H", "H2", etc. It depends on the LPK but it's probably a carbine weight.
A cyber guess would be to try an H buffer if you wanted to change it out. Get it dirty, load some mags with one round each and see if the bolt will lock back on an empty chamber. Use the weakest ammo you ever plan on shooting.
Shoot it back to back with the carbine buffer and see if you can feel a difference. Try it offhand and see if you can SEE a difference between the two while looking through your sights at the target (as it fires and recoils).
reduce felt recoil, improve reliability, reduce bolt carrier speed, reduce wear on parts, reduce shock and vibration to optics, and suppress bolt bounce with this simple drop-in replacement. Designed for AR-15 rifles with a collapsible stock. This buffer has a piston that is hydraulically dampened to absorb the shock of impact from the bolt carrier's rearward motion and to prevent bolt bounce as a new cartridge is chambered. You will feel less recoil and smoother operation with this buffer and you will see less movement of your sights during recoil for faster shot to shot recovery time.
advertised right here, problem solved for $110!
the only thing I don't get is the 14.5 inch barrel with pinned brake, it surely makes the gun easier to use if getting it in and out of cars like a patrolman would have to do, but 18 inches total length with brake cannot be that much worse.
Those BCM 14.5" barrels not only give you an advantage of being shorter, they're also incredibly smooth shooting. You have more blast than an 18" gun obviously, because it's closer to your face, but it's about as easy shooting as an 18" rifle gas barrel.
Getting a rifle out of a patrol car rack is a pain, because of all the other stuff in the car. But unless you go full on SBR, a pinned 14.5" isn't a huge advantage IMO.
On the other hand, wish they sold the barrel separate
You can get that upper with everything but the rail (which I wouldn't want anyway) for $565. BCM is offering a free BCG with every upper purchase.
You could nearly duplicate that rifle for $1000.
So on the money with all the comments here. I feel people tend to go so heavy in one direction to make a platform "better" at something when it severely compromises the other uses the rifle could see.
I do wish I had gone with a pinned 14.5 simply because with the new car and vertical mounts every inch counts. I have to keep my stock fully collapsed just to get it out in a timely manner. My rifle was built along the concepts of the Jack carbine for about $800 and I have not found it lacking in anyway for a patrol rifle.
I started out with a flat top and regular hand guards, then went the Hogue tube/Jewell trigger route with an A2 stock. Killed lots of critters with it. Then I saw new designs and started trying pretty near everything I could find to build the perfect AR.
Found lots of "marketing" and a few truly innovative upgrades but it all boils down to an accurate barrel gassed and buffered right, everything else is subjective to whatever your heart desires.
What I did find out was a 14.5" barrel is the last thing I want due to a velocity loss of almost 100 fps over a 16" barrel. If you need shorter, go shorter. Don't waste my time with an inch and a half.
The Jack carbean reminds me of the "Jack of all trades, master of none". But marketing is just that.
I agree with Blue on the ALG combat trigger. I have them on all my ARs. I'm used to 3.5-4 lb single stage triggers on bolt guns and that ALG feels great. I just can't see paying more when it works so well for $60.
Looking back, I think the best thing for a beginner is a rough, gritty, heavy, factory trigger. A crappy trigger will make a shooter work for tiny groups and understand that accuracy doesn't come from a new trigger, high powered scope, or free float rail. Trying to tell someone that isn't easy though as everyone was born a marksman and few are willing to fix the real problem when they can cover it with a bandaid.
As for the rifle configuration above, thats pretty much what I like, although I think the 14.5" barrel length is dumb. The AR has come a long way since the Colt 6920 and there are better options. The problem is there are so many options its just easier to tell someone to start out with a good base rifle and let them learn from there. If someone doesn't like AR's after they shoot a good one, there is something wrong with them. A new trigger and handguard ain't gonna fix it.
I had a conversation with 3 old geezer's such as myself last night at a Church meeting and the subject was Golf Clubs. Let's say in the kindest manner that the controversy over which club and why was similar to the conversations we have here. I walked away from that table with a different perspective. Unless your a pro and hit a driver to produce a 90MPH ball, the differences between Golf clubs for everyone not a pro are in mostly in your head. The standard advice of a Colt 6920 and an Aimpoint T1 in a QD LaRue mount plus a decent 3-9 something or whatever scope in the QD LaRue mount is really at the limits of my capability along with probably 90% of the gun golfers here and 99.9999% of the guys wanting to buy their first set of clubs and "get into the game". At past the Colt 6920 limit I now think (my opinion) we are (provided some sort of light mount), talking about ergo's and likes/want's, and of couse its our right to waste money as we see fit!
The LaRue is an expensive addition to a base rifle when there are other choices that work as well for less... I think its one of those top line golf clubs... just IMHO.
PEPR has let mroe than a few of us shoot tiny groups...as has a WOP base...
How does the PEPR do when you remove it to shoot irons and remount it? I have faith in my LaRue mounts as well as the ADM. The PEPR is $100 or more for the QD version and the LaRue is $210, ADM is $175, I'll pay the difference to KNOW my scope is still zeroed.
Again, start with a good 16 or 18" barrel and buy what suits your style, I like 2 stage triggers, SOPMOD stocks that adjust to fit and skinny float tubes but someone else might be wrong and that's ok!
LOL, we all run differently... my guns either run irons or optics. I see no need for the use of both.
If I take a PEPR off, its to put a different scope on the gun, and likely change its zero's and ammo at the same time.
