Unrelated to hunting or shooting:

My older stepson has been through bouts with alcoholism and drug addiction, but has successfully overcome his addictions and has now been drug-free and sober for several years. He has been offered a good job in Alaska and is looking forward to getting up there and getting started.

He would like to drive to Alaska with a cargo trailer with his personal possessions. A couple of his buddies have told him that if he has DUI convictions in the states, he cannot legally drive in Canada. My wife has been doing a little internet research on the issue and has not found a definite "yes" or "no". However, just about every site that she visits pulls up advertisements for attorneys, so she suspects that there must be something to his friends' assertion.

Can anyone here provide us with a definite answer to this question?

Many thanks in advance!

Just hearsay, but I don't think driving is the main issue.
As I understand it, he will not be allowed in the country for a number of years.

Hopefully, real knowledge will follow.

Ever since 9/11 the Canadian border people have tightened up entrance requirements. I know when 9/11 occurred and we were going moose hunting our outfitter lost some clients who were unable to get across the border due to DUI convictions. Prior to that time apparently the same guys had been able to cross.

As I understand it in the US DUI convictions are treated as misdemeanors while in Canada they are considered to be felonies. (I hope I have that right.) Anyway a more serious offence.

Apparently there is some method whereby the charges can be expunged from the record but don't know how long this might take.

I would suggest he contact the Canadian border service directly as they are the only ones who can provide the correct information. Don't know if exceptions are made for persons travelling through.

I know any outfitters I'm aware of seem to still caution prospective clients about the problems they may encounter if they have these kinds of charges on their record.

Jim

Perhaps he should consider making the trip on the Alaska Marine Ferry, thus bypassing Canada altogether.
http://www.dot.state.ak.us/amhs/index.shtml

If his trailer is legal on a paved highway, it's OK on the ferry.

I advised him that this was an alternative, but he really wants to see Canada and drive the Al-Can highway.

As Jim said, I'd contact the proper authorities, and get it in print.

Driveing as Wabiggon states is not the problem. He may not be allowed into the country because of a criminal code violation which translates into a felony.

I have had clients denied for what in the US is some pretty minor violations. I had one client who had a careless driveing charge that was 20 years old--he got lippy with an overzealous border guard. That Careless charge was translated into a criminal code violation referred to as Dangerous Driveing in Canada-- admitance denied.

There are a couple of ways to mitigate this. It basically involves buying a pardon which costs $200 for short term and $1000 for long term--plus legal fees and it can take a long time to get either.

I have a nephew--30 yrs old who hasn't had a drink since he was 23. Got a simple DUI and straightened right out--he spent $750 in legal fees plus a bunch of money getting paperwork resolved and is still ineligible for entry. My brother on the other hand bought the $1000 pardon several years ago and has never had a problem since--course he's over 60 now and also hasn't had a drink in several years.

I also had a client come hunting with me who was under indictment for murder--he got across the border no problem.

You can call the border and they will give you all pertinent information--but--nothing is written in stone--it all boils down to the border guard you talk to when first entering.

I can tell you from practical experience that it is very hard to get a group of guys together--fishermen-snowmobilers--or hunters that someone in the group has an old charge that will deny them entry.

There must be strings that can be pulled, with enough money. and a team of barristers.
The major sports teams get all the players back, and forth.
I doubt if all those fellows are choir boys.

March 1, 2012

Changes announced by the Canadian government this week will make it easier for Americans with a single drunken-driving or other misdemeanor conviction to enter Canada.

Under the changes, Americans who are convicted of an offense -- including a DWI -- and receive no imprisonment and have no other convictions or charges could receive a free Temporary Resident Permit (TRP) -- which normally costs $200.

But the directive from Citizenship and Immigration Canada still leaves admission to the discretion of each border officer. And the free pass is a one-time exemption.

Click Here

Government of Canada official rule change site Click Here

Overcoming Canadian criminal inadmissibility rules Click Here

Thanks, everyone! Pretty sure that he will be going on the Alaska Marine Ferry. I appreciate all who took the time to post.

Just to clarify one comment made by k kahmann. He suggested that in a group there could be someone who had a charge which would result in non-entry. Not quite sure if it is what he meant but it sounded like he thought the entire group would be denied entry. This is not correct as I understand it. Only the person with the record would have a problem.

Of course when there are several persons travelling together in the same vehicle the group can hardly leave one of their party standing by the side of the road so the rest can continue.

