BobinNH wanted someone to start this thread. I've had one extractor go bad on my 270 fwt, but that's been it. Easily pulled the bad one off and put the new one on. Anyone else have any issues with a pre 64 model 70 rifle? All of mine function flawlessly, triggers work perfectly and tuned to 2.5 pounds, safety's work great, bolt stops work, they extract, eject, feed perfectly and smoothly, bolt handles haven't fallen off or anything like that. Let's hear about your failures. Thanks...

Here is my list of failures;

220 Swift - None
257 Roberts Super Grade - None
264 Win Mag Westerner FWT- None
270 FWT- None
30-06 Standard weight - None
30-06 custom - None
300 Win Mag - None
300 H&H Mag - None
338 Win. Mag - None
358 Win. FWT. - None
375 Win Mag. - None

I won't get specific with the few I own but about like my post nil issues with '64 M70's, M700's, M98, M96 and M77's, nil.

40 yrs. shooting/hunting with pre'64 M/70's zero problems to report.

Pin that allows the safety to line up and function disappeared on one. Smith replaced it. On another, pin that lines up a piece that allows the bolt to move completely rearward came loose. I peened it over and all has been good.

Had to replace an extractor on a pushfeed M70 in .223 to cure an ejection problem. Also had to bend the upper lip of the mag box out a little because it kept barfing the next-to-last round during feeding. The rifle was previously owned.

The pre-64 action is about as rock solid as you will find. It's not surprising we're seeing a lot of "no problems" reported in response to this topic.

The main "weakness" of the pre-64 action (if you could label it this way), is wear at the engagement point between the safety cam and the firing pin. The pin can wear at this location, making the safety stiff, or in extreme cases, permit the pin to creep forward. This is not a design flaw, but results from poor maintenance (lubricating) of the pin and bolt sleeve.

The trigger and sear can also wear if not kept clean and oiled, which results in a terrible "two-stage" trigger pull.

Bottom line - properly maintain your pre-64 action and it will last several lifetimes of regular use. Neglect it and you'll be visiting my website for replacement parts

_

That's about it after 33 years of using them, and having owned 19 different rifles.

I guess that's why I like them.

I tried to figure out how many M70's have passed through my hands and lost count around 50 (and I still have more than a few) and I have NEVER experienced a mechanical problem. The only thing I have ever done was have the stock refinished on a 308 FWT simply because the original finish wore off and bare wood was exposed.

We all were taught by our dad or grandfather to frequently field-strip, clean, and oil our guns. This is why an 80 year old rifle can have a tight action and pristine bore, despite the fact almost all bluing is worn off from use. Not everyone was taught to care for their rifles in this way.

We frequently get rifles into the shop which are so poorly maintained, it's truly mind blowing. The ejectors are cemented into the receiver with a paste of dirt, rust and oil residue. The bolt lugs are galled at the contact points. The extractor ring will barely rotate on the bolt, and underneath the ring we find it dry and dirty. The barrel channel is packed with pine needles and the barrel is pitted with rust from decades of hunting and never pulling the action out of the stock, etc, etc. When people do this, they can expect "failures", even though it is hardly the fault of the rifle design.

I am right there with GSP numbers wise. I broke one extractor a few years ago. I changed it out with an Enfield extractor. Done.

I have (had) one that went through three barrels before I sold it. Another 7 RM that was a favorite and the barrel burned out in about 1500-2000 rounds. I hunted both of them everywhere. Ditto a 300 Win Mag,338,a couple of 375"s (yes they hunted Alaska and killed two brown bears. Not safe queens.) 220 Swift, 257 Roberts,30/06's, other 270's 264's 300 H&H 300 Win Mag, H&H converted to Weatherby.....on and on it goes... Not a bauble with any of them..

The one below started life as a factory 270 FW. I sold it a couple years ago and built/bought a duplicate (that some dope from Alaska recently called a "safe queen". Indeed....it's only one year old and only been on two hunts last year. Both successful.

i bumped into a 243 Standard Grade today for a grand. I may buy it. I hate the cartridge but I know the rifle will work and shoot.