I don't see the need for the majority of folks to swap back and forth either.
BUT if thats the case, you should go whole hog or check the mounts.
FWIW I"ve used a couple of other mounts over the years, can't actually call the names other than the leatherwood, and if you watch the way you put it back on, it was usually within a 3-6 inches of return if not on. This at 300 which was my group testing range distance. I personally think a LOT of making them return to zero is snugging in the slots before tightening the "bolts" down. Regardless of mount.
Maybe if it warms up I'll go play with one of mine and get back as to how it does on retunring.
Still makes me laugh thinking that who wiht a deer rifle would take their scope off and on, and what prompts someone with an AR to do the same but works for you, its good for me.
think back 100 years. A Mauser 98, or a Springfield started blurring the lines between tactical, competition and hunting rifles.....
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The Daniel Mk12 barrel is 1 in 7" stainless, cold hammer forged, and nitrided - "fancy"
More or less a near perfect gun for all things other than a dedicated vehicle gun, IMO..........
I don't want a short barrel for hunting either, gives up too much velocity.
MM
Didn't figure you to be so narrow minded...
I used to swap an Aimpoint for a scope and back when conditions required it. Still pop the scope off and practice with irons too.
The perfect AR-15
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Noooo.....My nearly identical AR is the perfect AR!!!
Uhh, yeah, No. The PEPR is well under $100 now. I've seen 'em in the high $'60's via internet email sales.
I was comparing the QD model.
Also seen some air soft copies out there so be careful chasing cheap.
The perfect AR-15
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My 6.8 looks like that; FDE everywhere except the receivers. I have not gotten around to getting them coated
These guys will probably go hunting next month...
Didn't figure you to be so narrow minded...
I used to swap an Aimpoint for a scope and back when conditions required it. Still pop the scope off and practice with irons too.
LOL not narrow minded, just have different ARs for different purposes if htat makes sense.
I guess I can see it if you have one or two, but that generally doesn't enter my mind.... my last "purchase" was what most would consider a considerable amount of lowers... LOL.
I don't much like swapping stuff on and off.
Makes sense though now the way you put it. And I've about given up on red dots after some bad issues with them hunting in teh woods. Have about gone to magnified optics or irons and nothing between.
But I bet my eyes get me on the irons eventually.
I'm going to follow Mav's advice and try a new buffer in my buttstock.
Travis
Two things that makes a great AR greater is a good barrel and trigger, everything else is just Christmas Decorations
Spoken as someone who doesn't know how an AR works.
I swap scopes all the time, guess that is why I like the LaRue mounts, in the end if your shooting expensive bullets, it might be cheaper just to buy a return to zero mount. Then let's say your scope take a crap, and your using a cheap mount, its just one more variable to figure out. Confidence in your equipment was never cheap.
The lines started blurring a long time ago when a certain American military unit started (re) realizing that they weren't the top shooters, nor close. The only difference between paper, steel, and flesh is the emotion we put into it- the guns don't know the differance.
There's about 30,000 words here for those with an inkling......
From the first Carbon fiber freefloat handguards to the MK12, to the KAC MRE, to the MK12 Hollands, to the present Block II M4's, there's been a steady progression..... Irons, Aimpoints, EoTech's, magnifiers, 1-4x's, 1-6x's, etc....
Even the Marine Corps is coming on board- looking at 16 or 18in barreled M16's with collapsible stocks, extended freefloats rails, Giessele triggers, and muzzle brakes. Yes- muzzle brakes.
As for barrel length make mine 14.5in please. I can do 16's, but all considered the 14.5in is the sweet spot...
An extended freefloat rail is the biggest upgrade that can be done to an AR/M4.
And is the first thing I would do to one. Yes- before a trigger, or even an optic.
What buffer would you guys run in a 16" mid-length?
It depends on how big the port is but I run H2's in mine.
Jeff you can carry a red dot and have flip up irons a lot easier than carrying extra guns.
My first AR-15. It came as one those 11.5 inch Bushys with the silly long flash hiders. First thing was cutting off the charge handle and building a custom scope mount then a new 16 inch barrel.
Next was free float handguard, rifle buffer system, mounted light, Jewel 2 stage and proper sling. Notice drop chart taped to optic. Over 20 years ago.
Current AR setup is really just refinements on the theme. Middy gas, Geissele trigger, better light, better sling, better buttstock, better handguard, better barrel, custom Drop Compensating Turret, ect. As such it is more accurate and reliable but the form factor is pretty similar to what I had over 2 decades ago.
Blue is spot on and in todays world there are a bunch of better choices for the first time AR buyer than a 6920 if they actually want to use the gun.
It depends on how big the port is but I run H2's in mine.
What do you mean port? If it helps any, mine is a BCM govt profile BFH barrel.
"port" ....
The hole in the barrel to feed gas down the tube to cycle the action.
It depends on how big the port is but I run H2's in mine.
What do you mean port? If it helps any, mine is a BCM govt profile BFH barrel.
I'd get an H buffer for midlength or H2 for carbine gas, most likely. BCM barrels are pretty mildly gassed.
I use as heavy a buffer as the gun will lock the bolt back on an empty mag. It surprised me that my mid length Noveske actually needed an H2 to run properly.
A Daniel Defense carbine gassed I had needed only an H buffer.
It must lock the bolt back on an empty mag and eject spent cases at 4:00 It all depends on the port size. But you'll really feel the difference when shooting off hand.
