Canada has two pipeline projects in the works. One to take oil to the west coast of british columbia so they can sell oil to the asians. And the other that is supposed to head into the usa to service the american market.

It appears that the natives are going to stop the line from going to the west coast because it's proposed route is across untreated [no treaty] land and they feel that the risk of a rupture is too much to take with the salmon streams in their traditional territory. The one going into the american market is being stalled because of partisan politics.

Do you think either of these projects will ever be completed because we sure would like to sell off some of this oil we are sitting on??

I can not speak of the Western Canada line, but the line through the U.S. needs to be built if the oil is going to be used in North America. It seems that most good things take time.

There both going to go ahead. Having America and China competing for our oil is a very good thing for Canada. If we have only one outlet we're too easy to blackmail.

Obama will delay the south flowing one - till after the election - for political reasons. He has a lot of green voters he has to appease - he'll hum and haw - get their votes, get re-elected, and then go ahead with the deal - knowing by then it'll be too late for them to do anything about it.

The one going west to sell oil to China will also happen - it's just a question of how much cash will need to be handed out to the tribes - in order to make all their "environmental concerns" go away.

Last I heard, the Gitsan Wet-su-wetn had already agreed (in principle) on a deal. Enough cash to buy all the chiefs and council members a new pick-up truck and a snowmobile or two - and "poof" - no more environmental concerns.

Of course, Canada could decide we could actually refine our own oil and sell the refined product to Americans and Chinese. I guess that would mean too many long term jobs and we wouldn't want that. Better to remain firmly seated in our role as providers of raw materials to those countries who do wish to manufacture goods. Go for the quick buck!
We will buy pipe from China and refined fuel from the US so we can build the pipelines to employ their workers. Hoo-rah. GD

You've got that right!

The only oil we should ever export out of Canada - is oil we refined - HERE.

Sure would be nice if we built some refineries here. There is no reason that we can't produce the finished product, both enough to sustain Canada and have plenty to export as well. SE Alberta could use the jobs that the refining side of the Oil Patch would create.
Yes it would be expensive to start up but over time both Alberta and Canada would benefit. I also believe it could be done in an environmentally safe manner. Any new refinery would be built using the latest technology vice converting older infrastructure.
There is no reason why we could not be a world leader in environmentally sound resource extraction.
Pipe dream.........maybe?

Apparently that chief didn't have the support of his community and the Gitsan negotiators that were involved in that little deal they brokered got fired the day after this news broke. The Gitsan are firmly in support of stopping the pipeling from being build and they probably don't appreciate your insinuation about pickups and snow machines......

Just watch.

The deal will be approved - the natives will get lots of money - and when they get enough money - all of their environmental concerns will evaporate.

It's all about money - and money only.

All their doing now is haggling over the price.

Mark these words.

They have been worried of late about the arms caches they have been finding....this one may not be about money, and it may be about the indians standing up and saying NO for a change? What do you think the odds are of Canada turning it's armed forces on the indians......

We will let Canada bring the pipe down. For now Obama is in a catch 22. He talks jobs but need green voters. This is what happens when they sit on the fence. The conservatives will take over the senate and will keep the house. Hope we get a real president next year. States have a dog in this fight too. We buy oil from people that don't want us dead ( I think) and we get to refine it in Texas. Like a poster said why drag it all the way to Texas to bring it back up to where it came from. I hope the states totally do away with OPEC. I also hope this deal doesn't make enemies between us. Buisness can be a funny thing.

I thought Obama was doing pretty good under the circumstances. He took office heading into one of the worst financial disasters our world has seen in centuries and he has held the USA together! You have to wonder why the opposition would stifle any job creation at this time if it wasn't purly self serving??

I believe it is best for Canada to not build refineries as margins suck and will only get worse. Combine that with the very high cost for costuction up there and refineries are a no-go when the econimics are run. We came close to building one there four years ago. Took the money and invested in it in Qatar. We are just completing a large expansion down here that, with hindsight, should have never been approved. The oil from Alberta will feed this refinery when the Keystone pipeline moves ahead.

Canadian Indian bands still hold legal title to the vast majority of BC, do you seriously think they are going to take a few tokens for allowing a potential environmental disaster into their hunting and gathering grounds?

China seems to think the pipeline will be built, and sooner than later.

China dives into oil sands as U. S. balks�

To lift a quip from Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Arctic sovereignty policy and apply it to the American view of Alberta's oil sands: Use it or lose it.

