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#1570338 - 07/29/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 2muchgun]
Coyotejunki Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 922
Loc: USA
I'm a bit puzzled.

I have been thinking of buying a few of Stiller's actions for some custom hunting/varmint rigs. If the tolerances are not what I might expect for the price paid for these actions, why not just buy Rem 700 actions and use them. Save the money for better scopes.

If I am spending the money for tighter tolerances, I want what I paid for.

I'll wait to read Mr. Stiller's responces, so I can read both sides.
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#1570571 - 07/29/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: Coyotejunki]
300MAG Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 5570
Loc: PITTSBURGH, PA
Coyotejunki,

I feel the same way- we'll just have to wait for Mr. Stiller to reply!!

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#1570583 - 07/29/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 300MAG]
Turk1961 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/30/02
Posts: 753
Loc: Texas
As I understand it, Stillerís goal in producing the Predator was to offer the market a choice for an accurate hunting rifle. Stiller has several bench rest actions and was not trying to build a cheaper BR action. The Predator is priced little more than where you would be if you purchased a NEW Rem 700 action and had it trued, timed, boring the raceway and sleeves on the bolt with the work done by a good smith.

I have no doubt that Mr. Kampfeld could take an average Rem 700, do the above work and have it tighter and as true or truer than the average Predator. I also doubt that the average Rem 700 is tighter and truer that any Predator. Donít assume that I donít like Remington rifles. At this time I have six center fire Remington rifles. They include 700, 600, 660 and a 788. None feel as tight as my two Predators. Also donít assume that the average smith could match Mr. Kampfeldís skill. I know that there are none within an hours drive of where I live that could.

Of course all of my Remingtons are used and have been exposed to the rain, dust and mud. And I am sure they have loosened up some over the years. However the 600 and 660 were built by national known smiths, trued and slicked up but not sleeved. These two custom guns are not as smooth as my Predators. My Predators have not been out in the weather. Only one is a complete gun and has been hunted only 18 total days.

But had the weather turned bad with wind blown sand, I have no doubt my Predator would still work as it was built to take a little grit and keep working. Where a tighter action would jam. Guys, that it what Mr. Stiller is building and selling. A hunting action that it very accurate and will handle hunting conditions without jamming.

I that is what I bought. TWICE!!!

One other point, very few custom guns will recover their cost when you sell them. A custom build on a Predator will bring more of itís original cost than a reworked 700.
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#1570610 - 07/29/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: greydog]
kampfeld Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/06
Posts: 110
Loc: Southeastern Michigan
 Originally Posted By: greydog
Mr. Kampfeld,
Just to satisfy my own curiosity; did you check further to see if the divergence in the bolt face from the receiver face was the fault of the bolt, the receiver, or both? When you measure to the bolt face, is the action cocked or is the bolt stripped?
I have to say, I think .010 tolerance for the bolt to receiver fit is a bit much for a custom action. GD


When I measured the bolt face, I did it with a stripped bolt, just like the Remington's that I checked. I did measure from the action face to the bolt lug seats on the Stiller, and could measure no difference from one to the other. So, whatever I'm measuring on the bolt face must be coming from the bolt or the bolt raceway. When measuring, I'm holding the action vertically, trying to let the bolt hang neutral. I have noticed that because of the .010 difference in the bolt to raceway, getting measurements that repeat was tough. One time I would get .001 difference across the bolt face, I've give the bolt a little wiggle and the next time it'd be about .0006.

Like I stated at the start of this post, I just think Borden Timberline and Alpine are a better value. I haven't seen either one of those action with bolt binding issues, even with tighter tolerances than the Predator. JMHO.

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#1570695 - 07/29/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: Turk1961]
2muchgun Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 13940
Loc: Michigun
Good answer, and exactly what I was trying to imply in fewer words, except for possibly the resale thing. I feel if the name of a well known, highly respected smith is attached to a trued/sleeved/ 700 action, it could bring just as much from someone who feels the way I do about their work.......

Karl---back to work man, I'm chompin' at the bit here..........grin
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#1570945 - 07/29/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 2muchgun]
Boss Hoss Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 2614
Loc: DFW
Speedy has measured over 50 that he built and he did not get anywhere close to the results of Karl so we will wait for Jerry to get back. This could be interesting to say the least.
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#1570969 - 07/29/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: Boss Hoss]
2muchgun Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 13940
Loc: Michigun
Oh schitt,.........here we go......grin
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#1570970 - 07/29/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: Boss Hoss]
SAKO75 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/25/03
Posts: 4568
Loc: C.S.A.
MAYBE WE CAN START CALLING THE PRADATOR A "SUCKS PART 2"????
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#1571250 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: SAKO75]
Mntngoat Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/27/02
Posts: 2128
Loc: Kalifornia
my predator in .243AI rings steel at 200-300 yards with no problems it's more than accurate enough for a hunting rifle.

Michael
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#1571382 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: Mntngoat]
Boss Hoss Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 2614
Loc: DFW
I know folks who compete with one (single shot) at 1K in the BR game and do very well -- I will let Jerry post the details but there is not really much difference in the tolerances between the Predator and the Python for example. When Jerry gets back in and gets caught up a little we will ear from him.
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#1571397 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: Boss Hoss]
2muchgun Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 13940
Loc: Michigun
I'm all hears....

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#1571419 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 2muchgun]
BMD Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 4231
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: 2muchgun
Good answer, and exactly what I was trying to imply in fewer words, except for possibly the resale thing. I feel if the name of a well known, highly respected smith is attached to a trued/sleeved/ 700 action, it could bring just as much from someone who feels the way I do about their work.......