The outfitter whose services we were using when this first became a problem had one group of 4 US hunters who were travelling together in one vehicle. When one member of the group was turned back, all 4 of them left. This cost the outfitter something like $10,000. The restriction was apparently imposed without any prior warning. As a result not only were the hunters inconvenienced and lost their hunting trip but the outfitter suffered considerable financial loss through no fault of his own.

Jim

Another of the issues that should be clearer from the get go, and trouble headed off at the pass.

Anyone reading this should have a "heads up" for sure.

In the last 6-7 years, I've seen one guy turned away in International Falls and the mention was "DWI" in states. And, yet another denied in front of me in line at Saskatoon airport customs. He was there to hunt with a group of his buddies and was being denied admission. I don't know how that one turned out but the guy prolly ended up in jail because he became unglued. Can't imagine making the flight and getting that surprise.

I would consider talking to an agent at the point of entry he wants to cross and, if they say it's a go, I'd document the name of that person and get something writing before charting course.

Never hurts to be prepared ahead of time. The US can and has denied our "criminals" access to the USA as well for having a record. I guess the thinking, right or wrong, is if you are planning on entering into a foreign country, know ahead of time what may affect your admissability. Over the years, we have had such an open border policy with the USA that when things tighten up, it's hard to get our heads around it, knowing how things "used to be."

My buddy and I went last October on a moose hunt in Newfoundland. Upon arriving at the border, one of the first three questions was had anyone ever been convicted of a DUI, which he had. He hung his head and told the truth...and that was that, they let us through.

Can't say this is the norm, but what happened this particular circumstance.

Jim--you got it--one guy denied in the party sometimes results in the whole party turning around and the outfitter is out big bucks.

Skane--there is no such thing as callin ahead to the border--the decision is made by the boots on the ground at the time you present yourself at the border--and no one--not no one will alter that decision once made.

Brother Kieth--much truth to what you say but we are dealing with a gov't beaurocracy here.

If you have a long history of crossing the border frequently it is not generaly a problem--it is always the new guys who get blindsided.

I advise and stress this to all my parties and every year we still have problems. The rules change so frequently that even the boots on the ground are never current with all the rule changes.

I could write a book about the problems at Pigeon River crossing but nobody reads stupid stuff.

Good morning kkahmann, I'd want to question the statement about no one reading stupid stuff.
I went to school into fifth grade with Janet Daily of bustier novel fame.
I'm jealous of all the money she made with those books.

From what I have read it is possible to have a record expunged if the conviction(s) occurred some specific number of years in the past. I believe it involves hiring an attorney and who knows what other costs. It is probably a worthwhile step if the party involved has plans to travel anywhere out of country. There may be countries other than Canada who will restrict entry depending on how they interpret the convictions.

It seems a little draconian for, say, a one time offence a long time ago. I don't know at what point the border staff interpret something as chronic behavior.

There is a lot I do not understand about this subject so obviously an attorney is the place to go for advice. I think the Canadian outfitters for the most part are doing a good job of warning potential clients from the US about this.

It would be interesting to know whether they apply the same standards to persons wanting to enter the country from countries other than the US. It could be quite a shock for someone from the United Kingdom or elsewhere in Europe if they got turned back after reaching our borders.

Jim

The general type of people entering on a hinting, or fishing trip to Canada would be often a group of men under the age of 50, or so.
The authorizes might consider that demographic group be pose a bigger hazard than say, a librarian's convention.

Jim--it is possible to get a pardon for prior indescretions. If you spend as much time around an AA table as I have you hear a lot about it. Some forms of employment require it. Nothing ever gets erased--unless it involves a conviction of a person under age.

Brother Kieth would know more about this I'm sure than I do but what happens when an officer runs your name thru CPIC or NCIP or whatever their database is called the date of conviction comes up and then the date of Pardon. Some officers will then get cute and ask you what the conviction was for--he already knows--its right there in front of him. He's just checkin to see how truthful you are.

There are also some rather devious lawyers out there that will fill out the forms for you and charge several hundred dollars for it. You can get the forms yourself on-line--Service Ontario kiosks are very helpful with this. Fill them out and in due course you will get a response. Generally if your fines have been paid and probation served and enough time has elapsed you will get it. Problems occur chasing down all the relevant paperwork and lawyers aren't much help with that--at least not in my experience.

I live on an Indian reserve and have helped several guys with this--I just thank God I've never had to do it myownself.

Years ago, when this first started, $200 could get you through. Lately, it's been "take some AA courses, apply for a pardon". I've had clients spend 4 years addressing this before getting clearance, and then allowed for "one time only" until Ottawa sends them official papers to present, which took forever. Cost is usually about $5000, so only worth it if Canada appears regularly in your future.

