After fondling some AR's today, I'm wondering what I should expect for accuracy from a Daniel Defense MK12? This one has a very nice Geissele trigger. Any of you guys running the MK12? Are they worth the $1,800.00 price tag and is there a better rifle to buy out there for less money. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the newbie questions, but have been kicking around the idea of getting an AR for a while now. Thanks...

I've got a DD SW2 barrel on one of my AR's and usually can get MOA 5 shot groups out of it.

I don't have one and haven't shot one, but for accuracy and lower price take a look at some of Rock River's offerings - my brother has one of the Varmint models with a 16" bbl and I have yet to equal it's accuracy with any other AR I've shot. Heavy SOB but all depends on what you want it for. And if you don't mind waiting a bit, you can customize a RR just about any way you want - saves money in the long run!

Just me, but 1800 I would NEVER spend on a factory gun.

I'd have one built for that money and then be fairly assured its a .5 or so MOA gun.

I would think you could expect MOA or better accruacy from it. If not I would send it back.

As to it being worth the $1,800 price tag, that depends. If its exactly what you want then its probably a good buy. DD makes good rifles.

Yep, War is right too, if its exactly what you want, you don't want to wait, you don't want to spec out parts, adn get exactly what you want or really have a clue what you want or need, then its an ok deal.

if it didn't shoot close to .5 moa or less I'd never pay 1800 though..

For that money you should have the best barrel on the gun and all work done the best for accuracy, at least IMHO.

Not sure what DD uses for tubes, but no way I'm going 1800 wihtout a Krieger, Obermeyer, Rock or such tube on it personally.

AR Challenge Thread

Page 13.

MM

I don't want to spend a bunch of time tuning and messing with a gun to get just the right load, I would rather shoot stuff. I bought a Wilson Combat AR several years ago and it does "out of the box" what most people are trying to build to.

The gun is light and accurate, the trigger is excellent. I hate to admit it, but it is fast twist and I had to go to bullets heavier than 50 grains for it to shoot, but it does shoot.

It also is lacking all the rails that everyone wants so they can mount a chain saw to the barrel, but I like it light and functional. It won't disappoint...

AR's are very personal. For a beginner factory rifle are hard to beat, but as you get more experience you will find you can build cheaper and better yourself. I'm sure the DD is a great rifle, but just couldn't make myself pay that kind of cash for a rifle that a 800 to 1000 AR will match or beat.

Excellent advice guys. I appreciate the comments. I'm hoping to get out and shoot one of my buddies Rock River varmint rifles today. He's not totally happy with the accuracy he's getting with it, but we'll see how she does with some match grade ammo. I guess with the DD rifle I was looking at yesterday, the MK12 had most of what I was looking for and seemed like a very nice package. One I would probably not want to change, so in the long run it would probably be a good choice for myself. However, I am curious as to why someone in the AR challenge swapped out the Geissele (SSA-E I believe) trigger on a DD MK12 and replaced it with something else?? The trigger on the one I was looking at yesterday was pretty sweet!! Thanks again for the advice guys, much appreciated..

It's all in the barrel. You would be surprised at how many of these different AR manufacturers barrels come off the same machine. Only difference is the name getting stamped on it.

The ones coming off same machine with different stamps are mediocre to good barrels generally. They are NOT custom barrels.

Shrap-- you can go to a known good smith, and will get the same as wilson and no load tinkering needed. FWIW. They dont' have a corner on the market.

I'm like you, I don't like bells and whistles, just straight up a bit of stuff with the best barrel.

If a fast twist tube won't shoot LC /25 or 25.5 Varget/BR4 and 69 smk to 2.250 its the barrel...

Barrels are a strange thing, I've had $100.00 Mod1 barrels shoot just as well as some of my 500.00 Noveske's and Black Hole Weaponry Polygonal barrels flat shoot!

This was from a 16" Mod1 sales 5.56, 9 twist barrel I purchased off the forum used years ago. Ran me $70.00 bucks shipped. These are some groups from doing load development at 200 yards.

does anyone shoot name brand top line tubes on their ARs anymore?

I understand Noveske is supposed to be pretty good but all this talk of expensive and great barrels and not many mention the top line barrel makers in the US

Obviously paper results trump though... and I've seen the Model one sales ones do as well as you have no paper, though 3 shot groups are mostly a joke in reality.

That Mod1 barrel isn't for competition. It's for varmints and predators. If your either. Those first three rounds are no joke.

A good 1in8 will shoot tiny groups with 50gr pills, and I agree, a free-float rail that you can have a folding front sight with a crappy Surefire light in front of it is really silly. Not to mention how stupid having a QD bipod at 6o'clock is as well.

What's the intended use? Here is one for you Lawrence save youself $300-$400 bucks

https://www.stagarms.com/model-3g/

There is a lot of good off the shelf quality AR's on the market. Some are better that others. Accuracy, in my opinion is mainly attributed to the barrel and trigger. You can make due with a crappy trigger but, a less than quality barrel will not allow you to achieve small groups. I reload for my AR but most of my plinking is done with standard cost effective ammo. I have found ammo from several different companies that are what I call grand kid MOA. They all love to shoot the AR and its nice to have off the shelf ammo that is fairly accurate but cost effective. Wold Gold is one of those grand kid MOA ammo that I have found. The 10 shot was 2.016". If you excluding the 3 flyers, the 7 shot group goes to .634". Not bad cost effective grand kid MOA ammo.
[URL=http://s782.photobucket.com/user/lynntelk/media/223%20Wolf%20Gold%2018in%20LaRue%20OBR.png.html]223 Wolf Gold[/url]

"does anyone shoot name brand top line tubes on their ARs anymore?"

