Will subsonics function in a standard AR15?

Heavier bullets best in subsonics?

They may not cycle the action without opening up the gas port. A suppressor may give it enough back pressure to run.

I would be using a suppressor.

My buddies AR in 223 with the Supressor will not function with the sub-sonic loads. It becomes a single shot.
I do know that the 300 Blackout AR's will function with sub-sonic loads and a Supressor, though.

becomes a single shot, hand operated affair.

I used Hodgdon data for 55gr bullets don't recall what it was but used TrailBoss.

Mike

After market spring (weaker) available?

Remove a few coils from a stock spring?

Shorten the gas tube and relocate the gas block?

I never looked into it so am not aware.

Mike

Hoping for input from someone who attempted to make it work.

Mods tried that were not successful would be useful info.

What gas system does your gun have? Carbine, mid,or rifle.

I have all.

I would think the carbine (or even SBR) would be the best choice.

No, subs will not cycle an AR in .223. You can get an AR with standard parts to choke on light factory loads, to cycle subs would require a dedicated upper with an enlarged gas port, light buffer, light weight BCG, or a combination of those. Even if you could make it work, it wouldn't work with standard loads. If you want to shoot subs, the 300BO is the answer. Although, even then you still don't have a quiet gun.

The ballistic sense of a subsonic 223 is beyond my understanding.

I completely forgot about it but yes, there is a kit that will let you shoot subsonic loads from a AR-15 in .223. Ammo is cheap too.


http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-15-22-lr-conversion-kits-prod54549.aspx

Think 22 LR to 22 Win Mag Equivalents...with heavier bullets..

there are applications...

I have a Ruger American set up to shoot 60 grain Hornady Soft Points at an MV of 1600 fps for home defense... if someone breaks into the house...

using 6 grains of Unique...

the idea is if I have to use it, it won't be going thru walls and potentially hurting another family member...but has enough ooomph to get the job done I may need it to do...

Buy a 22 conversion kit, and choose your poison.
Same effect with just a lighter bullet.

Another reason is so that first shot is near 'Hollywood' quiet when predator calling, with a suppressor.

The cycling of the action will be loud as well. I've never heard a can that was Hollywood quiet with an AR.

I don't even get a 10.5 inch AR shooting regular loads with a can. The bullet won't upset past 25 yards or so. A suppressor on a 22 LR makes more sense.

I don't get shooting predators with subsonic loads.

I think most people need to shoot more and type less.

Subsonic loads in the .223 are a pain in the dick even with a bolt gun. I'd not bother attempting them with an AR.

Blackout would be a better option in my opinion.



Travis

I use a light load of 9 gr Unique with a 40gr VMax for a soft 223 load in the Ruger American Predator.

That load will not cycle the action in either of my AR-15s. One is a rifle gas system, the other is a carbine gas system.

Why an issue with a bolt?

For the other "22lr suppressed is better" comments, I own two 22lr cans. And yes, for those on a tight budget and wanting a suppressor, a 22lr can is the cats meow.

Winner for the most worthless comment.

Thanks

Just wasn't easy to get there.

Reduced loads, yeah. But subsonics with the heavies just didn't work out. And when I got them sub-sonic, they weren't stabilizing in an 8" twist. The lighter stuff was ok at shorter ranges, but otherwise sucked and wasn't worth the effort to me.

I ended up using the .308 for sub and super sonic stuff and it has worked really well for me.



Travis

And the Blackout has the twist for it, and companies have developed bullets specifically for this purpose as well.

What is 'shorter range'? 100yd would be fine with me (calling coyotes).

You are saying the heaviest did not stabilize regardless of twist? I have an 8" twist.

Did you try the 40gr?

All of my research to date shows subsonic in an AR15 is not doable. I don't like that result.

Another reason I want to get a subsonic to work is for full auto (fun only).

Factory ammo has been historically available in 100+gr (crazy right?) for subsonics.

Any source for these ultra heavy bullets?

Please explain why one would use a 77 or 80 gr bullet moving 900-1000 fps To shoot coyotes. I shoot a few coyotes each year with 223 and 77 gr SMK's at 2700 fps on up to a 243 AI and I've never wanted less velocity nor have I needed a quiet first shot. Most that I know who use suppressors do so with supersonic ammo and take advantage of the sound being harder to pin point. So yes shooting more and typing less would be beneficial to some.

