You can see how crazy Americans in these forums are about reloading and trying to find the perfect loads that will make their hunting rifles shoot like target rifles, and perform flawlessly on all sorts of game.

I was wondering how much reloading, testing of factory ammunition, and use of chronographs there is among the European hunters.

I am particularly curious about those who use cartridges like the 7x57, 7x65R, 7x64, and the .270 Winchester, especially in carbines like the Mannlicher or BRNO Mauser. The .270 seems to be, or have been, a fairly popular cartridge in the UK and Europe, judging by the advertisements and articles I read in the magazines from there.

Ok, now we're talkin. I want to hear some ".275 Rigby vs. 7x57 Which one is better for Roe" arguments!

Alan

Usually, when a rifle is stamped ".275 Rigby", you can bet is going to be somewhat upscale.

Reloading is not very common at all here.

Hunters and sport shooters / paper punchers are most of the time two very different worlds, IMO.

For exemple: I go to the range 2 times a year to check my zero, my own hability to hit a target at 100 meters and train myself on moving target ("running boar") (But I hunt all year long and regularly shoot at foxes, crows, pigeons and - I hope it's going to become usual now - boars).

I still fire more cartdiges in two training sessions than in 30 group hunting days and about 30 lone hunting evening or mornings I have in a year.

Most popular cartridges I use to see around me are:

8x57 jrs and 9.3x74 r in double barreled / express rifles
7x64 Brenneke, 9.3x62 and some 30.06 in bolt and in-line action rifles
.300 WM, .270 Win, 280r and the .300 / .270 WSMMMmmmmmms in S.A.

I personnaly use .375 HH Mag and 7x64 in bolt action rifles. Those last 2 years I used only the .375.

You regularly shoot at foxes and pigeons with a .375 H&H Mag? Wow! No wonder your face looks like that.

I'm just giving you a hard time. I think......

Alan

Hi dear friends,

As Grand Veneur said handloading is not a commun thing with french hunters too. Except the guys who use old calibers or want to improve performance on game from such calibers as 45_70, 444, and 30WCF and 44Mag, or for old euro calibers, mostly german.
Today it's really difficult to improve on precision of industry loaded cartridges for hunting purposes. For my business i have the chance to test and shoot about all the combination of possible cartridges. I you have an honest rifle, a good scope, and really knows how to shoot, it's difficult to find bad factory cartridges;
But in my case i began handloading in 66 when 9 years old with my father's Lyman nut crackers (a large and a small) then went to RCBS and Lyman Orange crusher, i was moulding 38SP and 30-30 bullets a age of 10 (i stopped long time ago, now i buy lead bullets from Montana Bullets) so i follow on handloading cartridges and when not testing factory ammo i hunt with mine. Mostly for lever guns: 348Winch, 356Winch, 405Winch, 45-70 and now .50Alaskan. I one place where i hunt in battue we are between 16 to 22 hunters (depends of weather!) we are six handloaders; calibers run from 44Mag to 50 Alaskan throught 375 Ruger and 416Rem Mag. I have also some friends who handload else where and sometimes we prepare special cartridges for friends. Mostly 44Mag and 444Marlin with tougher and heavier bullets to limit meat destruction as often occur with frangible factory loads.
Here are some of the lever i reload for...

To Lee2',

Speaking for France, yes the 270 is really well appreciated in our country even in semi auto rifle like BAR and to a lesser extend Rem 74OO, mostly used in stalking, high seats or mountain hunting the 270 got really good reports in battue hunting far better than his small caliber seem to offer. In driven hunt most used bullets are 150 to 160grs like the new XP3, the old Lapua Mega160, the nex loading from Norma with 156 Vulkan. handloagers use 150 and 160 Partition mostly. I use also 170Hawk. We have also special french made lead free bullets the Sologne GPA and the Sauvestre Fip loaded in France which have sterling reputation.
The 7x57 aka 275Rigby is forbidden in France (yes it is) cause it's a former military caliber. It's rimmed version is free and you can find it in old drilling or mixte (one rifled and one smooth barrel)but the 7x65R, more potent tend to replace the former. It's about the equal of a factory ladden 280Rem and is powerful enough for all the game we hunt if the bullet is in vital zone. As all the smaller calibers, it's a bit light on heavy game hunted by dogs drive, cause they are full of adrenaline and the shot could be a little border line. I use some time the 7x65 for mountain hunt in a Merkel K1 kipplauf and i even shot a swedish moose (390kg)with it in dog's driven hunt.
I also killed big red stag does and some good wild boars using only Norma Oryx factory made or 150grs Partition handloaded max.