I see the targets are you saying they took a single gun, shot it without a free float rail, then installed a free float rail on the identical gun and shot it again?
Yes. That was a single standard issue Colt M4A1 with KAC Rail. 10 shots from 10 different positions at two different distances. A drop in freefloat rail was installed on the same gun and the exact same sequence repeated. Same lot of ammo.
As far as MOA groups size is concerned- it took the 100% hit rate on an 8 inch target from 30 something meters to over 200 on that gun.
Multiple randomly selected M4's were tested in the exact same manor. Shooters ranged from new members still in training to extremely high level competitors.
The gun I shot went from a 100% hit rate (again group size) on an 8 inch target of something like 68 meters, to 290 something meters.
Jeff you can carry a red dot and have flip up irons a lot easier than carrying extra guns.
LOL, anything I can do wiht a dot I can do with irons.... but magnified optics can trump that.
I carry a gun for the job at hand, generally no spares.. LOL. they stay in the safe.
I could see the use for the qd mounts though for when the zombies get here. Grins.
Yes. That was a single standard issue Colt M4A1 with KAC Rail. 10 shots from 10 different positions at two different distances. A drop in freefloat rail was installed on the same gun and the exact same sequence repeated. Same lot of ammo.
As far as MOA groups size is concerned- it took the 100% hit rate on an 8 inch target from 30 something meters to over 200 on that gun.
Multiple randomly selected M4's were tested in the exact same manor. Shooters ranged from new members still in training to extremely high level competitors.
The gun I shot went from a 100% hit rate (again group size) on an 8 inch target of something like 68 meters, to 290 something meters.
Same target for NTIT. Buddy ran a stock colt and would have 100 percent hit rate with a sling, no float tube, at 600 yards with irons. Granted match ammo tweaked for the gun.
But then again he knew how to use the sling.
I still won't rate a float tube as number one. BUT I think I do have only one gun thats not floated.... WTF, floating can be done for 100 bucks or less last time I looked. Like you can get an RRA trigger for 75ish... I mean maybe not the best either one, but both are definitely not negatives.
LOL, anything I can do wiht a dot I can do with irons....
I would almost agree except for right before dark. Irons are no fun at dusk.
Time to move to optics for me. Dots dont do me much good if I can see them but not the target. if I can see the target, and its dark I'd just as soon have optics.
Of course the tritium ghost ring and front post with irons don't hurt anything much when its dark.
Really should qualify some of these threads as plinking, target, hunting, imagined SHTF, or imagined I'm in the military and have to provide my own firearm and ammo, to save my life and fight with...
It's easy to tell who the 'kiddies' are; first thing they do is mount a friggin scope! I'm 'old school' and I still see the irons quite well. In original configuration the AR sights are set up for the vision of an 18 year old because of the short sight radius. It was obviously clear to old heads when this rifle was first adopted by the military that the designer thereto didn't know jack schitt about what makes for accurate shooting!!
IMO having the front sight attached atop the gas block is akin to sitting on the commode to take a dump and then realizing that you're out of crap paper!
If the front sight had been attached out farther on the barrel accurate shooting would be much easier!!
Hey Form, which Go-Pro is that on your helmet.
Thanks.
Travis
It's easy to tell who the 'kiddies' are; first thing they do is mount a friggin scope! I'm 'old school' and I still see the irons quite well.
Why do you have a scope on top of that beloved .308 of yours?
Travis
Still trying to wrap my head around it I have both with float and without float. I don't see such a huge difference. Here is what I am thinking. Hand loads make a shooter out of any gun if you work at. Maybe I need to mess with Some 855 and see what it does float vs no float
The lines started blurring a long time ago when a certain American military unit started (re) realizing that they weren't the top shooters, nor close. The only difference between paper, steel, and flesh is the emotion we put into it- the guns don't know the differance.
There's about 30,000 words here for those with an inkling......
From the first Carbon fiber freefloat handguards to the MK12, to the KAC MRE, to the MK12 Hollands, to the present Block II M4's, there's been a steady progression..... Irons, Aimpoints, EoTech's, magnifiers, 1-4x's, 1-6x's, etc....
Even the Marine Corps is coming on board- looking at 16 or 18in barreled M16's with collapsible stocks, extended freefloats rails, Giessele triggers, and muzzle brakes. Yes- muzzle brakes.
As for barrel length make mine 14.5in please. I can do 16's, but all considered the 14.5in is the sweet spot...
An extended freefloat rail is the biggest upgrade that can be done to an AR/M4.
And is the first thing I would do to one. Yes- before a trigger, or even an optic.
That is really interesting!
No shaved gas block or skinny gas block, just the extended free float rail to keep hand guard pressure off the barrel. Quite a difference.
And, assembly must have been interesting.
Still trying to wrap my head around it I have both with float and without float. I don't see such a huge difference. Here is what I am thinking. Hand loads make a shooter out of any gun if you work at. Maybe I need to mess with Some 855 and see what it does float vs no float
More than likely the huge difference is not using the bench rest correct or running sling tension on a non floated gun.
855 is what it is, IMHO you don't make it better simply by floating the gun. The projectile is the problem, its mass produced for speed, not for accuracy.
BUT I have been wrong before.
I simply have not seen a huge amount of difference until you put slings on the guns. But I can count the times I've shot a gun without a good barrel on it, and with FMJ ammo on both hands and feet and have digits left over. Played the load ball bullets with care thing for a bit till I realized the bullets were the problem.. not the rest of the "load" hence the use of mexican match so common for years.