The Chinese government pushed its shovel deep into Canada's energy motherlode yesterday when it announced a $2-billion stake in a five-billion-barrel reserve of "dirty oil" that Americans increasingly find unworthy of fuelling their vehicles.

The 60% claim by Petro-China in two projects owned by Athabasca Oil Sands Corp., while small compared to the great gobs of capital pouring into oil sands expansion and extraction, are the global giant's largest investment in Canadian energy yet.

And China usually buys into products it aims to consume.

Sources in Washington predict politicians there will not be pleased at having a massive supply of secure energy on their northern doorstep slipping under Chinese ownership.

Well, too bad.

Under the greenish Obama administration, "oil sands" is becoming a dirty word as Americans take on the delusional swagger that they can be picky about which oil is good enough to buy in a recession when supply is temporarily ahead of demand.

Canadian oil sands exports are increasingly encountering U. S. political resistance at federal, state and municipal levels as low-carbon fuel standards move through the legislative process to erect barricades against an energy source with an extraction problem.

But it is delusional because there is no post-refining difference between conventional and non-conventional oil and banning it in one state or city merely moves it to another, with no corresponding reduction in carbon emissions.

Yet the difference between the American and Chinese views of oil sand imports suggests that Canada is nearing a moment of decision.

It can be forever held captive to the whims of U. S. refineries, which import 60% of oil sand production or about 780,000 barrels a day. Or it can create a battle of demand between the two energy-consuming superpowers that will soon find there is not enough oil to satisfy their combined thirsts.

That will require Canada, whose pipelines now head only north and south, to punch a hole in the Rockies and open up a crude flow to the West Coast, from where oil could head overseas.

Environment Minister Jim Prentice is no fan of a single-buyer market for exported bitumen, which actually sells at a discount in the U. S. compared with Middle East oil despite coming from a friendly neighbour. He'd like competition injected into the system.

"Doesn't it help Canada's exporters to have alternative market choices?" he noted in a recent interview.

"We need transportation mechanisms to ship it to the West Coast. Refineries in the U. S. have limited capacity and we don't have anywhere else to sell it. Having the capacity to ship it to the West Coast would keep everybody honest, so I think it's good policy."

That's so obvious as to be rhetorical, but the cost and complications of a new westbound pipeline may be prohibitive for the private sector to go it alone.

The proposed Enbridge Inc. Northern Gateway pipeline, which has been on ice for several years, is being thawed for reconsideration.

That's at least five years off and the project faces numerous environmental, aboriginal land claim and geographical hurdles, which is probably why they weren't talking about it yesterday --although they weren't ruling it out in the longer term either.

But to understand China's strategic investment interest, keep in mind that 2009 will likely go down as the first year when car sales in the Communist country beat the United States, making it the world's largest car-buying nation.

At the risk of stating the obvious, cars consume gasoline, gasoline comes from oil and the world's largest deposits of oil, albeit locked in tar, straddle northern Alberta and Saskatchewan.

If America doesn't want to use it on environmental grounds, they're only one pipeline away from losing it to someone else.

[email protected]

I ran into some of the local Indian elders at the airport here who were on a 2 week all expense paid trip to China, they seemed pretty excited about it.

At the present the Indians hold title to next to nothing.It's possible that in the future the courts or the Province may award them title,but at present that is not the case.They have CLAIMED over 150% of the Province(overlapping claims).As usual CS is jumping the gun. Monashee

The American greenies are a noisy but small extremist faction, does not speak for the general population who drive cars.

Your not being upfront Monashee, it was actually 110% I believe because of overlapping claims. AND if you spent some time reading court rulings you would understand that all untreated land in BC under land claims still has unextinguished native titles to deal with.....

refineries cost billions and you still need the pipeline to move the finished product , the gulf coast is only running 60% to 70% of the their refining capacity so shipping raw product to the states makes the most sense, unless you want the government to get involved and start petro Canada over again ?

anyone who doesn't think the natives have a price does not give them enough credit they smell payday and will play hard ball to get their piece of the pie and it will be tens of millions not beads and trinkets like the old days. They are getting very good at getting what they want

Hard to understand how a bunch of natives dragging poles behind horses and living in skin houses, and eating dogs during the winter came to understand the whiteman's money system in only a seventy five years and the use of government paid lawyers to lay claims to land that they crossed over in there nomadic life styles maybe a few times in their lives. The wheel was invented 5000 years ago but they never figured that out until the whiteman's vehicles showed up. They quickly dumped the horses, and when they found out, if they complained a bit they would get fed for free. Poor natives so abused by the whiteman. Natives need gas too, even if they don't pay taxes on it like the evil whiteman.

