A buddy of mine is loading his 45/70 loads for his handi rifle with the ruger only data. He says the guy at the walmart gun counter where he bought the gun told him the gun would handle them. How long will this gun handle these loads? Anyone know of a good link I could send him that shows what pressure the gun is rated for? I just cannot believe that thing is as strong as a Ruger #1.

I have shot mine with the Marli loads and after 300 it opens a lot easier. I worked up to those loads and now use startng Marlin loads and it does not appear to be loosening. Please implore him to not believe a Walmart assosciate.

+1 on what medicman said! He can damage the gun, and get hurt in the process! The best place for info on handi rifles is over at GBO forums. If I can find a link to pressures on handis, I'll post it later.


maddog

The modern Handi-Rifles and Buffalo Classic rifles may handle the same pressures as any modern single shot. They are made in several calibers that have over 50,000 PSI ratings.
They have two versions that are known as the S 1 or S 2 receivers. The S 1 being the shotgun receiver and light calibers guns.
If you go to the Greybeard forum they have a complete section involving this gun with tons of printed information. They even have a sell and swap section on them.

Tack

His does have the S2 reciever. I just couldn't believe it was built for those loads. I can say I fired one before he told me what he was doing, and recoil is plentiful. His is not the buffalo, no scope very light rifle.

50000 lb with a .473 casehead is not as hard on a rifle as a.606 casehead. Read some of the literature put out by JDJones of SSK industries and his limits derived with larger caseheads. There is more rearward pressure the larger the casehead. A pinned action bears the rearward pressure on the pin and pin seat. I pushed too hard and my action loosened so it opened and closed without tightness it had when new. I backed off a bit and the rifle is still going strong.

Sure does open quick, though.

Seems like I'm getting the same mixed results here as I'm finding on google. Does someone have a link to the JDJones work if there is any online?

Many of us on the GBO forum safely shoot Ruger level loads without any damage to the rifle; myself included. My hunting load for the .45-70 is the Remington 405 gr. bullet over IMR4198 for 1950 fps. Buffalo Bore lists the Handi Rifle as being acceptable for their hot loads. The Handi .38-55 safely handles .375 Winchester loads. I load a 213 gr. custom bonded bullet at 2275 fps. I own 14 Handis and never have had one shoot loose.

Pete

I have a .308 and loads some hot rod shots through it and it is as tight as it ever was . It was tight when new, like all of them ,stiff trigger ,tight breach but with plenty of. shooting its comming into it .l have had a few through the years and for the money you can't beat them .

Thank you guys.

You have to realize that the break action Handi is simply not as strong as design as the #1. If the Hnadi can "safely" take Ruger loads, then the Ruger can be pushed even harder. I can't imagine why you'd want to do that. Even "Marlin" loads are pretty potent stuff. If you're trying to stretch the distance of the big bore, they now make range finder which can take the geuss work out of that. There is not good reason to run firewall loads in any gun.

sigh.

Klikitarik, You obviously don't know much about Handi Rifles. The loads we are talking about are not "firewall loads". The Handi is good for 60,000 psi. I really don't care how far you can push a Ruger #1. I don't own any. What I do care about and know about is what Handis can do. Don't talk about breech thrust until you read up on it in the Handi.

Spend some time here:

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?board=126.0

Pete

I am going to let him be. I am finding more here and elsewhere saying they can handle it. But I'm not gonna fire it again. And yes, the greybeard site has alot of info on these guns.

mog75, what it all boils down to is the Handi will take a lot more than your shoulder will.

A lot of public misconception comes from "Gun Writers" who get a test rifle and a box of 20 rounds and are now, instantly, experts on the piece. If you've lived with them for five or ten years you may know a little more.

Pete

70 - 75 kpsi. Case will extract easy, but primers fall right out of the pockets - BTDT.

interesting comment.
Please document the loads you use to 70-75,000 p.s.i.

In 1999 I got a Handi Rifle in 45/70.
I had a copy of "Speer 12" that showed three levels of 45/70. I wondered which one I had.

In Sept 1999 I tried to do the calculation, with some help from a mechanical engineering professor, Peter Torvik, and my father. My father was by then retired, but he had been chief engineer over the design of the M107, M110, M55, and lots of other guns, for which he had many patents.

I learned about the pin in double shear, the breech face I have do section a section modulus calculation for bending, and the thin wall and thick wall Lame's formula for the chamber wall.

I went through that calculation and concluded it was way stronger than the brass would ever be.
I posted that, and was told I lacked the education to do those calculations. [I have an EE degree from the Univ of Wash, same as my father].
But I did a validation test anyway.