But I'm interested in hearing how a quiet subsonic 223 could put more fur on the ground.

A subsonic 223 is at the top of the oddest idea I have heard in a while, and makes zero ballistic sense.

But go prove us wrong, I would love to see you with a pile of coyote's shot with your subsonic AR15.

I tried the 40's but they weren't quiet enough. Still had the crack when using them.

My test bed was an 8" twist. The A-Max wasn't stabilizing at sub-sonic speeds.

You could probably get decent enough accuracy to 100yds if you played with them enough. I did all my testing at the 50. I bought a threaded .308 and a threaded .223 to determine which would be easiest to use with both sub-sonics and regular loads. I found the .223 to be a waste of time and kept the .308.



Travis

Another concern with subsonic heavy loads in the .223 is getting a bullet stuck in the bore. The heavy bullets have a lot of bearing length and I think at subsonic you're treading really close to a bore obstruction.

If I was looking for a subsonic supressed game getter on the AR platform, I'd be looking at rounds with larger bores than the 300 bo, not smaller.

I can't think of anything a subsonic .223 can do better than a .22lr or .300BO. No matter what, you will have to build or buy a dedicated upper so why in the world would you stick with a .223?

As for the noise, wanting a hollywood quiet AR that cycles is not going to happen.

Personally, if I were to be hell bent at launching .22 caliber projectiles at subsonic speeds and doing so quietly, I'd get a threaded bolt action .22lr.

I'm one of those "on a budget" that decided after shooting 223, 9mm and 308 with cans, that the 22lr made the most sense if a quiet 22 caliber was my goal.

However, maybe he could use a Noveske switchblock and shut the gas off for subsonic, aimed with maybe a 45 degree offset iron dot and then turn the gas back on to shoot supersonic after changing mags and using the scope for those extra coyotes...

I doubt a switch block would even be needed. The subs probably wouldn't have enough oomph to kick the bolt back.

Hey I'm just trying to be helpful!

No if I was trying to be helpful I'd suggest the OP learn how to handle his coyotes.

(You might sense a little sarcasm in my posts.)

I should have known better ........ opinions and assumptions.

Anyway....

I'm down to needing one more can and that's for centerfire pistol. I'll be buying one that can handle the pressure of the 300 BO and more than likely setting up a 300 BO so I can kill two birds with one stone.

That's the path I'd take.



Travis

Some men when they stumble over the truth, pick themselves up and go on their way as if nothing happened at all.

To the OP's question, I'd look up the twist of the rifle in question and find the formula that tells you what is the longest bullet it can stabilize at 1000 fps. Then the question is will that bullet work acceptably well at that speed. My bet would be no. I'm sure coyotes have fallen to subsonic .22's in the past, but probably not quickly.

I tried the 223 in AR, but too much trouble and settled in 22L I have 22L, 300FB, 308, 9mm, 45 ACP, and like the most 458 Socom in 16" bolt gun and 9" AR

Or just buy a .22. Or, better yet, a suppressed 9 or .40 or .45.

what is a 300 FB?

My guess, 300 fireball, which I've never heard it referred it.

As I recall the history there was SSK's 300 whisper, and then other companies started to chamber contender barrels and make dies and SSK said the whisper name was trademarked so they called their rounds the 300-221, and then AAC came out with the 300 blackout.

Jones was at first making his 300 whisper by opening the neck of 221 Remington Fireball brass. Then people had reamers made with different names to not infringe on Jones expensive products patent. Soon found out 223 brass worked great and cheap at that time. 300/221, 300FB

I've herad that forming the brass with 221 fireball nets better accuracy...

I"m having hell with accuracy wiht my 300 whisper, but I'm anal about accuracy... supersonic no issues... I"ve no use for supersonic 300/221 use though.

And I'd sure like it to be repeatable deer accuracy to 200 yards... with 194 lehighs.. have not gotten that far yet. Works to 150 easily though so I should be happy really, but its just me....

I have a J. D. Jones, SSK .300 Whisper upper with a can on a Colt lower with aftermarket trigger. It's way too heavy, IMO.

Shooting subsonic is a pain, as some loads want to pop (go supersonic). I find it hard to stay subsonic and still have an effective load. Just my opinion.