Alan:

Yes I shoot foxes with my 375 and damages could be greater with a quickly expanding .222 or a quicker .223 WSSM.

No I don't shoot pigeons and crows with my .375. This wasn't about the gun and caliber I use but about the practice ... In such a case I simply use a shotgun ...

Hi Grand Veneur

You're right about the 375 be it a H&H or a Ruger it destroy less meat than a 300Winch with light bullets or even in case of foxes a 22-250 with Nosler BT at short range.
For town pigeons and even in country in center of France (mother in lax house) i like to use an air gun. In this case un AA 410 with moderator, scoped, in 22 caliber. This PCP air rifle with 10 shots drum is a wonderfull killing machine for such flying rats.

Dom

I was talking about the "ramier" pigeons (palombes) ...

By the way, it is legal to shoot them with a .375 ...

I understand, i hunt ramier too, but i absolutly dislike town pigeons and normally you can't shot them it's forbidden but they are as i said before flying rats. You can't shot them but cities spent hundreds of thousand euros to poison them...Crazy world we live in!!
With the 375 it could be interesting.....

grand veneur and Marseille,

I just acquired a 7x64mm last year and am learning it. I bought the rifle, a BRNO 22F, and would not have cared what caliber. Mine has a 21 inch barrel and I am thinking of later buying an full rifle in 23 or 24 inch barrel, like a Steyr M or Sako, or building one on a Mauser or Ruger 77 action.

I am shooting some 175-gr Remington factory ammunition in the 7x64 now, and some Norma. Next, I will reload the brass with 140-grain CoreLokt, 154-grain Hornady, and 160-gr Sierra bullets and test for accuracy and velocity from this carbine.

So Marseille, what sort of velocity are you getting from your Merkel 7x65R with various ammunition, and what do you like on game? That is a fabulous stalking rifle.

I also have a 20-inch .270 Steyr M carbine, so I wonder what makes of rifles you shoot, and what loads you find work the best in them, both in accuracy and velocity.

GV, like I said, I'm just kidding. I have never shot a 375 H&H but I have shot my 35 Whelen. I'm going to guess that the recoil on the 375 is somewhat more than the 35. I'm not a little guy and can take my fair share of recoil but I'm developing a twitch and a ringing in my ears just sitting here thinking about walking around plinking and taking pot shots at varmints with a 375 H&H Magnum. To each his own I suppose.

Alan

With the Nosler Partition 150grs i was around 870m/s with VN160 and 58grs. Its a load for the 7x64 but as the Norma cases are strong and the Merkel K1 very strong, i was hot loading a little bit the rimmed case. With that load and some factory Oryx 170grs (changed to 156grs now) i shot 23 pieces of game in two years including a moose (that i doubled cause i though it was too big) with 25 shots.
I wounded a big boar in driven hunt, shot high on the spine crest (in french: apophyse)it fell like dead, only to go back on his legs to disappear five minutes later. Was killed a week later. It was the only miss in 25 shots. This rifle shoots bullets like if they are guided. Now i will use 140TTSX, if i can get good precision cause i will get a little bit more speed and this bullets are tough enough for the game i hunt.
The 7x64 is as good as 270 and 280, in France it's often used in driven hunt even in semi auto rifles from Merkel, Sauer, Browning, Verney Carron with good results. Normaly the case head is a little smaller in diameter than the standard 8x57IS/30-06 case.The 154grs Interlock that i tried in some 7x64 gave good velocity, not much pressure and good precision. My brother had a ZKK600 in 7x64. He reloaded with Speer 160grs GranSlam for around 860m/s with french Vectan Tu7000 powder but don't recall the weight.
Was a good killer that load for boars. Vectan Tu7000 is very close to the 4350s, so this powder must be OK as are the 4831 with heavier bullets like 175/180grs.
The SteyrM is really one of the best rifle ever made, i'm in love affair with them cause i'm former salesman for former french Steyr distributor. I think if i was in the US i would reload a 130grs with the standard charge of IMR4831. You must have a winner!!!!

Dom

Alan, you should know Belgian people, especially southerners like me, have no sense of humor

My 375 HH has a straight comb stock - US typical - a good pachmayr recoil absorber and, scoped, weighs around 10 pounds (See it: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1592220 )... The result is a very reasonable recoil. Of course there is a hard blast that reduces shooting comfort compared to the one of a light caliber rifle but actual recoil speed and energy are quite affordable.