Quickload calculation of pressure and velocity with 405 gr, Unique

shot 0) 15 gr, 24,700 psi, 1271 fps, no shot fired, listed for Quickload reference point only
shot 1) 18 gr, 33,217psi, 1403 fps, primer looks fine.
shot 2) 20 gr, 39,435 psi, 1485 fps, primer is fine
shot 3) 22 gr, 46,133 psi, 1563 fps, primer looks flat.
shot 4) 24 gr, 53,334 psi, 1637 fps, primer is flat.
shot 5) 26 gr, 61,067 psi, 1709 fps, primer is top hat and flowing,
action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 6) 28 gr, 69,366 psi, 1778 fps, primer is top hat and flowing, case
head expansion .001", action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 7) 30 gr, 78275 psi, 1846 fsp, case head expansion .0015" action
popped open and case ejected on firing, some leading in the muzzle.
shot 8) 32 gr, 87,841 psi, 1911 fps, case head expansion .0025", case head separating where case head is flowing into the extractor, action popped open, some leading in the muzzle, and case ejected on firing, primer is spreading out .010"

After I posted the test data, I had some tell me it meant nothing.

Then I remembered John Cleese [Liberal] in Monty Python saying, "Not necessarily, I could be arguing in my spare time."
To which Eric Idle [Conservative] says, "I've had enough of this."

It is 3:30 into the sketch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

Why did you stop? You easily could have gotten 2800-3000 fps. Just kidding. Hope somebody doesn't see those loads and try them in their rifle.

Reference loads:

1) "Loads for the 45/70" from the H.P.White laboratory via "American
Rifleman" 1950~1968 via "NRA Handloader's Guide" 1969 says:
405 gr Rem S.P., 17.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 25,240 pounds pressure, for 1886 Win

2) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
400 gr cast, 16.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 27,000 cup, for 1886 Win

3) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
385 cast gr cast, 17.5 gr Unique, 1411 fps, 38,500 cup, for Ruger #1

4) My Handi rifle test, 32 gr Unique 405 gr QL:87,841 psi, 1911 fps

I got an H&R 16 ga shotgun lower for $50 and built a rifle upper for it. It is now a 50 caliber wildcat and I push the pressure as hard as I can.

Of the SB1 and SB2, this is the soft H&R. I milled out the receiver to fit the $200 barrel. It comes out in crumbs, which means it is cast iron.

I am not taking it easy on the cast iron receiver. What I am doing is way past published Ruger #1 loads for 45/70.

What does it all mean?
The gun culture folklore can fill up with gunk until someone does the math and the experiments, and then a few will understand.

The firing pin strike on the case in your picture tells me it is a SB1 shotgun frame.I think when you wear fragments of that cast iron frame you'll come to an even better understanding. The 40 and 60 kpsi limits are put on those frames for a reason. Others have woefully trod the path you're on. Please don't shoot with bystanders. If you keep hammering at it, it will fail.

Pete

Pete,

Real engineers have calculations and/or data, not speculation based on a hunch and passed off as fact.

Have you got anything?
Anything at all before you make a post?

I don't claim to be an engineer. I am an informed, safe and experienced Handi Rifle owner and shooter.

There's reams of data on SB1 and SB2 frames on GBO. Spend some time over there...."the life you save may be your own"

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?board=126.0

I've hung out there for six or eight years. I have 14 Handis and half again as many H&R/NEF shotguns. I know what can and can not be safely done with a SB1 frame. All my rifles are on SB2 frames plus two of the shotguns. Not all of them require SB2s. I have the frames and put them to good use.

What you're doing is the equivalent of beating a concrete block with a sledge hammer. It may not break with the first whack. Keep pounding on it and it will.

Pete

Apparently not, but you think you do.

I was told in no uncertain terms that grey beard does not welcome my handi rifle calculations nor test data.

Not a great center for learning.

"I was told in no uncertain terms that grey beard does not welcome my handi rifle calculations nor test data."

Geeze, I wonder why? You obviously know more than all the engineers that are and have been at NEF, H&R, Marlin and Remington. Do me a favor...when you take yourself out...do it alone. You're barking up the wrong tree.

It doesn't matter how many dogs bark up the wrong tree, it is still the wrong tree. -Fritz Perls


Pete

Do you have calculations from NEF engineers?

Was there ever one?

They say there are two things you never want to see made, sausage and politics.

I would add to that design. When my father was designing all those guns, when things blew up or broke down, the log read "unscheduled disassembly.

Do you have ANY data from ANY engineers?

Got ANYTHING?

Or have you got nothing but an unsubstantiated opinion, rumor, or company political statement?

I built a house on top of a mountain with 4,000 sq ft of concrete tile roof. I pulled my materials up there with a 1979 Honda Civic that was rated by Honda for zero pounds pulling.

But I could see how thick the metal was, so it harder to bs me.

People have different models for what they will believe, and how much credit they give a source.

If you can't do the math, and have not taken the data, or do not trust the data, you can't really believe but what you are told.

The gun culture is full of self perpetuating folk lore that is almost impossible get rid of with calculations and or data.

Between 2000 and 2005 I proved that load books wrong about the strength of CZ52s and they changed.

That only took about 1,000 posts.

I don't have enough years left in me to straighten out the SB1 SB2 folklore.

Look, I'm tired of this crap. Do what you want, just do it alone.

Pete