And why aren't they more common in the U.S.?

If a guy was looking for one to use, how does he know what to look for?

And who makes a reasonably priced one in 20x20x30-30

If it's the right drilling I believe all three. If it is without good engraving and/or carving then I would leave off high art...but there is art there none the less.

I suppose how common they appear to be in the US to some degree depends on where and with whom you hang out. The old saying "birds of a feather flock together" is quite true when it comes to firearms such as drillings, combination guns and double rifles....and I suppose you could throw German stalking rifles and British single shots in that mix also.

The reasons for not owning a drilling that I hear most often are cost, unfamiliarity with many rifle chamberings, with older ones the 2 1/2 - 2 9/16 shotgun chamber and either the unwillingness to rechamber or ignorance that they can have the chamber cut to 2 3/4, appearance, foreign development, old fashioned in that in the most common configuration many do not care for, side by side shotguns, then stick a rifle barrel beneath the two shotgun barrels, the scope mounting systems and one fallacy I hear very frequently, they aren't accurate.

Your second question, ask, ask, ask, ask and then ask some more then look at all you can. They are a rather sophisticated firearm in the triggers and lock mechanisms but they aren't that difficult to understand. In most the bolting is really pretty straightforward. Beyond that I'll let someone else weigh in with particulars.

Your third question....I truly do not know but you might need to qualify reasonably priced. While neither the 20 nor the 30 WCF would be a choice of mine.....that would make one dandy combination for the US.

Is a Drilling High Art/Science or a Hunter's Arm?

Most firearms can be classified as High Art and/or a Hunter's Arm.
They aren't high science. I hunted for a while in Germany where the Drilling is very much a Hunter's Arm. Owning a drilling can make a hunter a 1 weapon man! 1 high powered rifle, 1 small caliber (The Einstecklauf) and 2 shotgun calibers. From there, the hunter needs 2-3 scopes which are easily removed for different applications. Night Hunting, Day Hunting & Drive Hunting. This makes a German hunter's life easier by only having/needing 1 weapon to get used to & 1 weapon to register on his Gun card.


And why aren't they more common in the U.S.?
They are usually German and are common over there. It's a German thing mostly. Same as why HK, Heym, Blaser, Steyr etc are not very common here. In Germany, a Marlin lever action 45-70 gets a lot of Oooh's and Ahhh's at the Jagd Hutte or at a drive hunt. Why? Because they are not common.

If a guy was looking for one to use, how does he know what to look for?
I would look for a modern Drilling w/an existing scope and mounts. Make sure it is of a caliber that can be reloaded for easily and brass or cartridges can be found easily. Do research, read some German Drilling articles...(Use Google Translate).

Reasonable prices for drillings are not reasonable to normal American firearm standards. Keep in mind, you're getting 3 guns for the price of one (If you get the Einstecklauf). They are expensive in Europe also, just a lot more common.

7x64,

Very good post.

I might also add that typical German factory guns are of higher quality than typical American factory guns. This is partly because of the German quest for perfection, but also because in Germany only 1/2 of 1% of the people hunt--and they tend to be high-income. They expect very well-functioning firearms, and thus ev en an average German gun is more like a custom or very high-grade factory gun in the U.S.

A good example would be my Heym SR-21 bolt-action .300 Winchester Magnum. Not only does it have relatively fancy wood, but the bedding, barrel, trigger and everything else are what Americans would expect im a custom rifle. It will consistently shoot 3-shot groups with all three shots touching with several handloads--and some factory loads.

When I purchased it the retail price was around $2000. Americans will spend twice that on a "custom" rifle based on a Remington 700 action, with an aftermarket barrel and synthetic stock, and be ecstatic with the same level of accuracy.

It seems that the rifle barrels on most drillings are chambered for rimmed cartridges. Only occasionally do I see one mentioned that uses a rimless cartridge.
Is this by preference of those who use them the most, or is it a technical issue that makes the use of rimless cartridges less common?

I'm only asking because i believe that a 20x20x.243 might sell in missouri...

Mechanically, it's far easier to construct an extractor for rimmed rounds in any break-action firearm (or a falling-block single-shot). The extractor contacts the rim directly and slides into the rear of the barrel alongside the cartridge's rim.

With a rimless round, the extractor has to slide sideways a little as the rifle is closed. This is a trickier to manage, but not anywhere near impossible.

I've owned several break-action, falling-block rifles and combination guns chambered for rimless rounds, and rarely had a failure to extract. But it does happens on occasion, usually due to some fault in the timing or spring strength of the extractor.

There's no reason not to have a drilling in any rimless round, except perhaps the simplicity of a rimmed round's extractors costing less.

Any break action gun is simpler and functions much more reliably with a rimmed cartridge compared to rimless. I have tried rimless cartridges in a a couple of break action rifles, but much prefer rimmed cartridges because they just work better.

Well, I had to look...