It's easy to tell who the 'kiddies' are; first thing they do is mount a friggin scope! I'm 'old school' and I still see the irons quite well. In original configuration the AR sights are set up for the vision of an 18 year old because of the short sight radius. It was obviously clear to old heads when this rifle was first adopted by the military that the designer thereto didn't know jack schitt about what makes for accurate shooting!!
IMO having the front sight attached atop the gas block is akin to sitting on the commode to take a dump and then realizing that you're out of crap paper!
If the front sight had been attached out farther on the barrel accurate shooting would be much easier!!
Amazing what could have been done with the sight out front. In the meantime with the sight in the wrong place the AR has eclipsed almost every M14/M1 Garand record out there in service rifle. Including 1000 yards. Firing the first ever perfect 1000 yard score that had never been done before.
And then we learned to play with aperture size and front post size on the AR and bingo, it works easy for even older eyes.
As to mounting scopes first, thats the first thing I do... test ammo with the least variables... then zero the irons.
Rost,
What would've happened to his groups had he released all sling tension for some of those rounds? How about if he rested the mag on the ground, or shoot off a hood of a vehicle, or around a barricade?
Hey Form, which Go-Pro is that on your helmet.
Thanks.
Travis
The see in the dark model. grin.
Still trying to wrap my head around it I have both with float and without float. I don't see such a huge difference. Here is what I am thinking. Hand loads make a shooter out of any gun if you work at. Maybe I need to mess with Some 855 and see what it does float vs no float
Ammo has nothing to do with it. MK262 was used for the tests.
The guns were zeroed by each shooter off of a bench. Then 2x10 round groups were fired at 100 and 200 off the bench as the control. Then 10 round were fired from 10 different alternate positions. Ie- 1 shot mag mono podded, 1 shot off a hood, 1 off a barricade, 1 with a vertical fore grip, 1 with a flashlight added, 1 with a Peq15 mounted, 1 with a tight sling, etc. Then the forends were swapped, guns were rezeroed and the whole thing was repeated.
The differance in group size between floated and non float off the bench ranged between .5 MOA and 2 MOA. The newer shooters had the most deviation presumably due to inconsistencies in hold. The best shooters showed little difference. Again off the bench. Once the alternate positions were shot the differences were huge.
That specific test was about more than just handguards, but for a field gun, a FF handguard is probably the best investment one can make.
You did not take my bait.
I hereby deduct 10 points. Or somethin'...
Travis
Dang it. Throw the rope out again. I can do it!
It's easy to tell who the 'kiddies' are; first thing they do is mount a friggin scope! I'm 'old school' and I still see the irons quite well. In original configuration the AR sights are set up for the vision of an 18 year old because of the short sight radius. It was obviously clear to old heads when this rifle was first adopted by the military that the designer thereto didn't know jack schitt about what makes for accurate shooting!!
IMO having the front sight attached atop the gas block is akin to sitting on the commode to take a dump and then realizing that you're out of crap paper!
If the front sight had been attached out farther on the barrel accurate shooting would be much easier!!
Amazing what could have been done with the sight out front. In the meantime with the sight in the wrong place the AR has eclipsed almost every M14/M1 Garand record out there in service rifle. Including 1000 yards. Firing the first ever perfect 1000 yard score that had never been done before.
And then we learned to play with aperture size and front post size on the AR and bingo, it works easy for even older eyes.
As to mounting scopes first, thats the first thing I do... test ammo with the least variables... then zero the irons.
I KNEW I could poke a stick in your eye with that one!
There's a helluva big difference betwixt shooting competition and combat! And we don't need to discuss the overall impact force delivered by the old '06 round or even the 7.62 NATO at 1000 yards. That's a moot point.
It's easy to tell who the 'kiddies' are; first thing they do is mount a friggin scope! I'm 'old school' and I still see the irons quite well.
Why do you have a scope on top of that beloved .308 of yours?
Travis
Pretty simple really! It's NOT a combat type rifle!!
very interesting thread on upgrades. the only thing i've done to this gun is slap a can and light on it. can't even remember the last time i cleaned it, yet somehow it manages to kill stuff.
i like the golf club analogy. reminds me of buying my last truck. salesman invited me to look under the hood. i told him i didn't care what the engine looked like and hoped i never had to look at it. i just want to drive it.
i'm too dumb to offer anything informative here, so i’ll just contribute a kill pic.
and just in case this turns into a dpms thread...
OK, now I understand. Off the bench it may not matter that much, from various field positions the FF can make a difference, again regards how you torque the fore arm, or what its rested on or against.
DJones, what does that hog weight in the last picture?
What Jeff does not want to mention is that the little bullets actually stuck in the targets at 1000 yards and did not penetrate...
https://m.youtube.com/verify_age?next=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dtku8YI68-JA%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&client=mv-google
What Jeff does not want to mention is that the little bullets actually stuck in the targets at 1000 yards and did not penetrate...
https://m.youtube.com/verify_age?next=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dtku8YI68-JA%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&client=mv-google
Thats why it took so long to mark the target after each shot. They had to pull the bullet and make a hole for the spotter spindle. LOL.
Rost,
What would've happened to his groups had he released all sling tension for some of those rounds? How about if he rested the mag on the ground, or shoot off a hood of a vehicle, or around a barricade?