Your not being upfront Monashee, it was actually 110% I believe because of overlapping claims. AND if you spent some time reading court rulings you would understand that all untreated land in BC under land claims still has unextinguished native titles to deal with..... [/quote] CS,the area I used to live in in the LM was claimed by SEVEN different bands.Fat chance of settling that one!Land claims tend to pop up once something on (or under) the land increases in value.The more it's worth,the more overlapping claims.For example the historic fishing grounds in the Fraser Canyon.Those claims will be fought out between the bands for years.And of course non of the LM or canyon bands will stop fishing the early Stuart sockeyes,so the band that actually depends on the fish gets next to none,while the others flog them to supermarkets.Not much love lost between bands,just like the old days! Monashee

E

That is what an education can do for you! :-) and no one time deals...smart people get residuals and have reopening clauses.

Evil whiteman? Ive never heard those words uttered by anyone but evil whiteman! LOL

Native what? Indians certainly are not "native" americans.

Who said 'native'? Oh right that was you...what's your point have to do with the thread?

Yeah! they changed native to First Nation because many whites came in Canada in the early 1700's such as my ancestors. So basically I'm more native than most First nation since 90% of them were chased up into Canada by the USA calvary. That's why the Jade treaty is still in place because they can return to lands of their birth.

The point is these groups are not Native, First, or a Nation for that matter and as such have no claim to anything.

He took office heading out and through is terrible policy's has prolonged the poor economy. Has lack of leadership and the Democrat party is solely responsible for Keystone XL being held up. Of course the republicans have forced him into saying yes or now in the next few months.
It will go, if not under Obama, than under the next president.

They ARE Nations and have been recognized as such by the CROWN, and the international commmunity. As much as it pains you to hear it they are doing deals on a Nation to Nation basis. To try and deny it is just glossing over the facts.

Your more native than most first nation?? Really?? Best laugh I've had in a long time.

Nations my azz. Prior to Europeans arriving you had a stoneage culture comprised of a bunch of savage tribes. Hardly a nation by any stretch of the imagination.
Now the have degenerated into a bunch of drunken social parasites for the most part.

Indians form the area I live in where chased out in the early 1800's and ended up in the Lake Winnipeg area, where they probably have made land claims....what a joke!

Your funny, go back to school and get an education. At least the savages are getting educated these days, perhaps redneck whitefeathers like you will follow suit someday.

Education is pretty useless when your drunk or huffing gasoline 24/7....

You missed out on glue and Peerless lake shooters.(photocopier fluid)

You fellas are pretty lame. Is that the best you can come up with? LOL. It's pretty sad when you have to be jealous of an oppresses people. ;-)

You mean conquered nation,with good luck from a senile Queen Victoria (Britain)signing treaties with American Indians and metis. Remember we are no longer a British colony so those treaties need to be scrapped. At the time they were probably justified but they should be put to referendum and be voted on. Seems everyone I talk too is sick and tired of BS going on at present.

The queen is still on your money.....

More like conquered savages.... To bad you guys didnt have Phil Sheridan like we did..

The only oppressing is being done by the band councils and chiefs
just look at attawapa or a dozen more

Not jealous just tired of seeing all our tax dollars supporting a lazy,spoilt,welfare dependent,highest crime rate per capita, people who have large families with half the kids not knowing who their father's are people who have lost all connection with nature and play out the culture card only when it benefits them. Besides most of them are lactose intolerant and when they eat ice cream they produce lots of flatulents. That's Ok in their homes but at the Bingo hall it's not acceptable.

Bingo hall...now that's funny!! I am tired of my tax dollars being spent in Afghanistan building roads, hospitals and schools... While Canada falls apart! I am tired of reading about Canada giving monies to the Palestinian authority while our old people cannot afford food and heat in their homes. I am tired of paying for English classes for immigrants that should know the language, or have the means to pay for it themselves.

We just have different things that jerk our chains!!

That's why the Liberals lost, but the Conservatives don't seem to be changing any of the common complaints posted by both of us or all the other millions of voters in Canada.