Right now, I'm going to load supersonic rounds with 110, 125, 130 and 150 gr. bullets, as I have a good supply from years of reloading. I also have plenty of H-110, Lil'Gun and 296 to make it work. My Dillon 550B is all set up, ready to go.

the weight is about right minus the can, so I'm not using it.

DF

A good suppressed .22 is pretty cool. I really like this one.

DF

I've killed easily and quickly out to 150 yards with an MV of 900 fps, with 194 lehighs.. they are a game changing bullet. Mind you I've only shot about 10 deer/pigs with them so far, but they have worked from 900 to about 1100 fps...

I"m trying to get to a slow enough load that you avoid the unexepected pop now and then, but am not sure if I am there yet or not.

The lehighs have always expanded and doubled their diameter.

I don't think I"ve had a deer run more than about 80 yards, the last one I shot I was about 30 yards away, and it ran 20 steps appx. The one prior to it I was about 160 yards away and it made it all of about 10 steps before falling over.

I will grant you that I usually have pretty decent shot placement and that usually involves a hole in the heart quite often. Though have had some get double lung only...

Just FYI.

If going supersonic, I'll grab a better round....

Too loud.

Unless it's set up for sub-sonics.



Travis

Rost.

Have you tried the Leheigh's that utilize a .17 cal bullet in the hollow point cavity?



Travis

Quieter than a pellet gun with sub sonic ammo. The action cycling makes the most noise, a bolt gun would be even quieter.

DF

Good info.

I got disgusted and shut it down.

Will regroup with supersonics and see how that flies.

DF

I have not tried the insert ones. I think they are lighter than the 194s IIRC, and that compounds the problem...


BUT I'm not going to give up.

Bothers me that supersonic the gun is moa easily. Sub it is not.1.5 moa I could live with. 2plus moa bothers me, affects consistent drops and so on.

Thumb against the back of the bolt knob works for me,on the 10-22 if needed, but I have a 540X that needs to be threaded..... that will be a joy to shoot sub sonic... trigger tuned down around a pound. Long barrel, accurate with sub sonics...

But the 10-22 has me thinking.. can I find places to put buffers so no metal to metal slamming noises... could get even better...

Now if could put my mits on CCI sub sonic prefrag at about 1050 fps ever again....kills turkeys real dead real quick out to 100 or so which is far as I've pushed it.

With that pin thru the rear receiver that retains the bolt, works as a bolt stop, you can get a synthetic one. That helps.

DF

I sold my AR15-22 cause it was too loud and bought a T bolt that was really quiet. Hated a few things about it and sold it, been looking at a CZ but haven't committed yet.

I do however dig my Buckmark and Ruger 22-45 with TacSol barrels. The actions are quiet enough and the short barrels keeps most target ammo subsonic.

Am still thinking on a 6.8 or 300 but doubt either would be what I wanted, seems they are a lot of trouble.

shot a ruger 22 pistol years ago, guy had some device on back to flip up and lock the bolt shut.... was amazing that way.... Looking for a 22/45 threaded right now.... dealer is anyway...

Buddy bought CZ in 22 and 22 mag... likes both very much. But also said savage threaded ones with replacment stocks were not at all bad eitehr.

I was going CZ with change out barrels... and buddy reminded me that 4 guns is better than 1 gun with 4 barrels....

Got an idea who? Brownells? Thanks, Jeff

What barrel length? My buddy had a 300 whisper 9" contender pistol, and it would put three in one ragged hole at 100 yds, as I recall they were the 240 smk's, but it's been a long time since I shot it so not possitive on the bullet and that was with no can.

Just wondering if the 16" barrels don't get the powders burning consistantly enough to be accurate subsonic?

yes, 16 inch, Rem 700 factory, threaded with can.

Lil Gun, as its the quietest supposedly of the powders. Quiet and accurate are what I'm after.

I'm probably an idiot for wanting a 200 yard suppressed gun, but I've been known to be picky...

The 240s and 208 amax shoot well enough in it but they are not a hunting bullet.

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...s/10-22-recoil-buffer-pin-prod13860.aspx

Which subsonic ammo are you using? The stuff I have tried won't cycle the action.



Travis

Remington Subsonic. CCI is better if you can find it.

Mine cycles fine. I hear a faint action noise, mostly the action closing as the synthetic bolt stop is pretty quiet.