Hey Form, which Go-Pro is that on your helmet.
Thanks.
Travis
The see in the dark model. grin.
Still trying to wrap my head around it I have both with float and without float. I don't see such a huge difference. Here is what I am thinking. Hand loads make a shooter out of any gun if you work at. Maybe I need to mess with Some 855 and see what it does float vs no float
Ammo has nothing to do with it. MK262 was used for the tests.
The guns were zeroed by each shooter off of a bench. Then 2x10 round groups were fired at 100 and 200 off the bench as the control. Then 10 round were fired from 10 different alternate positions. Ie- 1 shot mag mono podded, 1 shot off a hood, 1 off a barricade, 1 with a vertical fore grip, 1 with a flashlight added, 1 with a Peq15 mounted, 1 with a tight sling, etc. Then the forends were swapped, guns were rezeroed and the whole thing was repeated.
The differance in group size between floated and non float off the bench ranged between .5 MOA and 2 MOA. The newer shooters had the most deviation presumably due to inconsistencies in hold. The best shooters showed little difference. Again off the bench. Once the alternate positions were shot the differences were huge.
That specific test was about more than just handguards, but for a field gun, a FF handguard is probably the best investment one can make.
Actually nothing with my buddy. His sling without a float tube was tied off to the barrel nut in front of the mag well basically.... easy enough to rig that way with a web sling. And the other varying positions, no difference because he is a shooter and knows how to deal with things, other than neither of us would ever rest on a mag... would rather use the sling if we had to do a mag rest...
Though a BIL used the mag rest a few times trying to cheat at a couple of matches and I asked.... said his impact never varied. Hard to believe for me, but I never did see him touch his rear sight.
I'd think that most of the variation would be shooter error, BUT shooter error won't go away from floated to not, so the error would be there but evidently the consistency gets better.
Its like my arguing that bedded rifles shoot better than non in the AR. They do. I shot enough groups to prove it. Not much better. But some. And much more round groups then once bedded...
Not enough to worry until you get good though.
But as noted, bottom line, float tubes are cheap, I'm betting you can find an ebay one for 50-75 bucks.... why not....
I'd take a good barrel ANY day over a float tube though. Trigger doesn't really matter, you can shoot just about as good with a crappy one as a great one, that is mostly in the head... but they make it eaiser to shoot well... a good trigger that is.
DJones, what does that hog weight in the last picture?
i haven't weighed hogs in a long time, but i'd guess under 200lbs. haven't shot a big one in a while. this one's probably a little over 200lbs. i make them look a lot bigger by putting the camera close to the ground. btw - i steadied the rifle by resting the magazine on the hood
The key words are "different shooting positions". Non floated barrels shoot just as well when all shots are the same and the shooter does everything the same. The free float allows for different pressures from different positions.
Pretty simple really! It's NOT a combat type rifle!!
So you need an optic to help you kill deer more easily?
Travis
LOL, anything I can do wiht a dot I can do with irons.... but magnified optics can trump that.
No you can't.
Travis
The free float allows for different pressures from different positions.
NO WAY?!?!?!?!?
Travis
I know... who'd of thunk it?
(That's what I get for answering jimmyp's post on page 3 without seeing there was a page 4.)
LOL, anything I can do wiht a dot I can do with irons.... but magnified optics can trump that.
No you can't.
Travis
Yes I can. Jeff
Yes. That was a single standard issue Colt M4A1 with KAC Rail. 10 shots from 10 different positions at two different distances. A drop in freefloat rail was installed on the same gun and the exact same sequence repeated. Same lot of ammo.
As far as MOA groups size is concerned- it took the 100% hit rate on an 8 inch target from 30 something meters to over 200 on that gun.
Multiple randomly selected M4's were tested in the exact same manor. Shooters ranged from new members still in training to extremely high level competitors.
The gun I shot went from a 100% hit rate (again group size) on an 8 inch target of something like 68 meters, to 290 something meters.
Same target for NTIT. Buddy ran a stock colt and would have 100 percent hit rate with a sling, no float tube, at 600 yards with irons. Granted match ammo tweaked for the gun.
But then again he knew how to use the sling.
I still won't rate a float tube as number one. BUT I think I do have only one gun thats not floated.... WTF, floating can be done for 100 bucks or less last time I looked. Like you can get an RRA trigger for 75ish... I mean maybe not the best either one, but both are definitely not negatives.
A standard M4 barrel is 0.640 under the handguards and is pretty sensitive to pressure even with the short carbine handguards.
A factory HBAR Colt might be 0.900 under the handguard.
While a FF handguard is great idea it benefits the lighter barrel contours more than the heavies. Yea I know, in other news water is wet.
Good point John. Never had a light barrel like that. Of course I'm of the opinion that even on run of hte mill bolt guns you are better off not to rest towards the tip of the stock if possible, but towards the mag well if possible... I have no clue if my thinking is off or on, but its done everything I ask of it.
Of course bedded and floated in an Mc means nothing much really matters...
And even then, floated and bedded, impacts are different slung, not slung, bipod, no bipod, free recoil so to speak or not free recoil. And the lighter the gun the more obvious it is.
Jeff,
While Service Rifle, High Power, etc., is a part of rifle marksmanship- it is a specialized form of rifle shooting that lacks a couple of significant factors in regards to practical field shooting. Namely: odd uncomfortable and generally unknown positions, tight time standards and relativley small targets that are all or nothing. Do not misunderstand me. Positional shooting is a part of basic rifle marksmanship and it combined with gun handling and gun manipulations are the foundation that (true) shooters are built on. However some things that work on a manicured rifle range do not acquit themselves so well under mental, physical and emotional stress with tight time constraints, variable lighting and small fleeting targets.