I wonder if the cost to a US citizen is a high as here in Canada? Could be another case of the inflated costs we are exposed to here.

If the costs are as high in the US I can easily see why someone would strike Canada off as a destination of choice.

I still wonder what the reaction of other countries is with regard to these types of records.

Jim

I know the way it used to be, but I've been out of the loop for over a decade now. Some things rarely change, but some things are in a constant state of flux. The rules are different for a Canuck going south than they are for a Yankee coming north -- it's a geography thing.

If I recall, the USA requires more than just a pardon of a Canadian's record. Have a couple of acquaintances who had to go the extra step, but I don't remember what it was.

For our southern neighbours coming north, I have no idea, but I know if you lie to the immigration people, and they find out through NCIC checks, you're going home for sure.

Keith, In my last post I was actually wondering more about someone from here or the US travelling to Europe or other eastern countries. The Islamic countries in particular since they don't allow the use of alcohol in their countries.

Jim

I can't comment on that, Jim. Never had anything to do with it. But with all the oil field workers that go over there to work, you'd wonder if there weren't some that had been tapped for impaired driving along the way,

It could be the old, "Follow the money"

If it is worth it, cash can lubricate many things.

I have traveled to Ontario fishing every year for the past 5 years. I have never once been asked if I had a DUI conviction (which I don't). All I'm ever asked is where I am going, how long I plan to stay, and whether I have tobacco or alcohol in the car.

So perhaps a lot of it has to do with the hunting part of it. The mixing of firearms with alcohol.

The custom people know a lot about you before they see your license, or passport. The camera takes a picture of your plate before you are at the booth.

They scan your ID into a computer and pull up whatever is in government records on both sides of the border. No record of DUI so that's why they have not asked you. (The alcohol question is driven by tax/duty rather than safety! )

They sometimes ask a question to see if you give the same answer that is on their screen.

At the same time, having a firearm sets some of them on edge. As many have said, a huge portion of the ease or difficulty of crossing depends on the individual border guard you happen to encounter.

Border crossing is kind of like Russian roulette with a lot more empty cylinders.

well, I have found every Ontario border guard I have ever dealt with to be very friendly and helpful.

My wie & I went into Canada last Nov. for a deer hunt. Entered at the SE corner of Saskasawan, don't remember the small town but it was NW of Minot. We were headed to Alberta for the hunt. We were at the customs bldg. maybe 10 minutes and on our way. We came back thru headed home and was there about 20 min., had to fill out a form for the meat we were taking back home. Not a problem going or coming. I don't remember being asked anything about alcohol.

If customs fails to ask about, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and ammunition , they are being derelict in their duty.

I live in MI and get into Canada once or twice a year. I have flown to SK a couple of times as well.

Here is what I have noticed. When entering through an airport, the customs people appear to have already profiled you based on the info provided by the airlines. If you have a DUI, they know.

When entering by vehicle the customs people often ask the cursory questions and let the vehicle enter without taking the passports into the office. I assume a camera ran the tags on the vehicle first, but would not know the background for all of the passengers. If you are a passenger and the vehicle is not registered to you, you may very likely slide through.

When I am entering, I am almost always hunting with firearms, so I get to spend quality time with the agents. They definitely run my info.

Yes, the luck of the draw seems to have a lot to do with it.

I suspect that many people each year enter Canada without being asked about alcohol, firearms, etc. However, my stepson is driving with a restricted license. Legally, he can only drive a vehicle equipped with an ignition interlock. This fact is noted on his driver's license so he would be readily identified as someone with one or more DUIs on his record.

His current plan is to fly commercial and ship his truck to Alaska. The company is paying for all of this. He still hopes to drive the AlCan Highway someday.

Thanks again for all of your responses.

When I crossed the border in the Yukon territory from Alaska they took all our passports. Told me to park I also declared two firearms as well. Anyhow I was in their they go can you go get such and such he went in they took him in the back room and the talking started long story short they let him into Canada but they told him they could of denied him entry because he had a reckless driving conviction on his record. Their have been several GI's make it to the beaver creek customs in the Yukon Territory to be turned around because they gotten a DUI or something else the would prevent them entry into Canada but the funny thing The Beaver Creek station is about 10-15 miles inside Canada. Crossing back into the good ol USA our guys looked at the passports asked some questions said welcome to the US and sent us on our way.

Don't forget . . . . . . Canada is a foreign country to you guys. Our country -- our rules. (whether we like them or not.) When we head south -- your country -- your rules. I almost got turned back in Sault Ste Marie Michigan once for having some peaches. The USA is a foreign country to us Canucks as well.