Well then, it must be time to give the NDP a try and see how they conduct themselves??/ ;-)

Not [bleep] likely.The NDP does not have the economic vision to run a hotdog stand,let alone a Province or the country.Remember what they did to the economies of BC,Ontario and Saskatchewan?I see Harper has cut foriegn aid funding.I look forward to him also cutting the handouts to aborigonal peoples.I'm sick and tired of paying for mistakes made generations ago,before my ancestors came to Canada. Monashee

I remember what it was like when the NDP took office in Ontario.

Those bozos could not organize a screw in a whorehouse, nor did they have any sense of financial responsibility.

Talk about spending money like a bunch of drunken sailors...

John

It was the same the last time they ran BC,juicy hand outs to their union buddies and all the other special interest groups that helped put them in power.Industry and jobs left the Province post haste to avoid the tax burden they put on business to pay for their policies.Now due to the ineptness of the BC Liberals and the short memories of BC voters they will get in again.Canuckshooter must be rubbing his hands with glee.Did I mention they closed grizzly bear hunting to please the Green lobby.That will happen again,along with further restrictions on hunting,and access restrictions to Crown land to keep FN happy. Monashee

I cannot take any individual that believes that the federal or BC Dippers are go in to be the better choice. Their policies and agendas haven't changed, they always ignore the books until they run out of debt to spend and then they tax the crap out of the "evil" business sector and upper middle class and kill the economy again all to pander to the cluelessly emotional and special interest minority groups. The NDP will say whatever they have to to get it. But freedom to them is them allowing you to do whatever they think is ok to do. Screw freedom of speach, screw the right to act in civil disobedience and challenge the governments reason. They act like they have a police state and they are intellectually superior to those that the are supposed to serve far beyond the Libs or Conservatives.
If BC votes in the NDP again, we are all headed to the store for Vaseline with 30% tax on it (it's a petro product).

The ...police state... is far more a product of both the Liberal and Conservative parties in Canadian history, than it has ever been a creation of the N.D.P or their forerunners, the C.C.F.

I suggest that those who may disagree and have some issues with the ...intellectually superior... people in Canada, do some serious study of Canadian history and perhaps think about such events as "The Battle of Ballantyne Pier", "The War Measures Act", the internment of Canadian citizens of German, Italian and Japanese orgins in both World Wars and on and on and on.....

I am most emphatically NOT a "Dipper", but, I also know who did what and when in Canada and tend to favour factual reality in discussions over lurid propaganda.

I live in Adrien Dix's riding, he is an excellent M.L.A. and most people here I talk with want to see him as Premier of B.C.; he would be far better than the venal, corrupt Campbell and Clark under whom we have incurred HUGE public debt, devastation of basic public services and "kow-towing" to aboriginals, non-traditional immigrants and foreign resource rapers as never before.

I doubt that Dix WILL interfere with hunting and am currently lobbying his office to make changes in BC hunting regs. that will protect and benefit we residents, but, "time will tell".....

I don't trust the Dippers as far as hunting goes,or logging for that matter.They could turn the whole damn province into a provincial park and expect us all to sell trinkets to the tourists rather than have real jobs

Kute maybe "your lobbying" will bear more fruit than that of the 40,000 strong BCWF.Be sure to ask Adrian,the "utterer of forged documents"Dix whether he'll let us hunt grizzlies once he's annointed.Just remember if his lips are moving he's lying. Monashee

kutenay,

First, I hope spring is knocking on your door in BC -- here in northern Sweden the snow is still nearly up to my knees and temperatures at night are still below zero.

Second, "intellectually superior" you may well be (maybe I should write "are" because I consider myself just an ordinary guy and would never claim to be "intellectually superior" ) but you should not assume that you are the only one with an interest and some knowledge of Canadian history. I am well aware of the past contributions of the NDP (and CCF).

I was not writing about the fairly distant past when the CCF and NDP did indeed make many valuable contributions (e.g the internment debate) to the development of Canada as a great place to live. Back then, they often seemed to be the party with a conscience!

My comments were from my personal (and much more recent) experience with the modern NDP who ran Ontario in the early 90's... ran it right into the ground, that is.

By comparison, Bob Rae and his corrupt, naive bunch of ideologues and hypocrites made Obama look like a fiscal ultra-conservative with an impeccably honest cabinet.

I have lived in prairie Canada, and I agree that the NDP in the west has always been much better than the Bob Rae NDP with respect to his governments' financial irresponsibility and string of scandals & incompetence. There was a reason why the NDP were tossed out of Ontario after one term by such a landslide.