In a world where targets are not controlled by a person in the pits or calm deer feeding in a greenfield, adjusting my irons for differances in position doesn't really work. Neither does 6 o'clock holds or slinging up.
I am specifically addressing the duty use of a rifle or self protection, however it applies the same to hunting except maybe when in a stand over a greenfield.
The organization that conducted the test has shooting Standards that are based upon realistic target sizes (8in) from 7 yards to 300. Each portion is go/no-go and there is no reshoots. A single miss or string fired over time and the whole test is a failure. Time standards are tight and the positions are varried.
Mag mono podded is the fastest most stable way to make a shot from prone and induces no measurable variance in POI given proper body position and trigger control nor causes any reliability problems like so oft touted.
I'm sure you know this, but just wanted to clarify my thoughts a bit and for those reading provide a bit of perspective.
This target shows all the benched shots in pink and all the alternate position shots in white.
Pretty easy to see why in comparison to the Non-FF handguard that a FF results in more hits. Or I should say- fewer misses due to variability.
Can you say what the course of fire was? Distances and times?
An extended freefloat rail is the biggest upgrade that can be done to an AR/M4.
And is the first thing I would do to one. Yes- before a trigger, or even an optic.
Form,
Not trying to be a dick but I just don't understand the picture.
According to note written on the the targets the target with the FF handguard was shot from a bench and the standard handguard was shot from something other than a bench.
The standard handguard/other than bench is much worse than the free float handguard/benched but what is the point? Pretty sure benched is going to trump other than benched no matter what the handguard.
What am I missing?
John,
No, it's laid out wrong. Ignore what's on the white paper for the picture with two targets. It was just used to more easily track all the targets. The actual info is written on the head of each target. In the case of the picture with two targets the one on the left has-
Shooter #2
NF= non free float
Alt.= Alternate position target.
The target on the right has-
Shooter #2
FF= Freefloat
Alt.= Alternate Position target.
Both were from alternate positions.
John,
No, it's laid out wrong. Ignore what's on the white paper for the picture with two targets. It was just used to more easily track all the targets. The actual info is written on the head of each target. In the case of the picture with two targets the one on the left has-
Shooter #2
NF= non free float
Alt.= Alternate position target.
The target on the right has-
Shooter #2
FF= Freefloat
Alt.= Alternate Position target.
Both were from alternate positions.
I am with you that FF is better than non FF but the picts were not really jiving.
Now I might choose a optic first but FF is still a cheap and good (great) idea but we need to keep things in perspective.
Just keeping things real. Get a FF hanguard but also optics and a trigger. It all matters.
I get that a FF rail could help regards shooting the gun off the side of a pine tree etc.
I think AR15 type Irons are just as accurate as a red dot maybe even better, but in low light a red dot and a good flashlight seems to be better to me.
I don't see anything wrong with a good 1-X power scope on a self defense rifle but you could hunt with it as well.
Finally and here is what I want to know, could anyone shoot good enough to get those hits on that silhouette at those distances with an
AK47, and iron sights or a red dot????
Form, thanks for that info. We used to shoot a couple of side matches that were much the same.
They were very fun. Would love to be able to do those again too.
Ran into somewhat similar in IDPA stuff, and still would not rest on a mag or put a hard part of the gun directly on a hard rest. Best I could anyway. That gun was the one thats not floated that I have. Never saw anything weird there but granted it was a LOT closer range shooting. And the large target.
PS regardless all the alt positions with non trained shooters so to speak is a really good test of the complete platform and glad to see some agency doing it that way.
It's easy to tell who the 'kiddies' are; first thing they do is mount a friggin scope!
Yeah, because only kids use optics......
You'd be the first.
Travis
I am glad I am a kid again, all my guns have optics...
You'd be the first.
Travis
No problem. Jeff
I use as heavy a buffer as the gun will lock the bolt back on an empty mag. It surprised me that my mid length Noveske actually needed an H2 to run properly.
A Daniel Defense carbine gassed I had needed only an H buffer.
It must lock the bolt back on an empty mag and eject spent cases at 4:00 It all depends on the port size. But you'll really feel the difference when shooting off hand.
The advice about buffers earlier in this thread is helpful, thanks.
re. the ejection at 4:00 - I've got a 308 AR that ejects slightly forward, about 2:00. What does that indicate about gas and buffer weights? I haven't tried tuning anything yet.
Finally and here is what I want to know, could anyone shoot good enough to get those hits on that silhouette at those distances with an AK47, and iron sights or a red dot????
You'll probably hear plenty of theories, but no. Not in my experience. I have a lot of time on AK's including custom Krebs, etc. and none of them will do it. No way to free float, optic mounting is always compromised with regards to zero retention and consistently, triggers (though Geissele is working that), ammo, etc.
I'm sure that is one in existence that somewhere sometime had its rounds land near each other, but multiple examples doing it is equivalent to a Rugar Mini 14 doing it.
Can you say what the course of fire was? Distances and times?
I will ask, but right now I can not. I can say that if you take world class times (IPSC GM, Etc.) for common drills and double them, you'll be close if just a bit over.