If we could get the bureaucrats to use some common sense, it might be a better world for sportsman.

I could agree if the conviction(s) were at least several years old. (Don't know how many "several" would be.)

On the other hand if the conviction(s) are recent how does the border agent know they have cleaned up their act? We have enough fatalities and injuries caused by our own impaired drivers without importing others from out of country.

Jim

Spot on as usual Jim.
That is where the logic comes in.

I think it is a matter of a Criminal Record more than an impaired driver.

Have crossed the USA/Canada borders around 20+ times. In every crossing, the Canadian border guards were consistently friendly and helpful, no exceptions.

Now with the USA guards, and there are about twice as many as the Canadian guards, some were helpful and about a third acted like they were doing you a favor by letting you get back to the States. Every time I saw a USA guard being a jerk, or uninterested despite a line of people waiting to get in, I was embarrassed for my country.

It's pretty sad.

Steve

There's jerks on both sides Sir.

It is my understanding that DUI or DWI is treated in Canada to be a more serious offence than it is in the USA. I'm not sure if you are suggesting that the refusal of entry may be related to criminal offences other than drinking offences or not. As I am not a lawyer I certainly do not understand the technicalities involved here.

I do know that the first time I was at an outfitters and he had clients refused entry they told the outfitter specifically the refusal was related to a prior drinking offence. Since the first time I believe I have heard of two other such instances from outfitters. The outfitters tell me they advise their potential clients to check with border officials prior to arriving if they have any criminal(?) background and usually specifically mention to the potential client about prior drinking convictions.

It is on this background that I based my comments.

Jim

I bet I've been across the border several 100 times at least...

only a few times has it been a negative experience...and that has been on both sides of the border...

but I admit, I quit flying for a living after 2001, due to my last name being profiled.. which precluded that I give give up my job as a regional manager working for the Company in Canada I was employed by.. ( but they sold the division, and I declined the job offer by the new owners)....

with new laws and being divorced from the bitch from hell, I can't even cross the border into Canada any more....but it still doesn't take away from the fact, that our neighbors to the north are still some of the best folks on the planet...
no matter how wacky some of them can get at times...

Jim,

I have explained this before, but in the USA, DWI is a criminal offence, as it is in Canada. However, in the USA, if I have it right, most DWI is a misdemeanor, whereas in Canada, the classification of impaired driving is a dual procedure offence. Dula procedure means the Crown Attorney gets to make the call as to how it is prosecuted -- either by summary conviction, what the USA calls a misdemeanor, or by indictment, what the USA calls a felony.

Because in Canada, a dual procedure offence like impaired driving is viewed generally in its more serious iteration, the criminal record shows a conviction that may have been for an indictable offence, and so it is considered a felony for Americans trying to come accross the border.

Canada's dual procedure offences are considered indictable (felonies) for the purposes of arrest. Makes them more serious.

ANY criminal record, IIRC can turn a person back. DWI is just one that is seen more often. In our small town, we used to see 300 DWI's in a year. That's 300 people who wouldn't normally have had a criminal record getting the status every year.

Don't know if that helps or confuses. Hope it helps.

I experienced the same surprise at Saskatoon airport customs, and I had previously been through Canadian customs at Calgary and Edmonton. Saskatoon is tough.

Back in 1965, I was driving with 3 friends in my car and one of them who was on leave from the Navy wanted to go to a red light area. We did and he got into an argument with two street walkers (there was some cursing) at the next traffic signal the cops pulled in behind us with the emergency lights on. They said the two ladies were going to press charges for verbal assault, and we had some beer in the car and were under 21. They took us to jail but released us the next morning saying the two street walkers were not pressing charges and the police didn't press charges about the beer either (we were not drunk) I never considered that I had a criminal record for all of these years because there were no charges filed for anything, ever!

When I was drafted into the Army later the same year, I mentioned this, they checked and didn't find a record, and it didn't keep me from being drafted. It has never stopped me from buying guns through the FBI check, I have passed other security checks including ExxonMobil and BP, So I was really surprised the Saskatoon airport customs had a problem with me when in previous years there had been no problem at Calgary or Edmonton.

I believe there is a difference of perception about what is a CRIMINAL. In America, it seems to be if there has been a conviction, or possibly filed on for something.
In Canada it seems to be if you were ever taken to a police station for anything.

I am in the process of having this expounged, the expungement attorney couldn't find any records of this but continued to pursue because and eventually found it in the county archives on some microfilm, but only because I gave him the precise month and year.