And I spotted a dandy little 28X28X.22Hornet that really does it for me!!!

But I'm guessing that the "one time only low, low price" of only $58,000.00 puts it in the "high art" category...

It seems that JP Sauer makes more drillings with rimless rifle chambering than others. And many of them seem reasonably priced...

Thinking that if I found the right combo, I might be interested...

I really cannot think of a good mecahnical reason to prefer a rimless cartridge over a rimmed cartridge for any break action firearm. Rimmed works first time every time and there is no ballistics advantage except in the fewest of cases. However, if rimless floats your boat then that's what a fella ought to have.

Until one sees the price of that 28 X Hornet drilling it is quite an appealing combination. A bit limited but certainly appealing.

For several years I owned a Sauer 3000 12x12/.30-06, because that's what I considered the ideal travel firearm. Either shotgun or rifle ammunition could be found just about anywhere ammo can be found, just in case I ended up on some trip in the back of beyond without my own supply.

But that would be the only rational reason I can think of for owning a drilling chambered for a rimless rifle round.

John,

Earlier on another post, the question was posed, why the RUM family of rounds wasn't seen in the Ruger #1. There were a lot of reasons given, but the extractor issue may be key. As you said, the rimmed rounds are ideal for a SS, although with some engineering, an extractor for a rimless case can be crafted. For rebated rounds, like the .284 family and the RUMs, I think it would be even more difficult to make a suitable extractor.

Maybe that's why rebated rounds aren't seen in SS's. At least I've not seen any so configured.

DF

Thanks Sir! Coming from you that means a lot.

I'll add that in Germany, hunting is more of a fraternal thing and not considered a sport. It is a way of life and once you become a hunter, you are usually clad in OD green attire and even your vehicle is some sort of green. Jagdproofing/Hunting lessons are very expensive and take over 1 year to complete (Once you turn 18 and have passed several background checks, medical checks etc etc). Hunters are like game wardens for their respective revier's. If you want a revier, expect to pay 10-25 thousand Euro per year for the rights to hunt on a revier. Those rights come with responsibilities to include keeping crop damage down. Pigs tear up a hybrid corn used for Ethanol? The Jagd Pacter/Hunting rights owner has to pay the damages. I've seen reviers owe $10-$15K each year in crop damages alone. That does not include the annual bill to the local town council.

All in all, hunting is typically a wealthy man's sport. As a US Servicemember in Europe, I took advantage of the program set in place back in the mid 1950's that offers a condensed hunting course and at a small fee of $250 plus the $500 license, $150 gun card, $50 background check, $200 range fees, $180 hunting insurance... Hmmm, 19% Value added tax for weapons & The wardrobe of OD green clothing needed. Show up at a German drive hunt Realtree'd out and they may ask you to leave... You learn a special German hunting language, learn the handshake, greetings etc etc. It's kinda cool but cheap it is not. Most German hunters are wealthy except for the odd US troops who have been able to slide in under the agreement made in the 50's. It's nothing to see one of them show up to a gunsmith/gunshop and drop several thousand on a rifle, then several thousand on a new Schmidt & Bender, then 500 Euro on scope mounts, etc etc etc.

If you wound an animal/miss one etc you will be made to go to the range and requalify with that weapon. Usually, the rangemaster knows the Jagd Pacter/Hunting Rights owner and they call to confirm that 1.Your rifle is in good shape 2. The scope is sighted 3. You can hit the target. If all is on the up and up... You may be relegated to shooting badgers and fox for a while.

I'd sell my 7X65R Simson Drilling in a heartbeat if I could find a good 30-06 Drilling. The man I purchased mine from had an Italian Zoli Drilling in 12x12/30-06 and I couldn't get him to sell it to me. I bought the Simson and I'm happy with it but, there is something to be said about the ease of buying a box of Ammo just about anywhere in the world. I travel a lot, my job keeps me in harms way in the dark corners of the world most of the time. So, some simplicity in my life is nice!

So then...

If a guy wants a drilling to use in the U.S., what might be a good rimmed cartridge that would match the utility of a .243 or a BOB...

Is there a 6.35x57R?

You will be hard pressed to find a lot of medium sized game cartridges in drillings that are smaller than 6.5mm. German hunting laws require the use of 6.5 or larger for Hochwild (Boar, Stag, Etc etc) Some guys use smaller calibers for Gamz/Chamois and Roe Deer. Still, it kind of limits the Drilling's "1 firearm for everything" role because they are limited to what they are able to hunt with smaller calibers. Since many many seasons overlap, a German hunter could be presented with several different types of game and if he is holding a 224 through 6mm centerfire...He can't legally take the shot if a nice Red Deer or Boar comes along.


5.6X57R
6.5X57R
6x62R Freres
7X57R

I've seen a BBF or two in 243.

You see them occasionally in 6.5 X 57 and for what you describe that would be an excellent cartridge. There is nothing wrong with the 7 X 57R either. With all the magnumitis out there today many, many very good cartridges have lost popularity...and a lot of those shooting magnums should be shooting those old rounds.