I use as heavy a buffer as the gun will lock the bolt back on an empty mag. It surprised me that my mid length Noveske actually needed an H2 to run properly.
A Daniel Defense carbine gassed I had needed only an H buffer.
It must lock the bolt back on an empty mag and eject spent cases at 4:00 It all depends on the port size. But you'll really feel the difference when shooting off hand.
The advice about buffers earlier in this thread is helpful, thanks.
re. the ejection at 4:00 - I've got a 308 AR that ejects slightly forward, about 2:00. What does that indicate about gas and buffer weights? I haven't tried tuning anything yet.
It's over gassed and needs a heavier buffer.
I like the Ruger piston gas adjustment, mine stays on 2 and ejects to 4 O clock, with 46.5 grains of Varget and a 150.
Pretty simple really! It's NOT a combat type rifle!!
So you need an optic to help you kill deer more easily?
Travis
No Travis! I oft times use a scope to ascertain or evaluate a bucks rack since I quit shooting smaller bucks 30 years ago! Using binos is sometimes time consuming!
So you only use it to better identify your target before shooting?
Travis
It's over gassed and needs a heavier buffer.
Thanks. Sounds like ejecting forward is over gassed, and too far rearward is under gassed, is that correct?
I've been wanting to try an adjustable gas block on that 308 anyway.
So you only use it to better identify your target before shooting?
Travis
No!
So why do you use a scope?
Travis
Well...my Great Uncle is Oscar Leupold and I promised him many years ago that I'd put one of his 'devices' on a rifle!
He died HAPPY!
I'm going to start Stamp collecting and come up with a better mouse trap for "goes bump in the night." Walking down a residential hallway with a 14.5"/16"er feels like a midget with a sword... (no offense to any sword-wielding midgets here...)
I'll report back in 1-90 days, depending on how my new friends at the ATF are feeling about Stamp licking. Until then, I plan on carrying the 16" middy like a flame-thrower
-John
I held a Jack carbine in my hands today. The trigger I did not like, but better than usual, so another $230 is needed from Giessle, the float tube is very stiff compared to say a 15 inch DD LW keymod type tube, its got a light and a chrome lined barrel all for the low low price of $2395.00! I liked it for $1500 but that is as much as I liked it. The SR15 e3 mod2 is about the same money and this is better than a Colt 6940 how, the paint job, light?
I'm a fan of the concept, but for me they are a bridge between handgun and bolt gun. I seldom go far without one of these in the truck.
I'm fine buying quality, because I know me, and by the time I got something like I want it, It'd cost me more than just buying the gun I wanted in the first place..
Guess I'm on the pedestrian side o things. Good accuracy, good trigger, quick-detach optics for most things, irons for fun.
Seriously doubt (99.999%) I'll ever need a gun for competition.
If I ever need a combat rifle, God help us all as the world has turned to schit.
I mostly hunt coyotes and shoot off sticks but I've always watched the comp guys and loved how easy they make it look.
Not being a competitive guy myself, I never thought I'd enter up but I paid attention to what they used that worked and have tried to improve my own shooting both AR and pistol. Heck I even bought a timer, once I shot with one and saw that I might be a little more competitive than I thought...
Shooting from 5 yards all the way to 800 has got to make me a better game shot, if not, it sure is fun. And that's part of how the lines blurred, trying to be more versatile. The soldiers and gamers have learned from each other, the rest of us could learn a thing or two as well.
Practice never hurts.
We shot "only" NRA High Power Service Rifle.
BUT along the way we heard this cross training mantra.... and shot some rimfire silhouette, some 3 and 4 position rimfire, some bullseye( even managed 20 leg points in 3 "service" pistol matches), as many fun mathces with the AR we could find,that were various styles, IDPA, IPSC, and even shot the match rifle version of highpower with a bolt gun some, and started doing a lot of palma type shooting with both bolt and finaly service rifle.
All I can say is it was amazing what you could learn from each sport that came back not only to Service rifle, but to hunting.
Wife or I never got to the top levels in Service rifle, but we sure did ok for what we were doing at the time.
And it transferred right into the hunting fields. SO much so that the first deer I shot after getting decent with the AR, I was so surpised, I never expected the gun to go bang when it did and so quickly, but it was a perfect shot. Eye saw it, brain said WTF lets go, boom.
And even if you suck at longer distances like I did, it sure can make a 300 yard shot on something gravy... guys at the lease used to listen to the 308 whistle to impact.... they would never shoot 300-400 yards... If thats where what I needed to shoot stopped. Boom.
And I'd have never rolled a few yotes and even deer etc... on the other side of 400 without the practice...
I was fairly well tuned up when I double dinged my caribou with a 338 Win mag years ago, 802 yards both shots. Shot seemed SO easy. My old 4H shooter I had coached was my spotter, and I was going to shoot the other side of 1000 and he insisted we get closer... we did. He was amazed at the shots. ( this next part is not arrogant at all, I think that most of you that know me, know I am opinionated and strong headed but don't take it as arrogance) But.. I would have been as amazed as he was, if I had missed either shot.
It builds confidence.
Ya know... if you knew what you know now when you were 20.... or 18....
I held a Jack carbine in my hands today. The trigger I did not like, but better than usual, so another $230 is needed from Giessle, the float tube is very stiff compared to say a 15 inch DD LW keymod type tube, its got a light and a chrome lined barrel all for the low low price of $2395.00! I liked it for $1500 but that is as much as I liked it. The SR15 e3 mod2 is about the same money and this is better than a Colt 6940 how, the paint job, light?