Zero

Many years ago I realized that the front site hood from my P64 M70 Fwt .243 was no longer attached and was somewhere on Chestnut Oak Mountain.

Hardly a failure and that rifle is in at the smith for a new barrel it's had enough rounds down it (>5K). No problem with the .257R or .300 H&H either.

They are not light nor modern but they are my rifle of choice.

"They are not light nor modern but they are my rifle of choice."

That just about sums it up for me too!

A STD 243 for a grand is a good deal if it's in any kind of decent condition. I have both a std and a fwt but much prefer the 257 Roberts.

I think if you have model 70 in your name, you are too biased to answer... That goes for model70man, winpoor, etc... . Geez Don, looks like a damn fine track record...

RiverRider, those are post 64's. Any problem with any pre 64 model 70's?

Thanks battue, that's the kind of info we are looking for. If anyone else runs into this kind of issue, it may help. I've yet to have a pin fall out on any of mine..

Amen buddy!!!

I love that "safe queen" Bob. Looks just like mine, except your stock is a different color. On by the way, thanks for that little enfield extractor trick. I liked my "spare" better and pulled the extractor off my m1917 and replaced it with a pre 64 model 70 extractor. Now the spare is the M1917 one :

Totally agree. This rifle is worth considerably more than a grand. If you can snag it for that, do it.

Sorry, gents. I missed the "pre" in the thread title.

I have only one PRE-64, a 1959 or '60 Westerner in .264 Win Mag. Its only shortcoming is the ugly stock that came with it---which someone here pointed out shortly after I posted pics of it...the buttstock had been recontoured.

Now, had no one said anything I would have never been the wiser, but it began to eat at me every time I looked at it. The poor ugly thing has had a facelift, though.



Before...






After...

Looks much better now riverrider..

Yes sir, it does if I say so myself. It bugged me that I didn't realize the stock had been buggered when I swapped for the rifle, and it bugged me that my ignorance was on full public display when it was pointed out to me. But now when I look at it, it was all worth it.

Anyone wanna buy a throwdown stock for a pre-64? You could use it to preserve your treasured all-original Super Grade stock while in the boonies. If you're hunting hundereds of miles from civilization, no one will even see it.

I have owned at least 70 pre 64 Win 70's, 59 in my book.
Most of these were well used and a few were put togethers.

I had one Sear break on a 257 Roberts.

I have had a few Firing Pins develop burrs hampering the Safety, which were an easy fix.

22 Hornet SG, none
270 FW, none
270 standard rifle, 'smith had to clean 3-pos safety area, all good now.
30-06 Standard, none
New to me 30GOVT06, none yet, waiting on stock
300 H&H SG, none
338-06 Rebore Standard rifle, none

Damn solid rifles

Bud was over the other day before we went shooting and I showed him the FWT I recently got from Yar. This guy knows metal and how to work it. He cycled the bolt and said this is one solid/tight rifle. I stray on occasion, because I like to fool around with different ones, but if I had to choose out of anything made past or present it would be a pre 64 70FWT. One can easily do worse.

I'm surprised you don't have a 375H&H there at the end of the list...

I NEED a 375 to round out the top!

I bet at least part of the problem Winchester had with the pre 64 is the amount of coddling they got by skilled hands. It must have been tough to replace those people as years went by.

Read Rule. It's apparent the rifle got a lot of hands on attention before they left the factory,not to make them"fancy" but to make the shoot and work as a unit.

Despite its virtues you simply do not get this with current manufactured rifles and even with the Classics and post 64's, and even if they did with the Classics,they still did not work at the same level as the pre 64.

I recall something I was told recently,that when the Classic in 416 Remington was being developed,Winchester had to hire two skilled smiths as outside consultants to get the rifles to feed(!!)

You heard it....Winchester workers could not get the rifles to feed and I recall most of tis work started in the Custom shop. I was astonished that there was not enough rifle savy within the 4 walls of Winchester to get a 416 Remington to feed from a M70 action.