So fellow Americans if you have ever been taken to a police station, it would be wise not to go to Saskatoon.

OceanBlue, interesting post. Some of those who have crossed the border without trouble will not believe it could happen to them but those with ears can hear you.

A couple of years ago a business that I worked with in Canada was buying a product from the US that required a trainer to come up and train the employees. A gracious grey haired international traveler and trainer was their man and he made two preliminary trips to our office in Canada. No problem.

When he came to do the week of training he was turned back at the border by a chippy border gal. In spite of letters etc. they had previously approved, the gal and her superiors dug in their heels and refused him entry when we brought his full documentation the next day. They had combed his history and found a teenage drinking event (he was 57 years old) and that was the nail in the coffin. Refused entry. That is now in his file if he ever tries to cross the border again.

FWIW we did the training in Bellingham, WA. We cancelled lodging and meals in Canada and paid for them in the US, plus more for trainee meals down there. I'm sure that Canadian businesses and the cancelled hotel appreciated being protected from having this guy spend money in Canada, but that is a side issue.

Travel to Canada most every summer to northern SK. So glad I never screwed up so bad as to get a DUI in my younger years.

I worked with a gentleman from Regina who had previously worked as an LEO in Regina. He explained to me that the database available to customs and border officials in CAN is unbelievable. They have access to most everything.

I hosted a group of people into Alberta from Texas to look at some eqt at a college in Airdrie. We got pulled in for secondary questioning as we had 4 adult males and 2 adult females. Most of us unrelated from a total of 2 different states. We were asked if any of us had ever been convicted of crime in US. I had to admit to a minor game violation and an open container while walking on a street, not driving. Another guy was confronted that he hadn't admitted to an assault charge from 40+ years prior. His father was a district judge and had the record expunged, yet they still had access to the records.

As to DUI or other offenses, my impression is that the border official has a great deal of latitude in handling these matters. Which is why I am completely civil, polite and respectful whenever I come to a border crossing. Because being denied entry today can have long lasting issues in the future when you want to enter CAN at a later date.

Tarkio--I tell my clients that if Sister Ann Michele slapped your butt in 3rd grade for speaking out of turn the border guards have access to it before they even ask for your Id.

I know a number of people who have gotten the pardon thingy but the pardon thing does not delete the record.

The first agent you speak to does have a great deal of latitude--but if he or she denies your entry--no one--not no one will overturn that decision.

I agree with you on the comment regarding no one changing what the previous agent did.

My understanding is that if I get denied entry today, it can actually impact my attempt to enter again next week, next month etc.

NCIC and CPIC are the two criminal name indeces that all enforcement and border patrol officers have access to. It takes literally seconds to retrieve the data from either of them. Deal is - - - tell the truth. The truth may not get you across the borser to the north, but a lie, if detected will surely get you sent south.

BTW -- same goes for Canucks heading south. Criminal record can get you denied entrance to the states.

Absolutely. Absolute truth and a pleasant demeanor will get you as far as you could possibly go. Lying or acting rudely will end your trip prematurely.

Ditto that! Anyone would be a fool to show anger or rudeness to someone who has total control over your fate at that moment.

Re the rest of the officers backing their first man's call:

I was turned back from entering Canada once even though I lived there when a young overbearing summer border intern(?) in the booth made a mistake about vehicle registration. He warned me not to try to cross the border in that vehicle somewhere else because I would be arrested and the vehicle impounded. They had a more senior officer walk beside my driver side door as I drove slowly back to the US checkpoint. It wasn't a huge deal to me, slight inconvenience to fix. I smiled at the escort cop and said, "Your man made a mistake and you all have to back him." The man did not say a word but his expression confirmed that exactly.

The US border guys laughed a gut buster at the whole deal.

FWIW we have it pretty good going both ways. Bulgarian border guards were so rude in a long series of sequential stops that a Bulgarian business woman travelling with me apologized for the rudeness of her country.

A tough looking Pakistani military officer looked at my Canadian passport, pulled me out of line, chewed me out and sent me to the back of the longest line to passport control. When I got to the front of the line, he pulled me out and put me at the back of the longest line again! My travelling partner went right through with his US passport. We never had any idea what that was about.

Nigerian passport control held us for nearly two hours hoping for a bribe. We'd been briefed and told that our best solution was to stay cheerful, never show annoyance nor impatience and that at the worst they would let us go at the end of their shift.

I remember in the late 70s crossing from Switzerland into Germany and back into Switzerland in about 25 kilometres, and all the guards had SMGs leveled at us. Please Lord, don't let my foot slip off the brake pedal.