In stark contrast to the Ontario NDP, I have heard that the NDP in BC are another kettle of fish (a kettle of fish is perhaps never a bad metaphor when it comes to politicians of any stripe! ) but I have no information regarding the NDP in BC in recent years and I was not commenting on them.

Of course, there is really not much basis for any of us making general statements concerning any political party when one considers huge variation within a given party at the all the provincial & federal levels.

Cheers!

John

I have been a member of the B.C.W.F. since the 1970s and was on a regional executive for some time in the 1980s; my latest activity for our group was some two months ago.

I do, however, after over a half century of active, volunteer conservation activity, still think that individual contacts with those who make decisions is a viable and productive contribution to realizing the goals so many desire in respect of hunting, firearms legislation and related issues.

I made no claim of any sort, I merely stated a few relevant facts concerning Canadian history and am not interested in an exchange of "ad hominem" comments here.

The state of contemporary Canada and B.C. is not due to the N.D.P., it is a result of Liberal and Conservative policies and the continual sell-out of our raw natural resources and traditional culture for cheap profits and the support of "bloc voters" who are largely foreigners.

The parties in Canada, now, have very little to really differentiate among them, they are all pretty disgusting.

So, if you support the NDP Kute, let me ask you this question:
Is it the governments job to tax for the sake of good will and allow those funds to flow through bureaucracy and be deligated to whom the government finds fit for what should and historically is acts of compassion? How about legislating non-criminal morality?
If you answer yes or maybe to either of those questions you are tying the noose and handing it to the master to place around your neck. That is the first step in the sale of your freedom, and it is despicable. The NDP nation wide believes that these two things are primary concerns of the government, more so than the Libs or Cons.
Frankly I prefer non of them, they are all crooked, and manned with the self serving. I just prefer a government that is willin to preserve more personal freedoms and more opportunity than use my tax payed dollars to crush the people they are supposed to serve under there emotional poli-babble.
The NDP screwed this province far more than Campbell or Clark ever have. Like I told the last Dipper that b:::hed about the HST: you want mommy to hold your hand cradle to grave, pay your taxes and expect them to go up every year.
Our health care and education, including lost secondary is the expensive mess it is because of the government involvement and social expectation. But oh travesty, the intellectuals are going to come at me now, because they some how know better, though examples are there clearly today and historically. Dix isn't a good man, he is a man, and his ideals are terribly misplaced. And he lies, gets caught in his lies, and people still eat it up. Because all they can see is a hand out.
I am liberitarian by the way, and the social brainwashing society had received to believe that what more government involvement is better is sad.

Rest in peace, while I find your writing style somewhat "unique" and would, were I so inclined, challenge your version of "history" for my own amusement, I am not a supporter of the N.D.P. and have not been for almost thirty years.

I do find your comment concerning the ...mess... our...education... has become to be obviously self-evident; it is a sadly amusing aspect of contemporary Canadian life.

May I ask, what exactly is a ...liberitarian...?

Geeezuz wept and no phuqueing wonder.................

Yes Kute, the response I was expecting. I wrote that on an iPhone whilst traveling to a WHL playoff game, so excuse my prose. Interesting indeed.
Challenge away old timer, I would love to hear you dispute the facts and remainders that history has left us to judge actions by.
I do know it is libertarian, I slipped when I was responding and added more "i", but given the company of the conversation it may be appropriate.
So enamored with yourself, personal attacks aren't nearly as virulent as you once were, but still self aggrandizing.
The phonetic spelling is amazing for one so close to dementia, but I do digress.
No real response, which is normal for a Dipper. No facts, no ability to make an effort. Pining to be the "alpha intellectual".
Your recounts of history are comical, well spun and mostly for your own amusement. Quite like Adrain's actually......

I have not attacked you or anyone here, I merely posted my opinions and in a rational, factual and literate manner. If, you do not agree, fine, that is your right and I would never attempt to deny anyone's freedom of expression.

As to ...dementia...,well, since you enjoy "ad hominem" remarks rather than posting specific facts, I shall just laugh and put you on "ignore" as further interaction with you does not interest me. The comments concerning ...history... that you post, given your epistolary "skills" are hilarious, but, chatter away, I am done with you.

No loss there. Having a socialist , self-aggrandizing mono-racist put me on ignore is a trophy on the wall in the real world.

Amen.