But after years with enough Classics, looking back I understand why.

Contrast this to the old engineers and workers at Winchester who were able to get flawless feeding from one action length modified to feed everything from the 22 Hornet to the 375H&h and 458 Winchester, with at least a few odd ball cartridges along the way.

No wonder they work....it ain't nostalgia.

I'm not a collector, but I have had numerous Model 70s. I largely financed four degrees for three daughters through buying, selling, and trading Winchesters, Brownings, S&Ws, Sakos and and other nice firearms. I owned one particular Super Grade 30 Govt 06 three times and hunted it several times, taking my best desert mule deer with it.

I have tinkered with them, refinished some scruffy stocks, and otherwise tweaked them to bring top dollar, but I don't recall having to replace any metallic part other than replacing buggered screws. I used to have a source for replacement red Winchester marked pads and super grade swivels, which have both dried up.

As much as I never understood why, I never carried a .375 or a .458 (any brand on the latter) to a show that did not sell for good money. Two that passed through my hands that I wish I had kept are an early fifties .300 H&H and a .270 barreled action that appeared unfired that I found a period stock for.

My only M70 today is a prewar .270 with some history. A long deceased family friend bought it new, Cousin bought all his guns when he hung them up, loaned me the .270 for a couple of years (62-64) until I could afford my own, then was gifted to me some fifteen years ago when Cousin was killed in an accident. It is well used, but mechanically perfect. The original owner scoped and padded it, likely in the early fifties. I'm thinking that it goes to my grandson. I use it only as a Mule or stand gun. I'm getting old and they are heavy.

My other Winchesters are a mid forties US ordinance marked M12 and a minty 42 that I shoot opening day of dove season most years.

Best wishes,

Jack

I don't know if I would call this a failure or not more of a reloading issue. I have a 358 FWT that if I set the primer just a tad to deep the firing pin won't hit it hard enough to ignite the primer resulting in just a click and no boom:)

GSP that sounds exactly why they are rare. Not enough shoulder and the bolt resizing the case beyond limits.

I have a gunsmith friend who had contacts at the old gunsmith school in downtown Pittsburgh, PA. There used to be reps from Remington, Winchester, and the others down there at graduation day to get the cream for their factories. In those days most of the employees were gunsmiths. That ended 25 or 30 years ago; now they are hired off of the street with no special skills or training.

That is not the first time I heard that about 358's. It can happen with any of them and I think that's the reason they stopped making them.


We don't seem to have any checklists to go through, magazine boxes that bind, actions bedded on top of mag boxes that must be ground down( That one really cracks me up. Must be some sharp bulbs in those plants) screws too long, firing pin protrusions set by a set screw glued in place.......geezus.

Very little breaks very often.

Actually the only commonly available rifle I'm familiar with that seems as durable is a Ruger, which take a lot of abuse and never seem to break,even though they sometimes do not work as well,and sometimes need more tweaking to shoot. Still I trust the things pretty well.

Bob,
Then there is the MRC rifle. Cast receiver-like Ruger-but as close to a 70 as you will find. Have one, and while it hasn't passed the test of time, it shoots well, cleans up easy, with a great trigger after a tweak. A FWT barrel contour would be nice, but I cut around 1.5 inches off and it balances well.

battue you are probably right but I have never owned one,so have no experience.

Seems like when I have the ching to buy, I think about a lot of stuff but mostly grab a clean pre 64 M70. I figure it's always a safe bet.

I figured that would by your answer, purist that you are.

Best part of your bet, would be it is highly likely it will always be at minimum an even bet.

At my age I am not worried about outlasting a clean pre 64 M70.


This one has been sitting around for a couple of years and I finally got it scope mounted and may hunt it this year.