A LOT of that $2400 price is paying for the name. I didn't mean to suggest people buy THAT rifle in particular because I sure wouldn't, but something like that is what I'd sure build.
I'd say that a Jack-like AR would be lighter and smoother shooting than a 6940, and I'd personal prefer to not have a quad rail-but that's just me.
You were clear to me, that this setup is close to somewhat ideal across the board to use for a build or buy pattern.
Not saying buy that one etc....
FWIW
Clear but I still had to go look at it. I did read some review that said theirs copy had ejection issues and it was a 2MOA or so gun.
Same set up with decent SS barrel/comp/fixed and shorter along with decent trigger would be cool.
Ejection is tuneable, but on an expensive gun should already work... 2moa with good ammo on that cost of a gun, ridiculous. Or the reviewers can't shoot.
I've never seen a 2 moa AR
And it transferred right into the hunting fields. SO much so that the first deer I shot after getting decent with the AR, I was so surpised, I never expected the gun to go bang when it did and so quickly, but it was a perfect shot. Eye saw it, brain said WTF lets go, boom.
One of the real benefits of thousands of practice rounds & competitive shooting.............
Exactly the same for me.
MM
I watched this guy milling around in some brush for several minutes, then he finally spooked and jumped across a 3' opening headed for the hills. I didn't even realize I had fired until it was all over with. I saw the opportunity and reacted before I even thought "shoot".
Now that is one more good deer! You just get him? Damn he is nice!
I got him in 2013. He's not very wide, but he's probably the only 6x6 I'll ever see in the field.
I talked my buddy into shooting a 6x6... said if he didn't I was going to.
Rationally it wasn't a great move as he was a bit too young, but I doubt he'll ever see another... and if he does maybe he'll let me....
Guess what width measures? Air...nothing.....i'll take mass and length any day...
I got him in 2013. He's not very wide, but he's probably the only 6x6 I'll ever see in the field.
I believe the blur for my lines may be like the new Noveske 16 inch rogue hunter with its 4 pound upper using their new rail. Someone tell me why a SS barreled very accurate AR made by a premier builder would NOT be something even better than the Jack carbine for a general purpose gun, the "must have" 14.5 inch pinned barrel excluded.
I agree that for a lot of people (me included) the Rogue Hunter is about ideal. I recommended one to somebody here just a few weeks ago.
But that Jack Carbine is marketed to a particular group who are pretty zealous about:
"Tier 1" trainers
BCM
In particular, BCM 14.5" mid-length guns
The CL barrel will be lighter, which is important because they're gonna have a lot of stuff hanging off the rail.
The CL barrel will last longer (which is somehow important even if you'll never ever ever shoot it enough to shoot out the barrel).
Anything Geissele.
The concept is viable and worthwhile with adjustments for each shooter. But that Jack carbine is carefully built for marketing.
how many rounds you think to shoot out the Jack barrel? I would figure at least 5000 from the Noveske polygonal stainless?
That's a tricky question because people shooting SS barrels usually have good glass and want more accuracy than most shooters. But at least 5K for what I'd need out of it.
The guys buying Jacks are doing drills between 7-100 yards, with a LOT of that being under 50 yards. For their intended purpose, that barrel will last well over 20K rounds. Long enough that they'll never have to really consider it.
You can google up "Filthy 14", a BCM AR that went over 30K rounds and still shot 2" groups at 50 yards, which is still better than most people can shoot offhand.
I agree that for a lot of people (me included) the Rogue Hunter is about ideal. I recommended one to somebody here just a few weeks ago.
That was me. I weighed it today at the shop....6lbs 4oz bare.
My lines are blurred for sure. I don't run them hard. I want something light with a stainless barrel for coyote hunting and busting steel. I'm now at the point I think I need two rifles...and that's doable. One with optics and the other with a red dot. Different purposes for each, but lots of fun with both.
My wife recently decided that my 18" Stag 3G (previously my do-all AR) was "hers". She wanted the 1-6 scope pulled off for a spare EoTech from the safe. Being a good husband I relented which really means that I found a good deal on a 16" factory built Troy Defense AR.
I only have about 300 rounds through it (it will be losing its quad rail for a keymod soon which is my only complaint) but so far it or my old Stag blur the lines for me in a "do-all" AR and there isn't much they cant do day to day.
P.S. both are sub $1500 actual cost. A few buddies have the Haley and they are very nice but easily matched/built for less.
If the barrel would do a 1/2-1MOA it would be all I could use. I would put a 1-6 on it and do a lot with it.
this is what I put on my guns, but I have always shot 1911's and AR's with a lot of oil on them.
note I think filthy 14 is a 16 inch barreled gun with a mid length gas system, not the 14.5 Haley Carbine length.
Every round that has gone down that barrel has been fired at class, with an average of approximately 1,300 rounds every three days. It has been lubed generously with Slip 2000 Extreme Weapons Lube (EWL).
What was the point of this 15-month exercise? We know than an AR built to the spec will run more reliably for a longer period of time than a hobby gun. We have run a number of guns to over 15,000 rounds without cleaning—or malfunctions—as long as they were kept well lubricated. And because we have over 20 Bravo Company guns in the armory, we also understand that the quality of one is not an accident.
The "parts is just parts" crowd will always howl about how their guns never give them any trouble so this milspec crap is just crap. Same guys that say an AK is more reliable.