And .... yes, this is not necessary not reasonable but ... I like it

Here's my borrowed rifle in a really nice sitting spot in Germany last July..
It's an old guild gun , 20 gauge over 5.56x52r. Seen quite a few of that caliber in Germany along with 7x64. Cool little cartridge that 5.56 savage is.

I really liked this gun with it's exposed hammers and I really got attached to it. The gun's owner thought differently. It had an older Zeiss on top.

Did I already say I like hammer guns?

Ironically, the older Zeiss burned me about an hour later at dusk when a Rehbok came off the hill and I could see him with glass but not with the old scope. That's the breaks, LOL.

If it weren't for the Europeans preserving the Savage 22 High Power in their combination guns, we Savage 1899 lovers would be in trouble for cartridges.

I have seen some other French hunting sites posting about their lever guns. They have good taste in those old Winchesters, but I am surprised to not see more of the older Savage 1899s in .22 HP. I suppose it is more of a problem finding one, or buying it here and getting it shipped over the Atlantic.

I like those Over/Under rifles I see in .444 Marlin. That would be a great gun for driven boar or stag in the woods (or a big cat).

I have and 1899 takedown in 22 HP. The S&B ammo I have for it is (I believe) corrosive because of the horrible experience I had after shooting it for the first time. Normal cleaning with gun oil and then looking down the bore two days later. I gave it the hot soapy water treatment and it has been fine since. It is very rough and it is one of my project guns. The only dies I've found are about $125 new and I have yet to see .228 bullets. Even with the dies and cast bullets I think it would still require some $$$ to get set up. As much as I shoot it S&B has enough ammo for now.

Alan

Hornaday used to make bullets for the 22HP-70gr .227
I looked and they still do.
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=190205

Bucktale:

That scope, I wouldn't hunt with and the caliber seems just too light game / stalking specific for me but ... I really like the rifle !!!

All that has been said about European hunters is true but they are exceptions, I for instance. As a former competition shooter, I came to hunting via guns, 36 years ago. Except for factory ammo I receive free for testing purposes (I'm a free lance gun writer), I never buy ammo and handload for all my shooting needs, be it target or hunting (BTW, I don't remember one instance where I was not able to improve precision by handloading). All my rifles average below MOA, including 9,3's and double rifle (i'ts not really necessary for hunting, I know it's all in the head but it instils supreme confidence). I visit the shooting range twice a week and fire around 2000 rifle rounds/year of assorted calibers.

To bucktale

Too bad you had such an old scope, no good for dusk and down. The Savage 99 are rarer than Winchester and Marlin in our piece of woods but i know some that went hunting season long in France. Mostly in 300Savage and 358Winch. I've got one in Quebec when living there in 300 (old one with magazine loading control hole in the receiver)
I have a Brno single shot in 22HP Savage, the time i bought it cost me nothing, so with a little work, it has a not so bad trigger now and a small S&B fixed 4power on it. With RWS bullets and a good handload it's an honest roe deer caliber if you stay inside 100 to 120meters. I use it sometime went i'm tired of my K1Merkel in 7x65R or my custom winch 70 in 270. Would have any fear to use it for a small hog in the 50kg range to the same distances. I found the RWS bullets better than the Hornady but they are not made today so i try to save them. Norma is always producing this caliber and they are OK.

For Andr�,

For sure you can improve a little bit on precision but for hunting purposes, as you said, it's only in the head.
I also shoot two times a week for business and pleasure with between 4500 to 6000 cartridges depend the year. Normally i reload for target shooting but at the end of the month i have a friendly shooting competition with military and civil friends (400 and 600m on 200m targets)no time, no envy to reload, i will use Remington match loading in 300WM in my Steyr SSG04.I know it will be up to the task if i do my best and don't cost too much.

Hello Marseille,

As told by grand_veneur in the Hunting Rifle section, I ask you about Gastinne-Renette:
�Did Gastinne-Renette still exist at Paris? I have a beautiful 12 ga side by side shotgun from them, made for my Greatgrandfather (a Frenchman) more than 100 years ago. Still in his original blue and in perfect working order...!!! The only marks in the barrels are : Gastinne-Renette A Paris, on top, and under the chambers : the nominal bore, 18,4 and Leopold Bernard -Cannonier a Paris.
I want to know more about this shotgun.
Thank you and Best Regards,

PH

Marseille,

I quote you below



Can you identify the SteyrM please?

http://www.steyrarms.com/products/hunting-rifles/ I am not at alll sure that this is the correct website for your Steyr rifle.