You know....it's one of those safe queens that bugs those hard charging Alaskans so much...LOL

Bsa1917hunter: I have been shooting and Hunting (both Varmints and Big Game) with my pre-64 Winchester Model 70's for 50 years now and have as yet to experience my first "failure" or "malfunction"!
When I was a young (dumb!) pre-64 Model 70 collector - I thought to myself they have now discontinued this Rifle and I better lay in a supply of firing pin assemblies for future needs.
I bought 7 of them over the next few years.
I still have 7 of them!
I have talked to gunsmiths, competitive shooters and Riflesmiths all across this country and I normally always quietly inquire if they have ever come across a pre-64 Model 70 that had a broken firing pin in it.
None have ever seen a pre-64 Model 70 with a broken firing pin!
I, have never seen a Model 70 with a broken firing pin.
I wish the same could be said for many other brands of Rifles I have owned!
If you want a strongly built, safe, valuable and reliable Rifle (let alone handsome!) then the Riflemans Rifle should be your choice.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

To my way of thinking (mostly) there are two kinds of rifles, the pre64 M70 and a custom built one.

Your search is over. Here is the pin from my pre-64 270. Happened last week:



Best,

Chet

Very well said, and agreed Bob.

I agree buddy. Now I know where to get a firing pin if I ever need one...

varmintguy may be down to 6 by the end of the week...

Your panties are still in a bunch aren't they... You are the classic guy where you right the rest of us are wrong. Yeah you have your fan boys here on 24 hour but you are still a dipshit and whoever takes your line of [bleep] serious is a [bleep] idiot too.. So this Alaskan recommends you take that fine pre 64 and shove it right up your ass.. yeah I await patiently for you regurgitate your typical line of [bleep]...

And leave all to your little circle jerk you have going on here....

My panties are never bunched from clowns like you. Think you are simply little burned that no one pays any attention to what you say. That's not my fault.

After all you're the moron who started this tiff aren't you? because you don't like my opinion right?

There are quite a few people on here that know a lot more than you who tend to agree with me...and likely some who don't. I could GIS less.

Im baiting you and you came running like a hungry dog....you moron. What a sucker LOL!

So tell me 79S....what have I said that you think is wrong? Be precise....if you can follow instructions. Lets hear it.

BTW you can shove all these lovely Classics up your ass as well. I bet thats the only use they ever see.

Come on now...forget the Internet babble about my line of "bullshidt",or general insults, or allegations of circle jerks .....If all you can do is insult, that's not an answer is it? Except in the mind of low-level intellects like you. LMAO.

Tell me what I said that is wrong..... and prove it.

Simple instructions anyone can follow right?

Lets hear it.

If you have the time between loading sessions for your hard charging "good old Alaskan bush heroes " of yours.....who can't load their own ammo. Pathetic.

Mine is accurate, but not very reliable rifle. Quite often when chambering cartridge from fully loaded magazine the bolt just glides over first cartridge without chambering it. That is hard to understand because the action when I bought the gun showed almost no use or signs of bering fired a lot. If I ever had to defend myself against attacking animal chances are better than average I would get injured or killed.

Interesting.

Why don't you get it fixed ?

That the only one you own?

I have 400 cartridges for this gun which is lifetime supply so selling the gun and getting something else just isn't a smart option. I'm going to order new magazine spring. The cost is only $10 plus shipping and taxes. The cartridges seem to go into mag with little resistance which is not what I found with CZ, Sako and Remington I used to own. This is strange because from mechanical standpoint the gun shows no wear with bolt knob showing virtually all of original finish. The only way to wear spring is from lot of loading and unloading just like to break a wire one must work it back and forth.

Sounds like you need a new follower spring. Should be an easy fix.

Ive had the bolt ride over the cartridges with a M70 but it wasn't a pre 64. Classic yes; Weatherby yes, Ruger yes....etc etc.

M70's don't handle escaping gas worth a chit... apart from that, I doubt there's a better hunting rife platform.

My only gripe is the pre-64's bolt, which doesn't clear low-mounted scopes well... but a little scalloping and a re-blue cures that.