Sometimes the bullet strike makes the most noise, as in hitting something hard.

DF

I have some of that. I'll try it out.

GFY.



Travis

What subsonic ammo were you using?

DF

The CCI 1050 stuff prefrag is just really accurate in my 10-22 kidd barrel.... should not have been a tightwad in ordering it... but figured wtf, a year later some more should have popped up somewhere.

I realize its not the top seller though... so it is what it is I guess.. pretty protective of what I have left... goes to killing only, not plinking..

Goign to get that bolt stop now for sure! Thanks for that info.

CCI Quiets.



Travis

That stuff won't cycle anything. It's not typical 22LR subsonic ammo, it's more like CB Long with a heavier bullet.

Lil'Gun may be part of your problem, besides which, it's not remotely one of the quietest powders to use for a bolt gun. It is about the quietest that will cycle most AR's. In a bolt gun, try one of the fast pistol powders; I use Bullseye but most anything at the fast end of the burn rate scale will work.

As a general rule of thumb, the faster powders are quieter.

Thanks for that, H110 is louder than Lil Gun with 240s by far, so maybe I'll have to go back and play a bit...
194s I don't see data on bullseye, but you have my attention by far..

Had heard lil gun was quieter than 1680... which is what it takes for an AR to function, which really isn't an issue anymore since Im' not so sure I'll ever put the rock AR barrel upper together...

Wrong CCI ammo.

Those don't have but 700 fps, are more like a CB cap.

You want CCI Subsonic with 1050 fps.

DF

And let me know when you find a source of those.....

Yeah, decent subsonic 22LR has been really hard to find. I was never impressed with the Remington offering.

rost495, you're right on the lack of Bullseye data, since almost all published 300 Blackout data is meant to cycle an AR. Look at 300 Whisper and 300/221 data; you may not find it for that 194gr bullet, but you can find something close and work down to it. Red Dot is a good one for this too.

Remember to work down with subsonics, particularly jacketed, to avoid sticking a bullet in the barrel.

Thanks for the subsonic info Yondering and Dirtfarmer.




Travis

Y ondering, that thought crossed my mind about 4am... So i guess its a good one since you mention it, I"ll dig up data on 300/221/whisper and see what gives.

Yes on working down. I coat the bullets with UBC, and the barrel will be coated this summer, when I get time, so that will help vs sticking some.

Fastest is quietest then?

maybe should have bought 8 of Bullseye instead of 8 of H110... but you know, I may well have a jug of bullseye for rainy days... will check that one evening.

Not as cheap as they have been, but available. Haven't tried these, but would think they'd be OK.

http://www.eabco.net/RWS-SubSonic-Hollow-Point-22-LR-Ammo-50-Rnds_p_14350.html

DF

Yep, the idea is to end up with the lowest possible muzzle pressure, for minimum noise. In theory, and it seems to hold true for the most part, small charges of faster powder peak quickly and pressure drops off again for very little "pop" at the muzzle.

I've also used Unique in the 300, and it can work, although faster powders are a little quieter.

Never tried the UBC coating, although most of my subsonic shooting is with powder coated cast bullets, which are very slick anyway.

Viht N110 is quiet for subsonic 300 blackouts. Great for single shots and bolt actions. It was not 100% reliable cycling my noveske AR. I finally got my hands on AA 1680 which is what I now use reloading subsonic 300 Blackout.

Gemtech subsonic 22 LR ammo works great in my HK 22 AR cycles everytime. Also cycles my Colt 1911 22LR and of course quiet. Stupid quiet on my contender. I use my Silencerco Sparrow suppressor on all my 22 rifles.

Anyone using filler for 300 loads? With the 194s and about 9 grains of lil gun the case is about full, but for something like a few grains, it would not be and able to move around freely.

Curious how low any of you have gone with trailboss in 223 with 55s.

8 grains of TB will shoot about 1 inch groups at 100 yds with 55 grain hollow points in my bolt guns. It's almost quiet enough to shoot without ear protection. I'd like to drop it even more as long as it will still group to 50 yds and be quieter.

My idea is to have a load I can carry on my trap line in places that are within earshot of people's homes. Carry full house loads in the rifle on the snowmachine, and a mag of sub sonics in my pocket. Still need to have 100+ yd capability when I'm out on the river for coyotes, wolves,etc., and not need another firearm.