Karl---back to work man, I'm chompin' at the bit here..........grin
You too HUH?
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#1571465 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: BMD]
2muchgun Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 13940
Loc: Michigun
I envy Karl. Would love to have his job, working out of my own house with my own shop and all. He has a nice set-up. Too bad I don't have his skills.....

Poor guy's too busy to get any shootin' in, though.....

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#1571477 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 2muchgun]
BMD Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 4231
Loc: Texas
Got it good for sure it sounds like, but he is definitely busy, Might have to drive up there one day and hand deliver one of my next two, I just cant wait to get the one he has back. I am sure he will squeeze in a little huntin time.
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#1571482 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: BMD]
2muchgun Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 13940
Loc: Michigun
He don't have to go far to do it. Right out his back door would work. He lives in big buck country. You'd be highly impressed with the whitetails mounted on his wall......
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#1571496 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 2muchgun]
BMD Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 4231
Loc: Texas
I would like to come up there just to see something different than Texas, I dont get out the state too much and have never been up North, so I can see a road trip in the future just to get away and see that part of the country if nothing else. I have a buddy that is a taxidermist that works out his back door as well and we hang out over there a bs about hunting every day it is another job that would be great if I had the skills for it.
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#1571536 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: BMD]
2muchgun Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 13940
Loc: Michigun
I'm a carpenter, and I have a pretty nice set-up in my garage. I love it when I'm able to work right here in my little "shop".....
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#1572973 - 07/30/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: BMD]
300MAG Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 5570
Loc: PITTSBURGH, PA
Still waiting to hear the scoop!!

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#1573818 - 07/31/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 300MAG]
Al_Nyhus Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 900
Loc: Lower Dakota Territory
 Originally Posted By: 300MAG
Still waiting to hear the scoop!!


300MAG: What clearances does your Predator action have? -Al
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#1574598 - 07/31/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: Al_Nyhus]
300MAG Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 5570
Loc: PITTSBURGH, PA
Al,

I am not a gunsmith so I have no idea?? I don't have the action either, it is at LSR - he is making the rifle for me.

I am just curious to see what Mr. Stiller has to say about some of these comments on here.

I just couldn't believe that a custom action was only as square as a factory 700??

This is my first custom being built, and I wanted the best I could get with my budget, so I have some concerns now - thats all - Not stirring the pot, just concerned!!!!

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#1576147 - 08/01/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 300MAG]
Al_Nyhus Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 900
Loc: Lower Dakota Territory
 Originally Posted By: 300MAG
Al,

I am not a gunsmith so I have no idea?? I don't have the action either, it is at LSR - he is making the rifle for me.

I just couldn't believe that a custom action was only as square as a factory 700??

This is my first custom being built, and I wanted the best I could get with my budget, so I have some concerns now - thats all - Not stirring the pot, just concerned!!!!


Why not simply have your 'smith check your action and then you'll know for sure?

We use some short, precision ground tool steel round slugs in .0005 (half thousandths) increments to check the reciever i.d. Just check for fit in the reciever at the front and rear bearing sufaces, then mic. the bolt body at the same place and you have your bolt/reciever clearance. Takes about 5 minutes. And checking the reciever face and bolt face for squareness takes all of about 10 minutes time.

So, in about 15 minutes time you'll know where your at with your reciever.

Which, to me, seems like a better situation than getting people all worked up over what's probably a non-issue with a good product from a fine company. -Al
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#1576160 - 08/01/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: 300MAG]
stiller Offline
Member

Registered: 12/14/04
Posts: 41
Man, I am gone a week and all hell breaks loose. I am not sure where the Predator having looser tolerances than a Remington came from, but I can insure you that is not the case. The bolt to raceway fit should be .0035 to .0055. Unless someone has buffed off the armoloy or done something to an action, .010 should never occur. IF that is the case and it is unaltered, I will take care of it. Maybe the wire cut oversize or something and it wasnt caught, but that should never happen. As for the TOLERANCES, they are basically the same as the benchrest action. That does not mean the CLEARANCES are though. Different thing all together. The Predator has more bolt clearance on purpose. That way a little grit wont cause bolt lockup or galling. As for square, the boltface is in the .0002 perpendicularity as is the front of the action to its bolt hole. The headspace is usually within .001, but may go to .002. The Predator is a very good action and built the same way our benchrest series actions are. It has the added feature of the anti-bind rail to make it smoother crossing the port the with the bolt clearances that it has, a feature that not many of my competitors have. I could build the bolt with a .001 clearance like our benchrest actions have or some of my competitors. When you are looking down the scope at that big royal elk and get a piece of grit or leaf in the bolt and miss the shot, you would probably be really cussing me though. In all the actions we have built into rifles, we havent really seen any difference in accuracy with bolt fits in the .006 or less range. The tighter fits on the benchrest actions make them smoother etc, but may or may not really help accuracy. I had to admit it, but some of the best shooting guns I have seen on the line at a benchrest match may be an old worn out Panda with more bolt clearance then anyone cares to admit to. That being said, I still prefer you buy a Viper over a Panda ;\)

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#1576191 - 08/01/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: stiller]
OutdoorAg Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 1546
Loc: Texas
Question, meet Answer.

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#1576192 - 08/01/07 Re: Predator/Timberline actions? [Re: stiller]
300MAG Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/23/06
Posts: 5570
Loc: PITTSBURGH, PA
Thanks for the reply Mr. Stiller!!

I bought your Predator action because I am having Chris Mathews build me a hunting rifle - the clearances are a little more forgiving, but still have tight manufacturing tolerances-seems like you posted what I wanted to hear!!

As far a being less square than a Rem 700 - you'll have to ask the poster - he may have an action or two that needs to come back you??


Edited by 300MAG (08/01/07)

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