Bob,

I have never even been able to get a pre-'64's safety to "jam" in the middle position, locking up the action, as was reported happening with some of the Classics a few years ago. The instance that started it all was a buffalo hunt where somebody put the safety of their Classic in the middle position, ready for quick action when following up a wounded bull. When a charge occurred, the bolt handle had inadvertently raised very slightly, and the safety couldn't be pushed forward--and the rifle couldn't be fired.

After that report, I checked the safeties of several Model 70's, and could NOT get the same thing to happen with pre-'64's, but could with a couple of Classics. I also asked a couple of friends to check their pre-64's and they couldn't make it happen either. That doesn't mean it can't happen, but I haven't heard of a pre-'64 where it does.

D'Arcy Echols found a fix for the problem when it occurs in the Classics, which he's been using on all Legends since.

That's good info JB.

Years ago the trigger "nose" broke off my transition .270 putting the gun out of service. Fortunately it happened at the range. Other than that no problems with my Pre 64s. --- Mel

True on both accounts, however how often do you hear about the first problem. I've never experienced it and I hope it never happens. The second point is well taken, as I've heard about guys grinding on bolt handles. My wife's uncle being one of them. Damn guy ground on the bolt handle of a nice original 338 win magnum!!!!!! This makes me cringe, as it's something I will never do. Period!! I'm perfectly content with running Leupold DD lows or Talley lightweight lows (minimum height rings) on my rifles. No problems whatsoever and really no need for the extra lows:

270 fwt:


30-06 fwt:



338 win mag I sold to Eric M.:


Talley lightweight lows on my "elk" rifle:


I think I just got damn lucky huh Brad.. Never needed a set of extra lows on any rifle......

speaking of grinding bolt handels, I bought a nice pre64 7MM carbine where someone cut the bolt knob in half and then checkered it! My smith fixed the problem and you can't tell it was ever done.

Damn, good on your smith. Cutting or grinding on a pre 64 model 70 bolt handle is sacrilege as far as I'm concerned. Unless it's done for a custom like some of the Biesens etc...

Back in the day they were $150.00 guns....

Back in the "day", you could whip someone's azz for lesser too and not get into any trouble. But that was back in the day. Not now days...

Pre 64 bolt handles aren't the problem.....the scopes are what got fatter.

You can hardly mount a scope lower than an older Leopold or Weaver in Weaver bases and low rings.

But no one uses that outfit anymore.....it's too practical and the scopes don't have enough stuff in them.

I use fat scopes and still have no problems with the leupold DD's or talley lightweights.. I hear what you are saying though Bob..

You mean like this?

Back on topic:


Pre 64 model 70 with what Bob was talking about:

?

Yes Sir!

Just like that!

Brad I guess some of us are just a bunch of Neanderthals....

Guilty as charged

BTW, An Edge stocked 270 FWT with 6x36 LRD on top.

I've broken the bolt stop block off the extractor ring on a 308 action, though that was on an across-the-course rifle that had at least 9-10k rounds through it at that time. It locked up the action, but I cleared it, shot an alibi string and carried on for the day.

I've also had a bolt sleeve lock disappear. Easily replaced with wisner parts and peened the retaining pin so it didn't happen again.

Good info free-miner. That's one thing I don't like about the 243 and 308: more parts in there to go wrong..

I can see that stuff happening. Match shooters can abuse stuff in ways ordinary shooters never could.

I had a major malfunction. Apparently you can shoot .308's in a .270. I cant believe these old guns cant handle my stupidity.

Holy cow!!!

Dammit son!

So....how did it handle the escaping gas?


I would not do that again.

Yes, I'm also wondering if the escaping gas came back into the shooters face like it's said to do. Did the bolt handle fly back or did the locking lugs do their job? Bob, this is one of the reasons I don't like that little bastid 308 . It can get inside a damn good rifle and fu ck chit up...

Ouch. I've seen more than a few rifles that have had significant failures, but this pretty much takes the cake. I guess that .30 cal bullet doesn't fit down a .27 cal bore?