Hi PatagonialHunter,

No, it's a pity, but the Gastine-Renette gunsmith is out of business and the fantastic and beautifull shop, known by all the wealthy people, Kings and Queens of the 19 and 20th century was sold in 2002 to the french hair dresser group Jacques Dessange.
But for sure your shotgun is pricey piece of gunsmithing. Is it boxlock or side locks?

Dominique

Hi Savage 99,

The SteyrM was the one made on the rear locking lugs action (the same as the sniper rifle SSG69). The production stopped in 1996 when Steyr introduced the SBS 96 bolt, with front lugs that lock in a barrel bushing. The change was not a good idea, (in Europe and France for sure) cause the sales of the SBS never caught on that of the former model. These rifles had the typical Steyr removable rotary magazine made in synthetic material, they were thin, light, fast to the shoulder with a short bolt travel and short action (compare to SBS) and with an fantastic accuracy.
To be honnest the SBS is as accurate as the former model (i have both) and extremely resistant to over pressure and wear. But as a former salesman for the french distributor i always have a preference for the old one (not to be confused with Sch�nauer or M72). At the moment the sniper version SSG69 is always available in Europe.

Marseille,

Thank you so much for the detailed response on the SteyrM. Could you show a picture of one?

Thanks again

Reloading is pretty popular with British shooters, whether they are target target shooters or stalkers/hunters..

With target shooting, 50 cal/1000m shooting is getting more and more popular, although its been hampered by the shortage of 1000m ranges open to civvies..

The other thing thats getting more and more common is the use of sound moderators on centrefire rifle...They've always been nearly universal on .22LR rifles, but these days it seems you see more rifles of all types with them than without..

A 'silencer' on a rifle makes so much sense yet they are ignored for the most part in the USA. Heck I jump when the guy with the land behind our house shoots.

I have little experience with silencers or sound moderators as you call them. A few years ago a retired cop was at our club range shooting a .308 that he had bought from some department. It was amazing how little noise that powerful round made. He was going to use it for hunting a little north of me where I am in Connecticut.

I never saw him again at the range. Too bad as one would be cool.

They really do work well...These days, there are lots of models to choose from, with some being as slim as 32mm o/s diameter..

Mine is of the "old style" and is quite bulky although in the pic it also has a neoprene cover on it as well....It is a modular design so I can buy conversions to use it on different calibers if I so wish..Plus I can add or remove baffles to make it shorter or longer, depending on the application.



The other advantage of them is that they reduce the recoil to virtually nothing, in fact its unusual not to see the bullet strike with it fitted..

I'm not 100% sold on this particular model and I'm considering getting a slimmer less bulky one, but I beleive the noise reduction is not so effective..

Regards,

Peter

Thank you Dominique,

It is a sidelock. It was made well before 1910. But, apart of their 65 mm chamber, it is a truly modern shotgun: Steel barrels (as I told signed by Leopold Bernard), ejectors and a perfect pull of the triggers. It was used, a lot, by my Greatgrandfather, my Grandfather, an uncle and me. I send, a few years ago, to one of the best gunsmith for shotguns in Argentina, for adjust its slight loosness and open the choques to a 1/4 and 3/4 (from 3/4 and full original choques). But apart from it, it has its original blueing and all.
I have had also a Mannlicher-Shoenauer GK with a latteral base and rotary scope mount with the Gastinne-Renette brand on it. It is one of the best scope mount I have had. It is sad to know this firm doesn�t exist anymore.
Best Regards,

PH

Steyr M Luxus fullstock in boat cabin - sort of dark.


Steyr M Luxus rifle with Warne QD rings, oil finish.

Pete E,

I am so glad that you brought up this topic of 'silencers'. Here in CT in particular we have a good supply of deer and other varmints as well and even though the state is small and heavily populated there are places to hunt.

In fact the state law reads that if the private land where we have permission has ten or more acres then a rifle can be used. Frequently this land is near other houses. A silencer would be wonderful.

I intend to pursue this tomorrow on my gun shop trip.

Here is a picture of deer in CT in season. There are houses up to the left in those woods and in fact I am in the barnyard of a farm. The distance to the deer is about 250 yards. The white stuff is snow.