I've got one coming made from Reardon steel...

That's funny! Tell us more.

After a long 10 days or so in my life that have been miserable in ways, that one got a chuckle out of me!

Not in yet?

And at 500 or 600 yards with a yote, one of the next 5-7 rounds will be a miss for sure.... just the way it works when posting 3 round groups.

Not that many folks I guess will shoot a yote or even a deer that far off though.

That's what 240B is for... 750-950 rds a minute your going to hit something eventually

I've been eyeballing the hell out of that one....

That Stag 3G is a very good value........but they only guarantee 1.5", 3 shots.

They do guarantee < 1", 3 shots, with their Varmint model.

FWIW

MM

That's good to know. Thanks MM...

I do own a Daniel Mk12. It is well made and reliable, but not a tack driver.





I've managed a couple groups around 1.4 MOA for 10 shots. So far I have yet to hit on the combo that gives better accuracy. By contrast I have an Armalite bull barrel gun that is currently in 2nd place in the AR Challenge, which cost a heck of a lot less than the Daniel.

The DD MK12 barrel is an 18" CHF and nitrided barrel, which I expect should shoot fairly well for many thousands of rounds, hot or cold, rain or shine. Maybe I'll hit on the trick that makes it really shoot well, but I'm thinking I need someone else's barrel.

Damn that news sucks. I still haven't made my mind up, but looking at some RRA rifles after shooting my buddies the other day. It shoots very well. I like the match grade trigger as well, but like the Geiselle SSA-E two stage better in the DD MK12. Your rifle is very nice. I'm kind of bummed your not getting better accuracy out of her...

Keep in mind that's a 10 shot group. Not the best of the bunch but pretty respectable.

Yep, there's enough sub MOA 3 shot groups in there to make any 3 shot hero proud.

Something that large you could easily hit at 500-600 yards with about any AR I'd suspect.

1800... buy a lower, without trigger, put Geiselle in it, go to White Oak Precision or any of the other top line smiths, have an upper done with a top line barrel, and everything concentric etc....Suspecting you can come in at 1800 or less with a proven shooter IMHO.

plus 1 on this advice

'fraid I'll agree with Rost, at least as far as a practical using rifle.

In the case of the DD I've wound up replacing the trigger with a Geissele DMR, and replaced the stylish DD stock with the Magpul STR. I ordered a replacement bulb for my borescope, as I want to scrutinize the bore before I do anything else to it. Perhaps something simple will turn up.

One school of thought I have heard is for resale purposes, you are never going to recoup your investment with a parts gun - a complete unmodified rifle from the manufacturer will hold its value better. So depending on what I do, I'll save the parts, should I ever sell it.

But one of Noveske's barrels is looking pretty good right now.

It has an SSA, not an SSA-E.

MM

YOu have to remember when folks talk accuracy, my mind goes straight to match winning acccurcy, I just don't like so so guns. Even though I hunt with a couple, I still don't like it.

Also, I don't sell guns, so resale is a non issue with me. I buy/build/have built what I want for specific uses or buy something for fun. Hence not selling.

I just don't buy and sell to play with things.

If I was buying for resale, it would be a big brand name for sure, like Colt mostly... as even the top names like Wilson Combat Noveske and so on can be hard to get your money back out of at times, while Colt has historically held value.

That said, I own a colt lower... came as a whole rifle but was junk for match shooting so thats the only colt I have, just the lower half sans the trigger.... learned that basically the cheapest upper, with the right barrel would shoot better than most factory assembled guns.

Show us a 10 round group.

Yep they just replaced my barrel with a new one I am not convinced it is better.

Noveske has no accuracy guarantee

gotta agree....just had a Aero Precision built w/SS Shilen 300 BO

under $1K + glass/mounts/brass/dies...boolits

Thanks Rost, I know you know your chit when it comes to AR's.

The one I was looking at has the SSA-E in it. This shop also builds custom AR's, so maybe they upgraded the trigger...At least, that's the info I was given. Twas a nice 2 stage trigger that broke cleanly at 1.2 pounds on the second stage....Sorry I didn't make that more clear in the OP...

The shop I was at last Saturday said the Noveske barrels as of late have been crap.

make sure when a shop says it builds, that it means that and what barrel blanks they use to machine, that "building" is not simply assembling... if thats the case, assemble your own with a Krieger ready to run barrel IMHO.

They are a lot of fun once you get past the idea on expecting bolt gun type accuracy. A good brass schitting machine for my Montana.

LOL, most really good barrels in an AR will be under .5 moa, yeah, not for 10 plus shot groups and all..

Whats the average of a good bolt gun? .25 moa maybe?

If you are shooting brass in an AR and using in a montana then, something ain't making sense that much...

So here is one for all of you!!!


$320 Krieger mid length 2.0 pound stainless steel or $495.00 Reardon Steel barrel from LaRue?

no brainer until I have a reardon one to play with to compare.

I'm two to four weeks out on mine but can't get excited about it. Been playing with the AI and just bought a new bow today.

Too many projects.

We should be happy we have too many projects like that going on! Ain't it?

Let me know if you don't want it! Will give you $50 more than you paid