That is a doozy of a blow-out... I hope you survived that ok!

Justin

For the back story- I shot a deer along a power line stand on our lease. The deer went down immediately, as I was walking up to the deer, it raised its head and started to try to get up. I reached in my pocket put a round in and pulled the trigger. One heck if an explosion took place and I was standing there holding the buttstock of the rifle, and the barrel and forearm were sticking in the dirt in front of me. I was totally confused/shocked I didnt have any idea of what had happened. The scope was blown off and hit me in the across the bridge of my nose. I had two black eyes,a little bit of bleeding from some shrapnel hitting my face, four pieces of metal removed from my right eye and busted my left ear drum. My youngest son shoots a 308 , My oldest son had given me a .308 bullet he had found in our driveway about a week earlier. I put it in my hunting jacket not thinking anything of it. You can guess what happened from there.

The bolt stayed locked after the explosion, the round made its way down half of the barrel. The explosion was so strong that what looked like liquid brass blew past the bolt shroud into my eye. I am very lucky I wasnt killed, or permanently disfigured. As you can see from the picture the action peeled back like a banana. I consider myself a safe hunter - never climb into or out of the stand with a loaded gun, wear a safety harness, etc. Scary how things can happen so innocently.

Thank god you were not injured more than that. I'm thinking similar results would happen with just about any rifle/action. I may be wrong, but wouldn't want to try it in a tikka or montana to test my theory. Thanks for sharing your story.

Glad you got out with what did, seems it could have been a lot worse.

Was this a custom? I don't see a sight on the barrel and the stock looks a little to nice with finer checkering and subtle pattern difference.

Yes, Thank You for sharing.

Bt8897: Thank goodness you lived through that "human error"!
I would NOT call it "stupidity" it was a lapse in memory more than anything else.
Again thank goodness you are still here!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

bt you were lucky. Could easily have been worse.

See enough of that stuff it will make you think a bit.

That image will stick with me for a while!

Thanks for sharing your "misfortune".

donsm70

Thanks guys, and yes it was in a custom stock and barrel. I have hunted with that gun for the past 30 years. I have the action mounted with the bucks rack. I was extremely lucky.

Have to ask, hunt with only one round in the gun?

Good question. I had three rounds in the gun, after my first shot the deer dropped. I unloaded before getting down from the stand, dropped them in my pocket of my coat.

Its a good lesson for all of us not to get complacent over seemingly insignificant matters. Have you healed up "completely" yet?

I have a constant ringing in my ears which my Dr. said will probably never go away, one tiny piece of metal in my eye that they were not able to remove but I have all of my vision back. Small price to pay for what happened-

Bt8897: I hope you do completely heal up - hearing is hard to repair/replace!
But again thankfully you are still with us.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Well....this was a short and uneventful thread.

Not much to report on pre 64 M70 malfunctions.

I thought it was kind of interesting Bob.

I missed a caribou with my standard model pre64 M70 .270 .......more than once . I hung it up and finished the hunt sharing my buddies Ruger M77. I'm sure it was the rifles fault.

At least your buddy has good taste in rifles. If you would have said Rem 700, that would have been pretty damn disgraceful...

It was pretty dang disgraceful as it was. I had planned to take my .264 Fwt but it kicked the scope loose during the last range session just before we left, so the .270 got the last minute call. Darn unreliable M70s!

That sucks buddy. I can imagine, if your buddy is like mine, he gave you a ration of chit....

Oh he ll yes! What are buddies for?

If that happened to me the question could well apply to a part of my anatomy.

I understand being careful, but wouldn't the bolt being closed on a spent round or empty chamber have covered that aspect for the climb down?

Yes it would. I shot once and chamberd another round. I unloaded the live round and the other in the magazine. I have two kids that hunt now and I stress saftey with them. I cant be much of a role model if I dont do what I stress for them to do. I remember as a kid buck fever can influence your decisions. I would hate if one of them shot a deer and chamberd another round before climbing out of a stand with a loaded gun with the safety off.