Looks like a job for a .300 Whisper with a Griffin suppressor.

A stop at the local class 3 dealer told me that they want to sell me a silencer and have 'some' experiance at it. Others told stories of poor work done through them on the installation.

They said $700 to $900 for one complete silencer and then $200 for the permit. Its not clear that one can be done for the .243? The clerk said one for a .308 would work on a .243 also?

I will stop at another store next week and ask more. So much to do now that spring is really here. Got to get the boat in the water and I don't even have the mooring in!

Savage 99,

A new centrefire mod here will set you back between $275 and about $500 depending on the type. Add another say $100 to have the muzzle threaded and the rifle reproofed...

Theres very little to be done as far as fitting...The muzzle needs threading and possibly the barrel cutting down and recrowning...Not all moderators are threaded the same though so its important to find somebody who knows what they are doing..1/2" UNF is a fairly common thread here but some feel something a bit beefier is better...I would recommend a mod that sleeves back over the barrel as they have a second bushing that takes some of the strain of the front threads..

Regards,

Peter

Hi Savage, Hi Pete,

In France we can't use silencers to hunt but they are free to buy and use on shooting range. We have some good models made in France but we also use Finn BR Tuote, English LEI or Swiss Brugger 1 Thomett. I own a 30-221Whisper (sorry 30-221 not to worry JDJ) made on CZ 527 small action, with Sierra 220 and 240 matchking and french ball powder SP3 (about H110/296 burning rate) i get an air rifle noise and not a powerful one...
For Savage i send an Steyr M picture. This one is in 7x64Brenneke caliber, about the 280 power but developped in 1917. With his new S&B 1,5-6 scope this rifle is less than MOA performer with RWS Evo or H-Mantel or KS from zero to 300m, max hunting distance allowed in France shot on Millet plastic rest.

Sorry picture so small got prob with photo bucket...

Here silencers are considered as forbidden gear. Not only using one, but owning one, even without owning any rifle with a muzzle tread, could lead you to jail or at least cost you your hunting licence and your right to own guns.

Marseille, nice rifle you have. I do not like so much the plastic parts one those Steyr, especially the magazine well and its screw but all steel luxus models are just so fine.

I've read some complaints about the security of the double set trigger they have.

Hi Grand veneur,

How are you? How the weather in Belgium?
About the stetcher (german model two triggers) i ain't got any problem with them on the Steyr M or Luxus but got one with an old Sch�nauer i had. With such trigger you must not play with the set trigger weight and stay to factory settings, light enough for precise work without being dangerous.
Regards
Dom

Hi Marseille, fine Thanks, unlike the weather ... black clouds, hard rain ... so usual, so typical

And you ?



Former owners of Mannlicher M were claiming about the fact their rifles fired when the set trigger was touched from behind. It seems that the particularity was explained in the owner's manual.

Yes it's an issue, if you push the set trigger the rifle can fire but must be real stupid to push that trigger (or the other) and normaly real hunter and safe minded guys arm the set trigger just before the shoot. So for me it's never a problem. Own that for more than twenty years....

Near the Mediterranean sea weather is more like that of North sea, wind, clouds and rain for a moment...Not to bad for me, don't like the summer, too warm, too much people...

Oh pity ! Cold may on the azure coast ?

I've never owned a double set trigger, I don't know how usual it is to deal with.

Anyway the Luxus M is a nice rifle. Far more than the new luxus SBS IMO.

Well I been shooting and hunting with a Model M Professional in 7 x 57 since I bought it, in 1977. It was the best 425 dollars I ever spent. As for Sound Supressors, in the States is regulated like Machine Guns, if you are willing to go thru the paper work and expense, yea you can have, As for hunting with one here I don't think is legal, it would make sense in some places, Like 99 said, in CT all you need is ten acres to hunt with a centerfire rifle, I have 80 myself. Last season was real quite, where I hunt, very little shooting. All the land that surrounds mine belongs to the Nature Concervancy and the town of East Haddam. No hunting of course, so I have plenty of deer to shoot. As a matter of fact East Haddam is one of the better area's in CT to hunt deer or turkeys for that matter. In another ten years or so, we may even have a meaningful moose population. The State says there is about a 100 moose living in the state. So how knows Moose hunting in Conn, maybe something down the road.

I couldn't find this old thread at first, to revive it, so I started a new one.