Yep 6.5's have been my latest "must have" item...
I love my 7X57R BBF, it's a sweet combo.

"Must have"....that's a lot like lust isn't it? I'm feeling a little dirty...unfaithful...to my drillings and combination guns but I'm "lusting" for a 6.5 X 54 in an early Mannlicher/Schoenauer...full stock with set triggers and I'd like it without scope mounts.

haha... I guess you could say that.

There is a wonderful 6.5X57R that Mule Deer and I shoot. It is much like A 257 Roberts, but being a .264. I buy ammo for it for around $20.00/box. The S&B 131gr factory ammo seems to regulate well.

Drillings aren't range-toys; they're serious hunting tools. You wouldn't want to sit at a bench and let 100-200 rounds fly every weekend. You would wear the gun out in short order.

To answer the original question - A drilling is BOTH. It is an artful, scientific hunters arm.
I have come to appreciate the German hunters approach to firearms. They typically use the very best equipment that they can afford, not like in North America where a hunting arm is typically mass marketed to the lowest bidder and just needs to be "good enough".
My good friend in Germany is a forester for the city of Cologne. Following their tradition, he purchased a Suhl drilling as soon as he graduated from his apprenticeship. It cost him several months wages, a major sacrifice and investment for a young man getting started. Since then, he has used it professionally for problem animal control work and "cropping", and while hunting for his own enjoyment. It is a 12/12 7x65R with .22H insert. Although his drilling does show a lot of wear from years of constant use, he will never wear it out, because it was built correctly from the start. Over the years he has replaced the scope, and had the locks cleaned and triggers adjusted, and that's it. His old gun still looks like a work of art too.
His inspiration is why I have several German drillings and BBF's.
Functional art.

I have considered the issue, and figured that both the turnbolt rifle, and the repeating shotgun can be built to good quality and craftsmanship standards on a more affordable basis as stand alone arms.

Still... I'm an hour away from Simpson LTD, in Galesburg...
Couldn't hurt to look... Right?

If I were that close I would go just to see the place. It appears they have a huge inventory.

Wow, they do. They have a nice 6.5X68 Mauser there that was made by a great gunsmith in Germany.

7x64,

Was gone for a couple of days on a business trip, or would have replied sooner.

About 20 years ago I spent enough time in Germany and the Czech Republic on a hunt and factory tour to get a feeling for the hunting over there--both the relative wealth required to hunt, and the traditions. I liked the traditions, but am too much of an American who grew up hunting for free to appreciate the wealth required--even though I've spent a considerable amount on hunting myself over the decades.

I looked for a 12x12x.30-06 drilling for several years before finding TWO on week on the Internet, one a Sauer and one a Krieghoff. At $5000, the Sauer was more affordable so I bought it....

I called Simpson LTD today, and they just received another shipment of guns.

And they sell a lot more than just drillings and combo guns, but the guy I talked to said there were a number of drillings in the latest bunch to arrive...

Yep, they sold the inexpensive BRNO/CZ Combo gun that I wanted. I want to give one to my brother. They do have one that's 12 over 22 Savage. Kinda cool but I want a 7x57R

john, are they listed on their web site yet? You better just go over there and take your wallet with you. Yes, they have one whale of an inventory. I keep watching for a good buy on an early, full stock Mannlicher-Schoenaur with hopefully no scope bases. A fine, early German 22RF would be nice also.

Sounds like 7x64 and I did the same program in Germany. It was truely an experience to see the drilling in the field and the craftman's work that went into one.

I've got three of the BRNO/CZ 502 series, all 12 gauge over rifle.

One is a 12/30-06
One is 12/308
Last one is 12/7.65R with O/U 12 gauge set and Briley choked.

Sounds like Simpson's is the place to watch for reasonable drilling buys.

I think i recall that the new stuff was not cataloged yet.

Hello 7x74!
I agree with your description of the German culture of hunting. But it seems, that you met some weird German hunters. Its not common practice to send somebody away because he wears some strange looking clothes. And it is not common - and more than arrogant - to relegate somebody to shoot badgers and foxes.
In the 1950 years until 1974 my father was a "Jagdpachter" of a hunting ground 100 kilometers north of Frankfurt and we hunted together with some American army officers. I think for my father the hunting together with these American officers/hunters was the attempt to reach the hand to the former enemy. Anyway, we had much fun with them, they were nice guys and very good shots. They showed us cartridges like the 22 Hornet, 222 Remington or 270 Winchester ("You really can shoot an elk with this tiny 130grs bullet?" - "Yes."). We had discussions about drillings and selfloading rifles, about German and American cartridges and hunting weapons - besides barbecue and duck hunting. These times belong to my best memories of my youth and I m sorry that you met these very "special" hunters. They are not typical for German hunters, believe me.